Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Martin Schulze]

Stephen Birch wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 05:02 -0500, Christian Perrier wrote:
> > Quoting David Weinehall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> > 
> > > Indeed.  The Nokia OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) that work on
> > > this product consists of several DD's (myself being one), plus at least
> > > one person in the NM-queue.  Some of our subcontractors are also DD's.
> 
> Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.

http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/2005-05.html#20050526b

Regards,

Joey

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 11:47:50AM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:21:46AM -0700, Stephen Birch wrote:
> > Florian Weimer([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 09:32:
> > > * Stephen Birch:
> > > 
> > > > Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.
> > > 
> > > To put things into perspective, Nokia is one of the companies lobbying
> > > for unlimited software patents in Europe.
> > 
> > Oops.  I don't like to appear fickle but I guess they just went from
> > top company to bottom in my mind.  Sigh ... I would have liked one of
> > those tablet computer.
> 
> So, I take it you don't buy any products from Apple, IBM, Sony,
> etc either?
> 
> There's a distinct difference between corporate policy and the project
> internal policy of the Nokia/OSSO team who have developed the N770.
> 
> > Software patents are an absolute menace in the USA it would be crazy
> > for Europe to also start issuing them.
> 
> Well, the European Parliament is (or has at least been) strongly opposed
> to software patents, so it's unlikely that they will pass without some
> serious trickery.

FFmpeg threatened by software patents: http://ffmpeg.org/

specifically:

The European commission has just passed its directive on
software patents, violating democratic rules and procedures to
the sole benefit of big non-European corporation and Ireland and
to the detriment of small and medium sized businesses (which
comprise 99% of the European software industry) and free
software.

The European parliament will now be taking the last stand
against software patents in a voting for which an absolute
majority is needed. Such a majority is hard to come by in a
parliament with a low attendance level.

Doesn't look good :-(

-- 
Chris.
==


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> You don't need any money and you don't need to sue Microsoft.  If you have
> proof of prior art for a software patent please contact one of the many
> organizations fighting such patents, such as the Free Software Foundation
> .

Michelle Konzack writes:
> Hmmm, should I conntact them to make troble with M$ and friends ?

Please do.

I wrote:
> BTW I assume that by "under a PD" you mean released into the public domain?
> It is not possible for a work to be both "public domain" and "educational
> use only".

Michelle Konzack writes:
> In the USA but in Germany...

I doubt that the definition of public domain is significantly different in
Germany.

> I have found source code of SCO in Linux and Linux code in SCO, BUT it is
> OpenSCO and this part was GPLed. I have the OpenSCO CD's at home, and I
> know what I am talking about.

It is quite legal for SCO to distribute GPL software as long as they comply
with the license.

> But SCO tell us, there is stolen Source-Code!

When the court ordered SCO to produce that code they admitted there was
none.

> The Judges in the USA have never seen the SCO-Source in original and now?

The judges have access to everything.


BTW the company that now calls itself SCO is not the original SCO.  It used
to be called Caldera and was a Linux company.  It bought SCO's Unix
business (and the name SCO) from SCO.  At about the time that it sued IBM
it changed its name to "The SCO Group" and now calls itself SCO.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-06-06 10:11:22, schrieb John Hasler:

> You don't need any money and you don't need to sue Microsoft.  If you have
> proof of prior art for a software patent please contact one of the many
> organizations fighting such patents, such as the Free Software Foundation
> .  Several US software patents have been overturned
> recently when prior art was discovered by software patent opponents.

Hmmm, should I conntact them to make troble with M$ and friends ?

> BTW I assume that by "under a PD" you mean released into the public domain?
> It is not possible for a work to be both "public domain" and "educational
> use only".

In the USA but in Germany...

> Do you mean that Microsoft has patented an invention that was published in
> the referenced work, or that they are infringing the copyright?

The copyright, because for commercial use, interested
people/enterrises had should contact me for a licence.

And I think, M$ and Friends have stolen much more sources as
publicated and nobody can enforce her/his right, because it
is Closed Source Software where you do not know anything about
it.  :-(

See SCO!

I have found source code of SCO in Linux and Linux code in
SCO, BUT it is OpenSCO and this part was GPLed. I have the
OpenSCO CD's at home, and I know what I am talking about.

But SCO tell us, there is stolen Source-Code!  The Judges in
the USA have never seen the SCO-Source in original and now ?

I am using ONLY "main" from Debian and all new software of
me is GPL.  Never I will go back to prprietary software.

I am using Debian GNU/Linux sind 03/1999 and I will use it
for the rest of my life.

