Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
[Joey Hess] Probably making the print server task install it instead of lpr, which would have a side effect of making sure it's on CD#1 if it's not already. Probably also demoting the lpr package to optional and moving cups from there to standard. Possibly making lsb depend on part of cups instead of lpr. This is probably a good start. I suspect debootstrap need to be changed as well, but haven't checked if it will install any printer service or not.
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Sat, Aug 02, 2003 at 02:51:53AM -0500, Joe Wreschnig wrote: For the vast majority of situations, it's incredibly easier to configure, and usually more reliable about output, than lprng. Implying that there are circumstances where CUPS will produce valid output, and lprng will not? I'm interested. Examples, please. -- Marc Wilson | Old programmers never die, they just hit account [EMAIL PROTECTED] | block limit. pgphd3U8NKqMo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Sun, 2003-08-03 at 01:44, Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Aug 02, 2003 at 02:51:53AM -0500, Joe Wreschnig wrote: For the vast majority of situations, it's incredibly easier to configure, and usually more reliable about output, than lprng. Implying that there are circumstances where CUPS will produce valid output, and lprng will not? I'm interested. Examples, please. Having not used lprng in over 3 year, I can't come up with any examples off the top of my head. I think you're primarily objecting to my characterization of these bugs as lprng bugs, rather than filter bugs, which is what they probably actually were. However, from the perspective of J. Random Enduser, it doesn't matter if the bug is in the filter or the print server; if it doesn't print (or prints with garbage), it doesn't print. I'm sure if I had spent many, many more hours configuring filters for lprng (I used apsfilter for some time with Slackware, and then changed magicfilter shortly after moving to Debian), I could've gotten the same quality of output with these that I got with CUPS after about 5 minutes with its web interface. -- Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:52:04PM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: As a random reply... deleted However, I am biased, as I package the GNOME CUPS packages... :) And as a random comment, it's really sad that a printing system would have any sort of dependency whatsoever on Gnome (or KDE, for that matter). Hopefully it's only UI nonsense (although I freely admit that I'm not about to install it to find out). -- Marc Wilson | Ya'll hear about the geometer who went to the beach [EMAIL PROTECTED] | to catch some rays and became a tangent ? pgplZ3BBM9ypM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 23:31, Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:52:04PM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: However, I am biased, as I package the GNOME CUPS packages... :) And as a random comment, it's really sad that a printing system would have any sort of dependency whatsoever on Gnome (or KDE, for that matter). Which is why CUPS doesn't. CUPS is configurable via ordinary text configuration files like most Unix programs, a web interface (which is what I use), GNOME or KDE frontends, probably a number of miscelleaneous toolkit frontends, too... Personally, I'm surprised there's still people with printers who *haven't* tried CUPS. For the vast majority of situations, it's incredibly easier to configure, and usually more reliable about output, than lprng. -- Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
* Joe Wreschnig ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030802 10:05]: CUPS is configurable via ordinary text configuration files like most Unix programs, a web interface (which is what I use), GNOME or KDE frontends, probably a number of miscelleaneous toolkit frontends, too... Personally, I'm surprised there's still people with printers who *haven't* tried CUPS. For the vast majority of situations, it's incredibly easier to configure, and usually more reliable about output, than lprng. I failed configuring CUPS for my rather simple setup here, and so I switched to LPRng. (Perhaps the HOWTO for the text interface was just too bad, I don't know. Printer is a HP Laserjet 4L, and CUPS is that of woody. LPRng did go to working instantly.) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 11:35:13AM -0700, Keegan Quinn wrote: FWIW, I've had very good experiences with the CUPS in unstable, so I'd not object to this. OTOH, installing it without it being 'default' is already quite trivial. What would this change entail, exactly? So i had/have either in unstable and in stable. Should exim not to be the default MTA, it would be trivial to install too. This is not the point: the point is that CUPS is perfectly working for most of us and shows really a lot of good features, a user-friendly interface, quite large number of direvers support. It is a good solution for any user level with most common printers/needs, thus it should be the default (IMHO). ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language. pgp8IiEFCw2jg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On pe, 2003-08-01 at 12:32, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: It is a good solution for any user level with most common printers/needs, thus it should be the default (IMHO). Do we actually need a default print service at all? Mail is much more fundamental, for example, but lots of computers these days don't have a printer attached at all. -- Debian developers for gentleness.
