Re: Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
nice work!
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 04:25:17PM -0300, Daniel Ruoso wrote: QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) Ha. Hahahaa. Ha, ha, ha... -- - mdz
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 06:27:59PM -0400, Matt Zimmerman wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 04:25:17PM -0300, Daniel Ruoso wrote: QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) Ha. Hahahaa. Ha, ha, ha... You don't think he's a Master? I'm quite sure he's a Master debater. He's also probably a good fisherman - a baiter, as it were. - Matt
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 06:27:59PM -0400, Matt Zimmerman wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 04:25:17PM -0300, Daniel Ruoso wrote: QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) Ha. Hahahaa. Ha, ha, ha... You don't think he's a Master? I'm quite sure he's a Master debater. He's also probably a good fisherman - a baiter, as it were. Like any of that's enough to fight the dark master bater. I think you're drawing a lot of crazy conclusions about the unholy prince bater. -- I'm sick of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. pgp6exA2MaIw6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
* Daniel Ruoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-10-08 16:25]: I personally sent and email to DAM asking if I should ask again for sponsor or if should I wait to become a developer and I got no answer. Actually, you did get an answer, on day after sending your mail. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Daniel Ruoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this should be clearly discussed. Original link at: http://www.advogato.org/article/716.html QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) me you need to get 5 sponsors blah blah I found 4, but they scared out every 5th one! I was at a later time told that it was a way of rejecting I will admit I was one of the four sponsors, based on my theory that the best way to make someone be nice, is to be nice to them, as what goes around comes around. Golden rule and all that. In retrospect, perhaps that technique has not been entirely successful. Anyway, I'd like to publically say no one ever tried to scare me out or any B.S. like that. I find that claim Very Very Hard to believe.
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
(in the interest of openness...) On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:06:46AM -0500, Vince Mulhollon wrote: Daniel Ruoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this should be clearly discussed. Original link at: http://www.advogato.org/article/716.html QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) me you need to get 5 sponsors blah blah I found 4, but they scared out every 5th one! I was at a later time told that it was a way of rejecting I will admit I was one of the four sponsors, based on my theory that the best way to make someone be nice, is to be nice to them, as what goes around comes around. Golden rule and all that. In retrospect, perhaps that technique has not been entirely successful. Anyway, I'd like to publically say no one ever tried to scare me out or any B.S. like that. I find that claim Very Very Hard to believe. I believe this is a (deliberately?) clouded reference to an exchange I had with Eray on IRC (buried in the log that was posted). What actually happened was that I told *Eray* I suspected the 5th sponsor he was seeking was being derelict in his duty to the project, and that if I felt the developer in question sponsored him for reasons that were contrary to the spirit of the project, I intended to bring a GR against that developer. This was actually mentioned for Eray's sake as much as anything, because I didn't think it was right for him to get his hopes up under those circumstances. In any case, the prospective sponsor eventually reconsidered on his own with no threats from me (if anything, threatening probably would have strengthened his resolve) and came to the conclusion many others had about Eray's qualifications. Whether there were other potential 5th sponsors that were dissuaded, I couldn't say. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpA6gLVpcabo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:06:46AM -0500, Vince Mulhollon wrote: I will admit I was one of the four sponsors, based on my theory that the best way to make someone be nice, is to be nice to them, as what goes around comes around. Golden rule and all that. In retrospect, perhaps that technique has not been entirely successful. It's always good to temper one's optimism with a little realism. Some people just won't play nice. Just like how in school the worst bullies *knew* that you'd been told the old saw just ignore them and they'll go away, and so deliberately kept up their idiocy far beyond any human limits of patience. It's called gaming the system. Such people, if they have intelligence, often grow up to become mutual fund managers. Anyway, I'd like to publically say no one ever tried to scare me out or any B.S. like that. I find that claim Very Very Hard to believe. Damn, the horse's head in the bed didn't work? :) -- G. Branden Robinson|America is at that awkward stage. Debian GNU/Linux |It's too late to work within the [EMAIL PROTECTED] |system, but too early to shoot the http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |bastards. -- Claire Wolfe signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Am Do, den 09.10.2003 schrieb Branden Robinson um 05:17: http://people.debian.org/~rene/exa-log-24-07-2003 Just wanted to thank rene for recording that, it was a interesting reading for the evening, and certainly better than German TV. I especially like these parts: 15:39 * Madkiss grins 15:39 * _rene_ joins Madkiss 15:39 * robster too 15:41 * Wile_E gets popcorn 15:53 * stockholm needs to do his laundry. :-) nomeata -- Joachim nomeata Breitner e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C | ICQ#: 74513189 Geekcode: GCS/IT/S d-- s++:- a--- C++ UL+++ P+++ !E W+++ N-- !W O? M?