Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Oleg Verych]

* From: David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:15:08 -0400
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:00:17PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
>> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:53:30PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
>> > The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
>> > it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
>> 
>> Where did you hear this?
>
> Word of mouth, usually in conjunction with promises that the site would be
> updated to not look like it came from the 90's and no visible improvements
> in that area. I'd heard about meetings at debconf/debcamps to work on this,
> and yet the site still looks almost identical to the way it did when I
> first downloaded Debian back in 1999.

Sure it is, and will be for me.

[]
>> What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
>> a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?
>
> I don't consider my job in Debian to maintain the website. I consider my
> job to help maintain X. I've taken it upon myself to work on the XSF wiki
> pages because it's useful and important, but it's clearly a secondary
> concern to actually working on the software. Given this, anything that
> makes the job easier and more trivial so I can focus on what I consider to
> be important is a very valid reason.

As lynx user to mutt user, i want to say: "Thank you very much!" ;)

> I think that any tool that lets us do this should be considered. Debian
> isn't in the website creating business, we're in the Free Software
> Distribution creating business. If a tool, like a wiki, makes it
> substantially easier for us to go about that business then yes, I think we
> should use it.

I second this.



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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> 
> > So consider this a +1 for me to get write access to all DD by default in
> > our website.
> 
> for the content I'm pretty sure that's a good idea. Giving all DDs
> access to the css could result in a new design every week. Although that
> sounds like an interesting thing to watch ;)

That's simply not true. When everybody had access to the debian-cd
repository, they didn't change randomly stuff to suit their taste.
When they knew the changes to have a bigger impact, they consulted others
first.

It's exactly the same with the CSS and the design of the website. I know
several committers wo have an alternative (though similar) design/CSS for
the site, yet they didn't commit it because no consensus emerged from
-www.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Bernd Zeimetz]

> So consider this a +1 for me to get write access to all DD by default in
> our website.

for the content I'm pretty sure that's a good idea. Giving all DDs
access to the css could result in a new design every week. Although that
sounds like an interesting thing to watch ;)

-- 
Bernd Zeimetz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 03:15:31AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > If I already have access and I get an itch, I will scratch it.  If I
> > > don't, I will either forget about it or complain.  I am unlikely to go
> > > through whatever bureaucracy is set up to request access.  Whether or
> > > not this is a loss for debian-www is not something I feel comfortable
> > > asserting.
> 
> > This sounds a bit extreme. Would you at least be patient enough to file
> > a bug report or send an e-mail about the issue?
> 
> If the issue in question is a typo?

Well, yes, even then... I've seen people file bug reports on typos in
package documentation. Maybe it's a relatively large effort for such
a small gain, but it's not a really big issue.

> certainly, most of my complaints about the website are in the area of
> site organization, not minor content bugs.

Please feel free to voice them on the debian-www list or though the BTS
(the www.debian.org pseudo-package), and hopefully they can get fixed.

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Re: cvs commit access to webwml files (Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams)

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 09:29:01AM +0200, Bart Martens wrote:
> But I did the effort of finding the procedure and asking for cvs commit
> access to the webwml files.  To my surprise I got the access granted
> within 24 hours.

Truth be told, you were reasonably lucky to get Matt's ACK and Joey's
adduser so quickly, but still, something reasonably similar to that
has happened every time for all those other people who asked.

> And also to my surprise, editing the webwml files and
> committing the changes is much easier than I expected.

So much for that scarecrow, eh? :)

It is reasonably easy, as it should be... it could be easier, yes,
but it's not a showstopper.

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:15:08PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> > > The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
> > > it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
> > 
> > Where did you hear this?
> 
> Word of mouth, usually in conjunction with promises that the site would be
> updated to not look like it came from the 90's and no visible improvements
> in that area. I'd heard about meetings at debconf/debcamps to work on this,
> and yet the site still looks almost identical to the way it did when I
> first downloaded Debian back in 1999. People said it was a big task, and if
> it was true then that would explain the lack of visible progress despite
> all the discussions.