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 02:49:59PM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: Do we actually need a default print service at all? Mail is much more fundamental, for example, but lots of computers these days don't have a printer attached at all. We needn't install a print service by default but if someone says that want one we ought to have a default to offer them. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
Keegan Quinn wrote: FWIW, I've had very good experiences with the CUPS in unstable, so I'd not object to this. OTOH, installing it without it being 'default' is already quite trivial. What would this change entail, exactly? Probably making the print server task install it instead of lpr, which would have a side effect of making sure it's on CD#1 if it's not already. Probably also demoting the lpr package to optional and moving cups from there to standard. Possibly making lsb depend on part of cups instead of lpr. -- see shy jo, following this discussion with interest and his tasksel hat on pgppk4AHwmPay.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 09:44:17AM -0400, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote: The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. On the other hand, while lprng was anything but user-friendly, it was simple and well-documented. Much more important to have something that works before you go making it user-friendly! Care to give more details? Which printer? How was it connected? How did you try to setup CUPS? Even if I don't think the CUPS documentation is superb, for the setups I have had to deal with (anything but trivial) it was adequate, and the only thing I really that to read about what the IPP name service conventions. Marcelo
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 03:38:55PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: I believe it would be a good idea if the default print system in the next release of Debian (Sarge) is changed to CUPS. CUPS is a more complete, more userfriendly and RFC complient printing system. URL:http://www.cups.org Any reason not to change the default? The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. On the other hand, while lprng was anything but user-friendly, it was simple and well-documented. Much more important to have something that works before you go making it user-friendly! -- Daniel Jacobowitz MontaVista Software Debian GNU/Linux Developer
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 14:44, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote: The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. On the other hand, while lprng was anything but user-friendly, it was simple and well-documented. Much more important to have something that works before you go making it user-friendly! As a random reply, I've found CUPS to be easy to admin and maintain. There are actual documented APIs for accessing the print queue and spooler, and printing worked first time, even when printing on an inkjet printer on a Win98 box being shared across SMB. http://www.cups.org/documentation.php lists plenty of documentation, which is generally quite good IMHO. However, I am biased, as I package the GNOME CUPS packages... :) Ross -- Ross Burton mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
Le Thu, Jul 31, 2003, à 09:44:17AM -0400, Daniel Jacobowitz a écrit: The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. Well, while what you describe more or less matches the experience I had with CUPS 18 months ago, I don't think it still applies today (with the sarge binaries). Maybe one could charge CUPS with eating a little bit too much memory, or that funnelling the contents of linuxprinting.org[*] to enhance the foomatic-db isn't exactly user-friendly, but save from this, I find it very nice (even if I'm mostly using its lpr-compatible command-line interface. aaah, if only gnome-cups-manager wasn't leaking memory like a CPU leaks heat...) -- Cyrille [*] for a HP Photosmart 7150. --
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 03:38:55PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: I believe it would be a good idea if the default print system in the next release of Debian (Sarge) is changed to CUPS. CUPS is a more complete, more userfriendly and RFC complient printing system. URL:http://www.cups.org Any reason not to change the default? The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. On the other hand, while lprng was anything but user-friendly, it was simple and well-documented. Much more important to have something that works before you go making it user-friendly! FWIW, I've tried it once, with total success, and been shocked at how easy it was. No hassle at all. Then again, printing to a local HP LaserJet isn't exactly a complicated task. I did wonder where lpr and lpq had gone, but they were in the cupsys-bsd package. A
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:52:04PM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 14:44, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote: The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful. Very pretty, less functional; and the documentation was entirely inadequate. On the other hand, while lprng was anything but user-friendly, it was simple and well-documented. Much more important to have something that works before you go making it user-friendly! As a random reply, I've found CUPS to be easy to admin and maintain. There are actual documented APIs for accessing the print queue and spooler, and printing worked first time, even when printing on an inkjet printer on a Win98 box being shared across SMB. http://www.cups.org/documentation.php lists plenty of documentation, which is generally quite good IMHO. However, I am biased, as I package the GNOME CUPS packages... :) My perception was that CUPS suffers from ignoring the Unix philosophy - it only seems to work with CUPS printer drivers. There isn't one for my printer. There's a ghostscript driver, and damned if I could make foomatic work with an arbitrary ghostscript driver it didn't already know about. Maze of twisty little configuration files, all useless. I may be the only one, but I find printcap convenient. I may need a man page or example every time I touch it, but I know right where everything is! -- Daniel Jacobowitz MontaVista Software Debian GNU/Linux Developer
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 15:00, Cyrille Chepelov wrote: if only gnome-cups-manager wasn't leaking memory like a CPU leaks heat...) Terribly sorry about this. It's only gnome-cups-icon which leaks like mad, so you can kill that and use eggcups instead (looks almost identical). I'll be removing eggcups once the memory leak issue is fixed. Unfortunately the gnome-cups-maintainer has gone on holiday and I don't have time at the moment to learn the details of the CUPS API. Ross -- Ross Burton mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
Le Thu, Jul 31, 2003, à 03:09:15PM +0100, Ross Burton a écrit: On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 15:00, Cyrille Chepelov wrote: if only gnome-cups-manager wasn't leaking memory like a CPU leaks heat...) Terribly sorry about this. It's only gnome-cups-icon which leaks like mad, so you can kill that and use eggcups instead (looks almost identical). Well, the laserjet 1100 is noisy enough that I know it has stuff in its queue, and I use the Photosmart seldom enough that I don't mind lpstat'ing when I really need a status report (in the long run, I don't mind if the cups-icon gets fixed, but people tend to become crazy if they don't get some fresh air from time to time -- at least I know why there's no activity on that bug for the moment) -- Cyrille -- pgpBoGj97kBam.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 03:38:55PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: I believe it would be a good idea if the default print system in the next release of Debian (Sarge) is changed to CUPS. CUPS is a more complete, more userfriendly and RFC complient printing system. FWIW, I've had very good experiences with the CUPS in unstable, so I'd not object to this. OTOH, installing it without it being 'default' is already quite trivial. What would this change entail, exactly? Just my non-DD US$0.02. - Keegan pgpD9zk1xuo7I.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
Hi Cyrille! You wrote: I'm mostly using its lpr-compatible command-line interface. So am I. To bad it isn't lpr compatible at all (at least not lprng-lpr). -- Kind regards, ++ | Bas Zoetekouw | GPG key: 0644fab7 | || Fingerprint: c1f5 f24c d514 3fec 8bf6 | | [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | a2b1 2bae e41f 0644 fab7 | ++
Re: CUPS should be the default print service in Debian/Sarge
Bas Zoetekouw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So am I. To bad it isn't lpr compatible at all (at least not lprng-lpr). Well, lprng isn't lpr... but if there are clienty things you want, you could probably use lprng's clients with CUPS's lpr server. -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. He's so sadistic, he put quicksand in the litter box.
