Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On 10.09.2014 04:37, Paul Wise wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Markus Koschany wrote: Creating a games-all metapackage would be easily doable As someone who has been trying to maintain a system (rather than metapackage) that is basically that (plus a bunch of games removed from Debian), I don't think it is actually that easy. [...] I did a combination of all the approaches you mentioned later. I might be missing something but I think those problems are already solved since now we have 26 dedicated games-* metapackages. If you install all of them you will get _all_ games in Debian main. If there is still a game missing, that's a bug. I understand that »games-all« would save some time and installation work but installing all games with the current set of metapackages isn't difficult either. Regards, Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
Hi Thomas, thanks for caring for this topic. On Mon, Sep 08, 2014 at 11:15:48PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: ... So, with what you're proposing, we'll have something like this: │[*] Desktop environment │ │[*] ... Xfce│ │[ ] ... GNOME │ │[ ] ... KDE │ │[ ] Debian pure blends │ │[ ] ... Debian Edu │ │[ ] ... Debian Med │ [ ] ... Biology [ ] ... Medical imaging [ ] ... Medical practice ... │[ ] ... DebiChem│ [ ] ... Ab inito [ ] ... Crystallography [ ] ... Molecular modelling ... │[ ] Openstack │ │[ ] ... Compute Node│ │[ ] ... Proxy Node │ This looks awesome already, a way better than what we had before. +1 With the additional hint that Blends consists of a set of tasks which usually can selected separately and in several (if not most) practical cases it does not make sense to install them all at once. Kind regards Andreas. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2014/09/msg00206.html [2] https://wiki.debian.org/tasksel/MoreTasks -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140909124447.gi9...@an3as.eu
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On 09.09.2014 00:19, Paul Wise wrote: On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Rebecca Palmer wrote: Someone already proposed, in the wiki, to add Games. I like the idea a lot, and it perfectly makes sense to select all games at once. That was me. We don't yet have a games-all metapackage in the games blend, games-finest is probably a good alternative for now. Creating a games-all metapackage would be easily doable but I wonder if there was a more elegant way to solve this problem and if we could avoid the creation of meta-metapackages. I could imagine another check box in tasksel for instance. If checked all separate installable games-* tasks for users would be selected and all tasks for developers and artists, the -dev packages, would be excluded. You might want to check the download size it would have first: some game data packages are _big_ (~1GB for flightgear, ~400MB each for openarena and wesnoth, ~7.5GB total for the games-finest collection). Good point, tasksel needs some indicator of sizes. Indeed that would be a neat feature. In the meantime you might also want to try »games-finest-light« which installs smaller and less hardware demanding games although it's still ~2.5GB. Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Markus Koschany wrote: Creating a games-all metapackage would be easily doable As someone who has been trying to maintain a system (rather than metapackage) that is basically that (plus a bunch of games removed from Debian), I don't think it is actually that easy. You could do it based on sections but there are things in the games section that aren't really games and there are things in other sections that are games. You could do it based on debtags but I don't think every game is debtagged. You could do it based on files in /usr/games but not every game uses that. You could do it based on a combination of these things but there are a number of game variants/versions, some of which conflict with each other. At the end of the day it would have to be a curated list like all the games-* metapackages, possibly mostly based on the above things. there was a more elegant way to solve this problem and if we could avoid the creation of meta-metapackages. I could imagine another check box in tasksel for instance. If checked all separate installable games-* tasks for users would be selected and all tasks for developers and artists, the -dev packages, would be excluded. That does sound interesting, but personally I would want a games-all metapackage to exist. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6FHUtvMZL63m_ZPq=acncshygleh5bxcw5xsxtubta...@mail.gmail.com
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
Opening a new thread, trying to sum-up what's been said. sum-up It's looking like some of the options are confusing for both advanced users and newbies. The technologies behind the tasks are hidden, and there's no obvious way to know what will happen (other than looking at the package source of tasksel in debian/control). For example: - database-server: commonly one would expect MySQL, and postgress gets installed - file-server: samba NFS will get installed. One may have expect other technologies like own-cloud or such. Only a few of the current tasks are helpful for the general use case: - Desktop environment - ssh-server - print-server (as there's anyway only cups that would do the job) So, the current tasks seem to be not appropriate, or at least, would benefits of some improvements. It seems Joey Hess already took some action about it [1]: Most of the server tasks were not well