Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-21 Thread Jonathan Nieder
Hi Dmitrijs,

Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:

 This should be a standard interface via DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, because
 dh_builddeb / dpkg-deb is not the only way to build compliant binary
 packages.

Policy §4.9 explains:

  Both binary-* targets should depend on the build target, or on the
  appropriate build-arch or build-indep target, if provided, so that
  the package is built if it has not been already. It should then
  create the relevant binary package(s), using dpkg-gencontrol to make
  their control files and dpkg-deb to build them [...]

Do any packages violate that?

Jonathan


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-21 Thread Jakub Wilk

* Jonathan Nieder jrnie...@gmail.com, 2012-11-21, 01:48:
This should be a standard interface via DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, because 
dh_builddeb / dpkg-deb is not the only way to build compliant binary 
packages.


Policy §4.9 explains:

Both binary-* targets should depend on the build target, or on the 
appropriate build-arch or build-indep target, if provided, so that the 
package is built if it has not been already. It should then create the 
relevant binary package(s), using dpkg-gencontrol to make their control 
files and dpkg-deb to build them [...]


Do any packages violate that?


pax eats its own dog food: it builds binary packages using pax, avoiding 
dpkg-deb (except for cross-compiling).


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-20 Thread Thorsten Glaser
Dmitrijs Ledkovs xnox at debian.org writes:

 Gzip is ok, but many packages these days use xz -9 --extreme deb

xz is fine but -9 is abuse of the flexibility…
maybe I should export XZ_DEFAULTS=--memlimit=150MiB
in my build chroots… hmm… something to think about…
(for m68k, I might actually use less, setting it to
80MiB would force compression down to -4 which, with
--extreme possibly, is enough, there)

//mirabilos


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-20 Thread Guillem Jover
On Tue, 2012-11-20 at 19:48:25 +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
 Dmitrijs Ledkovs xnox at debian.org writes:
  Gzip is ok, but many packages these days use xz -9 --extreme deb
 
 xz is fine but -9 is abuse of the flexibility…
 maybe I should export XZ_DEFAULTS=--memlimit=150MiB
 in my build chroots… hmm… something to think about…
 (for m68k, I might actually use less, setting it to
 80MiB would force compression down to -4 which, with
 --extreme possibly, is enough, there)

XZ_DEFAULTS will not be honoured because dpkg-deb is not using the
xz command, but the liblzma shared library.

Thanks,
Guillem


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-20 Thread Guillem Jover
On Sat, 2012-11-10 at 13:52:22 +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 07:48:22PM +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
 Okay. I did some tests with various packages. From binary only to text
 only. 

Thanks for the tests Bastian. It would still be nice to see a bigger
sample, if the tests only consisted of these 4 packages, though.

 Package   | gzip -6  | gzip -9  | gzip | xz -1
 --+--+-+-
 libc6 |  4339010 |  4321933 | 0.5% |  2938132
 perl-modules  |  3874170 |  3822719 | 1.5% |  3248392
 gnome-user-guide  |  9217494 |  9172395 | 0.5% |  7589076
 linux-image-3.2.0-4-amd64 | 32928159 | 3258 |  | 25945856
 
 gzip -9 is always much slower then gzip -6. It is at most 2% better.
 xz -1 is usualy faster then gzip -9 and much better. However most
 packages only needs seconds to compress, so the difference will no
 really matter.
 
 So instead of switching to gzip -6, a switch to xz -1 would make more
 sense in term of size and also speed.

 So my proposal would be:
 - Don't do anything for Wheezy.
   Any change may break the CD creation.
 - Switch to xz per default for Jessie.
   xz -3 is often faster in compressing stuff then gzip -9. -6 needs a
   lot of memory, especially for compressing the files, so reducing the
   default to -3 may make sense and does not cost much.

I've already mentioned in some other thread that for dpkg 1.17.x (that
is after wheezy), I'll be switching dpkg-deb to xz as the default
compressor, as that seemed the consensus; but that does not mean that
if the default compression level for gzip is suboptimal (as it seems
it is), that cannot be changed too.

For changing xz default compression level I'd like to see the
implications on a wider dataset, also we should take into account that
compression is only done once, so I don't think that's such an issue,
if the time and memory are not really onerous.

Thanks,
Guillem


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-20 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 20 November 2012 23:21, Guillem Jover guil...@debian.org wrote:
 On Sat, 2012-11-10 at 13:52:22 +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 07:48:22PM +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
 Okay. I did some tests with various packages. From binary only to text
 only.

 Thanks for the tests Bastian. It would still be nice to see a bigger
 sample, if the tests only consisted of these 4 packages, though.

