Re: Debian and the desktop

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-12-12 17:36:15, schrieb Roberto C. Sanchez:

> Better yet, we should make WindowMaker the only window manager in
> Debian.  Down with GNOME and KDE!
> 
> Does it show that I am a WindowMaker fan? :-)

:-P

fvwm is better using it since Slink

As a Debian Consultant I have customized it for more
then 70 enterprises in France and Germany...

It works like the heaven...

> -Roberto

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #
Michelle Konzack   Apt. 917  ICQ #328449886
   50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France   IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

Josselin Mouette wrote:

[Permissions on device nodes]


Currently, there are two ways of handling this situation:
- The Debian way, where this is controlled by Unix groups, and where the
default user belongs to these groups. Your message seems to imply the
opposite, and I welcome you to install a sarge system and try plugging a
USB stick or playing sound.


This means that I have access to those devices even as a remote user, 
which is almost certainly not what anyone on a true multiuser system wants.



- The Redhat way, using pam_console. The user logging in gains rights on
some devices. The problem is that when the user logs out, there's no way
to force her to release the rights acquired. This is a limitation of the
Linux kernel, which cannot revoke privileges. AFAIK, that's why it isn't
used by default in Debian.


But would be a lot better than unconditionally granting access.

The "there is no way to revoke that" problem has an obvious solution: Go 
through a system service. The kernel is not the place to make or enforce 
policy, as it will not fit all use cases (and this is exactly what we're 
seeing here).



If you want things to move, you should provide a framework for the
kernel to handle a new revocation system call - far from an easy task.


I think it can and needs to be done in userspace.

[wireless configuration]


Some desktop tools doing that exist, but they seriously lack integration
in Debian.


I think they seriously lack integration period.

The overall trend on Linux in the last years has made it become an 
open-source Windows, with a lot of bloated applications fighting over 
the last 100 MiB of memory and a lot of "works for me" kind of 
solutions. Kernel capabilities have been misunderstood as a way to grant 
limited privileges to users, while in fact they are meant as a way to 
remove privileges from system services that do not need them.


   Simon


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian menu entries(was Re: Debian and the desktop)

[Linas Zvirblis]

Eduardo Silva wrote:


As a lurker to debian-devel, I would like to point to
all a deficiency in the current KDE way of naming
menus, and hope that if Debian menu goes this way, it
should improve on it.


There is currently a discussion about improving Debian Menu at 
debian-policy mailing list, but it does not go that far.


Debian menu already handles package descriptions. What is does not do is 
internationalization. Support for internationalized entries would allow 
KDE and GNOME to drop separate menus and incorporate Debian Menu 
directly (what I consider the right thing to do). Of course all of this 
requires a lot of work from Debian Devs, so this is only theory so far.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian menu entries(was Re: Debian and the desktop)

[Peter Nuttall]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 10:23:54PM -0800, Eduardo Silva wrote:
> As a lurker to debian-devel, I would like to point to
> all a deficiency in the current KDE way of naming
> menus, and hope that if Debian menu goes this way, it
> should improve on it.
> 
> The current way KDE names programs is:
> Type of Program (Application name)
> 
> So, for amarok it's:
> Audio Player (amarok)
> 
> I find this actually bad, because it's almost a new
> hierachy in the menu (one that Debian menu actually
> has, I think). On the other hand, if the Gnome way was
> used, it would be better, since it makes sense in
> english:
> 
> Amarok Audio Player
> Name of the app + program type.
> 
> But the position of program type should change
> acording to the language used.
> 
> When using KDE in portuguese, it actually becomes
> correct in syntax, although the parentesis () stops
> making sense:
> 
> Leitor de ?udio (amarok)
> 
> So, my sugestion is, if this is done in Debian menu,
> the position of the application type is moved before
> or after the application type, according to the
> language use and without the use of parethesis:
> 
> English: Amarok Audio Player
> Portuguese: Leitor de ?udio Amarok
> 
> Eduardo
> 
> P.S.-Could you CC: me any replies? I'll also keep an
> eye on the list archive site, for possible replies.
> 
> OH MY ... http://www.geocities.com/jobezone/index.html
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>

I think that " type (name)  " is how KDE do it. In kcontrol you can
change it to Name (description). On my test box GNOME doesn't seem show
the type infomation. I have no real views on how Debian should do it,
since I change most things to suit me. 

