Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Kai Henningsen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Manoj Srivastava)  wrote on 03.05.98 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> >>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented
> >> MTA bar none!

Raul>> Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

>   In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
>  documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
>  then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992.

Rewrote a sendmail.cf from scratch (witout any help from m4) in the  
eighties. Still think it's the most confusing MTA config I've ever seen.

Smail was about what I wanted while battling sendmail. And Exim is Smail  
done right.

Raul>> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
Raul>> to make it easier to document.

>   Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
>  sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

Well, you _could_ argue that this is the Smail -> Exim step. But I don't  
really care.

Sure, Exim can do a lot, but most stuff is really easy to do.


MfG Kai


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:45:24PM +0400, Amos Shapira wrote:
> |Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
> |bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
> |close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
> |sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
> |and NO I don't know of any examples personally).
> 
> The only reason I still keep sendmail on my home machine is that I
> didn't get any answer about how to implement a "fallback MX" in Qmail.
> The point is a little mute now that I have an FR line at home but
> still maybe this is your example.

Didya ask the qmail list?


pgpzmsUPgduvL.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

I don't see why either but it sure has not been done.

[snip]
> I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to make configuration just
> as easy for a dial-up case. We need to figure out what the typical dial-up
> cases look like and integrate them into the configuration as well.
> 
[snip]
> >1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
> >(no matter what the user's local network name might be).
> >
> >2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
> >is in use.
> >
> >I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
> >logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the
> >'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
> >packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
> >shouldn't).
> >
> >#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
> >idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.
> 
> #1 is simple to do, though it probably needs a few variants, depeding on
> whether the machine serves an entire domain or just a sigle account/email
> address.
> 
> #2 Might be doable using sendmail's smarthost "MX" feature (setting
> the smarthost to a list of colon-separated hosts). With a bit of hacking
> it shouldn't be hard to have it read it from a file on each delivery
> attempt.
> 
> Regards,
> /Anders

#1 may be simple to do (and I know that I did do it once) but if you notice,
my from header is '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and that name and user are
unknown outside my own LAN.  Now I will admit to having been guilty of not
making notes about what I did when I managed to set that up properly before.
Best I can tell, the configuration that I presently have for exim should
'nuke' that header and replace it -- but it obviously does not.

AFAIK, #2 is NOT doable using any normal feature of sendmail, smail, or
exim.  These mailers are designed to be 'pretty damned smart' about
figuring out what mail server to send to based upon the specifics of the
particular message but have no concept of possibly different internet
connections.



> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
>  documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
>  then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992. 

Depends what you're trying to do, I suppose.

When I want tto rewrite mail, I find perl more convenient.  I don't
like how sendmail mixes mail rewriting with mail routing.

> Raul> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
> Raul> to make it easier to document.
> 
>   Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
>  sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

General statement.

-- 
Raul


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented
>> MTA bar none!

Raul> Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
 documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
 then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992. 

Raul> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
Raul> to make it easier to document.

Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
 sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

manoj
-- 
 I like work; it fascinates me; I can sit and look at it for hours.
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Amos Shapira]

On Sun, May 3 1998, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
|
|Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
|bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
|close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
|sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
|and NO I don't know of any examples personally).

The only reason I still keep sendmail on my home machine is that I
didn't get any answer about how to implement a "fallback MX" in Qmail.
The point is a little mute now that I have an FR line at home but
still maybe this is your example.

Cheers,

--Amos

--Amos Shapira| "Of course Australia was marked for
133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st.  |  glory, for its people had been chosen
Jerusalem 93 805  |  by the finest judges in England."
ISRAEL[EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Anonymous


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Anders Hammarquist]

>'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
>
>I will take a look at sendmail because of Manoj's remarks since the only
>significant disadvantage to sendmail that I could see is that it can be a
>real tough one to set up properly (if you are a continuously connected
>mail server then it is almost a 'snap' to set up using the conventional
>sendmail configuration).

I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to make configuration just
as easy for a dial-up case. We need to figure out what the typical dial-up
cases look like and integrate them into the configuration as well.

>I don't consider myself to be stupid but the e-mail issue is really
>raising doubts...
>
>It should not require days of study of various documents, man pages,
>HOWTOs, example configuration files, etc. just to get an email system
>that:
>
>1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
>(no matter what the user's local network name might be).
>
>2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
>is in use.
>
>I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
>logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the
>'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
>packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
>shouldn't).
>
>#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
>idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.

#1 is simple to do, though it probably needs a few variants, depeding on
whether the machine serves an entire domain or just a sigle account/email
address.

#2 Might be doable using sendmail's smarthost "MX" feature (setting
the smarthost to a list of colon-separated hosts). With a bit of hacking
it shouldn't be hard to have it read it from a file on each delivery
attempt.

Regards,
/Anders

-- 
 -- Of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Anders Hammarquist   |   Mud at Kingdoms| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
NetGuide Scandinavia |   telnet kingdoms.se 1812| Fax: +46 31 50 79 39
http://www.netg.se   |  | Tel: +46 31 50 79 40


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
> bar none!

Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program to
make it easier to document.

-- 
Raul


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
and NO I don't know of any examples personally).

Exim is also a good MTA.  It is easier to configure than sendmail, supposedly
faster (though I don't consider that a concern for dailup use - the line 
itself is far too limiting for that to matter).  Like the 'conventional'
sendmail distribution though, the exim.deb appears to me to be almost 
hopelessly confusing and inadequate as far as the dailup user is concerned.
And by 'dailup user' I mean a user that uses a typical personal account with
an ISP and may or may not have a local area network.

I will take a look at sendmail because of Manoj's remarks since the only
significant disadvantage to sendmail that I could see is that it can be a
real tough one to set up properly (if you are a continuously connected
mail server then it is almost a 'snap' to set up using the conventional
sendmail configuration).

I don't consider myself to be stupid but the e-mail issue is really
raising doubts...

It should not require days of study of various documents, man pages,
HOWTOs, example configuration files, etc. just to get an email system
that:

1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
(no matter what the user's local network name might be).

2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
is in use.

I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the 
'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
shouldn't).

#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.


-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]