Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Russ Allbery]

Vincent Bernat  writes:
> Russ Allbery  disait:

>> Well, I'm personally not directly involved with Python development, but
>> it seems like a lot of people are upset with the way that the python
>> package is being maintained.  We do have a procedure for this: it falls
>> under the jurisdiction of the Debian Technical Committee.  If there is
>> a group of people who believe they would be better able to maintain the
>> python package than the current maintainer and are willing to assemble
>> a team and propose themselves as the maintainers, that's certainly
>> something that can be appealed to the Debian Technical Committee for
>> discussion.

> Some respectable people keep telling us that the problem is handled and
> the solution will come soon. Going to the technical committee may be
> seen at confrontational against them, I think.

Eh, I'd hope not.  We're pretty good at not doing anything when that seems
to be the best choice of action, and we're identifiable people with
delegated project authority who can be contacted in private if for some
reason information absolutely must be shared in private.  Other than a
formal appeal being viewed as escalation, which is a risk, I'm not sure
that this would make the situation any worse.  I would hope that any
third-party mediators wouldn't take it as an affront.

One of the advantages of the TC process is that it inherently requires
that something constructive be proposed.  One can't simply present a
problem; one has to propose a solution at the same time so that the TC can
make a decision.  This can be marvelously clarifying.  Often as soon as
one starts thinking about a problem from that angle, a lot of the
uncertainy falls away and the choices reduce to a manageable set of
options with clearer tradeoffs.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 08:09, Vincent Bernat  wrote:
> Some respectable people keep telling  us that the problem is handled and
> the solution  will come  soon.

But OTOH very very few advances are made during these months, that
doesn't encourage to believe that "soon" is really soon now.

> Going to  the technical committee  may be
> seen at confrontational against them, I think.

I don't this so.

Regards,
-- 
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Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 09/03/10 at 08:05 +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 07:44, Lucas Nussbaum  wrote:
> > Last time I investigated the python problems, it was quite clear that
> > the situation wasn't as black and white as some people seem to think.
> 
> Mind to share the results of your investigations (even if probably a
> bit outdated)?

I'd prefer the TC to start from a blank sheet.
-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Vincent Bernat]

OoO  En cette  nuit nuageuse  du mardi  09 mars  2010, vers  01:14, Russ
Allbery  disait :

>>> Maybe the group of people doing that work should also be the people who
>>> decide when Python 2.6 will be uploaded, if the current maintainer
>>> isn't able or willing to coordinate the work for whatever reason?

>> Yes, that would be awesome in theory, still quite difficult (or seen as
>> rude) in reality.

> Well, I'm personally not directly involved with Python development, but it
> seems like a lot of people are upset with the way that the python package
> is being maintained.  We do have a procedure for this: it falls under the
> jurisdiction of the Debian Technical Committee.  If there is a group of
> people who believe they would be better able to maintain the python
> package than the current maintainer and are willing to assemble a team and
> propose themselves as the maintainers, that's certainly something that can
> be appealed to the Debian Technical Committee for discussion.

Some respectable people keep telling  us that the problem is handled and
the solution  will come  soon. Going to  the technical committee  may be
seen at confrontational against them, I think.
-- 
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 07:44, Lucas Nussbaum  wrote:
> Last time I investigated the python problems, it was quite clear that
> the situation wasn't as black and white as some people seem to think.

Mind to share the results of your investigations (even if probably a
bit outdated)?

Thanks,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 08/03/10 at 16:14 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Sandro Tosi  writes:
> > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 21:53, Russ Allbery  wrote:
> 
> >> Maybe the group of people doing that work should also be the people who
> >> decide when Python 2.6 will be uploaded, if the current maintainer
> >> isn't able or willing to coordinate the work for whatever reason?
> 
> > Yes, that would be awesome in theory, still quite difficult (or seen as
> > rude) in reality.
> 
> Well, I'm personally not directly involved with Python development, but it
> seems like a lot of people are upset with the way that the python package
> is being maintained.  We do have a procedure for this: it falls under the
> jurisdiction of the Debian Technical Committee.  If there is a group of
> people who believe they would be better able to maintain the python
> package than the current maintainer and are willing to assemble a team and
> propose themselves as the maintainers, that's certainly something that can
> be appealed to the Debian Technical Committee for discussion.
> 
> Obviously, that's a very confrontational approach, but it sounds like,
> just from the spillover that shows up in debian-devel from time to time,
> like less confrontational approaches aren't proving successful.  And
> sometimes raising the question formally is enough to resolve the situation
> without the Technical Committee having to do anything.

Actually, it seems to me that taking the issue to the Technical
Committee is actually less confrontational than the current ad hominem
attacks. However, I have the impression that some people are happy with
the current situation where they can threaten to hijack the python
package, and blame the current maintainer for all their problems. But it
is not clear to me that those people are really seriously ready to take
over the maintenance of the python interpreter.

Having the TC take a fresh look at the situation would be a good move.
Last time I investigated the python problems, it was quite clear that
the situation wasn't as black and white as some people seem to think.
-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Russ Allbery]

Sandro Tosi  writes:
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 21:53, Russ Allbery  wrote:

>> Maybe the group of people doing that work should also be the people who
>> decide when Python 2.6 will be uploaded, if the current maintainer
>> isn't able or willing to coordinate the work for whatever reason?

> Yes, that would be awesome in theory, still quite difficult (or seen as
> rude) in reality.

Well, I'm personally not directly involved with Python development, but it
seems like a lot of people are upset with the way that the python package
is being maintained.  We do have a procedure for this: it falls under the
jurisdiction of the Debian Technical Committee.  If there is a group of
people who believe they would be better able to maintain the python
package than the current maintainer and are willing to assemble a team and
propose themselves as the maintainers, that's certainly something that can
be appealed to the Debian Technical Committee for discussion.

Obviously, that's a very confrontational approach, but it sounds like,
just from the spillover that shows up in debian-devel from time to time,
like less confrontational approaches aren't proving successful.  And
sometimes raising the question formally is enough to resolve the situation
without the Technical Committee having to do anything.

-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 21:53, Russ Allbery  wrote:
> Sandro Tosi  writes:
>
>> So, three months are passed since the last email to the original thread
>> and 1 week from this last ping, and there are still no public
>> information about the "currently discussion ongoing about how to move
>> forward".
>
>> Nice, let's keep this hidden, so that only the secret cabal knows about
>> it, and the Debian community can be kept in the dark. Way to go.
>
> A bunch of work towards a Python 2.6 transition seems to be happening
> (says someone who doesn't use much Python but who fixed reported bugs with
> Python being built against 2.6 by default in a package upload a week ago).

yes, that's right: a huge amount of work was done by people from debian-python.

> Maybe the group of people doing that work should also be the people who
> decide when Python 2.6 will be uploaded, if the current maintainer isn't
> able or willing to coordinate the work for whatever reason?

Yes, that would be awesome in theory, still quite difficult (or seen
as rude) in reality.

Regards,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Russ Allbery]

Sandro Tosi  writes:

> So, three months are passed since the last email to the original thread
> and 1 week from this last ping, and there are still no public
> information about the "currently discussion ongoing about how to move
> forward".

> Nice, let's keep this hidden, so that only the secret cabal knows about
> it, and the Debian community can be kept in the dark. Way to go.

