Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-08-02 Thread Thorsten Glaser 
Lars Wirzenius dixit:

>  No other browser is available on the Amiga they're using as their only
>  computer, either.

lynx-cur, w3m and links2 are known-usable on Debian/m68k,
and I’m working on iceweasel currently (already submitted
one patch, another one coming soon) and webkit (also FTBFS,
will need patches).

Oh, and Ingo reported that the stock Debian sid kernel works
fine on his Amiga.

But yes, good list. While it may sound funny at first, I
believe all of them could happen…

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
  "Using Lynx is like wearing a really good pair of shades: cuts out
   the glare and harmful UV (ultra-vanity), and you feel so-o-o COOL."
 -- Henry Nelson, March 1999


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1208021201540.4...@herc.mirbsd.org

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Tollef Fog Heen 
]] Svante Signell 

> I have tried several times and I can give you a recent example, see
> #610209 and especially #669368. I have tried to contribute, but to no
> avail (at least in this case).

None of them are particularly relevant for the release, AFAICS?  As for
packaging them in experimental, yes, I could do that, but it's more
effort, etc and I have better places to spend that extra effort.
mlocate isn't a package which I'd be likely to stage in experimental for
some random changes.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/878ve52dmd@vuizook.err.no

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Tollef Fog Heen 
]] Michael Gilbert 

> True.  Part of the problem is appropriate terminology.  This is a case
> of what I would call an "undermaintained" package.  Even though the
> maintainer is still around, and may be quite active elsewhere, this
> package has not gotten any attention in 2 years (even though multiple
> upstreams have been released in the meantime).

They've mostly been translation updates, which aren't particularly
important.  Updating them, while nice, is hardly critical.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87a9yl2dsc@vuizook.err.no

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Vi, 27 iul 12, 09:52:41, Svante Signell wrote:
> 
> OK, I'll try to help with Wheezy. Where can I find the complete list of
> RC bugs?

You could start with rc-alert (in devscripts) and then continue with 
http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/

Hope this helps,
Andrei
-- 
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Neil Williams 
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 09:52:41 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-07-27 at 08:24 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
> > Look at the list of RC bugs and see if you can come up with anything
> > useful about the problem. There are enough of them, everyone should be
> > able to do something about some of them.
> 
> OK, I'll try to help with Wheezy. Where can I find the complete list of
> RC bugs?

Thanks!
:-)

$ rc-alert
(tells you about RC bugs in packages you actually have installed and
which, therefore you may care about / want fixed / be able to check if
the bug still exists). Part of the devscripts package.

http://www.debian.org/Bugs/

http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/

http://udd.debian.org/bugs.cgi

http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals

http://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS

http://wiki.debian.org/DropProblemPackages

http://qa.debian.org/

http://wiki.debian.org/BSP/BeginnersHOWTO

I'm sure there are plenty of other resources.

Maybe arrange a BSP yourself? (or encourage someone near you to arrange
it.)

Join #debian-bugs on IRC, maybe mentors.debian.net & associated list &
IRC channel if you're not familiar with changing packages - but fixing
RC bugs doesn't have to involve anything except interacting with the
BTS. Don't forget that leaf packages with no reverse dependencies can be
removed if that is the most appropriate way to deal with the RC bug
and asking for removal is an action on the BTS, not the package.

http://wiki.debian.org/ftpmaster_Removals

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.html#archive-manip

http://qa.debian.org/howto-remove.html

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/



pgpkfcys7W0cq.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Svante Signell 
On Fri, 2012-07-27 at 08:24 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:20:24 +0200
> Svante Signell  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:58 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > Michael Gilbert  writes:
> > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > ...
> > > > This would be a case where I think liberal NMUing would certainly be
> > > > appropriate (of course prior to the freeze).
> > > 
> > > Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
> > > any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
> > > rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.
> > 
> > Please, what can I do being a _contributor_ compared to  these "high
> > level package maintainers", except filing bug reports. Please advice a
> > stupid user who just wants to be using Debian as a GNU/* release(and
> > having recent software in them) .
> 
> Change tack.
> 
> Look at the list of RC bugs and see if you can come up with anything
> useful about the problem. There are enough of them, everyone should be
> able to do something about some of them.