Those kinds of things should be documented so that they can be discussed and
decided upon, otherwise it's just, well, chatter.

> > How does all that documentation we have had for years at
> > http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ in any way say or imply that
> > "helping out with the website is a herculean task that no mere mortal
> > should attempt"? How do all those relatively clueless translators who
> > simply know two languages manage to get things done? Are they all immortals?
> 
> Translation is fundamentally different than restructuring the website and
> bringing it up to modern standards. From what I understood, one of the
> reasons why it was so hard to restructure the site was because it was
> carefully set up for easy translation, making it tied to specific tools. I
> didn't care enough to investigate further.

The translators have to learn various intricate editing methods so that they
can update stuff: version control, WML syntax, various files with different
meanings and structures, template files, separate strings in po files, etc.
Occasionally they actually have to edit the right bits in pieces of Perl
code :) So I can't help but think that the knowledge they have to acquire is
not fundamentally different to the knowledge required for someone to take
the English parts of the web site and shuffle them around.

Again, it would help if people wishing to change the English version would
articulate their thoughts clearly. (As opposed to saying "all this you
have there should be deprecated".)

> > > I trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> > > making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> > > the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki.
> > 
> > It's not trivially easy to do, therefore it sucks?
> > 
> > What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
> > a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?
> 
> I don't consider my job in Debian to maintain the website. I consider my
> job to help maintain X. I've taken it upon myself to work on the XSF wiki
> pages because it's useful and important, but it's clearly a secondary
> concern to actually working on the software. Given this, anything that
> makes the job easier and more trivial so I can focus on what I consider to
> be important is a very valid reason.
> 
> I think that any tool that lets us do this should be considered. Debian
> isn't in the website creating business, we're in the Free Software
> Distribution creating business. If a tool, like a wiki, makes it
> substantially easier for us to go about that business then yes, I think we
> should use it.

The problem there is we can't just jump to the conclusion that that
particular tool is the right one for the job.

> > Can you please realize that this kind of unsubstantiated blather actually
> > hurts the feelings of the people who are making a good-faith effort to
> > keep the web site working?
> 
> I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, nor am I trying to criticize
> anyone. I had heard that overhauling the website (not just keeping it
> working) was a big task, and that shouldn't be interpreted as heaping
> scorn on you or anyone else.

Well, maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the idea that all this current
work should just be deprecated in favour of some new thing doesn't seem very
kind.

Maybe it should, but all those man-hours that the hundreds of webwml
committers[1] have spent working on the problem should be acknowledged,
and all the good stuff must be carried over to the new solution,
regardless of the bad stuff which gets thrown out.

[1] currently there's 124 of us, over the years there were probably even more

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Steve Langasek]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 11:44:13AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:45:17PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > > Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> > > a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> > > opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> > > necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> > > you've read some docs and you want access.

> > I don't have a good reason, but for me it's the difference between
> > contributing or not.  If I already have access and I get an itch, I will
> > scratch it.  If I don't, I will either forget about it or complain.  I
> > am unlikely to go through whatever bureaucracy is set up to request
> > access.  Whether or not this is a loss for debian-www is not something I
> > feel comfortable asserting.

> This sounds a bit extreme. Would you at least be patient enough to file
> a bug report or send an e-mail about the issue?

If the issue in question is a typo?

When the effort involved in gaining access to the repo, or in informing
someone with access about the bug, is greater than the effort it takes to
actually fix the problem, I agree that tends to be a deterrent for me.
(This is true in general, not just in the case of the website.)  I don't
know if that's sufficient reason to change the perms on the repo; certainly,
most of my complaints about the website are in the area of site
organization, not minor content bugs.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 09:06:06AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Because most people don't bother when they want to fix only a small
> detail in a web page.

Well, when I want to fix a small detail in some other part of Debian,

I usually send a mail or file a bug, I don't automatically think that
I should get to do the change instantly. Yes, the web pages are "just"
documentation, but I honestly don't see a problem in having a maintenance
layer. I consider myself able to quickly edit most of the manual pages in
Debian packages (or whatever else is so simple in all packages), but
I don't think about doing NMUs, I let the other thousand people do MUs :)

That's as far as the philosophical aspect goes...

