Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:53:46PM +0100, Amir Bukhari wrote: > I have search in Internet, if some did that, or there is another tools > already work on debian, but I have not found any! If you know one. That > mean there is no need to port this package. Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 works quite fine here. Michael -- Comparing Neal to Jeroen is like comparing a demi-god to a fool.
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 23:00, Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:53:46PM +0100, Amir Bukhari wrote: > > I have search in Internet, if some did that, or there is another tools > > already work on debian, but I have not found any! If you know one. That > > mean there is no need to port this package. > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > works quite fine here. > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. For those of us who know about X, it's great - it saves me the few minutes I usually take to roll my own; but for lesser-sandalled users something simpler (and more prone to fucking up) is probably a good thing to have as well. (as long as the existing debconf stuff stays! :) Scott -- Scott James Remnant Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange http://netsplit.com/ things happen? Are you going round the twist? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:13:18PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > > works quite fine here. > > > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look > like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're set. Michael -- A.D. 1492: Christopher Columbus arrives in what he believes to be "India", but which RMS informs him is actually "GNU/India."
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 23:22, Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:13:18PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > > > works quite fine here. > > > > > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look > > like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > set. > Now explain that to my mother! :p Scott -- Scott James Remnant Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange http://netsplit.com/ things happen? Are you going round the twist? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:27:07PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 23:22, Michael Banck wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:13:18PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > > > > works quite fine here. > > > > > > > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look > > > like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. > > > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > > set. > > > Now explain that to my mother! :p [snip] Maybe what we want is a meta-package that depends on discover, read_edid, and mdetect. Perhaps with a script thrown in that integrates them into a single command. Just my $0.02. T -- Recently, our IT department hired a bug-fix engineer. He used to work for Volkswagen.
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 06:42:43PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > > > set. > > > > > Now explain that to my mother! :p > [snip] > > Maybe what we want is a meta-package that depends on discover, read_edid, > and mdetect. Maybe what we need are people who read package descriptions prior to install: Package: xserver-xfree86 [...] Suggests: discover, mdetect, read-edid [...] If the discover, mdetect and read-edid packages are installed, the debconf scripts in this package will use them to attempt automatic configuration of the X server based on your information returned by your video card, mouse, and monitor. Michael -- Intel. Bringing you the cutting-edge technology of 1979 for 22 years now.
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:27:07PM +, Scott James Remnant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 23:22, Michael Banck wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:13:18PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > > > > works quite fine here. > > > > > > > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look > > > like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. > > > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > > set. > > > Now explain that to my mother! :p That's not a problem with the tools, it's a problem with the installation process (which currently does just about zero hardware detection for you, and isn't smart enough to pre-install those packages) Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ | swapon /dev/ram | \--- (if (not (understand-this)) (go-to http://www.schemers.org)) /
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 23:50, Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 06:42:43PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > > > > set. > > > > > > > Now explain that to my mother! :p > > [snip] > > > > Maybe what we want is a meta-package that depends on discover, read_edid, > > and mdetect. > > Maybe what we need are people who read package descriptions prior to > install: > > Package: xserver-xfree86 > [...] > Suggests: discover, mdetect, read-edid > [...] > These aren't included in the "X window system" task... Given that's how most users (most notably the non-technical who would benefit from them) install X - should these be added to that? Scott -- Scott James Remnant Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange http://netsplit.com/ things happen? Are you going round the twist? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 12:03:31AM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > These aren't included in the "X window system" task... Given that's how > most users (most notably the non-technical who would benefit from them) > install X - should these be added to that? i agree. perhaps the X task should include these packages, and then the xserver-xfree86 package can check for these, and if they exist, before creating the config file ask "do you want me to try and automatically figure out your X config with these other programs that i already have?" it would also be really cool if it detected nvidia based cards and told the users how to install the nvidia-kernel-src/nvidia-glx packages :) sean pgpJXbLmiCPSD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, sean finney wrote: > i agree. perhaps the X task should include these packages, and then Definitely. > the xserver-xfree86 package can check for these, and if they exist, before I doubt this would help much. If I'm not missleaded the configure script is called before the files of packages are installed. Thus I'm not really sure whether there is access to the tools which are needed if they are installed all at the same time on a fresh box. Just a thought Andreas.
