Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?)from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-21 Thread Ola Lundqvist
On Sat, Mar 19, 2005 at 09:36:38AM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
 Ola Lundqvist dijo [Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 09:19:45PM +0100]:
   And would a larger discussion at debconf'05 not have been more appropriate
   than handing done a couple of taken decision disguised as proposal ? 
   
   It is not too late for this yet, but there needs to be a real discussion 
   with
   real facts, and not just a list of resolution letting 8/11th of the 
   project in
   the cold.
  
  Please take this kind of discussions on debian-devel as it is possible
  for people not attending on debconf be a part of the discussion.
 
 I do believe that Debconf is an ideal place for this - Having 150 of
 us together might mean having 40 of us interested in joining this
 discussion, brainstorming (and shouting at each other) for ~2hr
 instead of over 600 messages, and coming up with something similar to
 the Vancouver stuff - a summary of the points reached, not a firm
 decision... But a summary with more adherents. And more people
 convinced by the release and ftp teams on what and why (or people in
 those teams convinced back, or... whatever :) )
 
 Of course, if you cannot make it to Debconf, you will know about the
 discussion results. In fact, Debconf plans to capture audio/video of
 the sessions at the auditoriums, so you might even participate via
 IRC. 

That would be good. I'm probably interested in that.

 I intended to propose this topic for a round table, but was asked to
 wait on this by one of the release members, as they were close to
 announcing the Vancouver stuff... Anyway, I am not formally proposing
 it, but I do expect it to happen - After all, we will be in HEL ;-)

:)

Regards,

// Ola

 Greetings,
 
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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?)from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-19 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Ola Lundqvist dijo [Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 09:19:45PM +0100]:
  And would a larger discussion at debconf'05 not have been more appropriate
  than handing done a couple of taken decision disguised as proposal ? 
  
  It is not too late for this yet, but there needs to be a real discussion 
  with
  real facts, and not just a list of resolution letting 8/11th of the project 
  in
  the cold.
 
 Please take this kind of discussions on debian-devel as it is possible
 for people not attending on debconf be a part of the discussion.

I do believe that Debconf is an ideal place for this - Having 150 of
us together might mean having 40 of us interested in joining this
discussion, brainstorming (and shouting at each other) for ~2hr
instead of over 600 messages, and coming up with something similar to
the Vancouver stuff - a summary of the points reached, not a firm
decision... But a summary with more adherents. And more people
convinced by the release and ftp teams on what and why (or people in
those teams convinced back, or... whatever :) )

Of course, if you cannot make it to Debconf, you will know about the
discussion results. In fact, Debconf plans to capture audio/video of
the sessions at the auditoriums, so you might even participate via
IRC. 

I intended to propose this topic for a round table, but was asked to
wait on this by one of the release members, as they were close to
announcing the Vancouver stuff... Anyway, I am not formally proposing
it, but I do expect it to happen - After all, we will be in HEL ;-)

Greetings,

-- 
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PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973  F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF


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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-15 Thread Christian Perrier

 I do not understand why the Nybbles team mixed their good news about
 sarge with their foreseeably controversial plans or proposal for etch.

This may have been a strategical error, yes.

For me, the Vancouver meeting goal was obviously the sarge release and
IMHO, they achieved their goal very well.

My interpretation is that doing so, interesting ideas cam to float
around and  were formalized enough for the post-sarge plans to be
announced.

We should be realistic : this meeting was a good opportunity of
getting together what we can call key people (no offense intended at
all...far from this) and thus a good opportunity for these key people
to make proposals.

OK, experience shows that they should probably have separated the
things about sarge release and the things about post-sarge
ideas/plans/whatever, as everyone knows that *any* proposal made in
Debian triggers a counterproductive flamew^W endless discussion.

I suppose there were reasons for this and I grant the Vancouver
meeting people enough respect for having good reasons...even if this
ends up in being a strategical error.

My personal concern now is avoiding to throw out the baby with the
bath's water as we say in French.

OK, the architecture handling is controversial. Fine...this will
probably delay etch more than we would like. But could we please focus
on releasing sarge first? By focus, I also mean avoidn wasting
valuable DD time to endless discussions (no real human can read this
thread already), flamewars and personal attacks (I'm quite saddened by
Julien's hard attacks and proposal to do the Revolution).

This thread obviously shows that some more real life discussions are
needed about post-sarge plans and I don't doubt that involved people
will welcome more contributions and start thinking again.

This is very likely to be my last contribution to this thread
except in sub-threads dealing with sarge release.