> Furthermore, the procedure to get www-acces is not
> that clear... when I joined the group, I had to seriously dig in the
> documentation to finally find a web page which wasn't even hosted on a
> debian.org website at that time (Joey's page that apparently moved to
> people.d.o in the mean time and that you have now listed in
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Webmaster).

That's something they invented while I was on hiatus, I just noticed it
a few days ago... I agree it's another bit of overhead, but it's just a bit.

> I would also like the project to move away from CVS and
> use something more friendly that can effectively enable bigger changes
> (because it handles renames at least).

That would actually help work around the philosophical problems. If we had a
system which allowed finer-grained definitions of who gets to do what kind
of a commit (e.g. I don't want to let 1000 people have access to /index.wml
and you would probably understand why not), and one that helped translators
not lose track when there's a conflict in the source (ability to easily mark
revisions as not necessary to translate), that would make it easier to
implement a loosening in permissions.

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:45:17PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> > a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> > opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> > necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> > you've read some docs and you want access.
> 
> I don't have a good reason, but for me it's the difference between
> contributing or not.  If I already have access and I get an itch, I will
> scratch it.  If I don't, I will either forget about it or complain.  I
> am unlikely to go through whatever bureaucracy is set up to request
> access.  Whether or not this is a loss for debian-www is not something I
> feel comfortable asserting.

This sounds a bit extreme. Would you at least be patient enough to file
a bug report or send an e-mail about the issue?

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cvs commit access to webwml files (Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams)

[Bart Martens]

On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 09:06 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2007, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> > a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> > opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> > necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> > you've read some docs and you want access.
> 
> Because most people don't bother when they want to fix only a small
> detail in a web page. 

I agree with that.

> Furthermore, the procedure to get www-acces is not
> that clear... when I joined the group, I had to seriously dig in the
> documentation to finally find a web page which wasn't even hosted on a
> debian.org website 

I agree with that too.

But I did the effort of finding the procedure and asking for cvs commit
access to the webwml files.  To my surprise I got the access granted
within 24 hours.  And also to my surprise, editing the webwml files and
committing the changes is much easier than I expected.

> at that time (Joey's page that apparently moved to
> people.d.o in the mean time and that you have now listed in
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Webmaster).

Well, feel free to give the procedure a more visible place in the
webwml-managed pages.

> 
> Anyway, debian-cd when it was hosted in CVS used to have write access to
> all Debian developers and it worked perfectly fine. The collab-maint
> SVN repository is also writable by all DD and I haven't heard a single
> complaint up to now.
> 
> So consider this a +1 for me to get write access to all DD by default in
> our website. 

I agree with giving cvs commit access to the webwml files to all DD's,
or, to encourage all DD's to request that access.

Regards,

Bart Martens


> I would also like the project to move away from CVS and
> use something more friendly that can effectively enable bigger changes
> (because it handles renames at least).
> 
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Raphaël Hertzog
> 
> Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
> http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/
> 
> 


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Wed, 30 May 2007, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> you've read some docs and you want access.

Because most people don't bother when they want to fix only a small
detail in a web page. Furthermore, the procedure to get www-acces is not
that clear... when I joined the group, I had to seriously dig in the
documentation to finally find a web page which wasn't even hosted on a
debian.org website at that time (Joey's page that apparently moved to
people.d.o in the mean time and that you have now listed in
http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Webmaster).

Anyway, debian-cd when it was hosted in CVS used to have write access to
all Debian developers and it worked perfectly fine. The collab-maint
SVN repository is also writable by all DD and I haven't heard a single
complaint up to now.

So consider this a +1 for me to get write access to all DD by default in
our website. I would also like the project to move away from CVS and
use something more friendly that can effectively enable bigger changes
(because it handles renames at least).

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[David Nusinow]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:00:17PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:53:30PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> > The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
> > it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
> 
> Where did you hear this?