+ V? PS++ PE PGP++ t? 5? X- R+ tv- b++ DI+ D+ G e+* h! z? Bitte senden Sie mir keine Word- oder PowerPoint-Anhänge. Siehe http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.de.html -- Joachim nomeata Breitner e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C | ICQ#: 74513189 Geekcode: GCS/IT/S d-- s++:- a--- C++ UL+++ P+++ !E W+++ N-- !W O? M?+ V? PS++ PE PGP++ t? 5? X- R+ tv- b++ DI+ D+ G e+* h! z? Bitte senden Sie mir keine Word- oder PowerPoint-Anhänge. Siehe http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.de.html signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 09:37:39AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: Whether there were other potential 5th sponsors that were dissuaded, I couldn't say. I considered it, as the first indications I recieved (from going through mailing list archives) was that he was no more abrasive than others on the lists, and he appeared to do reasonable work. However, he hung himself by running around everywhere he could find screaming about how unjust it was, and also by ignoring the good-faith offer made on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Basically, Eray (not like you're listening) you did yourself in on this one, no mythical cabal quashed your application. - Matt
Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
I think this should be clearly discussed. Original link at: http://www.advogato.org/article/716.html QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) Two unrelated words. From experience. Now, what is the problem with debian? It's because debian claims to be democratic, but it isn't. It claims to be open, but it isn't open. It has a secret mailing list. And some guys who are in charge never change, like James Troup who is basically a village idiot. Now, in an open organization there are no dictators, but in debian there is. James Troup gets to decide who can get an account all by himself. Project leader changes, but he doesn't change. He is the administrator of everything. He is Mr. Debian. I'll make a summary for you guys who wonder what debian really is. 1. I volunteered to make some packages for debian. 2. I applied for an account 3. I got into a few flamewars in debian-devel 4. I had so many packages that it became too time consuming to deal with them without an account. 5. I waited for the account, it wasn't opened. (Because I must have pissed off Mr. Debian or one of his buddies) 6. I waited for many months, and wrote several times that I needed to account to do some meaningful work 7. Meanwhile James Troup, the idiot elmo of debian, told me you need to get 5 sponsors blah blah I found 4, but they scared out every 5th one! I was at a later time told that it was a way of rejecting my application by one of the other idiots. 8. It was 2 years of wait. 9. Then, some of them tell me well if you maintain your packages we'll consider the account. But I didn't back off from my position. I said I needed an account first. 9. Today these idiots write to me, we reject your application because you didn't maintain your packages and got into some flamewars. Well, for those who don't know debian lists have always been full of flamewars and I did apologize to people whom I had arguments with except a moron called Branden Robinson. I also heavily criticized James Troup because I thought he wasn't performing his duties. Anyway, it's obvious that he had a problem with me, and now I have a problem with him because his action confirms what I had suspected of him. So, why am I writing this? To cause these fools to write rebuttals full of poor rhetoric which are so typical of them? No. It's because I think the really enthusiastic members of debian project should find ways to make their project more open and more democratic. I don't want to contribute to the project any longer, if I had wanted I would have maintained my packages for the last 1.5 years despite that moron called elmo. I was frustrated by the issues I've summarized, so I decided to wait and see when this idiot would reject my application. Then, I could voice my opinion. Well, here it goes. /QUOTE P.S.: I'm in NM process for more than 1,5 years. I've requested for sponsor for packages, but got no answer. The last action was a phone call that (because of my not-so-good english) was a little pointless, and then I've got no answer again. I personally sent and email to DAM asking if I should ask again for sponsor or if should I wait to become a developer and I got no answer.
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: I think this should be clearly discussed. Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. -- Thomas Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: | On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: | I think this should be clearly discussed. | | Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that | the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? Cameron.