OK, I'll try to help with Wheezy. Where can I find the complete list of
RC bugs?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343375561.16717.153.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-27 Thread Neil Williams 
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:20:24 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:58 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Michael Gilbert  writes:
> > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> ...
> > > This would be a case where I think liberal NMUing would certainly be
> > > appropriate (of course prior to the freeze).
> > 
> > Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
> > any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
> > rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.
> 
> Please, what can I do being a _contributor_ compared to  these "high
> level package maintainers", except filing bug reports. Please advice a
> stupid user who just wants to be using Debian as a GNU/* release(and
> having recent software in them) .

Change tack.

Look at the list of RC bugs and see if you can come up with anything
useful about the problem. There are enough of them, everyone should be
able to do something about some of them.

Can you reproduce it?

Can you identify anything about why it happens?

Can you clarify that it really is the fault of the specified package
and not due to some other package?

Can you add anything about workarounds or possible solutions?

Just reading the LONG list of RC bugs would be something. It would
occupy your time much more usefully than that little button marked
"Send".

Out of date packages in Wheezy *do not matter* because it's too late
now. Do something to help get Wheezy out by helping to fix RC bugs!

That will gain you merit which will be useful when we can do something
about new upstream releases - AFTER our own release.

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/



pgpC4YNOrKlVr.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Miles Bader 
I _knew_ Apple was behind this somehow!

-miles

-- 
Ocean, n. A body of water covering seven-tenths of a world designed for Man -
who has no gills.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/878ve5g5v9@catnip.gol.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Michael Gilbert  writes:

> If one sees a package that has not been uploaded in 2 years (or 6 months
> or however long), I think we should make it so that they can feel free
> to liberal NMU it with a 10-day delay.  If the maintainer was really
> planning to hold the package back for some reason, they can always
> cancel that (preferably with some kind of note as to why).

Yeah, that seems reasonable.  If people use it unreasonably, we can always
deal with that.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87zk6m9j0w@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Michael Gilbert 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> True.  Part of the problem is appropriate terminology.  This is a case
>> of what I would call an "undermaintained" package.  Even though the
>> maintainer is still around, and may be quite active elsewhere, this
>> package has not gotten any attention in 2 years (even though multiple
>> upstreams have been released in the meantime).
>
> Putting aside this specific example, I don't think the criteria you're
> using to evaluate whether a package is undermaintained is valid.  It's not
> always correct that maintainers should be blindly packaging every upstream
> release, and if upstream releases are minor and not important to Debian,
> it's perfectly reasonable to not prioritize that packaging among the
> various other things that one is doing.

Agreed.  It is more complicated than just length of time without an
upload, but that is a very straightforward quantity to look up and
keep track of.

If one sees a package that has not been uploaded in 2 years (or 6
months or however long), I think we should make it so that they can
feel free to liberal NMU it with a 10-day delay.  If the maintainer
was really planning to hold the package back for some reason, they can
always cancel that (preferably with some kind of note as to why).

Best wishes,
Mike


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MMn9Bz2S5AZAoSq=7jSt9-UXM26v5=syoswq3vxpvp...@mail.gmail.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Svante Signell  writes:
> On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:58 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
>> any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
>> rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.

> Please, what can I do being a _contributor_ compared to  these "high
> level package maintainers", except filing bug reports.

Take a deep breath, absorb the lesson that patience is vital when working
on volunteer projects, and realize that problems that you consider
critical are not necessarily prioritized that highly by other people.
(All useful for Debian developers too, for that matter.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/878ve6axwz@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Michael Gilbert 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:20 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
>> Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
>> any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
>> rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.
>
> Please, what can I do being a _contributor_ compared to  these "high
> level package maintainers", except filing bug reports. Please advice a
> stupid user who just wants to be using Debian as a GNU/* release(and
> having recent software in them) .

Anyone, anyone at all, can prepare an NMU (non-maintainer upload), but
non-DDs need to find a sponsor to do the actual upload (best
coordinated via mentors).  See:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.html#nmu
http://mentors.debian.net

Best wishes,
Mike


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mox5s0ciqohwd6z7natdpe++-tedxad4-jhcmca4xi...@mail.gmail.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:58 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Michael Gilbert  writes:
> > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
...
> > This would be a case where I think liberal NMUing would certainly be
> > appropriate (of course prior to the freeze).
> 
> Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
> any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
> rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.

Please, what can I do being a _contributor_ compared to  these "high
level package maintainers", except filing bug reports. Please advice a
stupid user who just wants to be using Debian as a GNU/* release(and
having recent software in them) .


