Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Donnerstag 25 Oktober 2007 schrieb Vincent Danjean:
> racoon seems to be a replacement for a cisco system (server, NOT client)
>
> I cannot modify the server infrastructure at my work (this can change:
> I'm not the only one annoyed by the cisco client). So racoon does not
> seem to fit as a drop-in free replacement for the cisco vpn client.

No, an IKE daemon is needed on both sides of a IPsec connection (when actually 
using IKE). Not sure if Ciscos can already do IKEv2 (->racoon2 or openIKEv2).

HS


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Vincent Danjean]

Eduard Bloch wrote:
> #include 
> * Bastian Blank [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:36:27PM]:
>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote:
> 107 cisco-vpnc3
> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
 (free replacement exists)
>>> Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.
>> racoon.
> 
> Try "apt-cache search racoon" then.

racoon seems to be a replacement for a cisco system (server, NOT client)

I cannot modify the server infrastructure at my work (this can change:
I'm not the only one annoyed by the cisco client). So racoon does not
seem to fit as a drop-in free replacement for the cisco vpn client.

  Best regards,
Vincent


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Vincent Danjean]

Eduard Bloch wrote:
> #include 
> * Vincent Danjean [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 08:55:12PM]:
>> Faidon Liambotis wrote:
 107 cisco-vpnc3
 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
>>> (free replacement exists)
>> Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.
> 
> It does (less or more) when you recompile it with SSL support. We just
> cannot distribute it. This would be a pretty good case for "risky"
> package, IMHO.

  I've just seen that some support for certificates has been introduced in
vpnc as you say :-
  However, certificates seem to be only used to authentificate the server
(so that the login is more secure) but they are not (yet ?) used to
authentificate the user (I've a certificate but no login/password at my
workplace).
  So, there is good hope that vpnc will be able to replace cisco-vpnclient,
but this is not yet the case for now.

  Regards,
Vincent


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Vincent Danjean [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 08:55:12PM]:
> Faidon Liambotis wrote:
> >> 107 cisco-vpnc3
> >> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
> > (free replacement exists)
> 
> Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.

It does (less or more) when you recompile it with SSL support. We just
cannot distribute it. This would be a pretty good case for "risky"
package, IMHO.

Regards,
Eduard.

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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Bastian Blank [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:36:27PM]:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote:
> > >> 107 cisco-vpnc3
> > >> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
> > > (free replacement exists)
> > Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.
> 
> racoon.

Try "apt-cache search racoon" then.

Eduard.

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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Bastian Blank]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote:
> >> 107 cisco-vpnc3
> >> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
> > (free replacement exists)
> Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.

racoon.

Bastian

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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Faidon Liambotis]

Bastian Blank wrote:
 >>>  14 zaptel  295
>> Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet.
> 
> Not possible to merge in the current state.
I know, I'm comaintaining it :)
It may be a good candidate (along with mISDN/vISDN) for Greg KH's team,
however.

>>>  12 kvm 337
>> Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source
>> package.
> 
> Why?
Why what? It's still under heavy development and changes between
versions are rapid. Only recently the ABI was stabilized.

>>>  76 btsco 7
>>> 148 bluetooth-alsa1
>> Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin.
> 
> Hmm, the userspace alsa plugin is also called bluetooth-alsa and needs a
> sco fix not yet submitted.
Nope, that's deprecated too now. A support for ALSA was merged into
Bluez. bluetooth-alsa's homepage mentions that.
I'm 100% sure because it's working for me with stock Debian kernel :)

Regards,
Faidon


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[James Westby]

On (24/10/07 09:50), Bastian Blank wrote:
> > >  13 loop-aes305
> 
> Deprecated by dm-crypt.

Not entirely true. However it is not going to go in to upstream, so the
effect is the same.

Thanks,

James

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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Vincent Danjean]

Faidon Liambotis wrote:
>> 107 cisco-vpnc3
>> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
> (free replacement exists)

Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate.

If you know a free replacement of cisco-vpnclient that can handle
certificates, I would be very very very happy.

  Best regards,
Vincent


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[brian m. carlson]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 12:22:32PM +0300, Riku Voipio wrote:
[Fedora disallows non-upstreamed kernel modules]


Very interesting. I'd say we should atleast consider it due to various
points:


My concern is modules in the upstream kernel which have firmware 
problems.  While I am opposed to carrying non-free firmware in main, 
I have no problem with carrying it in non-free.  Therefore, some modules 
might do well in contrib, or even in main[0], if the firmware is not 
required.


This problem does not occur with Fedora, and therefore their policy does 
not consider it.  This is why we should not follow Fedora.


[0] The tg3 driver, which I am using right now for my laptop's ethernet 
card, is just such a case.  See also #446028.


