Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Darren/Torin/Who Ever... [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Any debian packages and all architecture dependent packages will have to be recompiled. Since new Perls seem to break binary compatibility, do we need a better dependency mechanism? The best option I can see is for perl_5.005 (or perl_base, or whatever) to Provides: perl5.005. Packages dependent on the particular binary formats of that Perl can then depend on the virtual package. That should then ensure that when perl_5.006 is available, it won't be installed until all other packages are available, or unless forced. (Which could be a problem for trying to compile them... Hmm.) -- Carey Evans http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/c.evans/ So, do you steal weapons from the Army often? Well, we don't get cable, so we have to make our own fun.
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 06:32:22PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava écrivait: I agree. I do not. Perl 5.005 and the new perl-thread seems to interest a lot of people. But if we don't switch to perl5.005 right now, they would presumably download the forthcoming perl5.005 package from the next (after freeze) unstable dist. If they do like that all their lib*-perl package will be broken and dkpg would not complain ! Furthermore if they do this they will have to download all their lib*-perl packages in order to have a consistent perl toolbox. But if all is done for slink, they will switch to the new packages without noticing that something has changed for perl. Do you see what I mean ? C'mon, let's be realistic. Introducing a new perl right now would basically blow a 1998 stable slink out of the picture (as would PAM, of course), IMHO. It's not just a question of re-uploading 35 packages, but also of testing, and tracking down interactions. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but it seems like a big problem to me. It would be much preferable to wait until post-freeze, and then, w.r.t. the libraries, either have perl conflict with the older versions of things, or else provide a big perl5.05 profile package or some such external mechanism to ensure the smoothness of the transition. If it's a big issue, why can't we plan on having a Debian 2.2 release very quickly, i.e., freeze again in January or Feb? Our main goal is an integrated, stable system. We shouldn't give into fetish for the newest versions, at the expense of stability. .A. P. [EMAIL PROTECTED]URL:http://www.onShore.com/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:57:46AM -0400, Adam P. Harris écrivait: C'mon, let's be realistic. Introducing a new perl right now would basically blow a 1998 stable slink out of the picture (as would PAM, of course), IMHO. It's not just a question of re-uploading 35 packages, but also of testing, and tracking down interactions. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but it seems like a big problem to me. Yes, You're too pessimistic :), what problems of testing and interactions do you mean ? As far as I know, recompiled modules work out of the box. Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think. It would be much preferable to wait until post-freeze, and then, w.r.t. the libraries, either have perl conflict with the older versions of things, or else provide a big perl5.05 profile package or some such external mechanism to ensure the smoothness of the transition. Yes, if we do nothing for slink then we will have to make perl5.005 (and all perl package after 5.005) conflict with a list of 35 package with precise version. It seems to me ungraceful... the other solution would be to add a conflict line for actual lib*-perl packages but then they need to be modified and uploaded, so why not just upgrading ? If it's a big issue, why can't we plan on having a Debian 2.2 release very quickly, i.e., freeze again in January or Feb? Our main goal is Why should it be a big issue ? It's just a matter of saying ok from now we will use perl5.005 so lib*-perl package will depend on it and we have to recompile them. It's not like PAM where interactions with other packages are important. an integrated, stable system. We shouldn't give into fetish for the newest versions, at the expense of stability. Perl 5.005 is stable. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