Pete


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Debian menu entries(was Re: Debian and the desktop)

[Eduardo Silva]

As a lurker to debian-devel, I would like to point to
all a deficiency in the current KDE way of naming
menus, and hope that if Debian menu goes this way, it
should improve on it.

The current way KDE names programs is:
Type of Program (Application name)

So, for amarok it's:
Audio Player (amarok)

I find this actually bad, because it's almost a new
hierachy in the menu (one that Debian menu actually
has, I think). On the other hand, if the Gnome way was
used, it would be better, since it makes sense in
english:

Amarok Audio Player
Name of the app + program type.

But the position of program type should change
acording to the language used.

When using KDE in portuguese, it actually becomes
correct in syntax, although the parentesis () stops
making sense:

Leitor de Áudio (amarok)

So, my sugestion is, if this is done in Debian menu,
the position of the application type is moved before
or after the application type, according to the
language use and without the use of parethesis:

English: Amarok Audio Player
Portuguese: Leitor de Áudio Amarok

Eduardo

P.S.-Could you CC: me any replies? I'll also keep an
eye on the list archive site, for possible replies.

OH MY ... http://www.geocities.com/jobezone/index.html

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Miles Bader]

Sune Vuorela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Why try to make kde and gnome look the same?

Well I don't know about other people, but for me it's partly a reaction
to the "branding" Gnome and KDE already try to do.  I personally run a
mostly gnome env because I like some of the apps, but I don't feel any
particular loyalty to the Gnome project, and don't really like constant
reminders "Hi!  You're using Gnome!"; If there's going to be any overt
branding going on, I'd rather it be debian's.

-miles
-- 
My spirit felt washed.  With blood.  [Eli Shin, on "The Passion of the Christ"]


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2005-12-12, Linas Zvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A user should get the same visual feeling whether he chose GNOME or KDE 
> for his desktop, whether he decided for KDM or GDM etc. This might sound 

Why try to make kde and gnome look the same?
If it is a goal to make all Bob User desktops look the same, then why
not just skipping either gnome or kde ?

Why not try to give the possibility to Bob User and others to make their
desktops look cool instead of making it look the same ?

> Every major distribution has that little something (be it only a default 
> wallpaper) that makes it what it is (navy blue Mandriva, brownish 
> Ubuntu)
bluish kubuntu.

That leaves debian for 
greenish
yellowish
silver
red
pink

okay. let us make debian pink ;)

or silverish:
http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=21420

or black and nerdish (contains a semi-naked girl, so might not be
worksafe)
http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=32139

I like the fact that that my programs visibility feeling are so
untouched by debian as possible.
I want to paint my own apartment ;)

/Sune
Bob User, who is working on being Bob Hacker


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

Andreas Schuldei wrote:


so where can i have a look at this? could it please be put up
somewhere on the web?


The package is called wmaker. It is in Debian.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:


What are you talking about Debian Style?


Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".


The desktop-base package was supposed to address exactly that problem,
but there was not a lot of interest in the KDE and GNOME teams to
actually work on that.


Maybe they simply need someone to provide them with the artwork? Would 
accepting an official default wallpaper (also GDM and KDM themes) be a 
problem? I am sure there are a lot of people out there (including 
myself) that would gladly do the dirty (art)work.



I think we have managed to create some feeling on the GNOME front,
though, with a default desktop and customized splash screen. GDM lacks
integration, though.


The artwork used in GNOME is probably too dark. On an old dark monitor 
the details are almost invisible. Just a bit of my personal experience.


Every major distribution has that little something (be it only a default 
wallpaper) that makes it what it is (navy blue Mandriva, brownish 
Ubuntu), so if desktop is the goal for Debian, it should also have that.


That'd be something, but there's much more that we should think about.
This is just the top of the iceberg.


That is the whole point. People that are already busy with some other 
work should not be bothered about something that can be done independently.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Thomas Viehmann]

Hi,

thanks for your comments.