 Package   | gzip -6  | gzip -9  | gzip | xz -1
 --+--+-+-
 libc6 |  4339010 |  4321933 | 0.5% |  2938132
 perl-modules  |  3874170 |  3822719 | 1.5% |  3248392
 gnome-user-guide  |  9217494 |  9172395 | 0.5% |  7589076
 linux-image-3.2.0-4-amd64 | 32928159 | 3258 |  | 25945856

 gzip -9 is always much slower then gzip -6. It is at most 2% better.
 xz -1 is usualy faster then gzip -9 and much better. However most
 packages only needs seconds to compress, so the difference will no
 really matter.

 So instead of switching to gzip -6, a switch to xz -1 would make more
 sense in term of size and also speed.

 So my proposal would be:
 - Don't do anything for Wheezy.
   Any change may break the CD creation.
 - Switch to xz per default for Jessie.
   xz -3 is often faster in compressing stuff then gzip -9. -6 needs a
   lot of memory, especially for compressing the files, so reducing the
   default to -3 may make sense and does not cost much.

 I've already mentioned in some other thread that for dpkg 1.17.x (that
 is after wheezy), I'll be switching dpkg-deb to xz as the default
 compressor, as that seemed the consensus; but that does not mean that
 if the default compression level for gzip is suboptimal (as it seems
 it is), that cannot be changed too.

 For changing xz default compression level I'd like to see the
 implications on a wider dataset, also we should take into account that
 compression is only done once, so I don't think that's such an issue,
 if the time and memory are not really onerous.

While I appreciate the discussions around default compression
algorithms and their setting, I'd rather this thread to stay on-topic.

Does the idea of providing a standard interface to disable compression
make sense? In the approximately similar fashion that noopt and
nostrip are justified?

This should be a standard interface via DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, because
dh_builddeb / dpkg-deb is not the only way to build compliant binary
packages.

Please continue discussing default compression options, but please use
another thread/topic.

Just as I do now, I will continue to want the nocompress option
regardless of current or future default/non-default compression
algorithms and options. I'd like to gather consensus on how (in)sane
this idea is though before submit a patch for debian policy.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-10 Thread Bastian Blank
On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 07:48:22PM +0100, Guillem Jover wrote:
 There used to be a single global default level (9) for all compressors,
 which got changed in 2010 to be backend specific, but only xz and lzma
 were reduced to 6. I don't have any problem with changing gzip (to its
 upstream default!) if as shown it's a vast improvement speed vs space.
 I can certainly do that for dpkg 1.17.x, some more numbers would be
 nice though, as in different types of data.tar, for example, but I
 would not expect any surprises here, mostly just for reassurance.

Okay. I did some tests with various packages. From binary only to text
only. 

Package   | gzip -6  | gzip -9  | gzip | xz -1
--+--+-+-
libc6 |  4339010 |  4321933 | 0.5% |  2938132
perl-modules  |  3874170 |  3822719 | 1.5% |  3248392
gnome-user-guide  |  9217494 |  9172395 | 0.5% |  7589076
linux-image-3.2.0-4-amd64 | 32928159 | 3258 |  | 25945856

gzip -9 is always much slower then gzip -6. It is at most 2% better.
xz -1 is usualy faster then gzip -9 and much better. However most
packages only needs seconds to compress, so the difference will no
really matter.

So instead of switching to gzip -6, a switch to xz -1 would make more
sense in term of size and also speed.

So my proposal would be:
- Don't do anything for Wheezy.
  Any change may break the CD creation.
- Switch to xz per default for Jessie.
  xz -3 is often faster in compressing stuff then gzip -9. -6 needs a
  lot of memory, especially for compressing the files, so reducing the
  default to -3 may make sense and does not cost much.

Bastian

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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Simon McVittie
On 08/11/12 19:31, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
 I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip
 any compression/optimisation at build time.

That seems like mixing two orthogonal things: an uncompressed or
fastest-possible-compression .deb or source package, and speeding up
compilation by not optimizing code.

 Similarly other tools can optionally listen on that variable e.g.
 skipping pkgmangler and dh_scour.

This is mixing in yet more things. dh_scour runs a lossy SVG optimizer
(so, it has observable side-effects). pkgbinarymangler is an
Ubuntu-specific package which does various things, mostly with
observable side-effects, including:

* optimize (some) PNGs (losslessly, I assume?)
* optimize other files with advancecomp? (losslessly?)
* truncate changelogs
* strip translations
* adjust Maintainer

 In particular it would be useful during:
 * change-rebuild-test cycles

... unless your package changes its observable behaviour when not
optimized (yes, this does happen, particularly if some C or C++ code has
undefined behaviour).

 * (local) archive rebuilds (when debs are not published, e.g. testing
 a transition / binNMUs)

... unless one of your packages is miscompiled when (not) optimizing, in
which case you can get false positives or negatives in your rebuild.
(I've seen this happen too.)