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343344824.16717.148.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Michael Gilbert  writes:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> In this case, the maintainer is definitely not MIA.  Prompted by this
>> thread, I looked over the open bugs (and took the liberty of tagging a
>> couple since I was looking them over anyway), and they seem fairly
>> well-triaged to me and most have a maintainer response.

> True.  Part of the problem is appropriate terminology.  This is a case
> of what I would call an "undermaintained" package.  Even though the
> maintainer is still around, and may be quite active elsewhere, this
> package has not gotten any attention in 2 years (even though multiple
> upstreams have been released in the meantime).

Putting aside this specific example, I don't think the criteria you're
using to evaluate whether a package is undermaintained is valid.  It's not
always correct that maintainers should be blindly packaging every upstream
release, and if upstream releases are minor and not important to Debian,
it's perfectly reasonable to not prioritize that packaging among the
various other things that one is doing.

> This would be a case where I think liberal NMUing would certainly be
> appropriate (of course prior to the freeze).

Yeah, I guess that makes sense, *if* the person doing the NMU then owns
any bugs they introduce and of course doesn't do anything drastic like
rewriting the build system.  And provides plenty of warning.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87y5m6b044@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Michael Gilbert 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> While it's nice that you've prepared a package for the new mlocate
>> upstream version, getting it done after the freeze is simply far too
>> late.  Also, for packages that haven't been updated in a very long time
>> (two years in this case), a much better bet for a productive exchange is
>> to get it in front of -mentors instead of just the (possibly mia)
>> maintainer.
>
> In this case, the maintainer is definitely not MIA.  Prompted by this
> thread, I looked over the open bugs (and took the liberty of tagging a
> couple since I was looking them over anyway), and they seem fairly
> well-triaged to me and most have a maintainer response.

True.  Part of the problem is appropriate terminology.  This is a case
of what I would call an "undermaintained" package.  Even though the
maintainer is still around, and may be quite active elsewhere, this
package has not gotten any attention in 2 years (even though multiple
upstreams have been released in the meantime).

This would be a case where I think liberal NMUing would certainly be
appropriate (of course prior to the freeze).  It's not really
appropriate to forcefully remove the maintainer, but for volunteers
interested in the package, they should feel free to help improve it
while it is in its "undermaintained" state.

Best wishes,
Mike


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mpckjf_qv8vwkb4resz0j-cempo2wzq0kf0aasq-83...@mail.gmail.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Michael Gilbert  writes:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Svante Signell wrote:

>> I have tried several times and I can give you a recent example, see
>> #610209 and especially #669368. I have tried to contribute, but to no
>> avail (at least in this case).

> While it's nice that you've prepared a package for the new mlocate
> upstream version, getting it done after the freeze is simply far too
> late.  Also, for packages that haven't been updated in a very long time
> (two years in this case), a much better bet for a productive exchange is
> to get it in front of -mentors instead of just the (possibly mia)
> maintainer.

In this case, the maintainer is definitely not MIA.  Prompted by this
thread, I looked over the open bugs (and took the liberty of tagging a
couple since I was looking them over anyway), and they seem fairly
well-triaged to me and most have a maintainer response.  The only issue
with the package that I see at the moment is that there's a Hurd issue
solved by an upstream release, and another upstream fix that might be
relevant to Debian.  (The other upstream fixes are pretty minor.)  There's
some other pending work, which is mostly minor.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87txwup42i@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Michael Gilbert 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
>>  If a you see an out-of-date package, please volunteer your time to
>> help fix it.  If you're not a DD, you can do the work and send a
>> message to debian-mentors.
>
> I have tried several times and I can give you a recent example, see
> #610209 and especially #669368. I have tried to contribute, but to no
> avail (at least in this case).

While it's nice that you've prepared a package for the new mlocate
upstream version, getting it done after the freeze is simply far too
late.  Also, for packages that haven't been updated in a very long
time (two years in this case), a much better bet for a productive
exchange is to get it in front of -mentors instead of just the
(possibly mia) maintainer.

Best wishes,
Mike


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mmvhsrwgzlr_wx9-y7fryohgikfbghfxtjox3ujhmc...@mail.gmail.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Svante Signell  writes:
> On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:24 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote:

>> If a you see an out-of-date package, please volunteer your time to help
>> fix it.  If you're not a DD, you can do the work and send a message to
>> debian-mentors.