Bill Allombert wrote:
> But there are another way: KDE and GNOME provide a non-Debian menu.
> However there are no clear definition about what should go in this menu.
> Maybe the policy could be to only put in this menu the applications
> relevant to "Bob User" and keep the Debian menu to "Bob Hacker". This
> might be a simpler way to get the same results.
This could be a very good idea.

One of the things that are probably impossible without a decider (which
is one of the things that many Debian derivatives have and Debian does)
to single out one package for a purpose (e.g. one word processor) to
include in a simple default install/menu. Having a dozen entries with
"Text Editor" denoting applications from gedit to emacs is probably not
too cool.

As I'm into specific and possible things, though (and have two 1-item
categories in my gnome menu which I can file bugs about but maybe
maintainers should be helped to get this right):
- how about linda/lintian check for empty longtitle in menu files
  and comment in .desktop files.
  (this is used as a hint (shown when the mouse hovers over the menu
  entry) in the Debian/Gnome/KDE(?) menu)
- a linda/lintian check for categories in .desktop to match
  with freedesktop.org's register [1]
- mention .desktops in some Debian packaging documentation (which one)
  to point people to the freedesktop.org documents [2] (I missed the
  category register at first), saying something about how binding
  that is and implement some further checks in lintian
- maybe standardize on the .desktop locations

Kind regards

T.

P.S.: Could someone give me a pointer about moving to .desktop and why
it is/was considered a bad idea? (Or if it's just a not worth it/noone
has time issue...) It seems burdenful for maintainers to provide both
and they're not always well synced (I noticed that emacs21's .desktop
comment used as hint in the Gnome menu was meaningful whereas the menu
file lacked a longtitle that is used as hint in the Debian menu.)

1. http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
2. http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/
   http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/
-- 
Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Andreas Schuldei]

* Linas Zvirblis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-12-15 00:02:01]:

> David Nusinow wrote:
> 
> >>>What are you talking about Debian Style?
> >>
> >>Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
> >>All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".
> >
> >Check out the windowmaker package. It has (or had as of a few years ago) a
> >beautiful Debian theme complete with a very nice wallpaper. Creating
> >similar themes for other window managers and desktop environments would be
> >great.
> 
> I looked into it. Is indeed interesting artwork, but for something that 
> would represent Debian, it is way too personal (as in not neutral). Not 
> many people would find it acceptable for day to day use. Try that 
> wallpaper on a DE that has a couple (or better, a lot) of icons on the 
> desktop and you will see what I mean.
> 
> The theme itself is also not too bad, but maintaining similar theme for 
> different DEs might cause more problems that it would solve. Anyway, 
> plain unthemed KDE and plain unthemed GNOME look pretty much alike, so 
> that is no problem.

so where can i have a look at this? could it please be put up
somewhere on the web?


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

David Nusinow wrote:


What are you talking about Debian Style?


Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".


Check out the windowmaker package. It has (or had as of a few years ago) a
beautiful Debian theme complete with a very nice wallpaper. Creating
similar themes for other window managers and desktop environments would be
great.


I looked into it. Is indeed interesting artwork, but for something that 
would represent Debian, it is way too personal (as in not neutral). Not 
many people would find it acceptable for day to day use. Try that 
wallpaper on a DE that has a couple (or better, a lot) of icons on the 
desktop and you will see what I mean.


The theme itself is also not too bad, but maintaining similar theme for 
different DEs might cause more problems that it would solve. Anyway, 
plain unthemed KDE and plain unthemed GNOME look pretty much alike, so 
that is no problem.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Bill Allombert]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 07:02:03PM +0100, Thomas Viehmann wrote:
> Bill Allombert wrote:
> >> ... generic menu entries ... SuSE ...
> 
> > What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
> > the new layout and what will be the generic titles.
> 
> KDE seems to use the GenericName .desktop entry.
> Probably a good starting point would be to cannibalize these, maybe?
> Are there technical issues, too, or is it just the naming?

There are no technical issues:

1) Make a list of all valid genericname and add it to menu-section.pot
and translate it.

2) Change the menu entries to include a genericname field that is in
the list.

3) Change the menu-method to display the genericname. One global way 
to do this is to change the function title() in 
/etc/menu-methods/menu.h to 
ifelse($genericname,$genericname "(" $title ")", $title).
but this can be done in a per-menu-method basis or debconfiscated, etc.