On Mon, 5 October 1998 13:24:56 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Yes, if we do nothing for slink then we will have to make perl5.005 (and all perl package after 5.005) conflict with a list of 35 package with precise version. Yep. Seems more of a hassle to me. Perl 5.005 is stable. If we use basic Perl 5 I don't see any reason it should not work and I'd really like to know what known problems there probably are. We're not talking about threaded perl here, that may become an additional package. Alexander -- When we're born, we cry that we are come / To this great stage of fools. (Shakespeare, King Lear) Alexander Koch - - aka Efraim - PGP - 0xE7694969 - Hannover - Germany
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
[snip] Now. Who comes up with a Perl 5.005_02 for experimental? I'd like to run it against the walls to see if it does anything not-so-nice or something. Alexander -- Heute nacht war mir fuenf Minuten langweilig... -- Gabriel Krabbe Alexander Koch - - aka Efraim - PGP - 0xE7694969 - Hannover - Germany
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:41:47PM +0200, Alexander Koch écrivait: Now. Who comes up with a Perl 5.005_02 for experimental? I'd like to run it against the walls to see if it does anything not-so-nice or something. [I don't answer, I try to summarize] AFAIK, Darren Stalder (the perl maintainer) will release RSN two packages. Perl in the unstable dist and perl-thread in the experimental directory. We will be able to install both since there will be two differents binaries (/usr/bin/perl and /usr/bin/perl-thread). After that we will have to recompile lib*-perl package. I can fill bugreport against those package. Maintainers who will not be able to recompile their packages should tell it here and ask if somebody can do it. Is this really too difficult ? I know that the freeze time approaches but in fact we are still in unstable. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Hi, Raphael == Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Raphael Le Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 07:21:06PM +0200, Richard Braakman écrivait: Let's wait till *after* the freeze and do that in the new unstable. I agree. Frankly, I think it's a bad idea to just break all those packages. Isn't there some way to create a smooth upgrade path? Raphael No. But it might no be a great problem, I tried to see how Raphael many packages would be broken : Raphael That makes 35 packages. Really not unreachable. I can fill Raphael the bugreports if needed. Please, no. The freeze is now less than two weeks away (if I remember correctly). Surely we can wait until after the freeze? Otherwise we start into the freeze with 35 broken packages. Our track record is bad enough that we should not tempt the fates before the freeze anyway. We are trying to get into a more frequent release cycle, which means changes like this should happen early in the release, not at the tail end. In fact, maybe we should consider a soft freeze in effect two weeks before the real freeze -- right around now. manoj who would really like to have a release before christmas this time; preferably by november, to catch the holiday season. -- Murray's Rule: Any country with democratic in the title isn't. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Hi, Raphael == Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Raphael Why not propose perl and perl-thread ? Each one would Raphael conflict with the other one, but that's not a problem. That *is* a problem. I would like to have both on my machine: the normal perl for production, and the threaded one to prototype with. manoj -- Fraternities have no SLACK, no matter how slack-jawed they may appear. I taught elementary calculus here at the University of SLACK for several years, and have observed these folks carefully. Although some of them looked like they had SLACK, it's clear to me that this was just the result of not getting enough sleep after the puking contest. I mean, those guys don't watch enough television to have real SLACK. William K Glunt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Manoj Srivastava wrote: That *is* a problem. I would like to have both on my machine: the normal perl for production, and the threaded one to prototype with. According to the mail I got from the maintainer, that is what he plans to do. /usr/bin/perl and /usr/bin/perl-thread, no conflicts. -- see shy jo