If what you want is a DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS option for don't compress
source or binary packages, nocompress seems a fine name for that; or to
minimize side-effects by preserving the structure of the package, it
could be something like quickcompress to keep the packager's choice of
gzip or xz but use the fastest possible presets. (It's possible that
faster presets don't actually give you more performance if the time to
write out the .deb is dominated by I/O, though.)

If what you want is a general shortcut option for cut corners to get me
a binary sooner, I (am|am not) willing to accept functional changes as a
result then it should have a different name, perhaps
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=quick or something (or two different names, if there
are valid uses for both versions).

S


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 9 November 2012 09:37, Simon McVittie s...@debian.org wrote:
 On 08/11/12 19:31, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
 I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip
 any compression/optimisation at build time.


I am sorry if this was misleading. I am aware of the noopt option and
I am aware that disabling compiler optimisations gives you a different
(possibly broken) binaries.


 If what you want is a DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS option for don't compress
 source or binary packages, nocompress seems a fine name for that; or to
 minimize side-effects by preserving the structure of the package, it
 could be something like quickcompress to keep the packager's choice of
 gzip or xz but use the fastest possible presets. (It's possible that
 faster presets don't actually give you more performance if the time to
 write out the .deb is dominated by I/O, though.)


This is what I want. And not currently available.

True about I/O. Does dpkg-deb writes-out tar to disk before
compressing it or is it a pipe?

 If what you want is a general shortcut option for cut corners to get me
 a binary sooner, I (am|am not) willing to accept functional changes as a
 result then it should have a different name, perhaps
 DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=quick or something (or two different names, if there
 are valid uses for both versions).


I don't think this one is needed, as noopt + the above nocompress will
result in this shortcut, more or less.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Bastian Blank
On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 04:33:42PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
 Oh, okay.  It would actually be much easier to standardize a way to switch
 to gzip compression than it would be to add a new concept of uncompressed
 packages.

The problem is: dpkg-deb with gzip is much slower than with bzip2 and xz
does not really add much. So you want none in this case.

| dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in `test.none.deb'.
| dpkg-deb -Znone -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.none.deb  0.12s 
user 1.56s system 108% cpu 1.539 total

| dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in `test.gzip.deb'.
| dpkg-deb -Zgzip -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.gzip.deb  62.96s 
user 1.78s system 101% cpu 1:03.77 total

| dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in `test.bzip2.deb'.
| dpkg-deb -Zbzip2 -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.bzip2.deb  12.48s 
user 1.76s system 108% cpu 13.165 total

| dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in `test.xz.deb'.
| dpkg-deb -Zxz -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.xz.deb  103.27s user 
2.66s system 101% cpu 1:44.35 total

Bastian

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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Bastian Blank
On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 12:26:19PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
 | dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in `test.gzip.deb'.
 | dpkg-deb -Zgzip -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.gzip.deb  62.96s 
 user 1.78s system 101% cpu 1:03.77 total

Some further tests show clearly why this is the case:

| gzip -c data.tar  /dev/null  6.51s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 6.548 total
| gzip -9c data.tar  /dev/null  61.46s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 1:01.54 total

dpkg-deb defaults to -9 for gzip. This mode takes ten times. This all
for an negligible advantage of 1% smaller package.

Bastian

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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 9 November 2012 14:52, Bastian Blank wa...@debian.org wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 12:26:19PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
 | dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in 
 `test.gzip.deb'.
 | dpkg-deb -Zgzip -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.gzip.deb  
 62.96s user 1.78s system 101% cpu 1:03.77 total

 Some further tests show clearly why this is the case:

 | gzip -c data.tar  /dev/null  6.51s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 6.548 total
 | gzip -9c data.tar  /dev/null  61.46s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 1:01.54 
 total

 dpkg-deb defaults to -9 for gzip. This mode takes ten times. This all
 for an negligible advantage of 1% smaller package.


Even without any option it defaults to -6, can you compare -1 as well?

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Guillem Jover
Hi!

On Fri, 2012-11-09 at 15:52:53 +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 12:26:19PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
  | dpkg-deb: building package `linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64' in 
  `test.gzip.deb'.
  | dpkg-deb -Zgzip -b debian/linux-image-3.6-trunk-amd64 test.gzip.deb  
  62.96s user 1.78s system 101% cpu 1:03.77 total
 
 Some further tests show clearly why this is the case:
 
 | gzip -c data.tar  /dev/null  6.51s user 0.04s system 99% cpu 6.548 total
 | gzip -9c data.tar  /dev/null  61.46s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 1:01.54 
 total
 
 dpkg-deb defaults to -9 for gzip. This mode takes ten times. This all
 for an negligible advantage of 1% smaller package.