4) Change menu-xdg menu-method to generate multilingual .desktop
files as we do already for the .directory files

You have made 0 code changes to menu but now you have a fully i18n
genericname support in all the window managers! 

Not that menu officially support longtitle but this is not an overly
popuar feature.

However I don't have time to do that myself, but certainly I have no
objection.

But there are another way: KDE and GNOME provide a non-Debian menu.
However there are no clear definition about what should go in this menu.
Maybe the policy could be to only put in this menu the applications
relevant to "Bob User" and keep the Debian menu to "Bob Hacker". This
might be a simpler way to get the same results.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here. 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Thomas Viehmann]

Bill Allombert wrote:
>> ... generic menu entries ... SuSE ...

> What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
> the new layout and what will be the generic titles.

KDE seems to use the GenericName .desktop entry.
Probably a good starting point would be to cannibalize these, maybe?
Are there technical issues, too, or is it just the naming?

I'm sorry, but my vage recollection is that someone somewhere wanted to
have menu transitioned to desktop, but I don't think that this has ever
been done...

Kind regards

T.
-- 
Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Isaac Clerencia]

On Monday, 12 December 2005 22:26, Frans Pop wrote:
> - a proper discussion on wether to keep things as they are now, default to
>   "the other" desktop (no, not that one ;-) or a solution where the user
>   is actually offered a choice during the installation (which has always
>   been my personal preference).
I also prefer asking the user, some people argue that the user doesn't know 
about the difference between KDE and Gnome, but I can't see how that is bad.

If a user has a desktop of choice, she will choose the preferred desktop, 
otherwise he will just select both or a random one, but at least will be 
aware of the existance of two different desktops.

Ubuntu does basically that (people has to choose between Ubuntu and KUbuntu), 
and people seem to like it.

Best regards
-- 
Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es
Work: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   | Debian: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


pgpRcFE2XbjJe.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 12 décembre 2005 à 20:25 +0100, Simon Richter a écrit :
> > -default sound setup
> 
> Sound is symptomatic of a much larger class of problems, namely that 
> there is no system service that forwards resources other than display 
> and keyboard to the user currently logged in. In Unix, the default is to 
> lock people out, so in the default setup there is no sound and USB stick 
> access (the Windows way of allowing anyone to access all devices opens 
> another can of worms). What would be required is some resource 
> forwarding framework in which a priviledged process will pass out 
> handles to sound/usb/floppy/... to anyone who asks via the proper 
> channels (X11 springs to mind, as only clients belonging to the user 
> logged in should have access to the display) or presenting the proper 
> credentials. This would not be a Debian specific solution.

Currently, there are two ways of handling this situation:
- The Debian way, where this is controlled by Unix groups, and where the
default user belongs to these groups. Your message seems to imply the
opposite, and I welcome you to install a sarge system and try plugging a
USB stick or playing sound.
- The Redhat way, using pam_console. The user logging in gains rights on
some devices. The problem is that when the user logs out, there's no way
to force her to release the rights acquired. This is a limitation of the
Linux kernel, which cannot revoke privileges. AFAIK, that's why it isn't
used by default in Debian.

If you want things to move, you should provide a framework for the
kernel to handle a new revocation system call - far from an easy task.

> > -default wireless setup
> 
> This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
> system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
> users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
> their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
> cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.

Some desktop tools doing that exist, but they seriously lack integration
in Debian.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 12 décembre 2005 à 18:34 +0100, Christian Perrier a écrit :
> Yes, but they don't use tasksel...which is the one installing a
> "desktop" task.

First of all, there should be separated "KDE desktop" and "GNOME
desktop" tasks. Most users don't want both of them installed.

> Here, let's face it: we have no team working on this in Debian. The
> result of a default desktop install for Debian is the result of what
> we get when installing X, then Gnome+KDE and some other stuff.

This shouldn't be a problem. KDE and GNOME teams are providing
metathemes that bring a desktop that should just work.

> -default sound setup

This should be autodetected. This is the purpose of linux-sound-base,
which should address that issue in etch.

> -default wireless setup

Maybe this could be integrated in d-i, along with an interface that
would allow to configure all network interfaces.