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Riku Voipio]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 11:32:26AM +1000, Paul Wise wrote:
> Interestingly, Fedora has a new policy that kernel module packages
> must be merged with kernel.org or removed from Fedora:

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/KernelModules
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidWoodhouse/KmodProposal

> I don't think this would be an option for Debian, but it certainly is
> a gutsy move.

Very interesting. I'd say we should atleast consider it due to various
points:

Why we should follow Fedora
--

+ Out of kernel modules tend to be low quality.

Either they lack the strict kernel community review, or they
have failed the review and thus are sticking outside the mainline
kernel. Do we want to expose users to buggy drivers? In kernel
space there is lots of potential for data-loss and security
bugs. Not to mention general system instability.

+ Out of kernel modules and patches get rapidly out of date

Everytime kernel team updates the kernel, a bunch of
kernel-module and kernel-patch packages break and need updating.
This is big maintainence headache, and litters the RC bug
list count.

+ Out of kernel modules are harder to use

Even with m-a, it's still an bunch of extra steps over normal
apt-get install.

+ The effort used in maintaining out of kernel modules could
  be used in something else.

For example in cleaning and helping the driver upstream
to submit the driver upstream.

Why not...
--

- Users will be unhappy with less "supported" hardware

This may be deceptive. The users complaining that "ubuntu
supported this hardware out of box" might have just left
ubuntu due to stability problems.

- Driver could be good, just the upstream is unjustfiedly refusing it

Alternatively the Out-of-kernel module upstream might have
whatever reasons why they want to keep their driver away
from mainline. Not being a kernel developers, it might be
hard to see if the module author or the kernel subsystem
maintainer is right about the maturity/quality of the driver.

In any case, this is more of a social than technical problem.
maintining the driver out-of-free will merely allow to prolong
the problem instead of solving it.

The Exception to the rule:
-

non-free kernel modules.

- Not mainlineble - ever
- Any quality problems will just be a practical demonstration to
  users of disadvantages of nonfree code.



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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Bernd Zeimetz]

>>>  34 thinkpad 54
> 
> The acpi support?


No, the thinkpad modules provided a lot of useful functions for things
which are done by acpi now - but back at times when acpi was not useable
or didn't exist, they worked very well - and still do so for Thinkpads
which can't handle acpi. Thinkpads had a well working APM implementation
for a long time, at least up to the R/T40 series.

http://tpctl.sourceforge.net/


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Bastian Blank]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 01:44:03AM +0300, Faidon Liambotis wrote:
> >  25 ieee80211   109
> >  61 ieee80211softmac 14

Merged and deprecated by mac80211.

> >  14 zaptel  295
> Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet.

Not possible to merge in the current state.

> >   2 ndiswrapper1484
> Present in Debian, not considered by mainline for inclusion.

Upstream Linux even taints itself if a module called "ndiswrapper" is
loaded.

> >  12 kvm 337
> Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source
> package.

Why?

> >  76 btsco 7
> > 148 bluetooth-alsa1
> Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin.

Hmm, the userspace alsa plugin is also called bluetooth-alsa and needs a
sco fix not yet submitted.

> >   6 openafs 614

Root-kit aka system call table modifications.

> >  34 thinkpad 54

The acpi support?

> >  41 virtualbox   45
> >  17 virtualbox-ose  258

Builds to a over 1 MiB large module. This does not look minimal to me.

> >  13 loop-aes305

Deprecated by dm-crypt.

> >  24 sl-modem119

non-free, blob

> >  27 pwc  84

Merged.

> >  48 tidev22

USB_SERIAL_TI?

> >  52 openswan 17

Deprecated in favor of XFRM based ipsec support.

> >  54 redhat-cluster   17

gfs2 and corresponding dlm is merged. Legacy support only.

> >  68 qla2x00  10

SCSI_QLA_FC?

> >  87 linux-iscsi   4

Long merged.

> >  90 lustre4

Patches core vfs code.

Bastian

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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Paul Wise]

On 10/20/07, Ben Hutchings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It seems like it would be useful to
> aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages

Interestingly, Fedora has a new policy that kernel module packages
must be merged with kernel.org or removed from Fedora:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/KernelModules
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidWoodhouse/KmodProposal

I don't think this would be an option for Debian, but it certainly is
a gutsy move.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Faidon Liambotis]

Philippe Cloutier wrote:
>> >   4 ipw3945 897
>> Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24.
>>   
> iwlwifi is "contrib", like ipw3945.
iwlwifi needs non-free firmware, ipw3945 needs non-free firmware and
non-free userspace daemon.

The "free" above was mainline's defintion, not Debian's.
ipw3945 was never merged mainly because of the non-free userspace part,
while iwlwifi is already merged on wireless-2.6.

>> > 132 rtl8180   1
>> > 130 rtl8180-sa24001
>> Merged.
>>   
> You must be thinking about rtl8187. These look like unofficial packages
> anyway.
Right, I got confused because rtl8180 (the driver) is actually for
rtl8185 chipsets (rtl8180 chipsets are not yet supported).