Thanks to all Developpers and Contributors (I am helping
discretly some Upstreams, DD and DM and I will continue)
for developing this GREAT and FREE Operating System.

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[John Hasler]

Michelle Konzack writes:
> I know, and I have no money to sue Microsoft which has stolen a Software
> which was 1986 under PD for educational use only...

You don't need any money and you don't need to sue Microsoft.  If you have
proof of prior art for a software patent please contact one of the many
organizations fighting such patents, such as the Free Software Foundation
.  Several US software patents have been overturned
recently when prior art was discovered by software patent opponents.

BTW I assume that by "under a PD" you mean released into the public domain?
It is not possible for a work to be both "public domain" and "educational
use only".

Do you mean that Microsoft has patented an invention that was published in
the referenced work, or that they are infringing the copyright?
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Jesus Climent]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:01:37PM +0200, Xavier Roche wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 01:33:00PM +0200, Jesus Climent wrote:
> > That is the key: OSS cannot be killed, not while EU and USA's governments,
> > local and nationwide, are promoting, using and even developing OSS 
> > themselves.
> 
> I can't be killed, but it can be expensive. What will do governments, local
> and nationwide, do when some company will ask them to pay for "patent
> infringement" ? They will pay.

Or not. Read below.

> Governments can afford to pay to use OSS (hey, this is a legal way to give
> money to private companies, by the way).
> 
> This is also a good point for big patent holders: "you can use OSS, but if
> you don't choose our consulting $ervice$, we sue you"

There might be the time when a government will be sued (along with the company
that produced the software they are using) for patent infrigement, and a push
to invalidate those patents will come. The same thing is happening with some
pharmacy issues, related to AIDS and malaria.

Time will tell.

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 08:17:21AM -0700, Stephen Birch wrote:
> Michelle Konzack([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 15:52:
> > I know, and I have no money to sue Microsoft which has stolen
> > a Software which was 1986 under PD for educational use only...
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what was that?
> 

Out of even greater curiousity, how was something in the public domain
"stolen"?  That seems contradictory.

-Roberto

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http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-06-06 08:17:21, schrieb Stephen Birch:
> Michelle Konzack([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 15:52:
> > I know, and I have no money to sue Microsoft which has stolen
> > a Software which was 1986 under PD for educational use only...
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what was that?

1)  A Scandisk routine for FAT which was later used in Win95 and 
Win2000 and originaly written in 8 Bit on a Schneider Amstrad
PC1512  -  time flys!

2)  More secure writing of Data to FAT16 (1989)

I am using the Internet sinde 12/1995 and found my Source codes in
summer 1996 on .  I do not know, who has
uploaded it, but my self only on a 1200 Baud BBS in Munic/Germany.
The files are partialy in the the /msdos Directory dated on 1984 to
1990.

> Steve

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[John Hasler]

Jesus Climent writes:
> That is the key: OSS cannot be killed, not while EU and USA's governments,
> local and nationwide, are promoting, using and even developing OSS themselves.

> Would you shoot on your feet?

The politicians really don't comprehend the problem (and neither do most of
the CEOs of the pro-patent companies).  They believe that the OSS companies
can just pay the royalties and all will be fine.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Stephen Birch]

Michelle Konzack([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 15:52:
> I know, and I have no money to sue Microsoft which has stolen
> a Software which was 1986 under PD for educational use only...

Just out of curiosity, what was that?

Steve


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Stephen Birch]

David Weinehall([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 11:47:

> > 

> > top company to bottom in my mind.  Sigh ... I would have liked one of
> > those tablet computer.
> 
> So, I take it you don't buy any products from Apple, IBM, Sony,
> etc either?

Apple ... nope
IBM ... nope
Sony ... okay, so you got me!

> There's a distinct difference between corporate policy and the project
> internal policy of the Nokia/OSSO team who have developed the N770.
> 
> > Software patents are an absolute menace in the USA it would be crazy
> > for Europe to also start issuing them.
> 
> Well, the European Parliament is (or has at least been) strongly opposed
> to software patents, so it's unlikely that they will pass without some
> serious trickery.

I certainly hope so.  The USA situation is completely insane IMHO.

> NOTE: I'm a Nokia employee and work on the N770 team, but this is by
> no means an official statement...
> 
> Regards: David Weinehall

Be careful what you post though!  Nokia may be different but the "do
no evil" company google fired a guy for sharing his views :-)

Steve


PS Okay .. Id still like one of those tablets but the software patent
thing is pretty upsetting and I am quite suprised Nokia is on the
wrong side.