> I have tried several times and I can give you a recent example, see
> #610209 and especially #669368. I have tried to contribute, but to no
> avail (at least in this case).

I think a relevant question here (other than whether Tollef wants
co-maintainers and the fact that it's too late to be uploading new
versions for wheezy now anyway) is whether the project wants to allow NMUs
to fix Hurd issues (not *now*, obviously, but back in April or May).
Historically, my impression is that people didn't want the Hurd porters to
do that, or for others to do that on their behalf, on the grounds that
Hurd support is not yet (sufficiently) important to the project.

I admit to personally having also postponed making Hurd-specific fixes
until it was convenient for me rather than acting on them right away as I
would have for releaseable ports, but I'm trying to get better about that,
since I know it's demotivating for the Hurd porters.

Looking at the changelog, I wonder if the change in 0.24:

- Use /proc/self/mountinfo for bind mount detection; recent distributions
  symlink /etc/mtab to /proc/self/mounts, losing information we need.

is important for us, given that we're now symlinking /etc/mtab to
/proc/mounts.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k3xqqmzb@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 15:24 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Svante Signell wrote:
> > I can give a few examples of outdated packages having non-responsive
> > maintainers, wine is one of them. See the wishlist bugs! Finally a set
> > of NMUs solved that problem.
> 
> Pointing at wine at this point is a red herring.  A group of
> interested volunteers fixed it.  That's how these problems get solved.

I happened to be the bug submitter for the wine 1.2 series, #585409 it
is dated June 10 2010!

>  If a you see an out-of-date package, please volunteer your time to
> help fix it.  If you're not a DD, you can do the work and send a
> message to debian-mentors.

I have tried several times and I can give you a recent example, see
#610209 and especially #669368. I have tried to contribute, but to no
avail (at least in this case).

> We've also started various discussions and changes toward making it
> more straightforward to fix these types of situations.  e.g.:
> http://bugs.debian.org/681833

Good to know! Progress is being made.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343331891.16717.134.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Wookey 
+++ Svante Signell [2012-07-26 14:45 +0200]:
> On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:31 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> > 
> > There are a ton of reasons why Debian may have an older version of
> > an upstream release. For example, and I hasten to point out that
> > the following list is by no means exhaustive, and not all of the
> > possibilities are common:
> 
> Very informative reply, thank you very much!

One wonders if some posters recognise comedy when they see it :-)

Thank you Lars, it was a fine piece of work.

Now back to your normal programming of humourless pedants.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120726184810.gc16...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Russ Allbery 
Svante Signell  writes:

> Well there is experimental that could be used to package pre-releases
> and new releases to make them suitable for unstable and testing _before_
> the freeze!

Sure.  But that doesn't magically happen; someone has to actually do it.

> Add to that unresponsive package maintainers, refusing to package new
> versions of upstream software, even with wishlist bugs filed.

"Refusing" is a very confrontational way of putting this.  In my personal
experience, "refusing" is rare.  Nearly all of these cases are cases of a
volunteer not having time.  Filing a wishlist bug asking for the new
release is trivial; actually doing the work is sometimes not trivial at
all.

> There are people willing to package new releases, but they are blocked
> by the current package maintainer.

This gets a lot of attention and debate because it seems like a place
where we can Do Something, but I'm highly dubious that this is a
substantial percentage of the overall problem.  For every case where an
unresponsive maintainer is blocking forward progress, I'm fairly sure you
will find dozens, if not more, cases where there's just no one with both
the time and technical skills to do the work.

See, for example, the huge and growing list of RFH bugs where the
maintainer is explicitly asking for people to help and, by and large,
nothing is happening.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mx2msbqp@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors 
Jon Dowland  writes:
> I disagree.

Maybe my statement was overly general indeed. I certainly agree with

> There is work to be done to make Debian attract more contributors.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/84vchaps5g@sauna.l.org

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Jon Dowland 
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:20:23AM +0300, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> Svante Signell  writes:
> > NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made by
> > volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
> > distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?
> 
> The only way you can really improve the situation is to help with the
> packages.

I disagree.

Fundamentally the problem is lack of manpower. There are not enough
incoming people interested in addressing the problem (like Svante)
to make an appreciable difference if they dedicate their time soley
to packaging.