There used to be a single global default level (9) for all compressors,
which got changed in 2010 to be backend specific, but only xz and lzma
were reduced to 6. I don't have any problem with changing gzip (to its
upstream default!) if as shown it's a vast improvement speed vs space.

I can certainly do that for dpkg 1.17.x, some more numbers would be
nice though, as in different types of data.tar, for example, but I
would not expect any surprises here, mostly just for reassurance.

thanks,
guillem


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-09 Thread Guillem Jover
Hi!

On Fri, 2012-11-09 at 10:16:21 +, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
 On 9 November 2012 09:37, Simon McVittie s...@debian.org wrote:
  (It's possible that faster presets don't actually give you more
  performance if the time to write out the .deb is dominated by I/O,
  though.)
 
 True about I/O. Does dpkg-deb writes-out tar to disk before
 compressing it or is it a pipe?

Oh, it's fairly suboptimal currently. It pipes tar's output to a
process compressing it to then write the result to disk, which gets
read back and written into the final .deb, for both tar member files.
This is pretty bad for big packages. But I already started reworking
the code to fix it, so this will be better in dpkg 1.17.x.

Similar badness happens on unpack, although at least it does not go
through a temp file on disk, also being reworked.

thanks,
guillem


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Russ Allbery
Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:

 I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip any
 compression/optimisation at build time.

 Specifically dpkg-builddeb and dpkg-source should use not use any
 compression methods.

Why do you think this would be of any benefit?  gzip compression is pretty
fast.  It seems unlikely to me that this is a substantial bottleneck.

-- 
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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 8 November 2012 23:39, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote:
 Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:

 I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip any
 compression/optimisation at build time.

 Specifically dpkg-builddeb and dpkg-source should use not use any
 compression methods.

 Why do you think this would be of any benefit?  gzip compression is pretty
 fast.  It seems unlikely to me that this is a substantial bottleneck.

Gzip is ok, but many packages these days use xz -9 --extreme deb
options which is not fast at all on my pandaboard nor on my cloud
instances with capped CPU  memory.
Using such compression is good for release debs, but not in developer
testing. It wastes developer's time.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Russ Allbery
Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:

 Gzip is ok, but many packages these days use xz -9 --extreme deb options
 which is not fast at all on my pandaboard nor on my cloud instances with
 capped CPU  memory.  Using such compression is good for release debs,
 but not in developer testing. It wastes developer's time.

Oh, okay.  It would actually be much easier to standardize a way to switch
to gzip compression than it would be to add a new concept of uncompressed
packages.

-- 
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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 9 November 2012 00:33, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote:
 Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:

 Gzip is ok, but many packages these days use xz -9 --extreme deb options
 which is not fast at all on my pandaboard nor on my cloud instances with
 capped CPU  memory.  Using such compression is good for release debs,
 but not in developer testing. It wastes developer's time.

 Oh, okay.  It would actually be much easier to standardize a way to switch
 to gzip compression than it would be to add a new concept of uncompressed
 packages.


dpkg-source supports gzip, bzip2, lzma, xz (matters for beefy native packages)
dpkg-deb supports none, gzip, bzip2, lzma, xz

The reason why I am after a DEB_BUILD_OPTION is that there are
multiple tools that can optimized for time.
E.g. disable dh_scour that can take also take a while.

And setting multiple environment variables is not nice.

Alternatively we can abuse the noopt option, but I'd rather not
redefine / add extra meaning to the existing options.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Adam Borowski
On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 03:39:55PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
 Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:
 
  I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip any
  compression/optimisation at build time.
 
  Specifically dpkg-builddeb and dpkg-source should use not use any
  compression methods.
 
 Why do you think this would be of any benefit?  gzip compression is pretty
 fast.  It seems unlikely to me that this is a substantial bottleneck.

Why would you ever use gzip if you have a choice?  xz has speed parity with
gzip -9 at somewhere between levels 2 and 3, with greatly better
compression.  Just use xz -0.

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Re: Something like nocompress DEB_BUILD_OPTION

2012-11-08 Thread Dmitrijs Ledkovs
On 9 November 2012 00:54, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 03:39:55PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
 Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org writes:

  I would like to have a nocompress Debian build option that will skip any
  compression/optimisation at build time.

  Specifically dpkg-builddeb and dpkg-source should use not use any
  compression methods.

 Why do you think this would be of any benefit?  gzip compression is pretty
 fast.  It seems unlikely to me that this is a substantial bottleneck.

 Why would you ever use gzip if you have a choice?  xz has speed parity with
 gzip -9 at somewhere between levels 2 and 3, with greatly better
 compression.  Just use xz -0.


Interesting to know. I am after pure speed only, so surely compression
`dpkg-deb -Znone` will be the least amount of CPU time for debs.

Exact flags can be tweaked, as long as we agree on
DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nocompress=1 to begin with.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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