> -design of the default login screen

The GDM maintainer has been reluctant to provide a decent default theme
for years. He has just moved, but by making the theme random - which I
don't feel to be a solution. Everything is ready here, this is a social
issue, not a technical one.

> -probably tons of details which, alone, aren't a big deal...but will
>  make the difference at the end.

The real work would be to index all these issues and to find where to
fix them. Each problem isn't that hard to solve, once the necessary work
has been identified.

Regards,
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Martin Wuertele]

* Moritz Muehlenhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-12-13 10:52]:

> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.
 
So having a menu-simple that only displays the default foo-application 
as defined via the debian alternative system with the option to switch 
to the (current) menu system might be a way.

yours Martin
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Debian GNU/Linux - The Universal Operation System
 18:20:35 < youam> Alfie: ok, ich stell mich doof an heute. [..]
 * Alfie wollts nur nochmal hören ,)

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Andrew Vaughan]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:08, Bill Allombert wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> > This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> > menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> > don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> > through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> > "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> > helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> > the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> > turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.
>
> Hello Moritz,
>
> There are several people interested with this.  As far as the Debian menu
> system is concerned, I am no objection implementing this proposal.
>
> What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
> the new layout and what will be the generic titles.
>
> However that will not affect the KDE and GNOME main menu, only the
> Debian submenu.
>
On my sarge system KDE already does this.  (Installed from sarge Installer 
beta 1 IIRC).

Menu->Internet->Download Manager (KGet)
FTP Client (KBear)
etc

Not all programs are properly classified eg. Mozilla, Thunderbird, most of the 
Development tools sub-menu, the Debian sub-menu.

Andrew V.





-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Bill Allombert]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> Christian Perrier wrote:
> > And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
> > about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
> > our dear Bob User.
> 
> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
> menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
> don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
> through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
> "Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
> helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
> the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
> turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Hello Moritz,

There are several people interested with this.  As far as the Debian menu
system is concerned, I am no objection implementing this proposal.

What is needed at this point is a draft policy defining what will be
the new layout and what will be the generic titles.

However that will not affect the KDE and GNOME main menu, only the 
Debian submenu. 

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:28:28AM +0100, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> Christian Perrier wrote:

>> And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
>> about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
>> our dear Bob User.

> This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from
> generic menu entries. Most people don't care, which web browser they
> are using and if they're browsing through their application menu,
> they're confused by an entry called "Kopete", while an entry called
> "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more helpful. So maybe menu
> should be extended to keep both forms, so that the generic form can
> be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has turned into Bob
> Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Display both forms is even better. Because if you have three menu
entries called "email client" you really want to have a way to
distinguish them. And when Debian / Gnome / ... changes their opinion
on which program should be _the_ email client / web browser / instant
messaging program, the user can still find the one he is used to,
because the he has always seen the name.

-- 
Lionel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Christian Perrier wrote:
> And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
> about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
> our dear Bob User.

This is beyond tasksel, but Bob User would profit immensely from generic
menu entries. SuSE does this and I think it's very helpful. Most people
don't care, which web browser they are using and if they're browsing
through their application menu, they're confused by an entry called
"Kopete", while an entry called "Instant Messaging Program" is a lot more
helpful. So maybe menu should be extended to keep both forms, so that
the generic form can be chosen during installation. Once Bob User has
turned into Bob Hacker he can switch back to the detailed form.

Cheers,
Moritz


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 12:03:57AM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:

> * Joey Hess [Mon, Dec 12 2005, 03:53:02PM]:

>> This kind of disconnect between what an installed Debian system actually
>> does, what some developers think it does, and results like Debian
>> developers passing out Ubuntu CDs instead of contributing more fixes to
>> Debian is intensely frustrating to me.

> Welcome to reality. I remember people saying that boot-floppies had no
> i18n or USB support at all (etc.) even long time after Woody has been
> released. Looks like some kind of mental inertia.

That's because we handle upgrades through apt-get. Force the DDs to go
through debian-installer to upgrade their systems and then they'll
know what it does and not ;)

--
Lionel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Christian Perrier wrote:
> > (hey, this is why "desktop" installs the whole bloat of KDE *AND* Gnome ). 
> 
> It's possible that this statement is false, and that some change might
> have been made in this area under less than clear circumstances as a
> kind of experiment just to see how long it takes for someone to notice
> and what traspires if they do. Or not.