There is work to be done to make Debian attract more contributors.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120726130947.GC14409@debian

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 20:28 +0900, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Lars Wirzenius, le Thu 26 Jul 2012 10:31:24 +0100, a écrit :
> > * The new release is requested by insistent Hurd porters,
...
> I would just like to confirm that the Hurd porter team does *not*
> back Svante's request for new releases.  Even though we have already
> explained him several times why in general new versions are not well
> tested, etc. he seems to continue asking for them.

Again, this is not Hurd related, it is related to the subject: Outdated
packages in the next Debian release!

> Please consider that he is speaking on his own, do not take him as "the
> Hurd porters".  The Hurd porter team wants to avoid anything that would
> delay the release.

Of course I'm not talking about the Hurd here. And it is my personal
opinion, not related to the Hurd porter team, got it?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343307887.16717.126.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:31 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:02:10AM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > Well there is experimental that could be used to package pre-releases
> > and new releases to make them suitable for unstable and testing _before_
> > the freeze! 
...
> * The new release is requested by insistent Hurd porters, 

I can give a few examples of outdated packages having non-responsive
maintainers, wine is one of them. See the wishlist bugs! Finally a set
of NMUs solved that problem. And that package is not at all related to
Hurd. Wine does not even build there yet. Don't confuse my contributions
to the Hurd with my opinions on the Weezy release, please.

> > and the Debian
> >   package maintainer absolutely loathes the Hurd, and will refuse to
> >   upload any packages that work on the Hurd.
> > 

Things like that happens too, but is not related to the Wheezy release,
Hurd is not a release architecture, didn't you know that?


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343307773.16717.124.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Samuel Thibault 
Lars Wirzenius, le Thu 26 Jul 2012 13:46:40 +0100, a écrit :
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 08:28:34PM +0900, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Please consider that he is speaking on his own, do not take him as "the
> > Hurd porters".  The Hurd porter team wants to avoid anything that would
> > delay the release.
> 
> I apologize for implying that the Hurd porter team would do that. It
> was not my intention to do that, and I should have worded it differently.

Ok, good, thanks :)

Samuel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120726124835.GR4692@type

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Lars Wirzenius 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 08:28:34PM +0900, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Please consider that he is speaking on his own, do not take him as "the
> Hurd porters".  The Hurd porter team wants to avoid anything that would
> delay the release.

I apologize for implying that the Hurd porter team would do that. It
was not my intention to do that, and I should have worded it differently.

-- 
I wrote a book: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 10:31 +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:02:10AM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > Well there is experimental that could be used to package pre-releases
> > and new releases to make them suitable for unstable and testing _before_
> > the freeze! 
> > 
> > Add to that unresponsive package maintainers, refusing to package new
> > versions of upstream software, even with wishlist bugs filed. Take a
> > look at the age of some of these bug, both in time and release numbers. 
> > There are people willing to package new releases, but they are blocked
> > by the current package maintainer. That problem is maybe more related to
> > the d-d thread entitled: "Hijacking packages for fun and profit" BoF at
> > DebConf
> 
> There are a ton of reasons why Debian may have an older version of
> an upstream release. For example, and I hasten to point out that
> the following list is by no means exhaustive, and not all of the
> possibilities are common:

Very informative reply, thank you very much!


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343306757.16717.100.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Samuel Thibault 
Hello,

Lars Wirzenius, le Thu 26 Jul 2012 10:31:24 +0100, a écrit :
> * The new release is requested by insistent Hurd porters,

I would just like to confirm that the Hurd porter team does *not*
back Svante's request for new releases.  Even though we have already
explained him several times why in general new versions are not well
tested, etc. he seems to continue asking for them.

Please consider that he is speaking on his own, do not take him as "the
Hurd porters".  The Hurd porter team wants to avoid anything that would
delay the release.

> and the Debian
>   package maintainer absolutely loathes the Hurd, and will refuse to
>   upload any packages that work on the Hurd.