A bunch of work towards a Python 2.6 transition seems to be happening
(says someone who doesn't use much Python but who fixed reported bugs with
Python being built against 2.6 by default in a package upload a week ago).

Maybe the group of people doing that work should also be the people who
decide when Python 2.6 will be uploaded, if the current maintainer isn't
able or willing to coordinate the work for whatever reason?

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 01:59, Ben Finney  wrote:
> Luk Claes  writes:
>
>> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward,
>> though due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also
>> lots of FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.
>
> Nearly three months later, the issue remains: Python in Debian does not
> have a maintainer who communicates in a timely manner on the
> ‘debian-python’ forum. (This is evidenced by another ongoing discussion
> about problems with the python2.6 transition, with no input from the
> maintainer.)
>
> What is the specific plan to resolve that issue of maintainership, and
> what has the past three months of private action achieved for its
> resolution?

So, three months are passed since the last email to the original
thread and 1 week from this last ping, and there are still no public
information about the "currently discussion ongoing about how to move
forward".

Nice, let's keep this hidden, so that only the secret cabal knows
about it, and the Debian community can be kept in the dark. Way to go.

-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Ben Finney]

Luk Claes  writes:

> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward,
> though due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also
> lots of FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

Nearly three months later, the issue remains: Python in Debian does not
have a maintainer who communicates in a timely manner on the
‘debian-python’ forum. (This is evidenced by another ongoing discussion
about problems with the python2.6 transition, with no input from the
maintainer.)

What is the specific plan to resolve that issue of maintainership, and
what has the past three months of private action achieved for its
resolution?

-- 
 \   “Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to |
  `\   think.” —Niels Bohr |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le dimanche 06 décembre 2009 à 22:47 -0800, Steve Langasek a écrit : 
> Python in Debian is currently in bad shape; on this, there is no
> disagreement whatsoever.  But it's in bad shape by the measure that *it's
> not meeting the needs of our users*, not because of where it stands relative
> to Ubuntu.

Indeed, the problem is the Python maintainer, regardless of who he works
for. The fact that it is in a better shape in a distribution which is
close to Debian shows, however, that a better situation is possible. In
the current situation[1] it would only require an upload of python2.6
and one of python-defaults (provided that the last python-central NMU is
not, again, replaced by a broken MU).

But when the maintainer specifically happens to work for a company that
claims to contribute back to Debian, on the same things he works for in
Debian, you can’t blame people for pointing out these claims are
outright lies.

You want to use Debian’s code? Fine, it’s free software. You don’t want
your employees to contribute? Fine too, no one is forced to work on
Debian. But if you brag about your lies, prepare to get bitten.

[1] 
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?users=debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org;tag=python2.6

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'   “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 07 December 2009, Frans Pop wrote:
> But when you have a core package maintained by one and the same person,
> I do think that that person has a moral obligation to maintain his
> package as well and as timely for Debian as he does for Ubuntu.

And has an obligation to discuss major changes in the packaging within 
Debian before implementing them.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Frans Pop]

Steve Langasek wrote:
> No, because it's no longer an objective measure of whether the
> maintenance of the package is adequate.  Your definition of "adequate"
> maintenance is now based on how Debian is doing *compared to* Ubuntu,
> which is not a standard that would be used anywhere else!

You are skewing my arguments in a way that I find distasteful.

The basic point in my mails was that there is a maintainer who is 
responsible for Python in both Debian and Ubuntu, and while the Ubuntu 
packaging has made progress, the Debian packaging *over a substantial 
period of time* has not while that maintainer has also not participated on 
the debian-python mailing list.

The conclusion in the first mail was that that maintainer is apparently no 
longer sufficiently motivated to perform his responsibilities as the 
maintainer of a core package in Debian.

The reasons are secondary, but IMO there definitely is a pattern that when 
DDs get employed by Canonical they get so swamped with Ubuntu work that 
Debian gets pushed to the background.
I've also said that I have no problem with that - people do lose motivation 
or simply don't have the spare time anymore for any number of reasons.

But I do feel that someone in that specific position should do the right 
thing and step down as lead maintainer for the Debian package which would 
immediately free him to do whatever he wants for Ubuntu (although 
collaboration with the Debian Python maintainers would of course still be 
a very good thing). It would also break the current deadlock for Debian by 
enabling others within Debian to step in and push Python forward for 
Debian.

I have no problem with Ubuntu being ahead for shortish periods of time on 
anything. And when there are *different maintainers* of a package for the 
two distributions there is no hard obligation for Ubuntu to actively push 
back to Debian.
But when you have a core package maintained by one and the same person, I 
do think that that person has a moral obligation to maintain his package 
as well and as timely for Debian as he does for Ubuntu.

Given all the loud noise made by Canonical about collaboration and giving 
back, I also think that Canonical (more than any other random employer) 
has a responsibility to actively avoid leaving Debian in the kind of 
deadlock we currently have for Python.

> If you don't believe this is true, then why are we having this
> discussion about python, and not about:

Because those are utterly different cases.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:48:37PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:11:41PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> > The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
> > package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is
> > immaterial to an objective examination of this question.

> I think it *is* material in this instance:

No, because it's no longer an objective measure of whether the maintenance
of the package is adequate.  Your definition of "adequate" maintenance is
now based on how Debian is doing *compared to* Ubuntu, which is not a
standard that would be used anywhere else!

Python in Debian is currently in bad shape; on this, there is no
disagreement whatsoever.  But it's in bad shape by the measure that *it's
not meeting the needs of our users*, not because of where it stands relative
to Ubuntu.

If you don't believe this is true, then why are we having this discussion
about python, and not about:

 - the 6 patches to the pam package in Ubuntu that I haven't yet reviewed
   and pushed to Debian
 - each package ever uploaded to Ubuntu by a DD employed by Canonical that
   has not been ITPed for Debian
 - the fact that Debian is stuck with sysvinit as /sbin/init, whereas Ubuntu
   is running the event-based upstart which (modulo some growing pains) is
   simultaneously faster, more flexible, and more robust

?

The difference between these is simple:  one of these things - synchronizing
the Debian package with new upstream releases when deemed appropriate - is a
duty that one accepts responsibility for when agreeing to be maintainer of a
package in Debian; the others are not.  You may be *unhappy* about any or
all of these other things, but no one is calling for anyone to be forced out
as a maintainer as a result of them.  So Ubuntu is not the issue here.

And trying to make Ubuntu the issue is poisonous; it's shameful; and there's
no way that Debian comes out ahead.  When what should be a joyful experience
of Free Software collaboration becomes a zero-sum battle for "loyalties",
everyone loses.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 03 décembre 2009 à 19:28 +0100, Luk Claes a écrit : 
>> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward, though
>> due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also lots of
>> FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.
> 
> This is absolute bullshit. The situation is not complex.
> 
>> Before there is a real break through where everyone involved has got the
>> chance to react on proposals and hopefully agree on a way forward, there
>> won't be much disclosed.
> 
> Everyone already agreed on the way forward, including representatives of
> the release team. Everyone started to work on this months ago. Everyone,
> except the Python maintainer himself, of course.

Ack. He didn't even bother to write a single mail.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Peter Schultz]

The recent thread "RFC: organising focused BSPs" should have gotten
this much attention.