enough defined or useful and so were removed. I kept ssh-server, print-server, and web-server. So this goes in line with what has been said in debian-devel already, and I believe it goes in the right direction. All that being said, I still think we should discuss what task to put in the default tasksel instead. /sum-up Now for my own opinion. Joey, will you as well remove the SQL Database option? Or at least rename it as SQL Database (postgress) so that it's more explicit? More generally, it is my opinion that both the SQL Database and Web server tasks (which respectively install only Postgress and Apache) aren't very useful, and are doing exactly the thing which you said we shouldn't do: select a single package with a task. It's not addressing newbies need, neither experts, IMO. So, with what you're proposing, we'll have something like this: │[*] Desktop environment │ │[*] ... Xfce│ │[ ] ... GNOME │ │[ ] ... KDE │ │[ ] Debian pure blends │ │[ ] ... Debian Edu │ │[ ] ... Debian Med │ │[ ] ... DebiChem│ │[ ] Openstack │ │[ ] ... Compute Node│ │[ ] ... Proxy Node │ This looks awesome already, a way better than what we had before. Not only this provides real choices to the user, but also suggest usage features which some of our users may have missed. Someone already proposed, in the wiki, to add Games. I like the idea a lot, and it perfectly makes sense to select all games at once. Note that on the wiki page [2], some contributors already proposed to add some individual packages, like VirtualBox. This is not the role of tasksel to select a single package, so I removed it. Someone proposed to add some improvements to the GUI of the task selection dialogue. This is unfortunately out of the scope of this discussion (as this would mean improving debconf itself, or using something else than debconf for tasksel), therefore, I removed these lines from the page. But do not mistake on my intention: I believe everyone would like to see this kind of GUI improvement in Tasksel. Just do it (tm) and provide the patch if you can, rather than just discussing it which doesn't help. To the contrary, discussing the tasks themselves is helpful, because they are easy to modify. I'm sure someone will reply to this thread with more nice ideas to improve it even more. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2014/09/msg00206.html [2] https://wiki.debian.org/tasksel/MoreTasks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/540dc824.20...@debian.org
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
Hi, So, with what you're proposing, we'll have something like this: │[*] Desktop environment │ │[*] ... Xfce│ │[ ] ... GNOME │ │[ ] ... KDE │ │[ ] Debian pure blends │ │[ ] ... Debian Edu │ │[ ] ... Debian Med │ │[ ] ... DebiChem│ │[ ] Openstack │ │[ ] ... Compute Node│ │[ ] ... Proxy Node │ This looks awesome already, a way better than what we had before. Not only this provides real choices to the user, but also suggest usage features which some of our users may have missed. Someone already proposed, in the wiki, to add Games. I like the idea a lot, and it perfectly makes sense to select all games at once. I agree, this is a great improvement. I wonder though whether it is justified to add SSH again? It is of course just a single package being dragged in, but it is special in the sense that it's often used to provide the very access to the machine. Installing SSH already during system installation avoids the need of ever logging in usually. Kind regards Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/540dde11.7090...@ralfj.de
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
Someone already proposed, in the wiki, to add Games. I like the idea a lot, and it perfectly makes sense to select all games at once. You might want to check the download size it would have first: some game data packages are _big_ (~1GB for flightgear, ~400MB each for openarena and wesnoth, ~7.5GB total for the games-finest collection). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/540ddfef.80...@zoho.com
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Sep 08, Ralf Jung p...@ralfj.de wrote: I agree, this is a great improvement. I wonder though whether it is justified to add SSH again? It is of course just a single package being dragged in, but it is special in the sense that it's often used to provide the very access to the machine. Installing SSH already during system installation avoids the need of ever logging in usually. Agreed. It is very useful to have a working sshd on a new system without having to use the console again to install it. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Marco d'Itri m...@linux.it wrote: Agreed. It is very useful to have a working sshd on a new system without having to use the console again to install it. This sounds like an acceptable default for a server installation, but for desktops maybe not so much. Is it possible to keep the d-i menu clean and intuitive while wrapping options for both server and desktop tasks into a single interface? I'm trying to sketch out some designs where the desktop or server selection is abstracted one menu layer up as to keep tasks presented to the user relative to their desired installation target (desktop/server). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFk_FdgMWiDZXac29CmfdjG98yN69E=yqdqxhawgwpmdacz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Rebecca Palmer wrote: Someone already proposed, in the wiki, to add Games. I like the idea a lot, and it perfectly makes sense to select all games at once. That was me. We don't yet have a games-all metapackage in the games blend, games-finest is probably a good alternative for now. You might want to check the download size it would have first: some game data packages are _big_ (~1GB for flightgear, ~400MB each for openarena and wesnoth, ~7.5GB total for the games-finest collection). Good point, tasksel needs some indicator of sizes. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6HxAR8V3aObgPLvJT4viSg1OinxNQ9LuaCO=+vojke...@mail.gmail.com
