Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Russ Allbery]

Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What about:

> "Docks, launchers, clocks, and other applets to add general features to
> a graphical environment, but not system configuration tools."

> Removed "mouse utilities" because it is too general. Also changed
> "programs" to "applets" to make it more clear that applications that
> make major changes should still go to "Administration".

> I also do not like the word "utilities", as it is hard to translate.
> "Desktop Applets" would be more accurate, in my opinion.

Works for me.  You may want to say "not system configuration or monitoring
tools" to explicitly exclude gkrellm, xload, etc., which have another
category into which they fit better.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   

Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-07-25 11:12]:
> Nico Golde wrote:
[...] 
> > change of desktop behaviour in my opinion is not a "system-change".
> 
> It is. If you change your desktop environment to use single-click
> instead of double-click, is that not a "system change"?

No? It's a user environment change, system changes are 
reserver to uid 0.

> > I really think the only sane thing is to 
> > ask for Applications/Tools in this case also because alot of 
> > other X applications will have the same problem.
> 
> No. This has already been discussed a lot. "Tools" is gone for good.

Then what was the reason for it? I mean looking at this 
discussion it doesn't look too good to me.
Cheers
Nico
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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Russ Allbery wrote:

>> We need a good definition for the section, so that it would not become a
>> dump for packages that do not fit elsewhere. Ideas?
> 
> "Docks, program launchers, clocks, mouse utilities, and other programs to
> add general features to a graphical environment" perhaps?  And yes,
> Applications/Desktop Utilities is better.

What about:

"Docks, launchers, clocks, and other applets to add general features to
a graphical environment, but not system configuration tools."

Removed "mouse utilities" because it is too general. Also changed
"programs" to "applets" to make it more clear that applications that
make major changes should still go to "Administration".

I also do not like the word "utilities", as it is hard to translate.
"Desktop Applets" would be more accurate, in my opinion.

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Nico Golde wrote:

> In my opinion it would be nice to have some kind of misc
> subsection for every section to have a workaround this, just 
> like the wildcard tags in debtags.

No it would not. Already discussed and rejected.


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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Nico Golde wrote:

> I don't really have a better section proposal but I don't 
> really think it fits there because I would not search for a 
> general user tool in a section for root tools. Also the 

The definition of System/Administration is "Administrative and system
configuration utilities, also tools for personal user settings."

> change of desktop behaviour in my opinion is not a "system-change".

It is. If you change your desktop environment to use single-click
instead of double-click, is that not a "system change"?

> I really think the only sane thing is to 
> ask for Applications/Tools in this case also because alot of 
> other X applications will have the same problem.

No. This has already been discussed a lot. "Tools" is gone for good.

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-07-24 21:57]:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
[...] 
> >> I wonder if Applications/Desktop would make sense, for desktop utilities,
> >> which seems to be the term most used for this kind of thing.
> > 
> > Rather Applications/"Desktop utilities" then, but I think that would be
> > a sensible addition.
> 
> We need a good definition for the section, so that it would not become a
> dump for packages that do not fit elsewhere. Ideas?

In my opinion it would be nice to have some kind of misc
subsection for every section to have a workaround this, just 
like the wildcard tags in debtags.
Cheers
Nico
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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-07-24 12:33]:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
[...] 
> > I do see the need for some sort of general category for that kind of
> > thing.  Applications/Tools is way too general-sounding, though, and I
> > agree with removing that.
> 
> What about System/Administration? It fits there because a) it changes
> the way your desktop environment behaves, and b) you would usually only
> start it once per session.
[...] 
I don't really have a better section proposal but I don't 
really think it fits there because I would not search for a 
general user tool in a section for root tools. Also the 
change of desktop behaviour in my opinion is not a 
"system-change". I really think the only sane thing is to 
ask for Applications/Tools in this case also because alot of 
other X applications will have the same problem.

If this is no option my favorite would be 
Applications/System combined with a Hints field.

Kind regards
Nico

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Russ Allbery]

Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery wrote:

>> Rather Applications/"Desktop utilities" then, but I think that would be
>> a sensible addition.

> We need a good definition for the section, so that it would not become a
> dump for packages that do not fit elsewhere. Ideas?

"Docks, program launchers, clocks, mouse utilities, and other programs to
add general features to a graphical environment" perhaps?  And yes,
Applications/Desktop Utilities is better.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   

Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Russ Allbery wrote:

>> What about System/Administration? It fits there because a) it changes
>> the way your desktop environment behaves, and b) you would usually only
>> start it once per session.
> 
> This isn't horrible, but I don't think it's a particularly great
> solution.  I think of System/Administration as tools that configure the
> system or perform administrative actions, not utilities for the desktop.

Providing new functionality may be considered configuration, but I agree
that this is not a general solution.