Debian is "behind" in many ways when it comes to the latest whatever,
but I guess people will complain.

I think Debian is amazing and will persevere.  Thank you to those
working so hard to make it so.

Pete


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Michael Banck wrote:

> When it came to evaluating the same for Debian, his technical opinion
> won (e.g. the problem with setup.py changes mentioned some time ago) for
> the time being, and now that python2.6 would be ready to upload,
> Matthias turned ill (or was distracted by other real life stuff for a
> while before).

he should either learn to work in teams or to communicate. Even better - learn
both. There is absolutely no excuse for the current situation.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 03 décembre 2009 à 22:46 +0100, Luk Claes a écrit : 
>>> Many still seem to think that Ubuntu is sufficiently close to Debian
>>> that work done in it should be easily transferrable. If this is not the
>>> case, maybe we need to start treating Ubuntu more like we do Fedora.
>> Because it is sufficiently close, mistakes learnt in one should probably
>> not be repeated in the other...
> 
> Yeah, sure. I guess this is why the dist-packages changes, which were so
> painful for Ubuntu, were applied to Debian as well without any kind of
> discussion.

Also the Python2.6 transition was an utter mess as it was started WAY too late.
We're going to face that mess in Debian again. Some people learn nothing by
their own mistakes just because they think they're better then all the others.


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rfkill (was: Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?)

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Henrique de Moraes Holschuh may or may not have written...

> On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
[snip]
>> My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
>> of /dev/rfkill.

> Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_ as
> a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type, and want
> to manipulate just one.

You appear to be confusing /dev/rfkill with its corresponding userspace
binary (which can enable or disable by type or index).

> Also, touching any rfkill line _can_ cause hotplug and hotunplug of
> devices.

True, as we EeePC owners know quite well :-)

-- 
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| using Debian GNU/Linux | or ds,demon,co,uk| Northumberland | Army
| + http://www.youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk/ & http://tlasd.wordpress.com/

Lettuce prey fur whirled peas.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bjørn Mork]

Luk Claes  writes:

> This discussion on -devel is quite useless and contra productive for
> everyone involved.
>
> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward, though
> due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also lots of
> FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

That discussion is quite useless and contra productive for everyone
involved.


Well, I don't know do I?  So I'm going to assume it is.  Thanks for
trying to make things even worse.  I realise that there has been too
much flaming in this thread.  But please try to grasp the real problem:

  NO COMMUNICATION

is the problem.

You just contributed to that.



Bjørn


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 03 décembre 2009 à 22:46 +0100, Luk Claes a écrit : 
> > Many still seem to think that Ubuntu is sufficiently close to Debian
> > that work done in it should be easily transferrable. If this is not the
> > case, maybe we need to start treating Ubuntu more like we do Fedora.
> 
> Because it is sufficiently close, mistakes learnt in one should probably
> not be repeated in the other...

Yeah, sure. I guess this is why the dist-packages changes, which were so
painful for Ubuntu, were applied to Debian as well without any kind of
discussion.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 03 décembre 2009 à 19:28 +0100, Luk Claes a écrit : 
> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward, though
> due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also lots of
> FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

This is absolute bullshit. The situation is not complex.

> Before there is a real break through where everyone involved has got the
> chance to react on proposals and hopefully agree on a way forward, there
> won't be much disclosed.

Everyone already agreed on the way forward, including representatives of
the release team. Everyone started to work on this months ago. Everyone,
except the Python maintainer himself, of course.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 01:14:36AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> 
> The right thing, I think, is to do it in the open.

IMHO the best thing to do would be to maintain the policy document in a
reasonable VCS and commit frequently.  People who are really interested
will drain the needed information from this place and will be able to
comment / enhance and by doing this they will separate from those who
only want to chat on mailing lists.

Isn't this the normal way to develop in the open?

Kind regards

 Andreas.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Julien Cristau]

On Fri, Dec  4, 2009 at 01:56:50 +0100, Michael Banck wrote:

> When it came to evaluating the same for Debian, his technical opinion
> won (e.g. the problem with setup.py changes mentioned some time ago) for
> the time being, and now that python2.6 would be ready to upload,
> Matthias turned ill (or was distracted by other real life stuff for a
> while before).
> 
And that kept him from keeping debian-python informed since February?  I
have some trouble believing that, somehow. :)

Cheers,
Julien


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, Dec 04 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> On 03/12/09 at 23:55 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 03 2009, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
>> 
>> > Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
>> > be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
>> > mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
>> > simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
>> > If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
>> > everything public?
>> 
>> Policy decisions, even drafting policy, does not have to be held
>>  in deep dark secret;  indeed, policy creation in Debian has usually
>>  been held right out in the open.  Going away and crafting what you
>>  think is going to be a finished policy and expecting wide adoption of
>>  the fait accompli is likely to have surprising outcomes for you.
>
> Were did Piotr say that he expected the updated policy to be
> immediately adopted without changes?

Did I say he said it?

> I don't have a problem with people drafting stuff privately if it is
> more efficient (and it's very probably more efficient there, with all
> the social issue involved). BUT people drafting stuff privately should
> not expect DDs to blindly and automatically accept their proposal,
> and be ready to rewrite it completely during the public discussion.

Past experience has shown me (and I do have a modicum of
 experience guiding technical policy development in Debian) that people
 drafting policy by themselves are much more likely to balk at having to
 rewrite the policy, and often are frustrated by having to repeat
 arguments expressed in private -- but hey, maybe this  time it will be
 all different from those previous times.

> What I have a problem with, is people _deciding_ stuff privately, and
> then announcing changes on d-d-a, expecting them to be accepted without
> discussion.

> I think that most of us are OK with the "private drafting / public
> discussion with lots of changes if necessary" process. But we so much
> fear that the "private decision taking / announce on d-d-a" process
> will be used again that people ask that all discussions are public.

> We really need to trust Piotr (and others) to do the right thing here.

The right thing, I think, is to do it in the open. It is not as
 if drafting technical policy in the open results in open flammage --
 technical issues are, as a rule, less cause for endless flammage than
 non technical subjective issues [like this one].

manoj
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Luk Claes]

Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 03/12/09 at 23:55 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 03 2009, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
>>
>>> Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
>>> be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
>>> mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
>>> simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
>>> If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
>>> everything public?
>> Policy decisions, even drafting policy, does not have to be held
>>  in deep dark secret;  indeed, policy creation in Debian has usually
>>  been held right out in the open.  Going away and crafting what you
>>  think is going to be a finished policy and expecting wide adoption of
>>  the fait accompli is likely to have surprising outcomes for you.
> 
> Were did Piotr say that he expected the updated policy to be immediately
> adopted without changes?
> 
> I don't have a problem with people drafting stuff privately if it is
> more efficient (and it's very probably more efficient there, with all
> the social issue involved). BUT people drafting stuff privately should
> not expect DDs to blindly and automatically accept their proposal,
> and be ready to rewrite it completely during the public discussion.
> 
> What I have a problem with, is people _deciding_ stuff privately, and
> then announcing changes on d-d-a, expecting them to be accepted without
> discussion.
> 
> I think that most of us are OK with the "private drafting / public
> discussion with lots of changes if necessary" process. But we so much
> fear that the "private decision taking / announce on d-d-a" process will
> be used again that people ask that all discussions are public.