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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-15 Thread Julien BLACHE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 OK, the architecture handling is controversial. Fine...this will
 probably delay etch more than we would like. But could we please focus
 on releasing sarge first? By focus, I also mean avoidn wasting
 valuable DD time to endless discussions (no real human can read this
 thread already), flamewars and personal attacks (I'm quite saddened by
 Julien's hard attacks and proposal to do the Revolution).

Christian, I am quite disappointed to read this.

Please realize that the so-called proposal is nothing else than a
plan, that would be enforced if this thread wasn't taking place.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what has been discussed
previously. The authors are the same who said repeteadly that the
number of architectures wasn't reponsible for the sarge delay.

Now, apply the same kind of plan to i18n/l10n. You'd probably feel
insulted too.

JB.

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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-15 Thread Joey Hess
Julien BLACHE wrote:
 It has absolutely nothing to do with what has been discussed
 previously. The authors are the same who said repeteadly that the
 number of architectures wasn't reponsible for the sarge delay.

The above statement is incorrect. If you disagree, you'll need to pull
up references.

-- 
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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-15 Thread Ola Lundqvist
Hello

On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 12:43:11AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
 On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 05:32:44PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
  Frank Küster wrote:
   I do not understand why the Nybbles team mixed their good news about
   sarge with their foreseeably controversial plans or proposal for etch.
   I fear that we will have a huge, long flamewar.  And many competent,
   active people will start coding implementations of alternatives to the
   Nybbles plan, alternatives that will allow us to make releases also of
   the SCC/tier-2 arches.
   
   I think all this discussion about etch should be delayed until sarge is
   out.  Of course we would need a statement from the Nybbles team that
   they do not intend to make decicions, and not to settle facts before a
   thorough discussion has taken place - after the release.
  
  The fact that the release team now sees the light at the end of the
  tunnel for the release of sarge means that now is the time we need to
  begin planning for etch. Allowing unstable development to pick back up
  after a release with no clear plan for the next release has been shown
  time and time again to delay the next release by one to two *years*.
  The rest follows from that.
 
 And would a larger discussion at debconf'05 not have been more appropriate
 than handing done a couple of taken decision disguised as proposal ? 
 
 It is not too late for this yet, but there needs to be a real discussion with
 real facts, and not just a list of resolution letting 8/11th of the project in
 the cold.

Please take this kind of discussions on debian-devel as it is possible
for people not attending on debconf be a part of the discussion.

Regards,

// Ola

 Friendly,
 
 Sven Luther
 
 
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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-14 Thread Joey Hess
Frank Küster wrote:
 I do not understand why the Nybbles team mixed their good news about
 sarge with their foreseeably controversial plans or proposal for etch.
 I fear that we will have a huge, long flamewar.  And many competent,
 active people will start coding implementations of alternatives to the
 Nybbles plan, alternatives that will allow us to make releases also of
 the SCC/tier-2 arches.
 
 I think all this discussion about etch should be delayed until sarge is
 out.  Of course we would need a statement from the Nybbles team that
 they do not intend to make decicions, and not to settle facts before a
 thorough discussion has taken place - after the release.

The fact that the release team now sees the light at the end of the
tunnel for the release of sarge means that now is the time we need to
begin planning for etch. Allowing unstable development to pick back up
after a release with no clear plan for the next release has been shown
time and time again to delay the next release by one to two *years*.
The rest follows from that.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Release sarge now, or discuss etch issues? (was: Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting)

2005-03-14 Thread Sven Luther
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 05:32:44PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
 Frank Küster wrote:
  I do not understand why the Nybbles team mixed their good news about
  sarge with their foreseeably controversial plans or proposal for etch.
  I fear that we will have a huge, long flamewar.  And many competent,
  active people will start coding implementations of alternatives to the
  Nybbles plan, alternatives that will allow us to make releases also of
  the SCC/tier-2 arches.
  
  I think all this discussion about etch should be delayed until sarge is
  out.  Of course we would need a statement from the Nybbles team that
  they do not intend to make decicions, and not to settle facts before a
  thorough discussion has taken place - after the release.
 
 The fact that the release team now sees the light at the end of the
 tunnel for the release of sarge means that now is the time we need to
 begin planning for etch. Allowing unstable development to pick back up
 after a release with no clear plan for the next release has been shown
 time and time again to delay the next release by one to two *years*.
 The rest follows from that.

And would a larger discussion at debconf'05 not have been more appropriate
than handing done a couple of taken decision disguised as proposal ? 

It is not too late for this yet, but there needs to be a real discussion with
real facts, and not just a list of resolution letting 8/11th of the project in
the cold.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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