Word of mouth, usually in conjunction with promises that the site would be
updated to not look like it came from the 90's and no visible improvements
in that area. I'd heard about meetings at debconf/debcamps to work on this,
and yet the site still looks almost identical to the way it did when I
first downloaded Debian back in 1999. People said it was a big task, and if
it was true then that would explain the lack of visible progress despite
all the discussions.

> How does all that documentation we have had for years at
> http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ in any way say or imply that
> "helping out with the website is a herculean task that no mere mortal
> should attempt"? How do all those relatively clueless translators who
> simply know two languages manage to get things done? Are they all immortals?

Translation is fundamentally different than restructuring the website and
bringing it up to modern standards. From what I understood, one of the
reasons why it was so hard to restructure the site was because it was
carefully set up for easy translation, making it tied to specific tools. I
didn't care enough to investigate further.

> > I trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> > making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> > the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki.
> 
> It's not trivially easy to do, therefore it sucks?
> 
> What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
> a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?

I don't consider my job in Debian to maintain the website. I consider my
job to help maintain X. I've taken it upon myself to work on the XSF wiki
pages because it's useful and important, but it's clearly a secondary
concern to actually working on the software. Given this, anything that
makes the job easier and more trivial so I can focus on what I consider to
be important is a very valid reason.

I think that any tool that lets us do this should be considered. Debian
isn't in the website creating business, we're in the Free Software
Distribution creating business. If a tool, like a wiki, makes it
substantially easier for us to go about that business then yes, I think we
should use it.

> Can you please realize that this kind of unsubstantiated blather actually
> hurts the feelings of the people who are making a good-faith effort to
> keep the web site working?

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, nor am I trying to criticize
anyone. I had heard that overhauling the website (not just keeping it
working) was a big task, and that shouldn't be interpreted as heaping
scorn on you or anyone else.

 - David Nusinow


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 01:02:12AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
> a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
> opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
> necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
> you've read some docs and you want access.

I don't have a good reason, but for me it's the difference between
contributing or not.  If I already have access and I get an itch, I will
scratch it.  If I don't, I will either forget about it or complain.  I
am unlikely to go through whatever bureaucracy is set up to request
access.  Whether or not this is a loss for debian-www is not something I
feel comfortable asserting.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 06:37:45PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
> > compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
> > know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
> > is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
> > in such a setting.
> 
> I'm not sure I buy that argument.  How would you rank debian-kernel
> work, which seems to be not infrequently rife with ego problems and
> revert wars?

In terms of difficulty, it's clearly much like glibc.

Now that you mention that, that's even more disconcerting, and probably
makes for an even lousier prospect for the web pages.

Anyway, before we get lost in all this prediction stuff, I'm yet to hear
a good reason why we need complete triviality in the access method, as
opposed to the kind of triviality we have had for years now: all that is
necessary to get webwml access is to send a mail to debian-www saying
you've read some docs and you want access.

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:30:23PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
> compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
> know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
> is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
> in such a setting.

I'm not sure I buy that argument.  How would you rank debian-kernel
work, which seems to be not infrequently rife with ego problems and
revert wars?


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frans Pop]

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 20:01, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
>   What was unfair wasn't to say debian-www has issues, it was to put it
> on the same level than DSA, and for that I appology to the member of
> the www team

Thx.


pgpdel5FCQMRF.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 02:10:09PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> > How were things working in the debian-glibc CVS? Did accidents or hot
> > discussions hapen because of the very opened commit access?
> 
> No more so than happens today with the more closed SVN repo.

But it's not necessarily an indicative result, because the population of
wannabe committers is different, and the problem of translators doesn't
exist.

It's not unfair to say that web editing is by and large much a easier thing
compared to coding the C library. Consequently, the number of people who
know how to do it, as well as the people who *think* they know how to do it,
is much larger. There's a much larger probability of problematic situations
in such a setting.

