Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 22:11 -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Still, regardless of whether the state of Utah recognizes a marriage, that is surely a different question from whether the marriage has, in fact, occurred. Making that distinction is, IMO, cracking open a very large barrel of very nasty monkeys. Not really. Suppose we have two seventeen-year-olds, whose parents are opposed to their marriage. In Utah, you can only get married without parental consent if you are eighteen. But these happy folks of seventeen are in Mississippi, where their marriage is legal even without parental consent. Suppose Mississippi allows bigamy... Or, more in keeping with the traditions of the region (remember Jerry Lee Louis?), drops the age of consent to 12, and a 35yo man marries a 12yo girl. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/africanlives/ivory/ivory.htm The practice of forcing girls into marriage took hold decades ago throughout sub-Saharan Africa and is especially widespread in countries there with large Muslim populations. The marriages typically occur within clans, the girl compelled to wed a distant relative—often two or three times he Is a man with a child bride who immigrate from Ivory still legally married in the US? Then, they move to Utah, and enroll in BYU. Would BYU say ah, in Utah, you cannot be married until you are eighteen, so, sorry, no, you are expelled?! Of course not. BYU would say, While you cannot marry in Utah at your age, you can in Mississippi, and you did, and God bless, you are married. So the rule BYU would invoke would not be we only recognize marriages that would be legal under the laws of Utah. The rule would be we recognize different-sex marriages no matter where performed, provided they are legal under the local laws where performed, and same sex marriages, never, no matter what. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA The warning message we sent the Russians was a calculated ambiguity that would be clearly understood. Alexander Haig
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
You are completely off-topic and you know it. Please continue this discussion somewhere else, e.g. debian-curiosa or, better yet, in private mail. Thank you. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Mar 21 8:03-0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 20 Mar 2006, Greg Conner told this: So we got caught trying to br BYU students. You guys win that battle. Interestingly enough: ,[ http://honorcode.byu.edu/Ecclesiastical_Endorsement.htm ] | Requirements | | Whether on or off campus, or between semesters, all students are | expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes: the Academic | Honesty Policy, the Dress and Grooming Standards, and the Residential | Living Standards. Students are required to be in good Honor Code | Standing to graduate. ` As you probably already know, Manoj, Honor Codes like this are not meant to be applied as strictly as they claim. The strictness is intended to provide only for the exercise of power. Gay students at BYU can expect to be expelled instantly, on the grounds that the Honor Code knows no flexibility or compassion; and then, as we have seen and can expect, lying is tolerated. Actually, I think BYU takes their honor code very seriously (with the exception of the football team). If you were to report such behavior to the proper person, there would likely be some disciplinary action taken to match the seriousness of the offense (impersonating someone could be considered quite serious). And to be fair, any students involved in extramarital sexual relations should expect immediate expulsion (if anyone found out), this is not selectively applied to gay people. -- Eldon -- BOFH excuse #202: kernel panic: write-only-memory (/dev/wom0) capacity exceeded. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, I think BYU takes their honor code very seriously (with the exception of the football team). If you were to report such behavior to the proper person, there would likely be some disciplinary action taken to match the seriousness of the offense (impersonating someone could be considered quite serious). And to be fair, any students involved in extramarital sexual relations should expect immediate expulsion (if anyone found out), this is not selectively applied to gay people. So, if a married same-sex couple were students at BYU, that would be fine? Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, I think BYU takes their honor code very seriously (with the exception of the football team). If you were to report such behavior to the proper person, there would likely be some disciplinary action taken to match the seriousness of the offense (impersonating someone could be considered quite serious). And to be fair, any students involved in extramarital sexual relations should expect immediate expulsion (if anyone found out), this is not selectively applied to gay people. BYU will happily expel gay people who do such things as kiss, even if they are not sexually active. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, I think BYU takes their honor code very seriously (with the exception of the football team). What does such an exception mean? That the honor code isn't really taken seriously? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Apr 18 20:28-0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, I think BYU takes their honor code very seriously (with the exception of the football team). What does such an exception mean? That the honor code isn't really taken seriously? I was being cynical, I don't know if they really make exceptions for the football team. I was alluding to the fact that it could be quite difficult to keep a football team under the BYU honor code. -- If entropy is increasing, where is it coming from? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Apr 18 20:27-0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: So, if a married same-sex couple were students at BYU, that would be fine? BYU is a private, religious school. The church which runs it will never acknowledge a same-sex couple as married. Also, most states do not recognize same-sex marriages in the first place. In the belief system of this religion, said marriages cannot make sense. -- Eldon -- BOFH excuse #144: Too few computrons available. