Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 11:46:49PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its 'Desktop' task, perhaps? A seasoned Solaris admin may very well be of the opinion that running a Unix-like operating system on their desktop is much easier to support a bunch of Solaris machines from, but that Solaris itself is not particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less drivers, or whatever). -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the wrong ideas (was: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier)
On Tue, Aug 15, 2006 at 03:59:26AM -0700, Ottavio Caruso wrote: Wouter Verhelst wrote: That is a *very* bad idea. Even only on a small details, I am please to see a few people on a Debian mailing list not blindly accepting whatever comes from the Ubuntu world. Well, yeah, but in fairness, in this case the *very* bad idea was not whatever Ubuntu did, but rather the blindly changing of every instance of Ubuntu in a translated text to Debian. Brand me a troll, It would appear that way ;-P That being said, I agree with you that something coming from Ubuntu is not necessarily a good idea for Debian, too. Even if that doesn't apply to this particular case IMHO. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Tuesday 15 August 2006 15:43, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 11:46:49PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its 'Desktop' task, perhaps? ;-) Solaris is really a bad reference to prove your Desktop claim. A seasoned Solaris admin may very well be of the opinion that running a Unix-like operating system on their desktop is much easier to support a bunch of Solaris machines from, FWIW, virtual terminals are not officially supported in Solaris 8/9 for sparc and x86 (well, yes you can cheat and fight the system at your own risk), and it is no fun to type DOSish way on a single console... thus almost all installations I've ever seen have Xsun and CDE installed, no matter how server-wise they pretend to be. Sol9 comes with GNOME 2.x also ;-) but that Solaris itself is not particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less drivers, or whatever). This is true, but OpenSolaris is getting better on that front. -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 people.fccf.net/danchev/key pgp.mit.edu fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 05:00:13PM +0300, George Danchev wrote: On Tuesday 15 August 2006 15:43, Wouter Verhelst wrote: but that Solaris itself is not particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less drivers, or whatever). This is true, but OpenSolaris is getting better on that front. FWIW, I'm not very familiar with Solaris; I just tried to come up with an example of something that might be a plausible reason. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the wrong ideas (was: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier)
Em Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:29:31 +0200 Michal Čihař [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Ottavio Caruso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wouter Verhelst wrote: That is a *very* bad idea. Even only on a small details, I am please to see a few people on a Debian mailing list not blindly accepting whatever comes from the Ubuntu world. Because this *is* a bad idea. If you have localized text, blindly replacing Ubuntu with Debian will make it absolutely messy for languages that have different declension for both. And I doubt that replacing Ubuntu with Debian at run time comes from Ubuntu... /me points at himself It comes from some @debian.org, who should know better. -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Why does Ubuntu have all the wrong ideas (was: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier)
Wouter Verhelst wrote: That is a *very* bad idea. Even only on a small details, I am please to see a few people on a Debian mailing list not blindly accepting whatever comes from the Ubuntu world. Brand me a troll, but lately this looks like the trend (see debian-project). Ottavio Ottavio Caruso -- No individual replies, please! __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the wrong ideas (was: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier)
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 03:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Ottavio Caruso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wouter Verhelst wrote: That is a *very* bad idea. Even only on a small details, I am please to see a few people on a Debian mailing list not blindly accepting whatever comes from the Ubuntu world. Because this *is* a bad idea. If you have localized text, blindly replacing Ubuntu with Debian will make it absolutely messy for languages that have different declension for both. And I doubt that replacing Ubuntu with Debian at run time comes from Ubuntu... -- Michal Čihař | http://cihar.com | http://blog.cihar.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: The second feature is quite cool; update-notifier uses hal to detect that a new CD/DVD was inserted and tries to figure out whether that is a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. Please don't mess with gettext this way. You should ask Ubuntu people to rewrite the lines so that the 'branding' is removed or, at most, is handled by a variable that *is* replaced at runtime (this is what was introduced in Debian Installer). If you do string-based replacement you are going to miss (or break) non-ASCII based languages (think Japanese or Chinese). Regards Javier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Le Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 09:03:52PM -0500, John Goerzen a écrit : Say you were a seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious operating system, suitable for server-class work? Maybe a way to solve the problem would be to make clear in the package name, documentation and popup messages that it is not a native Debian tool? For instance, it could be called Ubuntu update notifier for Debian. In the end, it seems to me that the problem is more that the tool has a name made only with dictionary words, which suggest that it is *the* tool to use. In the future, there may be more update notifiers, each with its own policy about when to reboot, when to relog, and so on, and update-notifier would have an advantage over the others, which is unfortunate because of the bad practices it promotes as you pointed out. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:58:53 +0900 Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Maybe a way to solve the problem would be to make clear in the package name, documentation and popup messages that it is not a native Debian tool? For instance, it could be called Ubuntu update notifier for Debian. That sounds a bit awkward to me... In the end, it seems to me that the problem is more that the tool has a name made only with dictionary words, which suggest that it is *the* tool to use. In the future, there may be more update notifiers, each with its own policy about when to reboot, when to relog, and so on, and update-notifier would have an advantage over the others, which is unfortunate because of the bad practices it promotes as you pointed out. Actually, policy for 'when to reboot' would be done by packages. Since no packages run the 'notify-reboot-required' script today, the message would never show up. We could adopt the policy of only displaying the message on kernel upgrades, for example. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: The second feature is quite cool; update-notifier uses hal to detect that a new CD/DVD was inserted and tries to figure out whether that is a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. That is a *very* bad idea. Debian has a different genus in some languages from Ubuntu, which means that just replacing any occurrance of Ubuntu with Debian in those languages will render a sentence which is gramatically incorrect. Please don't do this. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Please don't mess with gettext this way. You should ask Ubuntu people to
rewrite the lines so that the 'branding' is removed or, at most, is handled
by a variable that *is* replaced at runtime (this is what was introduced in
Debian Installer). If you do string-based replacement you are going to miss
(or break) non-ASCII based languages (think Japanese or Chinese).
This is what has been suggested on -i18n and what Gustavo will
probably do.
Even replacing branding by a variable is wrong as Debian or Ubuntu
may be variable in some languages...or influence the remaining of the
sentence.
For instance, if we say something of {Ubuntu|Debian} in English,
it will translate to either quelque chose d'Ubuntu or quelque chose
de Debian in French...so using something of ${DISTRO} in English
would be wrong.
The very very best is unbranding.
I would actually recommend all fellow Debian package maintainers to
think about this and try to avoid branding as much as possible (this
is for instance what has been done in D-I where Debian is mentioned
very very rarely).
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Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
[Sorry for sending the message only to you John =(] Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:03:52 -0500 John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Not if this is their first exposure to Debian. Say you were a seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious operating system, suitable for server-class work? I doubt it. hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its 'Desktop' task, perhaps? Again, this is clearly targeted at Desktop users. If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that would still be good for beginners? How about: Important packages [list the packages] have been upgraded and provide security or stability improvements. The easiest way to make these improvements take effect is to reboot your system. However, you may alternatively manually restart any services that use these packages without a reboot. Sounds good, I'll take a look at how that could work, perhaps tomorrow. Thanks! -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:29:13 -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: [...] a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. Too bad this hack is not going to work in many languages (yes, Polish is one of them). Ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension ? -- Michał Politowski Talking has been known to lead to communication if practiced carelessly. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: update-notifier is a program made by the Ubuntu guys which puts a notification icon in the notification area and warns the user about updates being available, and allowing them to run update-manager (a simple upgrade manager tool based on Synaptic). Odd. I installed Debian on my laptop a few weeks ago, and I seem to regularily get notifications from update-manager for new packages already. It would seem update-manager does this nicely all by itself...? /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:38:20 +0200 Steinar H. Gunderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: update-notifier is a program made by the Ubuntu guys which puts a notification icon in the notification area and warns the user about updates being available, and allowing them to run update-manager (a simple upgrade manager tool based on Synaptic). Odd. I installed Debian on my laptop a few weeks ago, and I seem to regularily get notifications from update-manager for new packages already. It would seem update-manager does this nicely all by itself...? No, that is update-notifier notifying you. It is in Debian since quite some time now, though the 'you need to reboot' and CD detection were not working. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:31:50 +0200 Michal Politowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:29:13 -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: [...] a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. Too bad this hack is not going to work in many languages (yes, Polish is one of them). Ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension ? Never heard of it by this name, but I knew it to exist. Unfortunately I didn't remember that while trying to avoid work duplication, sorry. That problem has been pointed out to me at debian-desktop as well, I'll change the way I handle this. Thanks, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 09:45:02PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: Em Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:26:51 -0500 John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. Not really; if the machine does have an 'administrator': 1) they would probably be using their own methods of keeping software up-to-date 2) they'd know when to reboot, and would ignore the message (that's what I'd do) Not if this is their first exposure to Debian. Say you were a seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious operating system, suitable for server-class work? I doubt it. If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that would still be good for beginners? How about: Important packages [list the packages] have been upgraded and provide security or stability improvements. The easiest way to make these improvements take effect is to reboot your system. However, you may alternatively manually restart any services that use these packages without a reboot. It will not be disturbing you every once in a while, like windows update, heh. Probably also won't be validating your machine with Microsoft, but still ;-) So, again, notice that if a machine is on a network administered centrally or has an 'administrator' for some other reason, there would be no real need for update-notifier to be even installed, so I'd like to focus here on end-user desktops, only. I understand, but I am concerned that people just learning Debian won't. Let's make Debian simple for the desktop user, certainly, but let's not lie to them in the process. A reboot really isn't necessary in Debian with pretty much anything but kernel updates, so let's not say that it is. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Fellow Debianers, I'm writing to you all in order to present some new features added to the Debian Desktop, and to discuss how we could make use of them in some of our subsystems. I just uploaded update-notifier 0.42.12-1 to unstable. Unfortunately I lost dinstall for the day, so we'll only see the results in unstable many hours from now, though I've uploaded them to a public location[0]. update-notifier is a program made by the Ubuntu guys which puts a notification icon in the notification area and warns the user about updates being available, and allowing them to run update-manager (a simple upgrade manager tool based on Synaptic). This version of the Debian package brings some more robust utnubu work, such as making the reboot required notification and Debian CD insertion detection work. The first feature is useful for those packages which are critical, and which really want a reboot after upgrade, such as kernel, perhaps libc, and any library or package fixing security problems. These simply need to run /usr/share/update-notifier/notify-reboot-required (which will touch /var/run/reboot-required) on postinst, and a notification will appear to the user at his desktop telling them that a reboot is required, and allowing them after the package manager is done applying changes. This is done in Ubuntu by communicating with GDM through a nice program called gdm-signal, which was built using code from gnome-panel and some more written by Rob Taylor, and which is distributed in Ubuntu's powermanagement-interface package; I included this work in update-notifier as a private program, for now, but maybe we should add it to our gdm package? Ubuntu does not seem to have provisions for KDE; if our KDE guys know how we'd go about doing the same for KDM, let me know; same goes for XFCE and other desktops which support the notification area protocol, and would, thus, be able to run update-notifier. The second feature is quite cool; update-notifier uses hal to detect that a new CD/DVD was inserted and tries to figure out whether that is a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. I'm writing to all of you so that you are aware that these nice desktop features are now included in Debian, and so we can discuss whether and how we'll make use of them to accomplish a nicer Debian Desktop. Please follow up issues related to a specific subteam in the approppriate mailing list, but please keep me CC'ed. For coolness effect, here's the first time I saw a Debian CD being detected in my desktop: http://kov.eti.br/~kov/update-notifier-debian-cd.png See you, [0]: http://people.debian.org/~kov/stuff/ -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: The first feature is useful for those packages which are critical, and which really want a reboot after upgrade, such as kernel, perhaps libc, and any library or package fixing security problems. These simply need to run /usr/share/update-notifier/notify-reboot-required (which will touch /var/run/reboot-required) on postinst, and a notification will appear to the user at his desktop telling them that a reboot is required, and allowing them after the package manager is done applying changes. I think this is, at best, misleading. The kernel is really the only thing that absolutely requires a reboot. Users can deal with the rest themselves, mostly. I understand that this tool may be aimed at those that don't have a great deal of experience, but I think that you are presenting misleading information to everyone. To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. I like the idea of this program, but this particular thing gives me the impression that Debian is regressing to something that's no better than Windows Update under Windows 98. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:26:51 -0500 John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: I understand that this tool may be aimed at those that don't have a great deal of experience, but I think that you are presenting misleading information to everyone. Exactly. To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. Not really; if the machine does have an 'administrator': 1) they would probably be using their own methods of keeping software up-to-date 2) they'd know when to reboot, and would ignore the message (that's what I'd do) If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that would still be good for beginners? I like the idea of this program, but this particular thing gives me the impression that Debian is regressing to something that's no better than Windows Update under Windows 98. It will not be disturbing you every once in a while, like windows update, heh. So, again, notice that if a machine is on a network administered centrally or has an 'administrator' for some other reason, there would be no real need for update-notifier to be even installed, so I'd like to focus here on end-user desktops, only. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