The ability to easily revert (which I don't particularly fancy in CVS, TBH)
doesn't help with the other problem, the translations. The translators will
get mightily pissed off if a revert war increases the revision number by
5 or 10, and immediately makes their perfectly fine translation out of date
and gets it removed.

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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:54:34PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > > not 1997, sorry).
> > > 
> > > Why don't you join the team?
> > 
> >   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> > ???You think that sucks, so why don't you step up  attitude. It is a
> > very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> > miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> > the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> > auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.
> > 
> >   So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
> > mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
> > job.
> 
> Well, it would at least be fair from you to NOT include the web team
> in context of teams that are so incorrigible to be worthy of derision!
> 
> The web team, to my knowledge, has very rarely rejected offers for help.
> Please don't assume that all teams are alike :(

  I never said the problems of all those teams were alike. But I don't
think the www team works properly either. I suspect the problem is more
that nobody want's to fight all the DD corpus about a design issue, and
then implement it, because some will find it's too this, others to that,
and the rest will just troll.

  What was unfair wasn't to say debian-www has issues, it was to put it
on the same level than DSA, and for that I appology to the member of the
www team (or group as as it was correctly pointed out, it's rather a
collection of people in the unix group rather than an organized team,
which is also IMHO an explanation of why it does not move a lot, as
there isn't anyone really in charge of the big whole beast).


> (This is the thanks I get for hooking you up at LinkedIn :P :)
  (heh :))

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:53:30PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
> it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.

Where did you hear this?

How does all that documentation we have had for years at
http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ in any way say or imply that
"helping out with the website is a herculean task that no mere mortal
should attempt"? How do all those relatively clueless translators who
simply know two languages manage to get things done? Are they all immortals?

> I trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki.

It's not trivially easy to do, therefore it sucks?

What's next in this fine line of reasoning, I wonder? It doesn't have
a MS Windows GUI that my granny thinks is trivial, therefore it sucks?

Can you please realize that this kind of unsubstantiated blather actually
hurts the feelings of the people who are making a good-faith effort to
keep the web site working?

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Josip Rodin]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > not 1997, sorry).
> > 
> > Why don't you join the team?
> 
>   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> ???You think that sucks, so why don't you step up  attitude. It is a
> very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.
> 
>   So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
> mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
> job.

Well, it would at least be fair from you to NOT include the web team
in context of teams that are so incorrigible to be worthy of derision!

The web team, to my knowledge, has very rarely rejected offers for help.
Please don't assume that all teams are alike :(

(This is the thanks I get for hooking you up at LinkedIn :P :)

-- 
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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frank Küster]

"Francesco P. Lovergine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:56:12AM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, you simply submit a bug report with a patch, and wait for a couple
>> of year for it to be applied.
>> 
>> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?which=pkg&data=www.debian.org&archive=no&version=&dist=unstable&include=patch
>> 
>
> That's simply due to missing regular contributors. 

I know, and I don't blame anyone for that.  But Frans should have known
better when he wrote "but contributing to specific pages or parts is
trivial".  

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Francesco P. Lovergine]

On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:56:12AM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
> 
> Yes, you simply submit a bug report with a patch, and wait for a couple
> of year for it to be applied.
> 
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?which=pkg&data=www.debian.org&archive=no&version=&dist=unstable&include=patch
> 

That's simply due to missing regular contributors. Also a few people are
still reported as 'main contributor' even if their contribution level
reached ground zero years ago. 

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frank Küster]

Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sunday 27 May 2007 01:53, David Nusinow wrote:
>> The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is
>> that it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
>
> Yes, a complete redesign of the website is a herculean task, but 
> contributing to specific pages or parts is trivial. 

Yes, you simply submit a bug report with a patch, and wait for a couple
of year for it to be applied.

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?which=pkg&data=www.debian.org&archive=no&version=&dist=unstable&include=patch

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Mark Brown]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 04:00:10PM +0200, Bart Martens wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 13:31 +0100, Mark Brown wrote:

> > What you're saying here appears to be that you find Frans' response
> > unhelpful and unconstructive.  