Yes, the fear is so big that many seem to think so called decisions are
unquestionable except when overruling while most times the so called
decisions are only proposals.

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 03/12/09 at 23:55 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 03 2009, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> 
> > Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
> > be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
> > mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
> > simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
> > If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
> > everything public?
> 
> Policy decisions, even drafting policy, does not have to be held
>  in deep dark secret;  indeed, policy creation in Debian has usually
>  been held right out in the open.  Going away and crafting what you
>  think is going to be a finished policy and expecting wide adoption of
>  the fait accompli is likely to have surprising outcomes for you.

Were did Piotr say that he expected the updated policy to be immediately
adopted without changes?

I don't have a problem with people drafting stuff privately if it is
more efficient (and it's very probably more efficient there, with all
the social issue involved). BUT people drafting stuff privately should
not expect DDs to blindly and automatically accept their proposal,
and be ready to rewrite it completely during the public discussion.

What I have a problem with, is people _deciding_ stuff privately, and
then announcing changes on d-d-a, expecting them to be accepted without
discussion.

I think that most of us are OK with the "private drafting / public
discussion with lots of changes if necessary" process. But we so much
fear that the "private decision taking / announce on d-d-a" process will
be used again that people ask that all discussions are public.

We really need to trust Piotr (and others) to do the right thing here.
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, Dec 03 2009, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:

> Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
> be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
> mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
> simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
> If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
> everything public?

Policy decisions, even drafting policy, does not have to be held
 in deep dark secret;  indeed, policy creation in Debian has usually
 been held right out in the open.  Going away and crafting what you
 think is going to be a finished policy and expecting wide adoption of
 the fait accompli is likely to have surprising outcomes for you.

manoj

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Joe Smith]

"Piotr Ożarowski"  wrote in message 
news:20091203235820.gf6...@piotro.eu...

Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
everything public?



What we needed to know was that progress is being made, and the basic nature 
of the progress. Your message tells us that.


Progress is being made by way of preparing changes to the Python Policy.

It might be nice if the patches were hashed out in public, but it is not 
essential, and since that might just slow things down, which is exactly what 
we don't want, nobody should complain too much.





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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Michael Banck]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:48:37PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:11:41PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> > The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
> > package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is
> > immaterial to an objective examination of this question.
> 
> I think it *is* material in this instance:
> 
> Versions of python-defaults in Debian:
> unstable: 2.5.4-2
> experimental: 2.5.4-3
> 
> Version of package in Ubuntu:
> Version: 2.6.4-0ubuntu1 (karmic)
> Uploaded by: Matthias Klose
> On date: 2009-10-30 12:05:08 UTC
> 
> That is over *two months* ago.

I am not sure this is the case here, but it could be that some manager
at Canonical ordered Matthias to upload 2.6 to Ubuntu as a matter of
company policy (after all, python is one of their core areas of
interest) against his technical opinion.

When it came to evaluating the same for Debian, his technical opinion
won (e.g. the problem with setup.py changes mentioned some time ago) for
the time being, and now that python2.6 would be ready to upload,
Matthias turned ill (or was distracted by other real life stuff for a
while before).


Michael


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Piotr Ożarowski]

Right now we're working on updating the Debian Python Policy. Once we'll
be happy with the first set of patches, we'll send them to debian-python
mailing list. I don't see a reason to make it public right now as it's
simply not ready. Does it really matter that I'm not preparing it alone?
If I would work on it alone would I still be obligated to make
everything public?

/me wonders if other Debian cabals do not realize they're a cabal as
well ;-)
-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Ben Finney]

Luk Claes  writes:

> This discussion on -devel is quite useless and contra productive for
> everyone involved.

Yet it is the forum where everyone *is* involved. This is an open
project, I hope.

> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward,
> though due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also
> lots of FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

That means we who are not in that private forum have no information
about what's going on — or even whether *anything* is going on. If those
who are discussing it in private want discussions here in public to
remain current, please contribute.

Telling people not to discuss the issue publicly is counter-productive
to an open project.

> I would rather not have sent this mail as some seem to try to block
> any solution, though I'm sick of all the FUD and useless discussion
> and hope that this will put things in perspective.

I'm extremely glad you sent this message. If you don't want FUD, provide
facts (as you have done in this instance). Please, those involved in
such private discussions, do this early and often.

-- 
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_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Luk Claes]

Joey Hess wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
>> The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
>> package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is immaterial
>> to an objective examination of this question.
> 
> I think this argument only makes sense if the distribution they are
> working on for their employer is so unlike Debian that it is not
> possible to draw parallels from one to the other.
> 
> If someone's day job is to package python 3.0 for Fedora, and they
> managed to do it 2 years ago, and have not gotten it into Debian yet
> despite maintaining the package here too, I doubt anyone would think the
> less of them. Fedora is so unlike Debian that the work could easily be
> non-transferrable, and many things could block a change in one
> distribution that is simply accomplished in the other.
> 
> Many still seem to think that Ubuntu is sufficiently close to Debian
> that work done in it should be easily transferrable. If this is not the
> case, maybe we need to start treating Ubuntu more like we do Fedora.

Because it is sufficiently close, mistakes learnt in one should probably
not be repeated in the other...

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Joey Hess]

Steve Langasek wrote:
> The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
> package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is immaterial
> to an objective examination of this question.

I think this argument only makes sense if the distribution they are
working on for their employer is so unlike Debian that it is not
possible to draw parallels from one to the other.

If someone's day job is to package python 3.0 for Fedora, and they
managed to do it 2 years ago, and have not gotten it into Debian yet
despite maintaining the package here too, I doubt anyone would think the
less of them. Fedora is so unlike Debian that the work could easily be
non-transferrable, and many things could block a change in one
distribution that is simply accomplished in the other.

Many still seem to think that Ubuntu is sufficiently close to Debian
that work done in it should be easily transferrable. If this is not the
case, maybe we need to start treating Ubuntu more like we do Fedora.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:34:42PM -0500, James Vega wrote:
> >> Version: 2.6.2-0ubuntu1 (jaunty)
> >> Apparently uploaded *33 weeks* ago.
> >
> > Perhaps more germane to the head of this thread is that python3.0 is not
> > in Debian, but prereleases were added to Ubuntu apparently in 2007.
> 
> The python3.1 package has been in experimental since March of this year.
> I'm not positive, but I don't think python3.0 was ever uploaded to
> Debian.

This was indicated by the maintainer to the debian-python list:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/02/msg00431.html (last point
in the first section).

Kumar


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Michael Biebl]

Joey Hess wrote:
> Perhaps more germane to the head of this thread is that python3.0 is not
> in Debian, but prereleases were added to Ubuntu apparently in 2007.

There is a python3 and python3.1 package available in experimental.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[James Vega]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Joey Hess  wrote:
> Frans Pop wrote:
>> I think it *is* material in this instance:
>>
>> Versions of python-defaults in Debian:
>> unstable: 2.5.4-2
>> experimental: 2.5.4-3
>>
>> Version of package in Ubuntu:
>> Version: 2.6.4-0ubuntu1 (karmic)
>> Uploaded by: Matthias Klose
>> On date: 2009-10-30 12:05:08 UTC
>>
>> That is over *two months* ago.
>>
>> Version: 2.6.2-0ubuntu1 (jaunty)
>> Apparently uploaded *33 weeks* ago.
>
> Perhaps more germane to the head of this thread is that python3.0 is not
> in Debian, but prereleases were added to Ubuntu apparently in 2007.

