Python 3 as default? (Re: Python2.6 as default)
Hi, On Tuesday 12 April 2011 01.22:55 Scott Kitterman wrote: The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy. Agreed. However, it would be interesting to track which of the bg/major python packages/frameworks are not available on Python3 yet, if only as a reference for the next time somebody proposes to have /usr/bin/python be a Python 3. http://wiki.debian.org/Python/Python3Packages It's not complete by far, but I guess the fact that django, a big part of zope and pylons are all three not available for Python 3 yet (upstream, not only packages) should serve to illustrate the point. cheers -- vbi -- Jetzt ist der Herr Bush Präsident, und weil ihm wieder langweilig ist, will er endlich den Saddam loswerden. Der Herr Bush hat nämlich keine Praktikantin. -- http://bush.d0t.de/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Python 3 as default? (Re: Python2.6 as default)
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 08:46, Adrian von Bidder avbid...@fortytwo.ch wrote: Agreed. However, it would be interesting to track which of the bg/major python packages/frameworks are not available on Python3 yet, if only as a reference for the next time somebody proposes to have /usr/bin/python be a Python 3. http://wiki.debian.org/Python/Python3Packages It's not complete by far, but I guess the fact that django, a big part of zope and pylons are all three not available for Python 3 yet (upstream, not only packages) should serve to illustrate the point. http://py3ksupport.appspot.com/ http://getpython3.net/ -- Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu) My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/ Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktinxv2i1pgcorjci04u6nh_o9q1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Python 3 as default? (Re: Python2.6 as default)
[Adrian von Bidder, 2011-04-13] Agreed. However, it would be interesting to track which of the bg/major python packages/frameworks are not available on Python3 yet, if only as a reference for the next time somebody proposes to have /usr/bin/python be a Python 3. http://wiki.debian.org/Python/Python3Packages please use http://wiki.python.org/moin/PortingToPy3k/Modules instead -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413072800.ge19...@piotro.eu
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy. I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point. At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely we have no plans to port to Python 3, it's now quite common to hear we have an experimental branch to support it or people are working on it. So I do think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping with a transition to Python 3. Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan. Cheers, -Barry [*] and by we I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:22:44 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy. I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point. At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely we have no plans to port to Python 3, it's now quite common to hear we have an experimental branch to support it or people are working on it. So I do think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping with a transition to Python 3. Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan. Cheers, -Barry [*] and by we I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian. If by default you mean something like the version we normally use, then I agree. If you mean pointing /usr/bin/python at a python3 version, I don't. Taking that step is not just about what's in the archive, it's about the stacks and stacks of small python scripts that are used everywhere, but never published. Changing /usr/bin/python to be python3 is something I think happens about one release before we remove python2 entirely. I don't think that's where we'll be in two years. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201104130937.35999.deb...@kitterman.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
Scott Kitterman wrote: On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:22:44 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy. I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point. At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely we have no plans to port to Python 3, it's now quite common to hear we have an experimental branch to support it or people are working on it. So I do think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping with a transition to Python 3. Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan. Cheers, -Barry [*] and by we I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian. If by default you mean something like the version we normally use, then I agree. If you mean pointing /usr/bin/python at a python3 version, I don't. Taking that step is not just about what's in the archive, it's about the stacks and stacks of small python scripts that are used everywhere, but never published. Changing /usr/bin/python to be python3 is something I think happens about one release before we remove python2 entirely. I don't think that's where we'll be in two years. Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something like: python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2 instead (or convert them to python3). Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413094233.f87b2d8c.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
[Michael Gilbert, 2011-04-13] Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something like: python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2 instead (or convert them to python3). IMO we can change /usr/bin/python to point to python3 once Python 2.X will no longer be supported by Debian, not sooner (as local scripts with #!/usr/bin/python shebang would stop working anyway) -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413135136.gi19...@piotro.eu
Re: Python2.6 as default
Piotr Ożarowski wrote: [Michael Gilbert, 2011-04-13] Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something like: python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2 instead (or convert them to python3). IMO we can change /usr/bin/python to point to python3 once Python 2.X will no longer be supported by Debian, not sooner (as local scripts with #!/usr/bin/python shebang would stop working anyway) I think it makes more sense to have a release or two where users can fall back on python2. Well there needs to be at least one where /usr/bin/python becomes python3 alerting users to the change and giving them the python2 fallback, just so they have time to be prepared for the permanent change. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110413100036.f1a7a623.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Michael Gilbert wrote: I think it makes more sense to have a release or two where users can fall back on python2. Well there needs to be at least one where /usr/bin/python becomes python3 alerting users to the change and giving them the python2 fallback, just so they have time to be prepared for the permanent change. I do agree that we could add the python2 symlink now so that folks who want to prepare can start changing their #! lines to use /usr/bin/python2. Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Apr 09, 2011, at 01:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: We've treated python and python3 as separate runtime environments. We also have a default python3 (just in the middle of transitioning to 3.2). The only meaningful change that would make python3 the 'default python' is if we pointed /usr/bin/python at it. It is definitely premature to do that. If we ever contemplate such a change is will be several releases from now. Just as a point of reference, there is a new PEP concerning recommendations from upstream Python: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Python2.6 as default
Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: On Apr 09, 2011, at 01:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: We've treated python and python3 as separate runtime environments. We also have a default python3 (just in the middle of transitioning to 3.2). The only meaningful change that would make python3 the 'default python' is if we pointed /usr/bin/python at it. It is definitely premature to do that. If we ever contemplate such a change is will be several releases from now. Just as a point of reference, there is a new PEP concerning recommendations from upstream Python: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy. It's certainly not anything we should let affect Debian Python until after it's approved. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a6172524-293a-444d-b6dd-7316e9411...@email.android.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
* Scott Kitterman (deb...@kitterman.com) [110409 19:07]: Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed. Sure. Please feel free to fix that. Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110409172612.gd15...@mails.so.argh.org
Re: Python2.6 as default
Scott Kitterman wrote: I noticed that this is still listed at http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals. Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed. Is it out of the question to target python3.x as the default? wheezy's release is still 2 years away, so there's a lot of time to fix potential complications. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110409133301.067a077f.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Saturday, April 09, 2011 01:33:01 PM Michael Gilbert wrote: Scott Kitterman wrote: I noticed that this is still listed at http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals. Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed. Is it out of the question to target python3.x as the default? wheezy's release is still 2 years away, so there's a lot of time to fix potential complications. We've treated python and python3 as separate runtime environments. We also have a default python3 (just in the middle of transitioning to 3.2). The only meaningful change that would make python3 the 'default python' is if we pointed /usr/bin/python at it. It is definitely premature to do that. If we ever contemplate such a change is will be several releases from now. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201104091338.22062.deb...@kitterman.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Saturday, April 09, 2011 01:26:12 PM Andreas Barth wrote: * Scott Kitterman (deb...@kitterman.com) [110409 19:07]: Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed. Sure. Please feel free to fix that. Andi Done. http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/Python2.7 Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201104091349.17437.deb...@kitterman.com
Re: Python2.6 as default
On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 13:49:17 -0400, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: On Saturday, April 09, 2011 01:26:12 PM Andreas Barth wrote: * Scott Kitterman (deb...@kitterman.com) [110409 19:07]: Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed. Sure. Please feel free to fix that. Andi Done. http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/Python2.7 Scott K I think that's best. Python itself treats 2.x and 3.x separately, so we should as well (at least until development of 2.x stops). -- Michael Checca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.vton7jg44b8ft1@michael-laptop