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 07:58:58AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote: > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, sean finney wrote: > > the xserver-xfree86 package can check for these, and if they exist, before > I doubt this would help much. If I'm not missleaded the configure > script is called before the files of packages are installed. Thus > I'm not really sure whether there is access to the tools which are needed > if they are installed all at the same time on a fresh box. right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? sean pgpCYiv2HciK9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Michael Banck wrote: > Maybe what we need are people who read package descriptions prior to > install Debian picking it's users instead of users picking Debian. *t -- --- Tomas Pospisek SourcePole - Linux & Open Source Solutions http://sourcepole.ch Elestastrasse 18, 7310 Bad Ragaz, Switzerland Tel: +41 (81) 330 77 11 ---
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
hi, On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 12:22:05AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:13:18PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > > > Dunno how you feel about this, but dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 > > > works quite fine here. > > > > > It does kinda assume you know what you want your config file to look > > like, asking you about drivers and so-forth. > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > set. it's not userfriendly? that's the whole point of it actually. and X based GUIs are way nicer than text based GUIs. and it's also not userfriendly to go and say "go read the package descriptions". that's ok for advanced users, I doubt a beginner, overwhelmed with new things, can handle that. the frustration level is maybe a bit too high and dump debian altogether. so why hinder ease of use? :) so long Othmar
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Le jeu 05/12/2002 à 09:05, sean finney a écrit : > > I doubt this would help much. If I'm not missleaded the configure > > script is called before the files of packages are installed. Thus > > I'm not really sure whether there is access to the tools which are needed > > if they are installed all at the same time on a fresh box. > > right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at configuration time. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
After all I have readed in reply of my Post, I have understand, that I can begin Porting this program to debian, and I see if it could be integreted to debian installation process ;-) .
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Wednesday 04 December 2002 23:50, Michael Banck wrote: > On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 06:42:43PM -0500, H. S. Teoh wrote: > > > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and > > > > you're set. > > > > > > Now explain that to my mother! :p > > > > [snip] > > > > Maybe what we want is a meta-package that depends on discover, read_edid, > > and mdetect. > > Maybe what we need are people who read package descriptions prior to > install: > > Package: xserver-xfree86 > [...] > Suggests: discover, mdetect, read-edid > [...] > If the discover, mdetect and read-edid packages are installed, the debconf > scripts in this package will use them to attempt automatic configuration > of the X server based on your information returned by your video card, > mouse, and monitor. > > Michael Not only will most people only read the top level package description, i.e. x-window-system, but if they are using apt-get the suggested pacakged are not even offered as an option. Perhaps apt-get needs as option which says either treat suggests as requires, or ask for confirmation on suggests. David
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 09:44:08AM +0100, Othmar Pasteka wrote: > it's not userfriendly? that's the whole point of it actually. and > X based GUIs are way nicer than text based GUIs. > and it's also not userfriendly to go and say "go read the package > descriptions". Shure its userfriendly, but does this X Configurator also well on my 486 DX that should play my homerouter with Debian ? Does the Dialog Setup ? -> yes it does ! Ever tried installing SuSE or RedHat with its great graphical installer on old machines ? they suck, Debian not, and thats one of the greatest advantage Debian has. (And one of the greatest advantages LINUX has, but this other Distributions Destroy them cause of X only Setups.) If i have to decide between nice graphical installer, and a nice Dialog Setup, i will prefer the Dialg Setup ! -- greetings /*/ michael ablassmeier
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Amir Bukhari wrote: Michael Ablassmeier wrote: If i have to decide between nice graphical installer, and a nice Dialog Setup, i will prefer the Dialg Setup ! but Xconfigurator has also Dialog setup. I have compiled it and it has found my Graphic Card and my Monitor frequency, but I should change the way to configure mouse and keyboard and the XF86Config, so it run under Debian. All this in text mode setup.