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-06-06 15:02:31, schrieb Xavier Roche:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:19:20PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Many of those Patents a not related to OSS.
> 
> Yes, true. But many other "non software" patents are actually
> disguised software patents (such as implementing a trivial algorithm
> on a chip - hey, these ARE software patents)

I know, but...

> > And some others can not enforced.
> 
> Huh ? Remember the one-click patent, the plugin (Eolas) patent ? If
> you aren't backed up by expensive erperts, you're dead. IT is
> complicated. Software is damn complicated.

I know, and I have no money to sue Microsoft which has stolen
a Software which was 1986 under PD for educational use only...

> No, no. I'm just realistic. If a company has the opportunity to kill
> competitors, using legal ways, there are no reasons not to use them.
> What is illogical is to create new ways of killing competition,
> through software patents.

:-/

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Xavier Roche]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:19:20PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Many of those Patents a not related to OSS.

Yes, true. But many other "non software" patents are actually disguised 
software patents (such as implementing a trivial algorithm on a chip - hey, 
these ARE software patents)

> And some others can not enforced.

Huh ? Remember the one-click patent, the plugin (Eolas) patent ? If you aren't 
backed up by expensive erperts, you're dead. IT is complicated. Software is 
damn complicated.

> You see realy black ?

No, no. I'm just realistic. If a company has the opportunity to kill 
competitors, using legal ways, there are no reasons not to use them.
What is illogical is to create new ways of killing competition, through 
software patents.


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2005-06-06 12:10:02, schrieb Xavier Roche:

> 922 patents (including software patents, still 'illegal' in Europe)
> were issued by Nokia, by the way:
> 
> But IBM issued much more (at least 2620, according to ffii) software
> patents.

For some month I have checked the list of patents
and DON NOT BELIVE ALL what the ffii tells you !!!

Many of those Patents a not related to OSS.

And some others can not enforced.

> Both IBM and Nokia said they won't sue open source developpers. For
> the moment, at least. This is the real threat, IMHO: big companies
> using open source for a while, and then.. killing it when they don't
> need it anymore.

You see realy black ?

> I'm really pessimistic. Both council and commission are pro-swpat,
> and are actively lobbying to pass the directive. The parliament will
> have to find a global majority, or the directive will be approved.
> A global majority, just before summer vacation. Good luck ..

:-)

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Xavier Roche]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 01:33:00PM +0200, Jesus Climent wrote:
> That is the key: OSS cannot be killed, not while EU and USA's governments,
> local and nationwide, are promoting, using and even developing OSS themselves.

I can't be killed, but it can be expensive. What will do governments, local and 
nationwide, do when some company will ask them to pay for "patent infringement" 
? They will pay.
Governments can afford to pay to use OSS (hey, this is a legal way to give 
money to private companies, by the way).

This is also a good point for big patent holders: "you can use OSS, but if you 
don't choose our consulting $ervice$, we sue you"

> Would you shoot on your feet?

Aren't european governments already trying to shoot themselves in their feet by 
endangering the IT industry with swpat ? 

The council/commission position is clear: if shooting on "our" (=IT industry's) 
feet means big money for us (=our friends ar the EPO), why bother ?


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Florian Weimer]

* Jesus Climent:

> That is the key: OSS cannot be killed, not while EU and USA's
> governments, local and nationwide, are promoting, using and even
> developing OSS themselves.

Most countries use OSS only when it's supported by large companies
that can be sued for billions.  Smaller companies usually don't have
the knowledge or resources to get involved even at the bidding stage
(and the whole bidding process is secret, so that you can't learn from
successful bids).

In the U.S., there once was a Small Business Initiative, which awarded
contracts explicitly to small contractors where possible.  This is a
reasonable thing to do, but this practice is probably illegal in the
EU.


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Jesus Climent]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 12:10:02PM +0200, Xavier Roche wrote:
> 
> Both IBM and Nokia said they won't sue open source developpers. For the
> moment, at least. This is the real threat, IMHO: big companies using open
> source for a while, and then.. killing it when they don't need it anymore.

That is the key: OSS cannot be killed, not while EU and USA's governments,
local and nationwide, are promoting, using and even developing OSS themselves.

Would you shoot on your feet?

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You know what the real tragedy of this day is? I'm not even supposed to 
be here today!
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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Xavier Roche]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 11:47:50AM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> So, I take it you don't buy any products from Apple, IBM, Sony,
> etc either?

Same for Alcatel, Ericsson and Siemens, who actively support software patents 
in Europe :(
They all sent threat/blackmail letters to European government officials to 
block parliament's amendments.