> I didn't read it that way.  I think that Pierre meant to say that
> sometimes it should be OK to give criticism on inefficient procedures
> while not volunteering any work related to those inefficient procedures.

Well, quite; that's the why - one might paraphrase Pierre as saying that
he does not find it helpful to respond to problems by telling the person
reporting the problem to fix it.  That's a reasonable view but
complaining about an unhelpful response to a confrontational report does
seem less resonable.

-- 
"You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever."


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 08:13:37AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:
> How were things working in the debian-glibc CVS? Did accidents or hot
> discussions hapen because of the very opened commit access?

No more so than happens today with the more closed SVN repo.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Bart Martens]

On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 13:31 +0100, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:20:53PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> > > On Saturday 26 May 2007 23:07, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> 
> > > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > > not 1997, sorry).
> 
> > > Why don't you join the team?
> 
> >   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> > “You think that sucks, so why don't you step up ?” attitude. It is a
> > very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> > miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> > the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> > auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.
> 
> What you're saying here appears to be that you find Frans' response
> unhelpful and unconstructive.  

I didn't read it that way.  I think that Pierre meant to say that
sometimes it should be OK to give criticism on inefficient procedures
while not volunteering any work related to those inefficient procedures.
Well, that's how I want to read what Pierre wrote. :)



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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Mark Brown]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:58:54PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:20:53PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> > On Saturday 26 May 2007 23:07, Pierre Habouzit wrote:

> > > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > > not 1997, sorry).

> > Why don't you join the team?

>   Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
> “You think that sucks, so why don't you step up ?” attitude. It is a
> very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
> miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
> the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
> auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.

What you're saying here appears to be that you find Frans' response
unhelpful and unconstructive.  Given that you phrased your original
comments about the web site as an ad hominem attack on the people
maintaining it this does seem like an odd complaint.  Discussing
problems is one thing (and often a good thing) but there are much better
ways to do it.

-- 
"You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever."


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 02:13:47AM +0200, Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sunday 27 May 2007 01:53, David Nusinow wrote:
> > The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is
> > that it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.
> 
> Yes, a complete redesign of the website is a herculean task, but 
> contributing to specific pages or parts is trivial. OTOH, I expect that 
> for a webdesign professional even a redesign would be quite manageable as 
> AFAICT the technical structure of the website is not all that 
> complicated.

Actually, it would be, because all those people contributing to small
parts of the site and not taking care of the whole are responsible of
the bad shape of the HTML code that lies in their contributions.

The last great example I saw was the DPL platforms. None of them was
formatted the same way...

*This* makes it almost impossible to do a global redesign.

BTW, you said nobody took care of the whole, did Martin Quinson leave
the team ?

Mike


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Christian Perrier]

> So make the www repo writable by group Debian just like debian-glibc CVS
> used to be.


That sounds to be a fair suggestion.  I suppose that changes are
posted somewhere (debian-www?) so "accidents" should be easy to
avoid/revert.

What would be the risks? A commit/revert war like the one we recently
had on the wiki?

How were things working in the debian-glibc CVS? Did accidents or hot
discussions hapen because of the very opened commit access?




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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

> The wiki is completely centered on English and therefore fails to serve a 
> significant portion of our users. Sure, parts of the wiki are translated, 
> but maintenance of that is an orders of magnitude worse problem than it 
> is for the website.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned the wiki is not a valid alternative for the 
> website until the translation issue has been addressed.

So make the www repo writable by group Debian just like debian-glibc CVS
used to be.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frans Pop]

On Sunday 27 May 2007 01:53, David Nusinow wrote:
> The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is
> that it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.

Yes, a complete redesign of the website is a herculean task, but 
contributing to specific pages or parts is trivial. OTOH, I expect that 
for a webdesign professional even a redesign would be quite manageable as 
AFAICT the technical structure of the website is not all that 
complicated.