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 09:14:00PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava écrivait: That *is* a problem. I would like to have both on my machine: the normal perl for production, and the threaded one to prototype with. OK, I was wrong. I said it in the eventuality where perl and perl-thread would have the same binary-name (aka /usr/bin/perl) but in fact perl and perl-thread doesn't conflict each other. Furthermore it could have been handled by alternatives. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 06:32:22PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava écrivait: I agree. I do not. Perl 5.005 and the new perl-thread seems to interest a lot of people. But if we don't switch to perl5.005 right now, they would presumably download the forthcoming perl5.005 package from the next (after freeze) unstable dist. If they do like that all their lib*-perl package will be broken and dkpg would not complain ! Furthermore if they do this they will have to download all their lib*-perl packages in order to have a consistent perl toolbox. But if all is done for slink, they will switch to the new packages without noticing that something has changed for perl. Do you see what I mean ? Please, no. The freeze is now less than two weeks away (if I remember correctly). Surely we can wait until after the freeze? Otherwise we start into the freeze with 35 broken packages. Really the only job to repair theses packages is : # dpkg -i perl_5.005_02-1.deb $ cd libmsgcat-perl-1.0 $ vim debian/control (add the depends line perl (= 5.005)) $ dch -v Recompiled for perl 5.005 $ build $ dupload And if a developer can't do that in the next 2 weeks, he can say it here and somedbody can do a NMU. We are trying to get into a more frequent release cycle, which means changes like this should happen early in the release, not at the tail end. I agree but in this precise case I don't think so. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Raphael Hertzog, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote: What will be done for slink ? I don't know but I'd like to have perl5.005 because it's better (ie. thread support is really useful). But then all lib*-perl maintainer will have to upload updated packages. Is this possible ? Considering that stable.tar.gz on CPAN is now pointing to Perl 5.005.02 and I'm having no problems with it, I'll be releasing it this weekend. Sorry I've been a bit slow, I'm working on buying a house. After I get the basic Perl package out (for testing and module recompilation), I plan on releasing another that has most of the bugs fixed. I also plan on making experimental packages of threaded Perl and the latest development Perl later in the week. BTW, Joey, some of my projects could *really* use threaded Perl as well. But it's considered experimental in 5.005 and just isn't up to snuff in a production environment. Darren - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.daft.com/~torin [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Darren Stalder/2608 Second Ave, @282/Seattle, WA 98121-1212/USA/+1-800-921-4996 @ Sysadmin, webweaver, postmaster for hire. C/Perl/CGI/Pilot programmer/tutor @ @Make a little hot-tub in your soul. @ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNhVfn7QuaHP6LBjxAQEv3QP/U4PgbU1e07JAgeMtnKbe6vQb77AHhBCp 3Bz2BAcY1t740wa2XLrrRJNgBybkfElQMGMWKaWanKiLAjdrIQAak981ZdlxRmwB vjkRwa8xHrx3/N09nSu0gM+4hN3ZwaBdu5vYJ5VtzzyosukR+4V+miIFr/E+FQLJ 28PF9alKvOA= =YyPw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Darren Stalder wrote: BTW, Joey, some of my projects could *really* use threaded Perl as well. But it's considered experimental in 5.005 and just isn't up to snuff in a production environment. Do you have any plans to offer it as something like /usr/bin/perl-t? (or would modules need to be rebuilt too?) -- see shy jo
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Joey Hess, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote: Do you have any plans to offer it as something like /usr/bin/perl-t? (or would modules need to be rebuilt too?) It will be available as /usr/bin/perl5.00502-thread. I could manage the /usr/bin/perl-t as alternatives. No suidperl will be offered for this. Any debian packages and all architecture dependent packages will have to be recompiled. The 5.00502-thread will install itself under /usr/lib/perl5.00502-thread so as to not conflict with the real Perl installation. Darren - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.daft.com/~torin [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Darren Stalder/2608 Second Ave, @282/Seattle, WA 98121-1212/USA/+1-800-921-4996 @ Sysadmin, webweaver, postmaster for hire. C/Perl/CGI/Pilot programmer/tutor @ @Make a little hot-tub in your soul. @ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNhWMlo4wrq++1Ls5AQFiCQP/RNjSPJKIAiIl2vl9F5jzCGO7Hok/GFfA PVoM6uQ9yPx+vNEj6I6SvRf5mKEsVk3chzEBibd2uJmUgsPsbruO15bD7647nI/2 XOnFTrEfpWEd/b40rVW20Fxt3TWeXFdsLpHQro7/SJWxjJYfUOBWjO6EXM4p24sq 2hSwe/KZlGA= =CRIl -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Darren/Torin/Who Ever... wrote: It will be available as /usr/bin/perl5.00502-thread. I could manage the /usr/bin/perl-t as alternatives. Well /usr/bin/perl-thread is probably a better name. Any debian packages and all architecture dependent packages will have to be recompiled. Do you mean that to use data-dumper with perl5.00502-thread, you'd have to recompile it? Or would the same data-dumper package work with both perl5.00502 and perl5.00502-thread? -- see shy jo