I currently don't see what's exactly meant in you above statement,
Joey. KDE and Gnome tasks have been created but they don't appear in
tasksel and are more (as far as I've understoof) intended for making
the life of derived distributions easier.

And, anyway, the KDE/Gnome thing is only one of the points I meant
about the "usability" of our default desktop system, when we target
our dear Bob User.

For sure, one of the problems we have is more or less mentioned
in my initial mail: we (d-i team) maintain what currently installs the
default Debian desktop...however we do not test it enough...because we
focus on the many other issues we're all working on.

And, indeed, when I say that "we" maintain tasksel, the reality is
that *you*, Joey, maintain tasksel...:). And, except your testing lab
and a few installation reports we get, we don't have that much
feedback and testing made on stuff installed by default on a Debian
desktop system.

We usually know that it either "works" or "is broken"but when it
works (it usually does), we don't really know whether the result is
something that can be used by Bob without reading the entire set of
books about Debian.

I hope that this discussion will trigger enough interest among fellow
developers and lead much more testing and activity around this.

(hoping it won't turn in a nice thread tree like the ones you
described once in a famous post in your blog)



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Joey Hess [Mon, Dec 12 2005, 03:53:02PM]:

> This kind of disconnect between what an installed Debian system actually
> does, what some developers think it does, and results like Debian
> developers passing out Ubuntu CDs instead of contributing more fixes to
> Debian is intensely frustrating to me.

Welcome to reality. I remember people saying that boot-floppies had no
i18n or USB support at all (etc.) even long time after Woody has been
released. Looks like some kind of mental inertia.

Eduard.
-- 
 und warum ist der nicht so schön bunt wie bei Suse?


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

David Nusinow wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 11:37:31PM +0200, Linas Zvirblis wrote:
> 
>>David Moreno Garza wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What are you talking about Debian Style?
>>
>>Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
>>All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".
> 
> 
> Check out the windowmaker package. It has (or had as of a few years ago) a
> beautiful Debian theme complete with a very nice wallpaper. Creating
> similar themes for other window managers and desktop environments would be
> great.
> 
>  - David Nusinow
> 
> 

Better yet, we should make WindowMaker the only window manager in
Debian.  Down with GNOME and KDE!

Does it show that I am a WindowMaker fan? :-)

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Seg, 2005-12-12 às 23:37 +0200, Linas Zvirblis escreveu:
> David Moreno Garza wrote:
> 
> > What are you talking about Debian Style?
> 
> Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
> All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".

The desktop-base package was supposed to address exactly that problem,
but there was not a lot of interest in the KDE and GNOME teams to
actually work on that.

I think we have managed to create some feeling on the GNOME front,
though, with a default desktop and customized splash screen. GDM lacks
integration, though.

> Every major distribution has that little something (be it only a default 
> wallpaper) that makes it what it is (navy blue Mandriva, brownish 
> Ubuntu), so if desktop is the goal for Debian, it should also have that.

That'd be something, but there's much more that we should think about.
This is just the top of the iceberg.

See ya,

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:    *  



signature.asc
Description: Esta é uma parte de mensagem	assinada digitalmente

Re: Debian and the desktop

[David Nusinow]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 11:37:31PM +0200, Linas Zvirblis wrote:
> David Moreno Garza wrote:
> 
> >What are you talking about Debian Style?
> 
> Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
> All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".

Check out the windowmaker package. It has (or had as of a few years ago) a
beautiful Debian theme complete with a very nice wallpaper. Creating
similar themes for other window managers and desktop environments would be
great.

 - David Nusinow


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

David Moreno Garza wrote:


What are you talking about Debian Style?


Color scheme, artwork (default wallpaper, login screen, even CD covers). 
All those little things that would make a user say "Yep, that's Debian".


A user should get the same visual feeling whether he chose GNOME or KDE 
for his desktop, whether he decided for KDM or GDM etc. This might sound 
silly for experienced users, but, take my word for it, this is something 
of a major importance to the newbies.