My major issue with people complaining about the website is that keeping 
the _existing content_ of the website up to date is relatively little 
work. It just requires people caring about general pages and areas they 
are involved with and proposing updates on the debian-www list.
In most cases someone with commit access will commit concrete proposals 
quite quickly. The problem is with reports that go "this is broken/should 
be improved, but I can't be bothered to propose a replacement".

An example is the port pages. Keeping those relatively up-to-date is very 
little work if only porters took the trouble to actually look at the 
pages for their port every once in a while. However, even after sending 
pings to the port lists there generally is hardly any reaction at all.
OTOH, most ports are probably just as little "team"-maintained as the 
website...

> That's exactly why I've abandoned the web site for the wiki anyway. I
> trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
> making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned,
> the web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki. I'm pretty sure
> Joey Hess has blogged about something similar.

The wiki is completely centered on English and therefore fails to serve a 
significant portion of our users. Sure, parts of the wiki are translated, 
but maintenance of that is an orders of magnitude worse problem than it 
is for the website.

As far as I'm concerned the wiki is not a valid alternative for the 
website until the translation issue has been addressed.


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[David Nusinow]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 12:11:03AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> What you fail to see is that there is not really such a thing as the www 
> team. Basically there are a bunch of people with commit access who all 
> mostly just care about a particular part of the website.
> For some this is the technical infrastructure, for some it is a set of 
> pages, for some it is a translation and for some it is a combination. 
> There is currently no such thing as a "team" that works on/looks after 
> the website as a whole.

I'm pretty shocked at this, to be honest. I can't believe no one has wanted
to take responsibility for working on the web site. I've had more offers to
help work on it than I can remember by random users in #debian, so I'm
stunned that this is the situation. Granted, we've had no visible progress
on overhauling the website over the years, so maybe it was naive of me to
think that someone was taking responsibility for it.

 - David "No, I'm not going to work on the website" Nusinow


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[David Nusinow]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 06:22:08PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 12:11:03AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> > However, I do feel my comment is justified in the sense that if there is 
> > one thing in Debian that is the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then 
> > it is the website. So yes, if you've never contributed in any way to the 
> > website, feel some shame and kindly shut up.

The only thing I've ever heard about helping out with the website is that
it's a herculean task that no mere mortal should attempt.

> If it's the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then why doesn't everyone
> have commit access?

That's exactly why I've abandoned the web site for the wiki anyway. I
trivially had access, as does everyone else on the XSF, even non-DD's,
making it incredibly easy to actually do work. As far as I'm concerned, the
web site should be deprecated in favor of the wiki. I'm pretty sure Joey
Hess has blogged about something similar.

 - David Nusinow


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Clint Adams]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 12:11:03AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> However, I do feel my comment is justified in the sense that if there is 
> one thing in Debian that is the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then 
> it is the website. So yes, if you've never contributed in any way to the 
> website, feel some shame and kindly shut up.

If it's the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then why doesn't everyone
have commit access?


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 12:11:03AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:

> However, I do feel my comment is justified in the sense that if there is 
> one thing in Debian that is the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then 
> it is the website. So yes, if you've never contributed in any way to the 
> website, feel some shame and kindly shut up.

  Wow, I like the impression to have been read and well understood. I'm
already busy enough with the libc, formerly KDE, or bts-link or whatever
project I did and teams I contributed to for Debian.

  Anyways thanks, I think you did a pretty good demonstration of what I
meant. Further comments are not really needed.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frans Pop]

On Saturday 26 May 2007 23:58, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
>   So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
> mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
> job.

Constructive criticism is welcome; ridiculing only shows a bad attitude by 
the person who does it.

What you fail to see is that there is not really such a thing as the www 
team. Basically there are a bunch of people with commit access who all 
mostly just care about a particular part of the website.
For some this is the technical infrastructure, for some it is a set of 
pages, for some it is a translation and for some it is a combination. 
There is currently no such thing as a "team" that works on/looks after 
the website as a whole.

However, I do feel my comment is justified in the sense that if there is 
one thing in Debian that is the joint responsibility of _all_ DDs, then 
it is the website. So yes, if you've never contributed in any way to the 
website, feel some shame and kindly shut up.