Samuel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120726112834.GO4692@type

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Lars Wirzenius 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:02:10AM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> Well there is experimental that could be used to package pre-releases
> and new releases to make them suitable for unstable and testing _before_
> the freeze! 
> 
> Add to that unresponsive package maintainers, refusing to package new
> versions of upstream software, even with wishlist bugs filed. Take a
> look at the age of some of these bug, both in time and release numbers. 
> There are people willing to package new releases, but they are blocked
> by the current package maintainer. That problem is maybe more related to
> the d-d thread entitled: "Hijacking packages for fun and profit" BoF at
> DebConf

There are a ton of reasons why Debian may have an older version of
an upstream release. For example, and I hasten to point out that
the following list is by no means exhaustive, and not all of the
possibilities are common:

* The Debian package maintainer is dead, but nobody noticed it yet, and
  nobody has wanted an update badly enough to do an NMU or to adopt the
  package.
* The upstream release is actually a fake. It's a trojan, which was
  put there by the NSA in order to infiltrate the CIA mainframe. The
  Debian package maintainer noticed this and uploaded that version of
  the package to non-free instead of main, since the trojan code does
  not come with proper source.
* Upstream has moved the RSS feed for new releases without notifying
  the old feed of the move, so the Debian package maintainer missed that,
  and doesn't actually know about the new release. Due to a complicated
  series of happenstance involving rainbows, midget unicorns, and the
  ongoing rewrite of the Netsurf web browser, the Debian package maintainer
  is not able to find the new feed because it would require doing a
  web search and their browser doesn't have working form support now.
  No other browser is available on the Amiga they're using as their only
  computer, either.
* The new release is requested by insistent Hurd porters, and the Debian
  package maintainer absolutely loathes the Hurd, and will refuse to
  upload any packages that work on the Hurd.
* The Debian package maintainer suffers from mental problems cause by
  reading debian-devel too much, and now has a nervous breakdown every
  time they recognize a name as someone whom they've seen on the list.
* The Debian development process is being sabotaged by Microsoft sending
  people to the developers' houses pretending to be TV license checkers
  or Jehova's witnesses every time they detect, using the hardware 
  wireless keylogger embeddded in every PC, that the developer is trying
  to run any Debian packaging command.
* Apple is also sabotaging Debian by paying me to write snarky e-mails on
  Debian mailing lists to distract everyone from working on the actual
  release, so that we can get past the freeze and start uploading things
  again without having to worry that it breaks things in ways that 
  makes the freeze longer.

-- 
I wrote a book: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 15:13 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Svante Signell  writes:
> 
> > I think this issue is very relevant to Wheezy. Why are there so many
> > outdated packages going into this release? The whole idea of unstable is
> > (to my understanding) to package the latest upstream releases, and get
> > the bugs squeezed out, right? And when the freeze happens, the latest
> > stable software is available to the next Debian release.
> 
> Yes.  And therefore you have just answered your own question.
> 
> Older software goes into the wheezy release because, at the time of the
> freeze, just as you said above, one of the following was true:
> 
> 1. The new release was not packaged for unstable.
> 2. The bugs weren't squeezed out in unstable before the freeze.
> 
> It's not particularly complicated, although of course fixing any one
> particular case where we want newer software can be quite complicated
> (because 1 and 2 both have to happen before the freeze).

Well there is experimental that could be used to package pre-releases
and new releases to make them suitable for unstable and testing _before_
the freeze! 

Add to that unresponsive package maintainers, refusing to package new
versions of upstream software, even with wishlist bugs filed. Take a
look at the age of some of these bug, both in time and release numbers. 
There are people willing to package new releases, but they are blocked
by the current package maintainer. That problem is maybe more related to
the d-d thread entitled: "Hijacking packages for fun and profit" BoF at
DebConf


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343293330.16717.99.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-25 Thread Russ Allbery 
Svante Signell  writes:

> I think this issue is very relevant to Wheezy. Why are there so many
> outdated packages going into this release? The whole idea of unstable is
> (to my understanding) to package the latest upstream releases, and get
> the bugs squeezed out, right? And when the freeze happens, the latest
> stable software is available to the next Debian release.

Yes.  And therefore you have just answered your own question.

Older software goes into the wheezy release because, at the time of the
freeze, just as you said above, one of the following was true:

1. The new release was not packaged for unstable.
2. The bugs weren't squeezed out in unstable before the freeze.

It's not particularly complicated, although of course fixing any one
particular case where we want newer software can be quite complicated
(because 1 and 2 both have to happen before the freeze).