The python3.1 package has been in experimental since March of this year.
I'm not positive, but I don't think python3.0 was ever uploaded to
Debian.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Joey Hess]

Frans Pop wrote:
> I think it *is* material in this instance:
> 
> Versions of python-defaults in Debian:
> unstable: 2.5.4-2
> experimental: 2.5.4-3
> 
> Version of package in Ubuntu:
> Version: 2.6.4-0ubuntu1 (karmic)
> Uploaded by: Matthias Klose
> On date: 2009-10-30 12:05:08 UTC
> 
> That is over *two months* ago.
> 
> Version: 2.6.2-0ubuntu1 (jaunty)
> Apparently uploaded *33 weeks* ago.

Perhaps more germane to the head of this thread is that python3.0 is not
in Debian, but prereleases were added to Ubuntu apparently in 2007.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Francesco P. Lovergine]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:58:58PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> I do not completely agree that this is Canonical's fault.  IMHO it is
> our fault as well if we do not step in by using the defined ways we have
> (Technical Committee) and sort out the situation for the profit of our
> users.  Allowing *any* maintainer (be it an Ubuntu employee or not) to
> block important packages should not happen and I do not think that we
> should mix up this situation with Ubuntu relations which might or might
> not here one specific reason for the maintainer.  But there could be
> other reasons as well and we should care for the fact in general instead
> of fighting a Debian - Ubuntu flamewar.
> 

Completely ack. It is not an ubuntu specific problem. It is a problem
due to misconception of personal ownership of packages. Core packages 
should not be in the hand of a single maintainer: this should be 
mandatory. Blocking maintainers should also be gently changed when
they are not able to step down themselves for what ever reason.

-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Joey Hess]

So, Debian is no longer an open project?

Luk Claes wrote:
> Frans Pop wrote:
> > Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> >> * Frans Pop  [2009-12-03 14:11]:
> >>> [1] IMO this question is fair since Matthias is listed as sole
> >>> maintainer for Python packages.
> >> I agree it's a fair question but you guys should really CC Matthias
> >> since -devel is not a required list.
> > 
> > It wasn't meant as a question to Matthias, but as a means to help ourselves 
> > to determine what to do next.
> > 
> > I think the best person to actually ask the question of Matthias is 
> > probably the DPL (who I expect does read the list), in the name of the 
> > project. Python is IMO an important enough part of Debian to warrant that 
> > level of attention.
> 
> This discussion on -devel is quite useless and contra productive for
> everyone involved.
> 
> There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward, though
> due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also lots of
> FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.
> 
> The DPL was already contacted and is informed about the progress of the
> private discussions.
> 
> Before there is a real break through where everyone involved has got the
> chance to react on proposals and hopefully agree on a way forward, there
> won't be much disclosed.
> 
> I would rather not have sent this mail as some seem to try to block any
> solution, though I'm sick of all the FUD and useless discussion and hope
> that this will put things in perspective.
> 
> Please reply in private.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Luk
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Luk Claes]

Frans Pop wrote:
> Martin Michlmayr wrote:
>> * Frans Pop  [2009-12-03 14:11]:
>>> [1] IMO this question is fair since Matthias is listed as sole
>>> maintainer for Python packages.
>> I agree it's a fair question but you guys should really CC Matthias
>> since -devel is not a required list.
> 
> It wasn't meant as a question to Matthias, but as a means to help ourselves 
> to determine what to do next.
> 
> I think the best person to actually ask the question of Matthias is 
> probably the DPL (who I expect does read the list), in the name of the 
> project. Python is IMO an important enough part of Debian to warrant that 
> level of attention.

This discussion on -devel is quite useless and contra productive for
everyone involved.

There is currently discussion ongoing about how to move forward, though
due to the complex nature of the current situation (where also lots of
FUD etc is on the lists), it is being dealt in private.

The DPL was already contacted and is informed about the progress of the
private discussions.

Before there is a real break through where everyone involved has got the
chance to react on proposals and hopefully agree on a way forward, there
won't be much disclosed.

I would rather not have sent this mail as some seem to try to block any
solution, though I'm sick of all the FUD and useless discussion and hope
that this will put things in perspective.

Please reply in private.

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 10:08:15AM -0600, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> True. IIUC, From a technical point of view, the Social Contract
> demands commitments from contributors with regard to their work for
> Debian; and nobody has committed to do X in Debian before they do it
> for someone else. So, I believe it'd be unwise to use one's
> affiliations outside of Debian as a means to justify one's complaint.

That should read: "unwise to use someone's affiliations outside of
Debian as a means to justify one's complaint."

Kumar


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:58:58PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:48:37PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> > So yes, I do have a problem with the way Canonical is taking developer 
> > commitment away from Debian, at least if and when maintainers no longer 
> > honor their Debian commitments *and* do not allow others to take over the 
> > work for Debian.
> 
> I do not completely agree that this is Canonical's fault.  IMHO it is
> our fault as well if we do not step in by using the defined ways we have
> (Technical Committee) and sort out the situation for the profit of our
> users.  Allowing *any* maintainer (be it an Ubuntu employee or not) to
> block important packages should not happen and I do not think that we
> should mix up this situation with Ubuntu relations which might or might
> not here one specific reason for the maintainer.  But there could be
> other reasons as well and we should care for the fact in general instead
> of fighting a Debian - Ubuntu flamewar.

(Please correct me where I am wrong)

True. IIUC, From a technical point of view, the Social Contract
demands commitments from contributors with regard to their work for
Debian; and nobody has committed to do X in Debian before they do it
for someone else. So, I believe it'd be unwise to use one's
affiliations outside of Debian as a means to justify one's complaint.

Thanks.

Kumar


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:48:37PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> So yes, I do have a problem with the way Canonical is taking developer 
> commitment away from Debian, at least if and when maintainers no longer 
> honor their Debian commitments *and* do not allow others to take over the 
> work for Debian.

I do not completely agree that this is Canonical's fault.  IMHO it is
our fault as well if we do not step in by using the defined ways we have
(Technical Committee) and sort out the situation for the profit of our
users.  Allowing *any* maintainer (be it an Ubuntu employee or not) to
block important packages should not happen and I do not think that we
should mix up this situation with Ubuntu relations which might or might
not here one specific reason for the maintainer.  But there could be
other reasons as well and we should care for the fact in general instead
of fighting a Debian - Ubuntu flamewar.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

-- 
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Frans Pop]

Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:11:41PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
> package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is
> immaterial to an objective examination of this question.

I think it *is* material in this instance:

Versions of python-defaults in Debian:
unstable: 2.5.4-2
experimental: 2.5.4-3

Version of package in Ubuntu:
Version: 2.6.4-0ubuntu1 (karmic)
Uploaded by: Matthias Klose
On date: 2009-10-30 12:05:08 UTC

That is over *two months* ago.

Version: 2.6.2-0ubuntu1 (jaunty)
Apparently uploaded *33 weeks* ago.