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Daniel Ruoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this should be clearly discussed. He calls named people village idiots and morons and acuses peoples of 'poor rhetoric'. I don't think that kind of stuff deserves to be discussed anywhere. And if you want to discusse anyway then please do it on debian-projects og maybe rather debian-couriosa where it belongs. I has nothing to do with developing Debian (the distribution). -- Peter Makholm | Perhaps that late-night surfing is not such a [EMAIL PROTECTED] | waste of time after all: it is just the web http://hacking.dk | dreaming |-- Tim Berners-Lee
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003, Cameron Patrick wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: | On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: | I think this should be clearly discussed. | | Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that | the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? You just need to ask http://lists.debian.org about it. Basically, Eray was social trouble. He proved to be able to disrupt the mailing lists as nobody else had ever managed to. It doesn't really matter how, or why. The end result was that his presence was considered detrimental to the group by a large body of people, and quite vocally I should add. Obviously not everyone thought so. But given the amount of people that were quite angry with him, the DAM requested that 5 developers speak in his behalf to aprove him. He never did get 5 developers to speak on his behalf to the DAM, as far as I know. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
He wanted to take over some of my packages and sent an email to debian-kde, but not to my Debian address. By the time I had learned of what he was doing, he had already created his own packages. He didn't know how to work with other people. If he was a developer, then he probably would have hijacked my package without even sending me a personal email. Thanks. On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 13:01, Cameron Patrick wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: | On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: | I think this should be clearly discussed. | | Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that | the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? Cameron.
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Thomas Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: I think this should be clearly discussed. Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. And to immediately stop the any discussion: --- To: debian-qa@lists.debian.org Cc: debian-mentors@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Need help: difficult NM / requestor From: Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:25:55 +0200 [...] Anyway, the offer as it stands is this (fairly standard) sponsorhip offer: Eray makes fixed packages, makes them available on a public URL, posts this URL to debian-mentors (possibly Cc:ing me and/or Mark Brown), and we sponsor these packages if they're good. If they're good, and the bugs are fixed, we'll advertise that. If the packages are very good, we'll say that publically too, and maybe advocate him to the DAM. If they're not good, we'll also advertise that, and Eray will be in an even more awkward position to bitch and demand than he is now. From: Eray Ozkural [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-qa@lists.debian.org Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:53:26 +0300 [..] Thanks Roland for presenting the situation objectively. He has taken time to elaborate on what led to the current undesirable situation and our IRC discussion today. It is as he has said. I didn't see any significant misrepresentation. [*] I am very busy writing a paper and doing a book review. When I have some volunteer time available, I will try to attend the bug reports and I'll inform potential uploads to Roland and d-mentors list. To: debian-qa@lists.debian.org Cc: debian-mentors@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:52:06 +0200 [...] For anyone interested: one month has passed. I've been away for holidays, but I found no email from Eray in my inbox when coming back. To: debian-qa@lists.debian.org Cc: debian-mentors@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:12 +0200 [...] Two months[1]. Still no email. Haven't seen him on IRC either. --- If you intend to followup, please don't. Just read the complete messages on lists.debian.org (I only cut down Roland's initial one signigicantly.) cu andreas PS: FWIW I think the nm-process is _really_ getting better, we just had 4 consecutive weeks with new maintainers getting DAM approval and JT formalizing how rejections work in the fifth week, making the process more transparent. -- Hey, da ist ein Ballonautomat auf der Toilette! Unofficial _Debian-packages_ of latest unstable _tin_ http://www.logic.univie.ac.at/~ametzler/debian/tin-snapshot/
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 04:01:47 +0800, Cameron Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: I think this should be clearly discussed. Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? I would have thought that the article mentioned would have gone a long way towards explaining the distaste. manoj -- The meek shall inherit the earth, but not its mineral rights. Paul Getty Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 10:13:53PM +0200, Peter Makholm wrote: And if you want to discusse anyway then please do it on debian-projects og maybe rather debian-couriosa where it belongs. I has nothing to do with developing Debian (the distribution). Why even waste debian bandwidth on it? Advogato has discussion boards. --Adam -- Adam McKenna [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 04:01:47 +0800 Cameron Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: | On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: | I think this should be clearly discussed. | | Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that | the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-mentors@lists.debian.org/msg09658.html http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-mentors@lists.debian.org/msg09753.html but google: debian DAM Eray Ozkural may help. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** : :' : Arnaud Vandyck `. `' http://alioth.debian.org/users/arnaud-guest/ `-http://alioth.debian.org/developer/diary.php?diary_user=2781 jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgplonashKN4I.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Thomas Hood, 2003-10-08 22:00:17 +0200 : On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: I think this should be clearly discussed. Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. I'll add that since I posted [1], [2] and [3], I got exactly one email from Eray, [4] (the very day I posted [1]). I am not aware that anybody else in Debian has heard any news about fixed packages coming from him. I'll probably continue my monthly reports for a few months, unless people yell at me for wasting a few kilobytes of their bandwidth a month. I don't feel like creating an account and getting familiar with advogato just to post a reply (there's still nothing personal between Eray and myself), but if anyone with some status there wants to cut-and-paste my prose, feel free to. I'd appreciate if you sent me the link if you do :-) [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2003/debian-mentors-200307/msg00252.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2003/debian-mentors-200308/msg00263.html [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2003/debian-mentors-200309/msg00317.html [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2003/debian-mentors-200307/msg00264.html Roland. -- Roland Mas Death *was* hereditary. You got it from your ancestors. -- in Hogfather (Terry Pratchett)
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
Well... After a little bit more research I found a good email about this in debian mentors. http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2003/debian-mentors-200307/msg00252.html Maybe this thread is not needed anymore. Sorry. []'s daniel Em Qua, 2003-10-08 às 16:25, Daniel Ruoso escreveu: I think this should be clearly discussed. Original link at: http://www.advogato.org/article/716.html QUOTE Debian and Democracy Posted 7 Oct 2003 by exa (Master) Two unrelated words. From experience. Now, what is the problem with debian? It's because debian claims to be democratic, but it isn't. It claims to be open, but it isn't open. It has a secret mailing list. And some guys who are in charge never change, like James Troup who is basically a village idiot. Now, in an open organization there are no dictators, but in debian there is. James Troup gets to decide who can get an account all by himself. Project leader changes, but he doesn't change. He is the administrator of everything. He is Mr. Debian. I'll make a summary for you guys who wonder what debian really is. 1. I volunteered to make some packages for debian. 2. I applied for an account 3. I got into a few flamewars in debian-devel 4. I had so many packages that it became too time consuming to deal with them without an account. 5. I waited for the account, it wasn't opened. (Because I must have pissed off Mr. Debian or one of his buddies) 6. I waited for many months, and wrote several times that I needed to account to do some meaningful work 7. Meanwhile James Troup, the idiot elmo of debian, told me you need to get 5 sponsors blah blah I found 4, but they scared out every 5th one! I was at a later time told that it was a way of rejecting my application by one of the other idiots. 8. It was 2 years of wait. 9. Then, some of them tell me well if you maintain your packages we'll consider the account. But I didn't back off from my position. I said I needed an account first. 9. Today these idiots write to me, we reject your application because you didn't maintain your packages and got into some flamewars. Well, for those who don't know debian lists have always been full of flamewars and I did apologize to people whom I had arguments with except a moron called Branden Robinson. I also heavily criticized James Troup because I thought he wasn't performing his duties. Anyway, it's obvious that he had a problem with me, and now I have a problem with him because his action confirms what I had suspected of him. So, why am I writing this? To cause these fools to write rebuttals full of poor rhetoric which are so typical of them? No. It's because I think the really enthusiastic members of debian project should find ways to make their project more open and more democratic. I don't want to contribute to the project any longer, if I had wanted I would have maintained my packages for the last 1.5 years despite that moron called elmo. I was frustrated by the issues I've summarized, so I decided to wait and see when this idiot would reject my application. Then, I could voice my opinion. Well, here it goes. /QUOTE P.S.: I'm in NM process for more than 1,5 years. I've requested for sponsor for packages, but got no answer. The last action was a phone call that (because of my not-so-good english) was a little pointless, and then I've got no answer again. I personally sent and email to DAM asking if I should ask again for sponsor or if should I wait to become a developer and I got no answer.
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 04:01:47AM +0800, Cameron Patrick wrote: On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: | Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that | the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Hmm. I've heard that name mentioned before on this mailing list, in conjunction with phrases like dick-head and will never be allowed into Debian. Presumably there's a good reason for this animosity towards him; would someone mind enlightening me as to why? http://people.debian.org/~rene/exa-log-24-07-2003 -- G. Branden Robinson| Q: How does a Unix guru have sex? Debian GNU/Linux | A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount; [EMAIL PROTECTED] |fsck;more;yes;fsck;fsck;fsck; http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |umount;sleep signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Quote: Debian and Democracy at Advocato.org
On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 09:42:42PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 21:25, Daniel Ruoso wrote: I think this should be clearly discussed. Just to prevent any confusion I'll just point out that the rant you quoted was authored by Eray Ozkural. Thanks, you saved me from reading this entire thread. -- Debian - http://www.debian.org/ Linux 1394 - http://www.linux1394.org/ Subversion - http://subversion.tigris.org/ WatchGuard - http://www.watchguard.com/