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ipdbmqva@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-25 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-12 at 23:47 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> Adding debian-devel to the recipients. I think the question belongs
> there.
> 
> On Thu, 2012-07-12 at 21:39 +, Bart Martens wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:25:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2012-07-13 at 00:20 +0300, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> > > > Svante Signell  writes:
> > > > > NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made 
> > > > > by
> > > > > volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
> > > > > distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?
> > > > 
> > > > The only way you can really improve the situation is to help with the
> > > > packages.
> > > 
> > > I already have (with patches to bug reports), but becoming a Debian
> > > maintainer I have not yet applied for. Maybe doing some packaging, and
> > > ask for a sponsor will be a good way to get involved more, as a start. 
> > 
> > Yes, doing some packaging via a sponsor is a way to immediately start
> > contributing to Debian.
> 
> What to do if the maintainer is unresponsive? Ask somebody else to do
> the upload, or pinging the maintainer again? Alternatives (what about
> wine 1.2++)

I think this issue is very relevant to Wheezy. Why are there so many
outdated packages going into this release? The whole idea of unstable is
(to my understanding) to package the latest upstream releases, and get
the bugs squeezed out, right? And when the freeze happens, the latest
stable software is available to the next Debian release. Or is this
reasoning completely wrong? Please tell if the Debian goals are
different from the above. Maybe I have misunderstood the whole idea of
Debian experimental/sid/testing/stable.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1343252564.16717.78.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-12 Thread Svante Signell 
Adding debian-devel to the recipients. I think the question belongs
there.

On Thu, 2012-07-12 at 21:39 +, Bart Martens wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:25:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-07-13 at 00:20 +0300, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> > > Svante Signell  writes:
> > > > NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made by
> > > > volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
> > > > distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?
> > > 
> > > The only way you can really improve the situation is to help with the
> > > packages.
> > 
> > I already have (with patches to bug reports), but becoming a Debian
> > maintainer I have not yet applied for. Maybe doing some packaging, and
> > ask for a sponsor will be a good way to get involved more, as a start. 
> 
> Yes, doing some packaging via a sponsor is a way to immediately start
> contributing to Debian.

What to do if the maintainer is unresponsive? Ask somebody else to do
the upload, or pinging the maintainer again? Alternatives (what about
wine 1.2++)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1342129673.4582.41.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-12 Thread Paul Wise 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Svante Signell wrote:

> Now when Wheezy is about to be released I would like to raise an issue.
> How come that there are still so many outdated packages becoming part
> of Wheezy. Some package maintainers are very responsive in upgrading to
> new upstream releases, others are having packages several years old.

Yet another thread about this decade old "issue" is not really going
to help the release, since it takes time for reading it away from
potential RC bug fixing time.

Folks who are interested in avoiding reading threads like this might
be interested in the tool being discussed in this event at DebConf12:

http://penta.debconf.org/dc12_schedule/events/951.en.html

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6HfOoeaju1vA7oW4e00A9-PKCSQLzKyD1ORm=t+csh...@mail.gmail.com

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-12 Thread Svante Signell 
On Fri, 2012-07-13 at 00:20 +0300, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> Svante Signell  writes:
> > NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made by
> > volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
> > distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?
> 
> The only way you can really improve the situation is to help with the
> packages.

I already have (with patches to bug reports), but becoming a Debian
maintainer I have not yet applied for. Maybe doing some packaging, and
ask for a sponsor will be a good way to get involved more, as a start. 



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1342128347.4582.31.camel@x60

Re: RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-12 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors 
Svante Signell  writes:
> NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made by
> volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
> distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?

The only way you can really improve the situation is to help with the
packages.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/84fw8w4qy0@sauna.l.org

RFC: Why are so many debian packages outdated?

2012-07-12 Thread Svante Signell 
Hello,

Now when Wheezy is about to be released I would like to raise an issue.
How come that there are still so many outdated packages becoming part
of Wheezy. Some package maintainers are very responsive in upgrading to
new upstream releases, others are having packages several years old.

Something is not OK, compared to other distributions, why releasing
outdated upstream software (I'm not thinking about essential packages
here). Yes, I know about the rock solid stability, that's appreciated!.
But it should also reflect current software. gcc-4.7 is a good example
of current software (it will part of squeeze even if there were a lot
of complaints recently...)

The Debian package maintainer system is maybe too old-fashioned? Or more
NMUs should be made/allowed/encouraged? I know all packaging is made by
volunteers at their spare time, but anyway. Debian is one of the best
distributions, what about raising the bar a little higher?








-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1342127161.4582.26.camel@x60