Thanks,
Faidon



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Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Paul Wise]

> According to that page "We work with the manufacturers of the specific
> device to specify, develop, submit to the main kernel, and maintain the
> kernel drivers."

You missed this page:

http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/OutOfTreeDrivers

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pabs

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Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Philippe Cloutier]

If anyone has some time, it would be valuable to work through
the list and check, which of these have been merged into Linux mainline
by now (e.g. several of the wifi drivers have) and report the missing
ones to Greg Kroah-H's driver project:
http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view
According to that page "We work with the manufacturers of the specific 
device to specify, develop, submit to the main kernel, and maintain the 
kernel drivers."



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Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Philippe Cloutier]

WiFi

>   4 ipw3945 897
Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24.
  

iwlwifi is "contrib", like ipw3945.


>  25 ieee80211   109
>  61 ieee80211softmac 14
>  31 ipw2100  71
>  18 ipw2200 169
>  36 hostap   51
Merged.

Already removed.


> 132 rtl8180   1
> 130 rtl8180-sa24001
Merged.
  
You must be thinking about rtl8187. These look like unofficial packages 
anyway.

>  53 pcmcia   17
>  30 kernel-pcmcia79
2.4 material, not needed on 2.6.
  

Removed long ago.


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Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Faidon Liambotis]

Ben Hutchings wrote:
> I didn't know that table existed!  It seems like it would be useful to
> aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages by stripping
> off the kernel version suffix.  Here's what I came up with:

OK, here's a preliminary analysis of your results. There are quite a few
of TODOs, so if anyone wants to step-in, be my guest ;-)

WiFi

>   1 madwifi1666
>  51 madwifi-ng   18
non-free/deprecated, in favor of ath5k, currently present in
wireless-2.6 and pending kernel inclusion.

>   4 ipw3945 897
Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24.

>   5 alsa715
Merged on all 2.6 kernels (this was a sarge package)

>  73 rt61  8
> 157 rt73  1
>  39 rt2400   46
>   7 rt2500  590
>  26 rt2570  100
> 123 rt2x00-cvs2
>  19 rt2x00  154
All replaced by the latter, which will be present in 2.6.24.

>  25 ieee80211   109
>  61 ieee80211softmac 14
>  31 ipw2100  71
>  18 ipw2200 169
>  36 hostap   51
Merged.

>  78 bcm43xx   6
Merged as bcm43xx and now (2.6.24) b43/b43legacy.

> 132 rtl8180   1
> 130 rtl8180-sa24001
Merged.

> 154 p54   1
Merged.

>  97 adm8211   3
Merged.

>  23 linux-wlan-ng   123
Not going to be merged since hostap (already present) does the job better.

VoIP

>  50 misdn20
Created by the i4l team, I think they're considering for inclusion.

>  14 zaptel  295
Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet.

> 155 sangoma-wanpipe   1
Binary blob, IIRC.

proprietary/non-free


>  29 vmware-kernel79
>  42 vmware   39
>  43 vmware-server-kernel 37
>  47 vmware-any-any-kernel26
>  96 vmware-any-any-player-1.0.2   3
> 111 vmware4   2
> 117 vmware-any-any-player-1.0.3   2
> 119 vmware-player-kernel  2
> 125 vmware-tools-kernel   1
> 128 kernel-vmware 1

> 107 cisco-vpnc3
> 143 cisco-vpnclient   1
(free replacement exists)

>  93 fritz-classic 3
>  98 fritz-pci 3
> 100 fritz-pnp 3
> 109 fritz-xusb3
> 129 avm   1

False positives
---
>  11 linux   391
>  62 linux-ubuntu 12
>  63 kernel   12
>  65 linux-restricted 12
>  85 kernel-nonfree5
>  95 linux-backports   3
> 153 dummy-linux   1

> 145 ext3  1
> 147 usb   1
> 150 scsi-core 1
(d-i module packages)


Rest

>   2 ndiswrapper1484
Present in Debian, not considered by mainline for inclusion.

>   3 kqemu   898
Distributed by Debian (recently moved to main from non-free)
I don't think upstream intends to submit it anytime soon.

>  12 kvm 337
Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source
package.

>  22 unionfs 124
>  91 unionfs-knoppix   4
In the process of merging (under some discussion).

>  53 pcmcia   17
>  30 kernel-pcmcia79
2.4 material, not needed on 2.6.

>  20 ivtv149
>  94 ivtv0.3   3
>  60 ivtv0.4  14
>  66 ivtv0.6  12
>  55 ivtv0.7  16
>  59 ivtv0.8  15
> 102 ivtv0.9   3
>  37 ivtv0.10 49
Merged.