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Darren/Torin/Who Ever... wrote: Joey Hess, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote: Do you have any plans to offer it as something like /usr/bin/perl-t? (or would modules need to be rebuilt too?) It will be available as /usr/bin/perl5.00502-thread. I could manage the /usr/bin/perl-t as alternatives. No suidperl will be offered for this. Any debian packages and all architecture dependent packages will have to be recompiled. The 5.00502-thread will install itself under I guess after the new version of perl is installed in slink somebody should file bugreports against all architecture-dependent perl packages, i.e. CPAN modules with a severity of at least important so they will be either recompiled or removed with slink. Btw. do we have a name for the next release yet? Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Martin Schulze wrote: Darren/Torin/Who Ever... wrote: Joey Hess, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote: Do you have any plans to offer it as something like /usr/bin/perl-t? (or would modules need to be rebuilt too?) It will be available as /usr/bin/perl5.00502-thread. I could manage the /usr/bin/perl-t as alternatives. No suidperl will be offered for this. Any debian packages and all architecture dependent packages will have to be recompiled. The 5.00502-thread will install itself under I guess after the new version of perl is installed in slink somebody should file bugreports against all architecture-dependent perl packages, i.e. CPAN modules with a severity of at least important so they will be either recompiled or removed with slink. Let's wait till *after* the freeze and do that in the new unstable. Frankly, I think it's a bad idea to just break all those packages. Isn't there some way to create a smooth upgrade path? Richard Braakman
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Sat, Oct 03, 1998 at 07:21:06PM +0200, Richard Braakman écrivait: Let's wait till *after* the freeze and do that in the new unstable. Frankly, I think it's a bad idea to just break all those packages. Isn't there some way to create a smooth upgrade path? No. But it might no be a great problem, I tried to see how many packages would be broken : $ zcat Contents-i386.gz | grep 'usr/lib/perl.*\.so' | perl -npe '$_ = ((/^(\S)+\s+(\S+)\s*$/)[1].\n)' | sort | uniq base/data-dumper base/perl-base contrib/interpreters/libdbd-msql-perl contrib/interpreters/libdbd-mysql-perl contrib/interpreters/msqlperl contrib/math/pgperl devel/eperl devel/pilot-link-perl graphics/freewrl interpreters/alias interpreters/libdatecalc-perl interpreters/libdbd-pg-perl interpreters/libdbi-perl interpreters/libfile-sync-perl interpreters/libgtk-perl,interpreters/libgnome-perl,interpreters/libgtk-imlib-perl interpreters/liblockdev0-perl interpreters/libmd5-perl interpreters/libmsgcat-perl interpreters/perl interpreters/perl-tk interpreters/perlmagick libs/libcompress-zlib-perl libs/libcurses-perl libs/libmime-base64-perl libs/libpgperl libs/libterm-readkey-perl libs/libtime-hires-perl math/netcdf-perl math/pdl math/r-pdl non-free/graphics/libgd-perl web/libapache-mod-perl web/libhtml-embperl-perl That makes 35 packages. Really not unreachable. I can fill the bugreports if needed. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
Re: Switch to perl-5.005_02 ?
Le Thu, Oct 01, 1998 at 10:08:01PM -0400, Roderick Schertler écrivait: One wouldn't want to switch /usr/bin/perl to have threading enabled at this point, as there is still a significant speed penalty (somewhere in the neighborhood of 30%, even if you haven't spawned any auxiliary threads). I think it would be reasonable to switch to a non-threaded 5.005_02, though. Why not propose perl and perl-thread ? Each one would conflict with the other one, but that's not a problem. The problem is : Can the maintainer package perl5.005 ?. I would like to help but I'm a still a new Debian developer and really not a C hacker... after perl5.005 has been packaged, there should be no problem. lib*-perl packages need no modifications, just a recompilation. Cheers, -- Hertzog Raphaël ¤ 0C4CABF1 ¤ http://www.mygale.org/~hra/