Every major distribution has that little something (be it only a default 
wallpaper) that makes it what it is (navy blue Mandriva, brownish 
Ubuntu), so if desktop is the goal for Debian, it should also have that.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 12 December 2005 21:25, Joey Hess wrote:
> It's possible that this statement is false, and that some change might
> have been made in this area under less than clear circumstances as a
> kind of experiment just to see how long it takes for someone to notice
> and what traspires if they do. Or not.

Hmm. I do know why the change was made and expect either
- a reversal to the Sarge situation when the reasons for the change have
  disappeared;
_or_
- a proper discussion on wether to keep things as they are now, default to
  "the other" desktop (no, not that one ;-) or a solution where the user
  is actually offered a choice during the installation (which has always
  been my personal preference).

Keeping the current situation just because nobody comments is not a really 
nice thing to do IMO. Please take this as me commenting.


pgp8gW67I2efb.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[David Moreno Garza]

On 20:25 Mon 12 Dec 2005, Simon Richter wrote:
> This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
> system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
> users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
> their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
> cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.

I think that when pointing at 'desktop' task is to make all of this
available. Selecting it will override the fact that the system you are
setting up is multi or uniuser. This shouldn't care to the desktop task.
The sound system should be set, as well as the wireless thing and other
stuff, in spite of the availability of these or how the system will be
used.

> The most pressing issues are those that lie in system design and are not 
> distribution specific. That Ubuntu doesn't have those issues to the 
> extent Debian has is related to the "single-user with sudo" approach 
> they have taken, but this is not a solution.

Why not? I think I couldn't understand correctly your point here.

-- 
David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   |  http://www.damog.net/
   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  |  GPG: C671257D
 "The number of RC bugs in Debian is..." -Steve Langasek.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[David Moreno Garza]

On 21:01 Mon 12 Dec 2005, Linas Zvirblis wrote:
> Replying to Christian Perrier.
> 
> I see what you mean. But who is going to create The Debian Style? Maybe 
> a contest is needed?

What are you talking about Debian Style?

-- 
David Moreno Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   |  http://www.damog.net/
   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  |  GPG: C671257D
 Save the planet, it is the only one with chocolate.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Joey Hess]

Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 08:25:49PM +0100, Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> was heard to say:
> > >-default sound setup
> > 
> > Sound is symptomatic of a much larger class of problems, namely that 
> > there is no system service that forwards resources other than display 
> > and keyboard to the user currently logged in... [snip]
> >  What would be required is some resource 
> > forwarding framework in which a priviledged process will pass out 
> > handles to sound/usb/floppy/... [snip]
> >
> > >-default wireless setup
> > 
> > This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
> > system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
> > users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
> > their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
> > cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.
> 
>   Essentially what you are saying is that since we can't provide a 100%
> generic solution that works perfectly in every concievable situation by
> default, we shouldn't bother making the default install work better in
> any situation (even, say, one that accounts for the overwhelming majority
> of current and potential users).  This is certainly in keeping with Debian
> tradition, and it's also the reason I now hand out Ubuntu CDs instead of
> Debian ones to new users.

Which is the kind of statement that truely puzzles me, since the
permissions issues Simon was talking about[1] are some of the things that
we went ahead and fixed in the obvious quick-and-dirty make-it-work way in
sarge.

This kind of disconnect between what an installed Debian system actually
does, what some developers think it does, and results like Debian
developers passing out Ubuntu CDs instead of contributing more fixes to
Debian is intensely frustrating to me.

-- 
see shy jo

[1] Which are AFAIK not the same ones that Christian was talking about,
since Christian happens to maintain the package that fixed them!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Daniel Burrows]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 08:25:49PM +0100, Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was 
heard to say:
> >-default sound setup
> 
> Sound is symptomatic of a much larger class of problems, namely that 
> there is no system service that forwards resources other than display 
> and keyboard to the user currently logged in... [snip]
>  What would be required is some resource 
> forwarding framework in which a priviledged process will pass out 
> handles to sound/usb/floppy/... [snip]
>
> >-default wireless setup
> 
> This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
> system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
> users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
> their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
> cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.