>  28 fuse 82
Merged.

> 151 lzma  1
Merged.

>  67 eagle-usb11
>  69 sony-acpi 9
Merged.

>  72 freeswan  8
Deprecated in favor of openswan

>  74 rtai  7
Rejected from inclusion, -rt is the way to go.

>  75 drbd  7
Proposed for inclusion, under review.

>  76 btsco 7
> 148 bluetooth-alsa1
Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin.


TODO

>   6 openafs 614
>   8 lirc475
>   9 gspca   461
>  10 

Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Ben Hutchings wrote:
>
>> Nevertheless on the user's side there is a demand for those=20
>> codecs which can be whitnessed by the broad acceptance of unofficial=20
>> repositories [see: http://popcon.debian.org/unknown/by_inst ].=20
>
>
> I didn't know that table existed!  It seems like it would be useful to
> aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages by stripping
> off the kernel version suffix.  Here's what I came up with:

Nice list! If anyone has some time, it would be valuable to work through
the list and check, which of these have been merged into Linux mainline
by now (e.g. several of the wifi drivers have) and report the missing
ones to Greg Kroah-H's driver project:
http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view

He has 310 developers at hand, who are eager to merge potential out-of-
tree drivers and such: http://www.kroah.com/log/ 

Cheers,
Moritz


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Out-of-tree kernel module popularity

[Ben Hutchings]

On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 13:02 +0200, Fabian Greffrath wrote:

> Nevertheless on the user's side there is a demand for those 
> codecs which can be whitnessed by the broad acceptance of unofficial 
> repositories [see: http://popcon.debian.org/unknown/by_inst ]. 


I didn't know that table existed!  It seems like it would be useful to
aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages by stripping
off the kernel version suffix.  Here's what I came up with:

rank name  inst

  1 madwifi1666
  2 ndiswrapper1484
  3 kqemu   898
  4 ipw3945 897
  5 alsa715
  6 openafs 614
  7 rt2500  590
  8 lirc475
  9 gspca   461
 10 spca5xx 397
 11 linux   391
 12 kvm 337
 13 loop-aes305
 14 zaptel  295
 15 qc-usb  293
 16 linux-uvc   279
 17 virtualbox-ose  258
 18 ipw2200 169
 19 rt2x00  154
 20 ivtv149
 21 squashfs129
 22 unionfs 124
 23 linux-wlan-ng   123
 24 sl-modem119
 25 ieee80211   109
 26 rt2570  100
 27 pwc  84
 28 fuse 82
 29 vmware-kernel79
 30 kernel-pcmcia79
 31 ipw2100  71
 32 exmap60
 33 ov51159
 34 thinkpad 54
 35 ov51x-jpeg   54
 36 hostap   51
 37 ivtv0.10 49
 38 nozomi   49
 39 rt2400   46
 40 at76c503a45
 41 virtualbox   45
 42 vmware   39
 43 vmware-server-kernel 37
 44 acerhk   29
 45 aufs 29
 46 mol  28
 47 vmware-any-any-kernel26
 48 tidev22
 49 ltsp 20
 50 misdn20
 51 madwifi-ng   18
 52 openswan 17
 53 pcmcia   17
 54 redhat-cluster   17
 55 ivtv0.7  16
 56 em8300   15
 57 wacom-kernel 15
 58 oprofile 15
 59 ivtv0.8  15
 60 ivtv0.4  14
 61 ieee80211softmac 14
 62 linux-ubuntu 12
 63 kernel   12
 64 dazuko   12
 65 linux-restricted 12
 66 ivtv0.6  12
 67 eagle-usb11
 68 qla2x00  10
 69 sony-acpi 9
 70 ndas  9
 71 gpib  8
 72 freeswan  8
 73 rt61  8
 74 rtai  7
 75 drbd  7
 76 btsco 7
 77 netfilter-extensions  6
 78 bcm43xx   6
 79 unicorn   6
 80 mactel-drivers6
 81 zr364xx   5
 82 zydas 5
 83 et131x5
 84 ipp2p 5
 85 kernel-nonfree5
 86 acer-acpi 5
 87 linux-iscsi   4
 88 rtsp-conntrack4
 89 userlink  4
 90 lustre4
 91 unionfs-knoppix   4
 92 ipset 4
 93 fritz-classic 3
 94 ivtv0.3   3
 95 linux-backports   3
 96 vmware-any-any-player-1.0.2   3
 97 adm8211   3
 98 fritz-pci 3
 99 qcm-usb   3
100 fritz-pnp 3
101 acx   3
102 ivtv0.9   3
103 btrfs 3
104 kkcore3
105 patchfinder   3
106 qce   3
107 cisco-vpnc3
108 tp-smapi  3
109 fritz-xusb3
110 cowloop   2
111 vmware4   2
112 usbvision 2
113 vt1211