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 09:44:08AM +0100, Othmar Pasteka wrote: > > Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > > set. > > it's not userfriendly? that's the whole point of it actually. and > X based GUIs are way nicer than text based GUIs. Didn't we have graphical debconf frontends? > and it's also not userfriendly to go and say "go read the package > descriptions". that's ok for advanced users, I doubt a beginner, > overwhelmed with new things, can handle that. the frustration > level is maybe a bit too high and dump debian altogether. so why > hinder ease of use? :) Sure. I was just stating that's its actually *possible* to do it, not that everyone should be happy with it. There's always room for improvement, e.g. using those above packages when doing dpkg-reconfigure in case they have been installed since or of course somehow adding them to the base system. It's just a pity this couldn't be done for woody. Michael -- "Naja, wenn eine Frau mit zwei Kerlen im Bett liegt und dann Margarine holen geht, bedeutet das für mich was anderes. Die Frage ist, ob das die Werbung auch aussagen will.." -- Eva Hugelmann über die Lätta^2 Werbung
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:14:18AM +0100, Amir Bukhari wrote: > After all I have readed in reply of my Post, I have understand, that I > can begin Porting this program to debian, > and I see if it could be integreted to debian installation process ;-) . I don't want to discourage you from porting it at all, but The debian install process will make heavy use of debconf for the next release. Plugging in a totally different kind of configuration tool might not be feasable, dunno. Michael -- "The very first use of Unix in the 'real business' of Bell Labs was to type and produce patent applications" -- Dennis Ritchie
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
* Scott James Remnant | These aren't included in the "X window system" task... Given that's | how most users (most notably the non-technical who would benefit | from them) install X - should these be added to that? This is already taken care of for the next revision of b-f, AIUI. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 12:04:00PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:14:18AM +0100, Amir Bukhari wrote: > > After all I have readed in reply of my Post, I have understand, that I > > can begin Porting this program to debian, > > and I see if it could be integreted to debian installation process ;-) . > > I don't want to discourage you from porting it at all, but The debian > install process will make heavy use of debconf for the next release. > Plugging in a totally different kind of configuration tool might not be > feasable, dunno. I belive the new Debian Installer will be using hardware detection by default. This may make Xconfigurator unneeded for the installer. Additionally, since the installer will be using cdebconf exclusively, it would be necessary to build a front-end for Xconfigurator using the debconf method. However providing the application as an alternative method of configuring X seems reasonable. I recommend packaging it seperately from the installer, and then discussing the matter with the [debian-boot] group. This may save you a great deal of headache. Good Luck, Matthew McGuire
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 09:20:30AM +, David Goodenough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > Not only will most people only read the top level package description, i.e. > x-window-system, but if they are using apt-get the suggested pacakged are > not even offered as an option. Perhaps apt-get needs as option which says > either treat suggests as requires, or ask for confirmation on suggests. Trust me, you don't want to treat Suggests as Depends. Try "aptitude -s --with-suggests install x-window-system" in a clean chroot if you don't believe me.. (I'm sure there was another, even more innocent looking package, which would install about 1G of stuff on your hard drive if you followed all suggests, but I can't remember what it was now) Daniel -- / Daniel Burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---\ | "A game which, from the viewpoint of the other players (ie, everyone) might | | be compared to playing poker with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a | | Dealer who won't tell you the rules and who /smiles all the time/."| | -- Terry Pratchett, _Good Omens_ | \- The Turtle Moves! -- http://www.lspace.org /
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
> Install discover, read-edid and mdetect before you install X, and you're > set. > mdetect hopefully doesn't choke on an USB-mouse anymore! O. Wyss