  Essentially what you are saying is that since we can't provide a 100%
generic solution that works perfectly in every concievable situation by
default, we shouldn't bother making the default install work better in
any situation (even, say, one that accounts for the overwhelming majority
of current and potential users).  This is certainly in keeping with Debian
tradition, and it's also the reason I now hand out Ubuntu CDs instead of
Debian ones to new users.

  Daniel


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Joey Hess]

Christian Perrier wrote:
> (hey, this is why "desktop" installs the whole bloat of KDE *AND* Gnome ). 

It's possible that this statement is false, and that some change might
have been made in this area under less than clear circumstances as a
kind of experiment just to see how long it takes for someone to notice
and what traspires if they do. Or not.

-- 
see shy jo


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

Christian Perrier wrote:


From the D-I team point of view: there are certainly tons of things to
improve in our default installs, especially when we exit the real
domain of D-I and enter the domain of general setup of a default
system.


The point is that this is not the a task for d-i. If an user wants to 
install the desktop task later on, there is no d-i in the background 
anymore, but the user experience should be about the same. So it's a 
packaging issue.



-default sound setup


Sound is symptomatic of a much larger class of problems, namely that 
there is no system service that forwards resources other than display 
and keyboard to the user currently logged in. In Unix, the default is to 
lock people out, so in the default setup there is no sound and USB stick 
access (the Windows way of allowing anyone to access all devices opens 
another can of worms). What would be required is some resource 
forwarding framework in which a priviledged process will pass out 
handles to sound/usb/floppy/... to anyone who asks via the proper 
channels (X11 springs to mind, as only clients belonging to the user 
logged in should have access to the display) or presenting the proper 
credentials. This would not be a Debian specific solution.



-default wireless setup


This is also related to the clash of the two approaches ("multiuser 
system with capable admin" versus "single-user personal system where all 
users need admin priviledge to associate to new APs as they roam with 
their laptop"). What we need is a solution that handles the in-between 
cases as well, and it's not Debian specific either.


The most pressing issues are those that lie in system design and are not 
distribution specific. That Ubuntu doesn't have those issues to the 
extent Debian has is related to the "single-user with sudo" approach 
they have taken, but this is not a solution.


   Simon


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

Replying to Christian Perrier.

I see what you mean. But who is going to create The Debian Style? Maybe 
a contest is needed?



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Linas Zvirblis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> >Yeah, and let's draw from the work by the Ubuntu guys, rather than
> >doing it a different way!
> 
> But doesn't Ubuntu use Debian installer?


Yes, but they don't use tasksel...which is the one installing a
"desktop" task.

>From the D-I team point of view: there are certainly tons of things to
improve in our default installs, especially when we exit the real
domain of D-I and enter the domain of general setup of a default
system.

Here, let's face it: we have no team working on this in Debian. The
result of a default desktop install for Debian is the result of what
we get when installing X, then Gnome+KDE and some other stuff.

This is something that comes outside the scope of the D-I team, at
least as we currently work.

We (D-I team) maintain tasksel, yes (mostly Joey) but we don't do that
much more. We don't really do choices because we aren't in a position
of doing choices (hey, this is why "desktop" installs the whole bloat
of KDE *AND* Gnome ). 

As a result, the default Debian desktop worksbut it lacks a few
polishing features which our custom^W users find in other distros

Examples?

-default sound setup
-default wireless setup
-design of the default login screen
-probably tons of details which, alone, aren't a big deal...but will
 make the difference at the end.

"Are we devoted to our users?", asked Marga at Debconfwe should
think about this sometimes...:)



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop

[Linas Zvirblis]

Yeah, and let's draw from the work by the Ubuntu guys, rather than
doing it a different way!


But doesn't Ubuntu use Debian installer?


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian and the desktop (was: Re: Complaint about #debian operator)

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.12.12.1405 +0100]:
> I don't understand why for Etch, if a user chooses "Desktop" during
> tasksel, they shouldn't get the just works[tm] experience.

Yeah, and let's draw from the work by the Ubuntu guys, rather than
doing it a different way!
 
> Ubuntu's excellence shouldn't be an excuse to sit back and not
> make our Desktop the best possible.

Very well put.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
Invalid/expired PGP (sub)keys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
 
it's as bad as you think, and they are out to get you.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)