Debian is supposed to be upstream from Ubuntu, isn't it?
So when maintainers of common core packages upload new upstream versions 
first to Ubuntu instead of doing the work in Debian [0] and letting it 
flow naturally into Ubuntu [1], something is really very wrong. Especially 
if they apparently completely and utterly ignore their responsibility as 
Debian maintainers.

Ubuntu should *not* have a new upstream version for over 8 months while 
Debian has not when the same person is the maintainer of the package for 
both distros. I happen to feel that the above is a very obvious result of 
conflict of interest.

So yes, I do have a problem with the way Canonical is taking developer 
commitment away from Debian, at least if and when maintainers no longer 
honor their Debian commitments *and* do not allow others to take over the 
work for Debian.

[0] Which includes having packaging discussions and decisions on the 
*Debian* package mailing lists.
[1] Or at the very least also upload to Debian within at most a few weeks.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 10:17:26AM -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> P.S. It's been mentioned on IRC, but not in this thread, that Mathiaz is 
> currently ill, so I would suspect reading threads like this isn't currently 
> his highest priority.

I hope Mathias will get well soon.

The fact that people might become ill is an important reason to put high
priority packages under team maintenance and I hope this thread will end
up with this result very soon.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:46:48 +0100 Roland Mas  wrote:

>  The timing of #559206 is probably just an unfortunate coincidence, but
>I find it telling nevertheless.

If you look, you'll find the equivalent Ubuntu upload had the same bug, so 
I'm not clear what it's telling you?

Scott K

P.S. It's been mentioned on IRC, but not in this thread, that Mathiaz is 
currently ill, so I would suspect reading threads like this isn't currently 
his highest priority.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Roland Mas]

Steve Langasek, 2009-12-03 06:17:05 -0800 :

[...]

> Conflict of interest?  Oh, disregard the previous comments, then;
> apparently this /is/ just a thinly-veiled slander.

  Not necessarily.  I'm not sure about the state of law worldwide, but
French law has at least two criteria for slander (which we call
« diffamation » here): falsehood and malicious intent.  The reality of
the conflict of interest is the very point being scrutinised here, and I
think you'll agree there isn't a wide consensus on the lack of such a
conflict.  And since we are putting aside Ubuntu and mainly concerned
about Debian, I claim one can, in good faith, consider the facts as a
plausible indication of the existence of this conflict.  Call me a
slanderer if you like, but I'd rather you provided the salient facts
needed to dissipate the misunderstanding (or make the bad faith more
evident).

> The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of
> maintaining a package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their
> employer is immaterial to an objective examination of this question.

  Let me disagree on that.  It wouldn't mean much if the employer were
unrelated, but in this case the identity of said employer *has* some
bearing.  Because it tells us that: Matthias has the technical abilities
to do the job he's volunteered to do; he's presumably doing a good job
in Ubuntu, unless Canonical is very lenient with its employees; and his
employer has stated that Canonical employees are encouraged to do the
right thing in relation to Debian.  These points cannot be swept under
the carpet with handwaving or accusations of slander alone.

  The timing of #559206 is probably just an unfortunate coincidence, but
I find it telling nevertheless.

Roland.
-- 
Roland Mas

Time is a drug.  Too much of it kills you.
  -- in Small Gods (Terry Pratchett)


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Frans Pop]

Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Frans Pop  [2009-12-03 14:11]:
>> [1] IMO this question is fair since Matthias is listed as sole
>> maintainer for Python packages.
> 
> I agree it's a fair question but you guys should really CC Matthias
> since -devel is not a required list.

It wasn't meant as a question to Matthias, but as a means to help ourselves 
to determine what to do next.

I think the best person to actually ask the question of Matthias is 
probably the DPL (who I expect does read the list), in the name of the 
project. Python is IMO an important enough part of Debian to warrant that 
level of attention.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:11:41PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> IMO the solution is simple. *We* as the Debian project should make sure 
> that core packages of *our* distribution are maintained by people who's 
> first priority is Debian, and not another distribution.

Take care to make sure our core packages are also maintained by:

 - people whose first priority is Debian, not their family
 - people whose first priority is Debian, not their education
 - people whose first priority is Debian, not putting food on the table
 - people whose first priority is Debian, not their health
 - people whose first priority is Debian, not their ego

Since, if this isn't just a thinly-veiled slander against Canonical and its
employees, we'll want to make sure the maintainers of our core packages have
*all* their priorities right.

> Of course anybody can have real life (as in paid work) interfering with 
> volunteer work, but when the paid work is for another (competing) 
> distribution, the conflict of interest

Conflict of interest?  Oh, disregard the previous comments, then; apparently
this /is/ just a thinly-veiled slander.

The question of whether someone is doing an adequate job of maintaining a
package is a legitimate one.  The identity of their employer is immaterial
to an objective examination of this question.

> From what I've seen about Python maintenance in this and earlier threads it 
> seems clear that action is warranted. We have had similar situations in 
> the past that have taken *way* to long to resolve. Let's not delay any 
> longer this time.

> Let's simply give Matthias an ultimatum for presenting a plan for Python in 
> Debian and (both action and timeline). If he fails to provide that or if 
> the Debian project is not happy with the plan, others get to take over the 
> lead in maintaining it.

The governing body with the constitutional authority to resolve disputes
over package maintainership is the Technical Committee.  debian-devel is not
the contact address for the TC.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Frans Pop  [2009-12-03 14:11]:
> [1] IMO this question is fair since Matthias is listed as sole maintainer
> for Python packages.

I agree it's a fair question but you guys should really CC Matthias
since -devel is not a required list.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Frans Pop]

I think the proper subject for this mail would have been:
   Does the Python maintainer still have Debian as his priority? [1]

Shifting priority seems to be a fairly common pattern (to differing 
degrees) for DDs employed by Canonical.

Not at all surprising of course, and not even something to hold against 
them. When someone has an employer that sets very ambitious release 
targets and schedules, it will be very clear where his/her priorities are. 
Especially in the month or two months immediately leading up to an Ubuntu 
release.

Additional problem is that when you're employed to work on Ubuntu, any work 
on Debian is very, very similar to the paid work, which makes it harder to 
keep up the "volunteer" work.

IMO the solution is simple. *We* as the Debian project should make sure 
that core packages of *our* distribution are maintained by people who's 
first priority is Debian, and not another distribution.

Of course anybody can have real life (as in paid work) interfering with 
volunteer work, but when the paid work is for another (competing) 
distribution, the conflict of interest is much more obvious and harmful to 
Debian thatn it would be for other employment and thus we have be more 
vigilant and be more ready to ensure the continuity of the maintenance of 
our packages by actively transferring (lead) maintainership.

From what I've seen about Python maintenance in this and earlier threads it 
seems clear that action is warranted. We have had similar situations in 
the past that have taken *way* to long to resolve. Let's not delay any 
longer this time.

Let's simply give Matthias an ultimatum for presenting a plan for Python in 
Debian and (both action and timeline). If he fails to provide that or if 
the Debian project is not happy with the plan, others get to take over the 
lead in maintaining it.

There's nothing personal in that. The simple question is: do you still want 
to maintain Python *for Debian*, and are you willing to commit to the 
effort needed to do that properly. If not, thanks a lot for all your work 
in the past, but it's time to move on and hand over to others.