Some interesting details here:

(and also )

922 patents (including software patents, still 'illegal' in Europe) were issued 
by Nokia, by the way:

But IBM issued much more (at least 2620, according to ffii) software patents.

Both IBM and Nokia said they won't sue open source developpers. For the moment, 
at least. This is the real threat, IMHO: big companies using open source for a 
while, and then.. killing it when they don't need it anymore.

> Well, the European Parliament is (or has at least been) strongly opposed
> to software patents, so it's unlikely that they will pass without some
> serious trickery.

I'm really pessimistic. Both council and commission are pro-swpat, and are 
actively lobbying to pass the directive. The parliament will have to find a 
global majority, or the directive will be approved. A global majority, just 
before summer vacation. Good luck ..


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[David Weinehall]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 02:21:46AM -0700, Stephen Birch wrote:
> Florian Weimer([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 09:32:
> > * Stephen Birch:
> > 
> > > Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.
> > 
> > To put things into perspective, Nokia is one of the companies lobbying
> > for unlimited software patents in Europe.
> 
> Oops.  I don't like to appear fickle but I guess they just went from
> top company to bottom in my mind.  Sigh ... I would have liked one of
> those tablet computer.

So, I take it you don't buy any products from Apple, IBM, Sony,
etc either?

There's a distinct difference between corporate policy and the project
internal policy of the Nokia/OSSO team who have developed the N770.

> Software patents are an absolute menace in the USA it would be crazy
> for Europe to also start issuing them.

Well, the European Parliament is (or has at least been) strongly opposed
to software patents, so it's unlikely that they will pass without some
serious trickery.


NOTE: I'm a Nokia employee and work on the N770 team, but this is by
no means an official statement...


Regards: David Weinehall
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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Stephen Birch]

Florian Weimer([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-06 09:32:
> * Stephen Birch:
> 
> > Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.
> 
> To put things into perspective, Nokia is one of the companies lobbying
> for unlimited software patents in Europe.

Oops.  I don't like to appear fickle but I guess they just went from
top company to bottom in my mind.  Sigh ... I would have liked one of
those tablet computer.

Software patents are an absolute menace in the USA it would be crazy
for Europe to also start issuing them.

Steve


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Florian Weimer]

* Stephen Birch:

> Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.

To put things into perspective, Nokia is one of the companies lobbying
for unlimited software patents in Europe.


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Stephen Birch]

On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 05:02 -0500, Christian Perrier wrote:
> Quoting David Weinehall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> > Indeed.  The Nokia OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) that work on
> > this product consists of several DD's (myself being one), plus at least
> > one person in the NM-queue.  Some of our subcontractors are also DD's.

Wow Nokia just became my new favourite company.

This is *very* exciting news.  Once again Nokia does the right thing at
the right time, it is no suprise that the company is such a success.

> 
> This should be IMHO publicized more widely, for the benefit of both
> Debian and Nokia, indeed. 

Agree


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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting David Weinehall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> Indeed.  The Nokia OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) that work on
> this product consists of several DD's (myself being one), plus at least
> one person in the NM-queue.  Some of our subcontractors are also DD's.


This should be IMHO publicized more widely, for the benefit of both
Debian and Nokia, indeed. 



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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Bastian Blank]

On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 11:23:14AM +0400, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote:
> The open source software component of the Nokia 770 can be downloaded from
> Maemo.org as a complete filesystem, or managed as a collection of Debian
> source and binary packages.

Yep, and many of the packages match the Debian versions an half year
ago.

Bastian

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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[David Weinehall]

On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 10:40:41AM +0200, Olivier Bornet wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > From: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS3716070830.html
> > 
> > ...
> > The open source software component of the Nokia 770 can be downloaded from
> > Maemo.org as a complete filesystem, or managed as a collection of Debian
> > source and binary packages.
> > ...
> 
> Right. I have received some information from a friend who is working on
> this product at Nokia, and he say it's Debian based, with a 2.6 kernel.

Indeed.  The Nokia OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) that work on
this product consists of several DD's (myself being one), plus at least
one person in the NM-queue.  Some of our subcontractors are also DD's.


Regards: David Weinehall
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Re: New Nokia device is Debian-based?

[Olivier Bornet]

Hello,

> From: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS3716070830.html
> 
> ...
> The open source software component of the Nokia 770 can be downloaded from
> Maemo.org as a complete filesystem, or managed as a collection of Debian
> source and binary packages.
> ...

Right. I have received some information from a friend who is working on
this product at Nokia, and he say it's Debian based, with a 2.6 kernel.

Good day.

Olivier
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