Frank Küster wrote:

>> I think there are a fair number.  While a lot of them can find room
>> elsewhere (such as Games/Toys for things like xeyes), 
> 
> I really wouldn't look for xeyes in Games.  I use it not too rarely,
> just as a "mouse cursor magnifier" when working in brigth sunlight and
> such.

Could somebody make a rough list of such applications? Or at least
provide an approximate number?

>> I wonder if Applications/Desktop would make sense, for desktop utilities,
>> which seems to be the term most used for this kind of thing.
> 
> Rather Applications/"Desktop utilities" then, but I think that would be
> a sensible addition.

We need a good definition for the section, so that it would not become a
dump for packages that do not fit elsewhere. Ideas?

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Frank Küster]

Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think there are a fair number.  While a lot of them can find room
> elsewhere (such as Games/Toys for things like xeyes), 

I really wouldn't look for xeyes in Games.  I use it not too rarely,
just as a "mouse cursor magnifier" when working in brigth sunlight and
such. 

> I wonder if Applications/Desktop would make sense, for desktop utilities,
> which seems to be the term most used for this kind of thing.

Rather Applications/"Desktop utilities" then, but I think that would be
a sensible addition.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Russ Allbery]

Linas Žvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What about System/Administration? It fits there because a) it changes
> the way your desktop environment behaves, and b) you would usually only
> start it once per session.

This isn't horrible, but I don't think it's a particularly great
solution.  I think of System/Administration as tools that configure the
system or perform administrative actions, not utilities for the desktop.

> A separate section may not make much sense, because the number of
> similar applications is quite low, and most user would only have a
> couple of them installed.

I think there are a fair number.  While a lot of them can find room
elsewhere (such as Games/Toys for things like xeyes), there are other
"pseudo-window-manager" utilities that have been around for a long time.
unclutter comes to mind.  Or the millions of desktop clocks, for which I
also don't see a great category.

I wonder if Applications/Desktop would make sense, for desktop utilities,
which seems to be the term most used for this kind of thing.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   

Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Davide Truffa]

Linas Žvirblis ha scritto:

> What about System/Administration? It fits there because a) it changes
> the way your desktop environment behaves, and b) you would usually
> only start it once per session.
This seems to be the best solution, even if fbpanel (or others similar
apps) aren't administrative or system configuration utilities.

I think, I will adopt your advice.

> A separate section may not make much sense, because the number of
> similar applications is quite low, and most user would only have a
> couple of them installed.
Yes, you're right, but don't you think that force some applications
in a not appropriate menu could confuse the users?

Cheers.

-- 
Davide Truffa


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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Darren Salt wrote:

> What would actually be useful is for packages which provide lots of menu
> entries to use their own submenus. sgt-puzzles, which provides 27, is one
> such; with several other entries in Games/Puzzles, it gets a bit long...

If you really need that, you should post to debian-policy and ask for
permission. There are packages that were granted a separate section as a
special case, and if I remember correctly, there are some with
unofficial subsections.

But I do not see how this could make sense for sgt-puzzles. It provides
multiple puzzle games, but they are different games. It does not matter
if a puzzle is a _sgt_ puzzle, or not.

Anyway, this is totally off-topic for the original poster, so please
create a different thread if you want on discuss this.

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Linas Žvirblis]

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Russ Allbery wrote:

>> I was looking at the new menu structure to adopt it into my package,
>> fbpanel[1], that before it was in Apps/Tools.  Now this section is been
>> removed and there's nothing else like this.
> 
> I don't see an obvious place for this one either.  Window Managers/Tools
> would mean that menu is both a top-level category and a subcategory,
> though, which I think was intentionally avoided.

Yes. The intention was to have a balanced menu.

> I do see the need for some sort of general category for that kind of
> thing.  Applications/Tools is way too general-sounding, though, and I
> agree with removing that.

What about System/Administration? It fits there because a) it changes
the way your desktop environment behaves, and b) you would usually only
start it once per session.

A separate section may not make much sense, because the number of
similar applications is quite low, and most user would only have a
couple of them installed.

>> Actually we have a section for FVWM and another for Window Maker, but
>> nothing for the others WMs. Why?
> 
> Maybe those two actually have a pile of modules for which it makes sense
> to create menu items?  The idea of those menu sections as I understand it
> is that they're hidden for all other window managers.

Yes. These modules do not work in incompatible WM's, so they are hidden
to avoid confusion. Other WM's either do not use modules, or manage them
internally, so they do not need such sections.

As far as I see it, this is not the case for fbpanel, as it does not
depend on specific WM.

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Russ Allbery]

Davide Truffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I was looking at the new menu structure to adopt it into my package,
> fbpanel[1], that before it was in Apps/Tools.  Now this section is been
> removed and there's nothing else like this.

I don't see an obvious place for this one either.  Window Managers/Tools
would mean that menu is both a top-level category and a subcategory,
though, which I think was intentionally avoided.