Cheers,
FJP


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 11:20:53PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Saturday 26 May 2007 23:07, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> > shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> > stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> > not 1997, sorry).
> 
> Why don't you join the team?

  Now unlike Raphaël initiative, *this* is so typical from Debian. The:
“You think that sucks, so why don't you step up ?” attitude. It is a
very convenient attitude that allows to makes the person making critics
miserable in front of everybody, hoping he (or she) will hide because of
the shame, and avoid dealing with the less convenient and less
auto-satisfactory fact that many aspects in Debian suck.

  So well, sorry, but I don't see why I should be part of every
mis-functioning team in Debian to have the right to say they do a poor
job.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Frans Pop]

On Saturday 26 May 2007 23:07, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> and the debian-www team is recovering from the
> shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
> stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
> not 1997, sorry).

Why don't you join the team?


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 10:54:06PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2007, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > * Raphael Hertzog ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070526 21:52]:
> > > In order to try to address that I started a wiki page whose goal is to be 
> > > a
> > > good introductory page to all teams. Anyone who wants to learn more about
> > > some teams should be able to consult the page and have an idea of what
> > > he/she could do to start contributing to the team, and maybe later join 
> > > it.
> > > 
> > > http://wiki.debian.org/Teams
> > 
> > I doubt that a wiki is the solution to everything.
> 
> Did I say it's a solution to everything ? Certainly not. Can it help us?
> Certainly.

  Actually I think it won't solve anything, but fore sure it can't hurt
us. It's just that I can already predict that DSA page will remain only
be edited by you, that the Apache team will never report anything (is
there one anyways ?), and the debian-www team is recovering from the
shock that HTML 4.01 has been released recently and that CSS2 is almost
stable (err wait, I wasn't reading my calendar properly, we're in 2007
not 1997, sorry).

  FWIW, I don't think your initiative will help doing anything concrete,
and I strongly regret it.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Sat, 26 May 2007, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Raphael Hertzog ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070526 21:52]:
> > In order to try to address that I started a wiki page whose goal is to be a
> > good introductory page to all teams. Anyone who wants to learn more about
> > some teams should be able to consult the page and have an idea of what
> > he/she could do to start contributing to the team, and maybe later join it.
> > 
> > http://wiki.debian.org/Teams
> 
> I doubt that a wiki is the solution to everything.

Did I say it's a solution to everything ? Certainly not. Can it help us?
Certainly.

> And, btw, I think that the release team is already covered well on
> release.debian.org, via regular mails to d-d-a and in the developers
> reference.

Very good, then it's easy to create the page and point to the existing
bits of information. There's value in having a centralized point
describing all teams. 

You also regularly answer to FAQ on -release and on #debian-release.
Having an official FAQ would be interesting.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 10:13:51PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Raphael Hertzog ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070526 21:52]:
> > In order to try to address that I started a wiki page whose goal is to be a
> > good introductory page to all teams. Anyone who wants to learn more about
> > some teams should be able to consult the page and have an idea of what
> > he/she could do to start contributing to the team, and maybe later join it.
> > 
> > http://wiki.debian.org/Teams
> 
> I doubt that a wiki is the solution to everything. And, btw, I think
> that the release team is already covered well on release.debian.org, via
> regular mails to d-d-a and in the developers reference.
> 

I think that having a centrally located list of teams within Debian and
where someone can go to learn more/get involved is a good thing.

Regards,

-Roberto
-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com


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Re: Wanted: introductory page for all teams

[Andreas Barth]

* Raphael Hertzog ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070526 21:52]:
> In order to try to address that I started a wiki page whose goal is to be a
> good introductory page to all teams. Anyone who wants to learn more about
> some teams should be able to consult the page and have an idea of what
> he/she could do to start contributing to the team, and maybe later join it.
> 
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams

I doubt that a wiki is the solution to everything. And, btw, I think
that the release team is already covered well on release.debian.org, via
regular mails to d-d-a and in the developers reference.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
  http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/


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