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Apr 18 20:27-0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: So, if a married same-sex couple were students at BYU, that would be fine? BYU is a private, religious school. The church which runs it will never acknowledge a same-sex couple as married. Also, most states do not recognize same-sex marriages in the first place. In the belief system of this religion, said marriages cannot make sense. As I said, the BYU honor code is enforced strictly against gay students, and laxly agaist others. There is ample evidence of this. Moreover, pointing to the reason for BYU's bigotry does not somehow turn them into a non-bigoted instutitution. Their bigotry is bigotry whatever label they give it. My point is that the honor code is *not* equitable, and is not enforced equitably. The honor code prohibits gay people from even holding hands, while allowing suitably private heterosexual equivalents. And (as you happily note) the institution does not recognize certain married couples. Once, it refused to recognize interracial marriages. Now it refuses to recognize same-sex couples. But BYU does not decide who is married. If a same-sex couple is married, and BYU does not recognize them (whatever that means), this is *exactly* what one means by saying they have anti-gay bigotry and bias, and that they do *not* treat gay and straight people equally. Your deliciously deceptive statement, that heck, *all* extramarital sex is frowned upon, but marital sex is fine, is not, in fact, right. In the eyes of BYU, some marriages are more equal than others. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 21:14 -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Eldon Koyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Apr 18 20:27-0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: So, if a married same-sex couple were students at BYU, that would be fine? BYU is a private, religious school. The church which runs it will never acknowledge a same-sex couple as married. Also, most states do not recognize same-sex marriages in the first place. In the belief system of this religion, said marriages cannot make sense. [snip] Your deliciously deceptive statement, that heck, *all* extramarital sex is frowned upon, but marital sex is fine, is not, in fact, right. In the eyes of BYU, some marriages are more equal than others. Is same-sex marriage legally recognized in Utah? If not, then there is only hetero marriage. You can't discriminate against what doesn't exist. Anyway, this is getting pretty far OT. Shouldn't it be moved to debian-user? :-O -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA It is a fair summary of history to say that the safeguards of liberty have been forged in controversies involving not very nice people. Felix Frankfurter, Supreme Court Justice -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is same-sex marriage legally recognized in Utah? If not, then there is only hetero marriage. You can't discriminate against what doesn't exist. To my knowledge, the courts of Utah have never said anything about same-sex marriages entered into in other jurisdictions. Still, regardless of whether the state of Utah recognizes a marriage, that is surely a different question from whether the marriage has, in fact, occurred. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 21:48 -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is same-sex marriage legally recognized in Utah? If not, then there is only hetero marriage. You can't discriminate against what doesn't exist. To my knowledge, the courts of Utah have never said anything about same-sex marriages entered into in other jurisdictions. Still, regardless of whether the state of Utah recognizes a marriage, that is surely a different question from whether the marriage has, in fact, occurred. Making that distinction is, IMO, cracking open a very large barrel of very nasty monkeys. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA Whatever may be the moral ambiguities of the so-called demoratic nations and however serious may be their failure to conform perfectly to their democratic ideals, it is sheer moral perversity to equate the inconsistencies of a democratic civilization with the brutalities which modern tyrannical states practice. Reinhold Nieburhr, ca. 1940 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Still, regardless of whether the state of Utah recognizes a marriage, that is surely a different question from whether the marriage has, in fact, occurred. Making that distinction is, IMO, cracking open a very large barrel of very nasty monkeys. Not really. Suppose we have two seventeen-year-olds, whose parents are opposed to their marriage. In Utah, you can only get married without parental consent if you are eighteen. But these happy folks of seventeen are in Mississippi, where their marriage is legal even without parental consent. Then, they move to Utah, and enroll in BYU. Would BYU say ah, in Utah, you cannot be married until you are eighteen, so, sorry, no, you are expelled?! Of course not. BYU would say, While you cannot marry in Utah at your age, you can in Mississippi, and you did, and God bless, you are married. So the rule BYU would invoke would not be we only recognize marriages that would be legal under the laws of Utah. The rule would be we recognize different-sex marriages no matter where performed, provided they are legal under the local laws where performed, and same sex marriages, never, no matter what. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Mon, Mar 20, 2006 at 05:54:32PM -0800, Greg Conner wrote: PS.. For further evidence on how poor your leadership is, I refer you to how much caos there is on your mailing lists. You can't keep your release managers: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg8.html ... who's now a candidate to become DPL. Your point? You have no control over your ftpmasters who act like they run the world. Err, I've never seen any ftpmaster act like that. Evidence to the contrary will be scrutinized, but I guess you won't be able to come up with any. You do nothing but put each other down. I refere top all the posts about svenl. You all don't know how to work together at all. Thanks for the compliment. And for the good (ahem) example you're showing here. You have the biggest reputation of all distros as being jerks to others. Which is a pity, because it's only a (very vocal) minority which is a bunch of jerks. Then pawn off your cowardice by saying we're all just volunteers We are, aren't we? You lose half your Developer wannabies, NMs, because your mentor program is lousy and you are more worried about making people suffer through the buracracy allowing people who honestly want to help Debian to do so. See http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/12/msg4.html Are you suggesting we should allow everyone who wants it to have effective root on all Debian installations out there? Surely you must be joking. You say it takes you guys a long time to release packages because you want them bug free. HA!!! Things like gnome 2.12 come out and it isn't in Unstable for like 3 months. It would take less time to get packages ready for stable if you would put them in Unstable. Have you actually ever tried to prepare a Debian package? You talk about how much care you put into finding good developers, but you can't even get them to work for you: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/01/msg4.html YOu have to threaten them to work, and yet the bugs are still there. etc... we could keep going but there is not enough time in the day. In short, get a new Leadership,(WE are aware of new DPL Elections), but who For reference, the SCO thing was a joke. The fact that you think we really believe that makes it clear how less you understand. Ideas to improve Debian are, and have always been, welcome. But telling people who've been able to build a consistent and functional system for over a decade that you suck, this is how you should do stuff is just trolling. _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Hah! -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 09:53:38AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Mon, Mar 20, 2006 at 05:54:32PM -0800, Greg Conner wrote: PS.. For further evidence on how poor your leadership is, I refer you to how much caos there is on your mailing lists. You can't keep your release managers: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg8.html ... who's now a candidate to become DPL. Your point? Err, sorry, I misread that one. Thought Greg was referring to Aj resigning after the first GFDL vote here. -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On 20 Mar 2006, Greg Conner told this: It must be SCO. They have cleverly disguised themselves as BYU students. :-) -Roberto So we got caught trying to br BYU students. You guys win that battle. Interestingly enough: ,[ http://honorcode.byu.edu/Ecclesiastical_Endorsement.htm ] | Requirements | | Whether on or off campus, or between semesters, all students are | expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes: the Academic | Honesty Policy, the Dress and Grooming Standards, and the Residential | Living Standards. Students are required to be in good Honor Code | Standing to graduate. ` ,[ http://honorcode.byu.edu/Honor_Code.htm ] | Honor Code Statement | | We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in | doing good to all men... If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of | good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things (Thirteenth | Article of Faith). | | As a matter of personal commitment, students, faculty, and staff of | Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Brigham | Young University-Idaho, and LDS Business College are expected to | demonstrate in daily living on and off campus those moral virtues | encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will | | * Be honest | SNIP ` manoj -- Omissions, no less than commissions, are often times branches of injustice. Antoninus Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 20 Mar 2006, Greg Conner told this: So we got caught trying to br BYU students. You guys win that battle. Interestingly enough: ,[ http://honorcode.byu.edu/Ecclesiastical_Endorsement.htm ] | Requirements | | Whether on or off campus, or between semesters, all students are | expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes: the Academic | Honesty Policy, the Dress and Grooming Standards, and the Residential | Living Standards. Students are required to be in good Honor Code | Standing to graduate. ` As you probably already know, Manoj, Honor Codes like this are not meant to be applied as strictly as they claim. The strictness is intended to provide only for the exercise of power. Gay students at BYU can expect to be expelled instantly, on the grounds that the Honor Code knows no flexibility or compassion; and then, as we have seen and can expect, lying is tolerated. Honor Codes like this are not descriptions of reality--whether the reality of how people behave, or the reality of what standards are enforced. (For another example, see the Honor Codes at the US service academies, which institutions not only are plagued by religious discrimination and violence against women, but in which that very discrimination and violence is tolerated for years by the power-holders in the institution.) The Honor Code is not a description of actual behavior or actual disciplinary expectations. It is a tool for the exercise of power; it is an attempt to make the institution seem more honorable than it actually is. It is ironic in the extreme, of course, that it should be promulgated by an institution with a history of bigotry as deeply entrenched as BYU! Things like Honor Codes are self-presentations, attempts to depict one's institution as something other than as it is, and to serve as a touchstone for the celebration of and deployment of arbitrary and unbridled power. In other words, the Honor Code (despite the words all students) is not meant to apply to all students. It is meant to be a cover for the self-righteousness of some to exercise their power as they please over the others. For those who are officially honorable (no matter how much they may lie, cheat, or steal), the Honor Code is not enforced, and never will be. The attentive reader may see parallels to certain events in Debian's history. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So we got caught, so what? But we did the right thing.
On 20 Mar 2006, Greg Conner told this: It must be SCO. They have cleverly disguised themselves as BYU students. :-) -Roberto So we got caught trying to br BYU students. You guys win that battle. Not much of a battle. Y'all were pretty pathetic at forgery. But thanks for the laughs. manoj -- GIVE UP Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