I do see the need for some sort of general category for that kind of
thing.  Applications/Tools is way too general-sounding, though, and I
agree with removing that.

> Actually we have a section for FVWM and another for Window Maker, but
> nothing for the others WMs. Why?

Maybe those two actually have a pile of modules for which it makes sense
to create menu items?  The idea of those menu sections as I understand it
is that they're hidden for all other window managers.

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Russ Allbery]

Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I would not separate "Applications" and "Games" whatsoever.

[...]

This doesn't really help the original poster, who doesn't have control
over the menu hierarchy, and also doesn't really help get the menu
hierarchy changed, since that requires discussion with the menu
maintainer.  It's probably better to bring this up with the menu
maintainer directly if you want to see something happen, although the new
hierarchy that just went into effect was already rather extensively
discussed.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Eduard Bloch may or may not have written...

> #include 
> * Davide Truffa [Mon, Jul 23 2007, 10:34:53PM]:
>> I was looking at the new menu structure to adopt it into my package,
>> fbpanel[1], that before it was in Apps/Tools.
>> Now this section is been removed and there's nothing else like this.
>> These are the actual sections:
>>  Applications -> Accessibility

> I would not separate "Applications" and "Games" whatsoever. Just throw
> away that additional hierarchy levels and help saving users's hardware
> parts (mice buttons). Just use Applications submenu contents as the
> first level, and Games as another menu among them. [...]

I find that it's fine as it is: it's nice and easy to get to. If you want to
bury 'Games' in that way, fine, but don't inflict it on my desktop.

What would actually be useful is for packages which provide lots of menu
entries to use their own submenus. sgt-puzzles, which provides 27, is one
such; with several other entries in Games/Puzzles, it gets a bit long...

[snip]
>>  Screen ---> Saving
>>  Locking
>>  Window Managers
>>  FVWM Modules
>>  Window Maker

> Please put those into some "Configuration" submenu by any means.

I don't see why they belong there. Most of the entries below Screen aren't
configuration at all. The last two probably belong within 'Window Managers',
and I couldn't care less where that ends up (but "Screen" seems reasonable) -
then again, that could be because I never use those submenus... :-)

[snip]
-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
|   Let's keep the pound sterling

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Re: New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Davide Truffa [Mon, Jul 23 2007, 10:34:53PM]:
> Hi all,
> 
> I was looking at the new menu structure to adopt it into my package,
> fbpanel[1], that before it was in Apps/Tools.
> Now this section is been removed and there's nothing else like this.
> These are the actual sections:
> 
>  Applications -> Accessibility

I would not separate "Applications" and "Games" whatsoever. Just throw
away that additional hierarchy levels and help saving users's hardware
parts (mice buttons). Just use Applications submenu contents as the
first level, and Games as another menu among them. Finally that would be
pretty close to the menu structure recommended by fd.o, which we maybe
shall adapt. Sooner or later.

>  Screen ---> Saving
>  Locking
>  Window Managers
>  FVWM Modules
>  Window Maker

Please put those into some "Configuration" submenu by any means. I still
cannot understand which justification does this stuff have to have a
separate _top level_ submenu.

Eduard.
-- 
 zobel: ich habe gerade noch ein paket auf dak.ganneff geladen, kannst du
das bitte hochladen?
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New Debian Menu & Apps/Tools

[Davide Truffa]

Hi all,

I was looking at the new menu structure to adopt it into my package,
fbpanel[1], that before it was in Apps/Tools.
Now this section is been removed and there's nothing else like this.
These are the actual sections:

 Applications -> Accessibility
 Amateur Radio
 Data Management
 Editors
 Education
 Emulators
 File Management
 Graphics
 Mobile Devices
 Network --> Communication
 File Transfer
 Monitoring
 Web Browsing
 Web News
 Office
 Programming
 Project Management
 Science --> Astronomy
 Biology
 Chemistry
 Data Analysis
 Electronics
 Engineering
 Geoscience
 Mathematics
 Medicine
 Physics
 Social
 Shells
 Sound
 System ---> Administration
 Hardware
 Language Environment
 Monitoring
 Package Management
 Security
 Terminal Emulators
 Text
 TV and Radio
 Viewers
 Video
 Web Development
 Games > Action
 Adventure
 Blocks
 Board
 Card
 Puzzles
 Simulation
 Strategy
 Tools
 Toys
 Help
 Screen ---> Saving
 Locking
 Window Managers
 FVWM Modules
 Window Maker


IMO there isn't an appropriate place for my panel or others similar X
related applications. We should add something like:

 Applications/Tools or
 Window Managers/Tools

Actually we have a section for FVWM and another for Window Maker, but
nothing for the others WMs. Why?

What do you think about?

Cheers.

P.S.: Before to submit a wishlist bug to the menu package I would like
to know your opinion.

[1] http://packages.debian.org/fbpanel

-- 
Davide Truffa


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