If different maintainers take over the lead, there is no reason why 
Matthias could not remain involved, but that would be something the new 
maintainers and he should work out.

Cheers,
FJP

[1] IMO this question is fair since Matthias is listed as sole maintainer 
for Python packages. 


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bjørn Mork]

Ana Guerrero  writes:

> If you really want to help, read the mail archive of the debian-python
> mailing list [1] (optionally hang out in the IRC channel), and get 
> an idea of what the problem is. 
> I also advise to take a look to the archive to people participating 
> in this thread who has not been following the list. If you are lazy, 
> just look for all the emails from Matthias in the python list.
>
> Ana
>
> [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/

This is good advice, so I went looking there to find out what it's all
about.  And you were definitely right: The mailing list archive fully
demostrates the complete lack of communication and cooperation from the
maintainer, which seems to be the main problem with python at the momemt

This is the only python3 relevant article I found from Matthias Klose:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/02/msg00431.html

So 16 Feb 2009 he wrote "I will start uploading python2.6 and related
packages, then proceed with python3.x in the next weeks."  Did I miss
any updates after this?  If so, do you have a direct thread link to that
discussion?


Bjørn


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Ana Guerrero]

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 05:06:40PM +0900, Angus wrote:
> Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
> 
> I appreciate all the hard work that needs to done to maintain
> packages, but if you're going to maintain packages as important as
> these, take some responsibility already and make the effort! Or
> otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).
> 
> Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.
> 
> [/rant]

If you really want to help, read the mail archive of the debian-python
mailing list [1] (optionally hang out in the IRC channel), and get 
an idea of what the problem is. 
I also advise to take a look to the archive to people participating 
in this thread who has not been following the list. If you are lazy, 
just look for all the emails from Matthias in the python list.

Ana

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/



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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
> > as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,
> 
> *Really*?? I was looking into the rfkill code since I reimplemented
> the protocol in my python applet and I don't see that. You can
> switch on/off one rfkill at a time, and that is NOT a group.

Depends on how you call it.  Evidently, you have read the documentation
and thus are doing it right.  I thank you for that :)

> > and want to manipulate just one.  Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
> > cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.
> 
> And? That is the right way, or?

There are two user cases: group and individual.  It is not a question of
right or wrong.  If your tool is for general use, you might want to add
group support if it fits the use cases your tool should address.

Group support is absolutely required only if you're also going to
process the various EV_SW and EV_KEY events related to rfkill.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Norbert Preining]

Hi Henrique,

not sure if it fits here, but still interesting.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> Ah, ok.   NetworkManager is supposed to be able to deal with rfkill, too

But probably only for WLAN, not WWAN. And then, I don't want install 
the whole bunch of horrible NM only to switch off my WWAN when I don't
need it and want to save energy.

> > This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
> > not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.
> 
> Heh, already got some side comments about gnome interfering with
> bluetooth rfkill from an user :-p

I cannot comment on that, since I am not using bt.

> > My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
> > of /dev/rfkill.
> 
> Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
> as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,

*Really*?? I was looking into the rfkill code since I reimplemented
the protocol in my python applet and I don't see that. You can
switch on/off one rfkill at a time, and that is NOT a group.

So I am not sure what you mean, maybe I misunderstood you.

> and want to manipulate just one.  Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
> cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.

And? That is the right way, or?

Best wishes

Norbert

---
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389
> 
> Nice try, but I was talking about a GNOME/systray applet I wrote 
> so that you can click-point turning on/off the various hardwares.

Ah, ok.   NetworkManager is supposed to be able to deal with rfkill, too
(might need bleeding edge for that).  I don't have a clue on how well it
does that, though.

> This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
> not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.

Heh, already got some side comments about gnome interfering with
bluetooth rfkill from an user :-p

> My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
> of /dev/rfkill.

Just keep in mind that /dev/rfkill manipulates radios of a given _type_
as a group, and that an user could have many radios of the same type,
and want to manipulate just one.  Also, touching any rfkill line _can_
cause hotplug and hotunplug of devices.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Norbert Preining]

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389

Nice try, but I was talking about a GNOME/systray applet I wrote 
so that you can click-point turning on/off the various hardwares.

This is currently only possible for the bluetooth in gnome, but
not for my laptop's builtin WWAN and WLAN.

My program allows exactely that, and uses either DBus/HAL interface
of /dev/rfkill.

Best wishes

Norbert

---
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JAIST Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology   prein...@jaist.ac.jp
Vienna University of Technology   prein...@logic.at
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Actually I don't care. I have used python only for a small applet
> that allows turning on/off rfkills (why is there nothing in the world
> by now, strange, maybe I should package it for debian, but I have

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=538389

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Norbert Preining]

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> Also, FWIW, I was told that Matthias is currently unable to read/answer
> email. So don't put too much hope in a statement from him in the next
> hours.

Actually I don't care. I have used python only for a small applet
that allows turning on/off rfkills (why is there nothing in the world
by now, strange, maybe I should package it for debian, but I have
no idea how to do that, as there is hardly any explanation ;-)
and I don't care for newer versions, I just saw that the tone was
going into the wrong direction.


Best wishes

Norbert

---
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JAIST Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology   prein...@jaist.ac.jp
Vienna University of Technology   prein...@logic.at
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 02/12/09 at 14:26 +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> HI all,
> 
> I have no personal opinion on python, but seeing that the maintainer
> has not stepped up and at elast *explained* what is going on and why
> we are lacking behind several releases is not a good sign.
> 
> On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> > complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.
> 
> You should behave, too, and not starting calling other "ass", that
> does not help anyone.
> 
> What is needed is a statement of the maintainer on what his plans are
> and why there are problems. If he does not come up witha decent
> argumentation that should simply be discussed in the technical committee
> and the package handed over.
> 
> Insulting as you (Lucas) did does not help, your insults were worse than
> what the OP wrote.

Note that the "you" is collective, i.e not just Sandro, but the various
people involved in Python in Debian that have been attacking Matthias
like that for months (if not years).

Also, FWIW, I was told that Matthias is currently unable to read/answer
email. So don't put too much hope in a statement from him in the next
hours.
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Angus]

> I agree that the current situation sucks. However, I've been involved in
> discussion with various developers on both sides (Debian and Ubuntu)
> that are interested in finding solutions. I'm still confident that we
> can reach a solution. But clearly, attacking each other like that is
> counter-productive.
>
> Please give us some time, and stop throwing fuel on the fire.

Specifically, what solutions to what problem(s)? "Please give us some
time" doesn't quite cut it when more than a year has already passed
without so much as a shred of information or a reply from the
maintainer to emails sent. When applying open source software why not
also apply open decision making?


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Piotr Ożarowski]

I agree that the current situation sucks. However, I've been involved in
discussion with various developers on both sides (Debian and Ubuntu)
that are interested in finding solutions. I'm still confident that we
can reach a solution. But clearly, attacking each other like that is
counter-productive.

Please give us some time, and stop throwing fuel on the fire.
-- 
Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer
www.ozarowski.pl  www.griffith.cc   www.debian.org
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Norbert Preining]

HI all,

I have no personal opinion on python, but seeing that the maintainer
has not stepped up and at elast *explained* what is going on and why
we are lacking behind several releases is not a good sign.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.

