Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 05:00:13PM +0300, George Danchev wrote: > On Tuesday 15 August 2006 15:43, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > but that Solaris itself is not > > particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less > > drivers, or whatever). > > This is true, but OpenSolaris is getting better on that front. FWIW, I'm not very familiar with Solaris; I just tried to come up with an example of something that might be a plausible reason. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Tuesday 15 August 2006 15:43, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 11:46:49PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > > hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a > > Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its > > 'Desktop' task, perhaps? ;-) Solaris is really a bad reference to prove your Desktop claim. > A seasoned Solaris admin may very well be of the opinion that running a > Unix-like operating system on their desktop is much easier to support a > bunch of Solaris machines from, FWIW, virtual terminals are not officially supported in Solaris 8/9 for sparc and x86 (well, yes you can cheat and fight the system at your own risk), and it is no fun to type DOSish way on a single console... thus almost all installations I've ever seen have Xsun and CDE installed, no matter how server-wise they pretend to be. Sol9 comes with GNOME 2.x also ;-) > but that Solaris itself is not > particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less > drivers, or whatever). This is true, but OpenSolaris is getting better on that front. -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 11:46:49PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a > Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its > 'Desktop' task, perhaps? A seasoned Solaris admin may very well be of the opinion that running a Unix-like operating system on their desktop is much easier to support a bunch of Solaris machines from, but that Solaris itself is not particularly well suited to PC-class hardware (because it has less drivers, or whatever). -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
[Sorry for sending the message only to you John =(] Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:03:52 -0500 John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > Not if this is their first exposure to Debian. Say you were a > seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. > You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or > something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious > operating system, suitable for server-class work? > > I doubt it. hmmm... I don't think a sane seasoned Solaris admin would evaluate a Unix-like operating system for server-class work by installing its 'Desktop' task, perhaps? Again, this is clearly targeted at Desktop users. > > > If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that > > > states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by > > > simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. > > > > Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that > > would still be good for beginners? > > How about: > > "Important packages [list the packages] have been upgraded and > provide security or stability improvements. The easiest way to > make these improvements take effect is to reboot your system. > However, you may alternatively manually restart any services > that use these packages without a reboot." Sounds good, I'll take a look at how that could work, perhaps tomorrow. Thanks! -- Gustavo Noronha Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
> Please don't mess with gettext this way. You should ask Ubuntu people to
> rewrite the lines so that the 'branding' is removed or, at most, is handled
> by a variable that *is* replaced at runtime (this is what was introduced in
> Debian Installer). If you do string-based replacement you are going to miss
> (or break) non-ASCII based languages (think Japanese or Chinese).
This is what has been suggested on -i18n and what Gustavo will
probably do.
Even replacing branding by a variable is wrong as "Debian" or "Ubuntu"
may be variable in some languages...or influence the remaining of the
sentence.
For instance, if we say " of {Ubuntu|Debian}" in English,
it will translate to either "quelque chose d'Ubuntu" or "quelque chose
de Debian" in French...so using " of ${DISTRO}" in English
would be wrong.
The very very best is unbranding.
I would actually recommend all fellow Debian package maintainers to
think about this and try to avoid branding as much as possible (this
is for instance what has been done in D-I where "Debian" is mentioned
very very rarely).
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Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > The second feature is quite cool; update-notifier uses hal to detect > that a new CD/DVD was inserted and tries to figure out whether that is > a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to > avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by > Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD > that was inserted is a Debian CD. That is a *very* bad idea. Debian has a different genus in some languages from Ubuntu, which means that just replacing any occurrance of "Ubuntu" with "Debian" in those languages will render a sentence which is gramatically incorrect. Please don't do this. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:58:53 +0900 Charles Plessy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > Maybe a way to solve the problem would be to make clear in the package > name, documentation and popup messages that it is not a native Debian > tool? For instance, it could be called "Ubuntu update notifier for > Debian". That sounds a bit awkward to me... > In the end, it seems to me that the problem is more that the tool has > a name made only with dictionary words, which suggest that it is *the* > tool to use. In the future, there may be more update notifiers, each > with its own policy about when to reboot, when to relog, and so on, > and "update-notifier" would have an advantage over the others, which > is unfortunate because of the bad practices it promotes as you > pointed out. Actually, policy for 'when to reboot' would be done by packages. Since no packages run the 'notify-reboot-required' script today, the message would never show up. We could adopt the policy of only displaying the message on kernel upgrades, for example. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Le Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 09:03:52PM -0500, John Goerzen a écrit : > > Say you were a > seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. > You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or > something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious > operating system, suitable for server-class work? Maybe a way to solve the problem would be to make clear in the package name, documentation and popup messages that it is not a native Debian tool? For instance, it could be called "Ubuntu update notifier for Debian". In the end, it seems to me that the problem is more that the tool has a name made only with dictionary words, which suggest that it is *the* tool to use. In the future, there may be more update notifiers, each with its own policy about when to reboot, when to relog, and so on, and "update-notifier" would have an advantage over the others, which is unfortunate because of the bad practices it promotes as you pointed out. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > The second feature is quite cool; update-notifier uses hal to detect > that a new CD/DVD was inserted and tries to figure out whether that is > a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to > avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by > Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD > that was inserted is a Debian CD. Please don't mess with gettext this way. You should ask Ubuntu people to rewrite the lines so that the 'branding' is removed or, at most, is handled by a variable that *is* replaced at runtime (this is what was introduced in Debian Installer). If you do string-based replacement you are going to miss (or break) non-ASCII based languages (think Japanese or Chinese). Regards Javier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 09:45:02PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > Em Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:26:51 -0500 > John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > > > To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot > > is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services > > instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. > > Not really; if the machine does have an 'administrator': > > 1) they would probably be using their own methods of keeping software > up-to-date > 2) they'd know when to reboot, and would ignore the message (that's > what I'd do) Not if this is their first exposure to Debian. Say you were a seasoned Solaris admin, and you installed Debian to play around with. You get a prompt saying that you have to reboot because zlib or something has been upgraded. Are you going to think this is a serious operating system, suitable for server-class work? I doubt it. > > If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states > > that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply > > restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. > > Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that > would still be good for beginners? How about: "Important packages [list the packages] have been upgraded and provide security or stability improvements. The easiest way to make these improvements take effect is to reboot your system. However, you may alternatively manually restart any services that use these packages without a reboot." > It will not be disturbing you every once in a while, like windows > update, heh. Probably also won't be validating your machine with Microsoft, but still ;-) > So, again, notice that if a machine is on a network administered > centrally or has an 'administrator' for some other reason, there would > be no real need for update-notifier to be even installed, so I'd like to > focus here on end-user desktops, only. I understand, but I am concerned that people just learning Debian won't. Let's make Debian simple for the desktop user, certainly, but let's not lie to them in the process. A reboot really isn't necessary in Debian with pretty much anything but kernel updates, so let's not say that it is. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:31:50 +0200 Michal Politowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:29:13 -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > [...] > > a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and > > to avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu > > replaced by Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from > > gettext if the CD that was inserted is a Debian CD. > > Too bad this hack is not going to work in many languages (yes, Polish > is one of them). > Ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension ? Never heard of it by this name, but I knew it to exist. Unfortunately I didn't remember that while trying to avoid work duplication, sorry. That problem has been pointed out to me at debian-desktop as well, I'll change the way I handle this. Thanks, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:38:20 +0200 "Steinar H. Gunderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > > update-notifier is a program made by the Ubuntu guys which puts a > > notification icon in the notification area and warns the user about > > updates being available, and allowing them to run update-manager (a > > simple upgrade manager tool based on Synaptic). > > Odd. I installed Debian on my laptop a few weeks ago, and I seem to > regularily get notifications from update-manager for new packages > already. It would seem update-manager does this nicely all by > itself...? No, that is update-notifier notifying you. It is in Debian since quite some time now, though the 'you need to reboot' and CD detection were not working. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > update-notifier is a program made by the Ubuntu guys which puts a > notification icon in the notification area and warns the user about > updates being available, and allowing them to run update-manager (a > simple upgrade manager tool based on Synaptic). Odd. I installed Debian on my laptop a few weeks ago, and I seem to regularily get notifications from update-manager for new packages already. It would seem update-manager does this nicely all by itself...? /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:29:13 -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: [...] > a Ubuntu CD; I patched the program to also look for Debian CDs, and to > avoid messing with translations, the messages have Ubuntu replaced by > Debian in runtime, after the translation is got from gettext if the CD > that was inserted is a Debian CD. Too bad this hack is not going to work in many languages (yes, Polish is one of them). Ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension ? -- Michał Politowski Talking has been known to lead to communication if practiced carelessly. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
Em Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:26:51 -0500 John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > I understand that this tool may be aimed at those that don't have a > great deal of experience, but I think that you are presenting > misleading information to everyone. Exactly. > To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot > is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services > instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. Not really; if the machine does have an 'administrator': 1) they would probably be using their own methods of keeping software up-to-date 2) they'd know when to reboot, and would ignore the message (that's what I'd do) > If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states > that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply > restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. Even with those arguments in mind, do you have a suggested text that would still be good for beginners? > I like the idea of this program, but this particular thing gives me > the impression that Debian is regressing to something that's no > better than Windows Update under Windows 98. It will not be disturbing you every once in a while, like windows update, heh. So, again, notice that if a machine is on a network administered centrally or has an 'administrator' for some other reason, there would be no real need for update-notifier to be even installed, so I'd like to focus here on end-user desktops, only. See you, -- Gustavo Noronha Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://people.debian.org/~kov/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New desktop features provided by new version of update-notifier
On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:29:13PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: > > The first feature is useful for those packages which are critical, and > which really want a reboot after upgrade, such as kernel, perhaps libc, > and any library or package fixing security problems. These simply need > to run /usr/share/update-notifier/notify-reboot-required (which will > touch /var/run/reboot-required) on postinst, and a notification will > appear to the user at his desktop telling them that a reboot is > required, and allowing them after the package manager is done "applying > changes". I think this is, at best, misleading. The kernel is really the only thing that absolutely requires a reboot. Users can deal with the rest themselves, mostly. I understand that this tool may be aimed at those that don't have a great deal of experience, but I think that you are presenting misleading information to everyone. To say that any library fixing security problems will require a reboot is outrageous. It is quite possible to restart any impacted services instead. You're second-guessing the administrator's judgment. If you were to call this a *suggested reboot*, with text that states that a person could also achieve the desired effect by simply restarting certain processes, I'd have no problem with it. I like the idea of this program, but this particular thing gives me the impression that Debian is regressing to something that's no better than Windows Update under Windows 98. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