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > * Scott James Remnant > > | These aren't included in the "X window system" task... Given that's > | how most users (most notably the non-technical who would benefit > | from them) install X - should these be added to that? > > This is already taken care of for the next revision of b-f, AIUI. It is? I don't remember taking care of it in base-config and IIRC it seemed to need modifications to the cdroms (to make the discover, mdetect and read-edid packages available) and base-config (to install them before setting up X). -- see shy jo pgpXOcFhrGP0l.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:00:21AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le jeu 05/12/2002 à 09:05, sean finney a écrit : > > > right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? > > The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even > installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at > configuration time. Please, check policy and rewrite your statement. Quote: "This field is like Depends, except that it also forces dpkg to complete installation of the packages named before even starting the installation of the package which declares the pre-dependency, as follows: " J -- Jesus Climent | Unix SysAdm | Helsinki, Finland | pumuki.hispalinux.es GPG: 1024D/86946D69 BB64 2339 1CAA 7064 E429 7E18 66FC 1D7F 8694 6D69 -- Registered Linux user #66350 proudly using Debian 3.0 & Linux 2.4.20 I've decided what to do with my life. I wanna be a cleaner. --Mathilda (Leon, the Cleaner) pgpUeOEbpvkAF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Jesus Climent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:00:21AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: >> Le jeu 05/12/2002 à 09:05, sean finney a écrit : >>> right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? >> The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even >> installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at >> configuration time. > Please, check policy and rewrite your statement. > Quote: > "This field is like Depends, except that it also forces dpkg to complete > installation of the packages named before even starting the installation > of the package which declares the pre-dependency, as follows: " Hello, The whole point of dpkg-preconfigure is that you get asked all debconf questions *before* the real installation starts and you can go and have one or two beers while your computer does the actual installation instead of sitting in front of your computer and answering one question every three minutes. Just for reference (2.3.8.1. Prompting in maintainer scripts): | Packages which use the Debian Configuration management specification | may contain an additional `config' script and a `templates' file in | their control archive. The `config' script might be run before the | `preinst' script, and before the package is unpacked or any of its | dependencies or pre-dependancies are satisfied. Therefore it must | work using only the tools present in _essential_ packages.[2] It would be nice if this was crossreferenced from 6 or if 6 included "config". cu andreas -- Hey, da ist ein Ballonautomat auf der Toilette! Unofficial _Debian-packages_ of latest unstable _tin_ http://www.logic.univie.ac.at/~ametzler/debian/tin-snapshot/
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Hello Josselin, Am 10:00 2002-12-05 +0100 hat Josselin Mouette geschrieben: >> right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? > >The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even >installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at >configuration time. This is realy bizzar !!! How can you configure a package which need pre-depends ? If you try to configure such Package, the config-script exits with an error. Possibel the Config-Script needs values from a pre-depencie... Michelle
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 08:19:43PM +, Michelle Konzack wrote: > Am 10:00 2002-12-05 +0100 hat Josselin Mouette geschrieben: > >The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even > >installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at > >configuration time. > > This is realy bizzar !!! Not really. How do you do preconfiguration otherwise? > How can you configure a package which need pre-depends ? You don't. You can only use essential packages in a .config script. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!
Hello Josselin, Am 10:00 2002-12-05 +0100 hat Josselin Mouette geschrieben: >> right, but isn't that what Pre-Depends is for? > >The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even >installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at >configuration time. This is realy bizzar !!! How can you configure a package which need pre-depends ? If you try to configure such Package, the config-script exits with an error. Possibel the Config-Script needs values from a pre-depencie... Michelle
Smarter preconfiguration (Re: Porting Xconfigurator to Debian!)
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:00:21AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: > The configure script is usually launched before the Pre-Depends are even > installed. There is currently no way to ensure a package is installed at > configuration time. A non-essential package, anyway. Essential is probably plenty for asking questions, and there are those who would argue that that is all that should happen at preconfiguration time. However, in order to provide hardware detection and other kinds of dynamic defaults, dynamic question ordering/suppression based on the state of the system, etc., more tools are needed. If autodetection doesn't run until the package is configured, the results can't be used to provide intelligent prompting (which would clearly be the most intuitive behaviour). Some packages, notably xserver-xfree86, already implement some autodetection at preconfiguration time, but since the autodetection tools are not normally installed (neither during initial system installation nor when installing on an existing system), I doubt more than a few users have noticed this amidst rants of lacking autodetection. -- - mdz