You should behave, too, and not starting calling other "ass", that
does not help anyone.

What is needed is a statement of the maintainer on what his plans are
and why there are problems. If he does not come up witha decent
argumentation that should simply be discussed in the technical committee
and the package handed over.

Insulting as you (Lucas) did does not help, your insults were worse than
what the OP wrote.

On Mi, 02 Dez 2009, Marc Haber wrote:
> We actually need people showing traces of social skills, which you
> don't.

On which fact do you pose this statement? I think the OP did clearly 
specify what are the problems in this area, and it seems that the
maintainer didn't respond by now.

So what is the problem with social skills, maybe you are the one lacking
them?

Best wishes

Norbert

---
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the afternoon he is due to start his vigil. As the knight arrives at
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as the knight and his charger step on to it.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009 à 12:07 +0100, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : 
> Seriously, Sandro. Do you really think that, in Matthias' position, you
> would agree to team-maintain Python with people that attack you so
> harshly on public mailing lists?

I certainly wouldn’t want to co-maintain anything with such a person, so
that’s actually a desirable side-effect.

-- 
 .''`.  Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'   “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in
  `- future understand things”  -- Jörg Schilling


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Jeremiah Foster]

On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:26, Sandro Tosi wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:17, Ben Finney  wrote:
>> Sandro Tosi  writes:
>> 
>>> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
>>> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>>> 
>>> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
>>> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?
>> 
>> You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;
> 
> to form a team to maintain python core packages (there is already a
> team on alioth, pkg-python, I think created for this purpose; it
> currently doesn't have any content in it)

The perl binary currently is team maintained inside debian. This is a separate 
team from the perl packages team which maintains perl modules in debian. 
Teamwork has allowed us to maintain a huge amount of high-quality debs, as well 
as enjoy each others company. :)

The perl binary team is relatively new, but it has some talented veterans who 
keep the perl binary up-to-date. 

I strongly recommend working with a team when contributing to debian, it is an 
effective way to maintain software.

Jeremiah

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Kartik Mistry]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Lucas Nussbaum  wrote:
> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.

Right. Let him talk about current status of Python in Debian.

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
> complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.


There were several nice and friendly attempts to get this problem fixed behind
the scenes - but Matthias didn't even bother to reply to a single mail. I'm done
with him and Python definitely needs a new maintainer team, without him.


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 02/12/09 at 09:27 +0100, Sandro Tosi wrote:
> Hello Angus,
> 
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 09:06, Angus  wrote:
> > Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> > hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> > Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
> >
> > I appreciate all the hard work that needs to done to maintain
> > packages, but if you're going to maintain packages as important as
> > these, take some responsibility already and make the effort! Or
> > otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).
> >
> > Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> > seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.
> 
> The problem with Python (interpreters packages) is the maintainer,
> that's force us in his one-man-show and, as you can see, it's failing
> loudly. Matthias is holding back the release and his not willing to
> communicate to the project (nor as a whole nor to the small group of
> people maintaining modules & apps, that keeps asking him about it) his
> plan or anything at all about these packages.
> 
> Buy hey, let's close our eyes and pretend he's doing a good job...
> 
> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
> 
> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?

Seriously, Sandro. Do you really think that, in Matthias' position, you
would agree to team-maintain Python with people that attack you so
harshly on public mailing lists?

If you really think that Matthias is not doing a proper job maintaining
Python, behave like in adult and use the correct Debian process: ask the
technical committee to hand over the Python packages to you (or a team).

Errors have probably been made on both sides in this story. But on
Matthias' side, I've never seen any aggressiveness towards you or
Josselin, or at least not at all comparable to the shit you give him.

It's a bit too easy to behave like an ass and insult him, and then
complain that he is not talking to you or willing to work with you.
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Marc Haber]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:06:40 +0900, Angus  wrote:
>Or
>otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).

We actually need people showing traces of social skills, which you
don't.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:17, Ben Finney  wrote:
> Sandro Tosi  writes:
>
>> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
>> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>>
>> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
>> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?
>
> You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;

to form a team to maintain python core packages (there is already a
team on alioth, pkg-python, I think created for this purpose; it
currently doesn't have any content in it)

> and what is it that has prevented it being done already?

That, without a formal ack from the maintainer, it would be an hijack;
and it's not we didn't ask for collaborative maintainership of python.
If instead the decision is made distribution-wide, it's a different
topic, and probably we can come out with something from this thread.

-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009 à 09:27 +0100, Sandro Tosi a écrit : 
> The problem with Python (interpreters packages) is the maintainer,
> that's force us in his one-man-show and, as you can see, it's failing
> loudly. Matthias is holding back the release and his not willing to
> communicate to the project (nor as a whole nor to the small group of
> people maintaining modules & apps, that keeps asking him about it) his
> plan or anything at all about these packages.

I’m interested to know what Matthias’ boss has to say about this.

Mark, you told me once that you wanted “the best for Debian”. Currently,
a Canonical employee is specifically holding back development of a whole
area of the distribution, and has repeatedly broken his packages without
concertation over the last years.

This doesn’t look like “the best for Debian” to me; it looks more like
maintaining an artificial state where Debian always lags behind Ubuntu -
and when it doesn’t, it is to follow Ubuntu changes without the
opportunity to question them or to implement them in a way that conforms
to our quality principles.

Maybe now is the time to do more than saying those words.

Cheers, 
-- 
 .''`.  Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'   “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in
  `- future understand things”  -- Jörg Schilling


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Ben Finney]

Sandro Tosi  writes:

> This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
> fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.
>
> Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
> deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?

You are not alone. What, specifically, are you proposing should be done;
and what is it that has prevented it being done already?

-- 
 \  “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does |
  `\   knowledge.” —Charles Darwin, _The Descent of Man_, 1871 |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Sandro Tosi]

Hello Angus,

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 09:06, Angus  wrote:
> Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
>
> I appreciate all the hard work that needs to done to maintain
> packages, but if you're going to maintain packages as important as
> these, take some responsibility already and make the effort! Or
> otherwise, let someone else do it (like me).
>
> Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.

The problem with Python (interpreters packages) is the maintainer,
that's force us in his one-man-show and, as you can see, it's failing
loudly. Matthias is holding back the release and his not willing to
communicate to the project (nor as a whole nor to the small group of
people maintaining modules & apps, that keeps asking him about it) his
plan or anything at all about these packages.

Buy hey, let's close our eyes and pretend he's doing a good job...

This (and other) rant are a signal we should create a TEAM around any
fundamental packages in Debian, and python MUST NOT be and exception.

Am I the only one (together with Angus, I'd say) believing python
deserves a better maintainership than the one it currently has?

-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: Has Debian abandoned Python?

[Lech Karol Pawłaszek]

Angus wrote:
> Python3 was released upstream exactly 1 year ago, but Python3.* still
> hasn't been released in Debian Unstable.
> Hell, even the even older Python2.6 is not there yet.
[...]
> Does Debian even have a roadmap for Python? If there is any, I'm not
> seeing it. At least be transparent about your tardiness.

IANDD nor I'm not involved with debian-python team, however I know one
little site, which might interest you:

http://wiki.debian.org/Python3

Hope it helps. Kind regards,

-- 
Lech Karol Pawłaszek 
"You will never see me fall from grace" [KoRn]


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