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: sum-up It's looking like some of the options are confusing for both advanced users and newbies. The technologies behind the tasks are hidden, and there's no obvious way to know what will happen (other than looking at the package source of tasksel in debian/control). For example: - database-server: commonly one would expect MySQL, and postgress gets installed Isn't tasksel for people with no expectations? People who know something about the technology they are looking for will install the relevant packages instead of following tasksel recommendations. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caktje6fphbe1rz9sces6nwhrc-tpdocouptxmw0gdpup1zl...@mail.gmail.com
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Sep 09, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: Isn't tasksel for people with no expectations? People who know something about the technology they are looking for will install the relevant packages instead of following tasksel recommendations. Tasksel is not about recommendations: its purpose is to easily install a complex set of related packages. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: - database-server: commonly one would expect MySQL, and postgress gets installed [Paul Wise] Isn't tasksel for people with no expectations? People who know something about the technology they are looking for will install the relevant packages instead of following tasksel recommendations. Yeah but in what possible world would anybody want a database server but not care which DBMS it is? I mean, on the basic level of MySQL vs. Postgres, not which fork of mysql is cool this week. I just can't fathom the use case for this particular task. Yes, there are cases where you need a DBMS but you don't have an opinion, but I suspect in that case what you need the DBMS for is some other package, which then Depends: or Recommends: on a suitable DB engine. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140908230757.ga3...@p12n.org
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
Paul Wise p...@debian.org writes: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: sum-up It's looking like some of the options are confusing for both advanced users and newbies. The technologies behind the tasks are hidden, and there's no obvious way to know what will happen (other than looking at the package source of tasksel in debian/control). For example: - database-server: commonly one would expect MySQL, and postgress gets installed Isn't tasksel for people with no expectations? People who know something about the technology they are looking for will install the relevant packages instead of following tasksel recommendations. Yes, and that's the problem. People with no expectations aren't going to install a database server directly (for one thing, there's no standardized way to interact with the server; you have to know at least basic connection information that depends on the type). People with expectations are going to immediately ask but *which* database server? It's not like a mail server, where one can sort of assume you want SMTP in and POP/IMAP out. A task like MySQL database server would make sense, but at that point it's not clear what you gain over just installing mysql-server. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87bnqpwovn@hope.eyrie.org
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On 09/09/2014 02:45 AM, Marco d'Itri wrote: On Sep 08, Ralf Jung p...@ralfj.de wrote: I agree, this is a great improvement. I wonder though whether it is justified to add SSH again? It is of course just a single package being dragged in, but it is special in the sense that it's often used to provide the very access to the machine. Installing SSH already during system installation avoids the need of ever logging in usually. Agreed. It is very useful to have a working sshd on a new system without having to use the console again to install it. I haven't checked, but I trust Joey's sanity, and I don't think sshd has been removed! :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/540e5c47.9010...@debian.org
Re: More tasks option in Tasksel: what tasks do you want there? (reloaded)
On 09/09/2014 06:21 AM, Paul Wise wrote: On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: sum-up It's looking like some of the options are confusing for both advanced users and newbies. The technologies behind the tasks are hidden, and there's no obvious way to know what will happen (other than looking at the package source of tasksel in debian/control). For example: - database-server: commonly one would expect MySQL, and postgress gets installed Isn't tasksel for people with no expectations? Without explanation, SQL Database isn't useful. There's no case where you want any database server to be installed. People who know something about the technology they are looking for will install the relevant packages instead of following tasksel recommendations. Which is why IMO this option should either go away, or tell which type of db server will be installed. I'd be for the former. Thomas Goirand (zigo) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/540e5d08.6060...@debian.org
