Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 01:05:56AM -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong 
> > dpi setting
> 
> Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of
> the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically.

That's an interesting observation, as Ubuntu 6.06 LTS does not configure X
to use the proprietary driver by default.  If that device worked out of the
box, it was due to Ubuntu having a newer version of the open source ATI
driver.

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 07:44:59PM -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
> Then lets look at how stable ubuntu stable is or is not.  I know I've
> seen posts on these lists suggesting that ubuntu stable tends to pull
> in things from debian unstable[1] and is therefore less stable.

Ubuntu does not pull packages from Debian unstable into its stable releases,
and never has.  We pull packages from unstable into our development branch,
which is then progressively frozen, stabilized and released.

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Rene Engelhard]

Am Montag, 4. September 2006 08:08 schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky:
> 
> > 
> > Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure
> > security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the
> > OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top
> > of that is asking too much.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Well, might be. I dont really know if the Sarge's OOo 2.0 beta crashes 

There is no "Sarges OOo 2.0 beta".

Regards,

Rene

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure
security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the
OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top
of that is asking too much.




Well, might be. I dont really know if the Sarge's OOo 2.0 beta crashes 
too, however, since I don't think many people are actually using it.


The question however is, why should it take over 2 months to fix such a 
cruel bug after it has been discovered.


Peter


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===

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Referát informatiky
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Jon Dowland]

At 1156986534 past the epoch, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is
> > important to remind that the bug he is talking about in
> > not affecting OpenOffice only, that it was introduced by
> > a security update, and that for various reasons the fix
> > takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken
> > Sarge.
>   ^
> Do you mean Testing?

A security update in sarge for a different package breaks
OOo2 in some circumstances on Sarge. That is, if someone
installs OOo2, which means fetching it from elsewhere
(backports perhaps?) an unrelated security update will stop
it working.

Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure
security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the
OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top
of that is asking too much.


-- 
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http://alcopop.org/


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Tristan Seligmann]

* Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-08-31 01:08:54 +0200]:

> Am 2006-08-29 11:55:05, schrieb Charles Plessy:
> 
> > Dear Michelle,
> > 
> > to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind
> > that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that
> > it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the
> > fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge.
>^
> Do you mean Testing?

The breakage being referred to was introduced in a security update for
sarge.
-- 
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-29 11:55:05, schrieb Charles Plessy:

> Dear Michelle,
> 
> to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind
> that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that
> it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the
> fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge.
   ^
Do you mean Testing?

> Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian
> communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar
> in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a
> broken material was released, so special communication could help to
> contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it.

And since I have read on MANY Debian Lists, there a peoples using
Testing and had NEVER problems I can not believe it.  I wold never
take over the idea to tell my customers to use Testing!

Can you imagine, you have an enterprise and can not more work because...

> Have a nice day,

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-27 01:19:23, schrieb Adam Borowski:

> I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an
> illegal alien.  And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be
> already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can
> sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing
> debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot.


If you are working for the French Ministry of Defense in conjunction
with the Interneational Court of Justice (Den Haag) you will have
some privilegues.

And yes, I can can do voyagues in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Turkey
without any problems using a Syrien passport NON-VALID in Europe.

But thats not a problem with the MOF but with the regional Prefecture.

> Michelle, you're not a nobody.  Many people know you.  If I walked

I know and my E-mail searched in Googls for at least the last 8 Years
(This is WHY I accept several 1000' apamss per day and using
spamassassin, etc.)

> Also, the name means little.  I don't really care if an upload was
> done by a person who claims to be named "Benjamin Seidenberg", I care

Since I am Hermaphrodite (I have a legal judgement for the name change)
there is a problem with my nams now...  5 diffent names...

1)  My Birthname=> Tamay Dogan  (female)

2)  My illegal Adoptivname  => Carsten Konzack  (male)

3)  At the french Foreignt Legion   => Michel Clairmont (male)
and later (now women at the FL) => Michelle Clairmont   (female)

4)  And my Civil European Name  => Michelle Konzack (female)

5)  And since my friends in Morocco => Samira Samir (female + male)
know I am hermaprodite, they call me 

Now I am waiting for the European Court of jusice to decide what to do.
(I am genetic hermaphrodit, so NO doctor can tell I am female or male)

(I like to be HOW I AM - an Hermaphrodite doing its job)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day, - confusing the World
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-26 02:01:21, schrieb Benjamin Seidenberg:

> You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card.

:-)

Where can I get this?  -  Martin?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-26 02:56:25, schrieb Hendrik Sattler:
> Am Freitag 25 August 2006 12:54 schrieb Wouter Verhelst:
> > Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already
> 
> I guess that those that care for the smallest possible base system (and those 
> that hate initrd/initramfs) have their own kernel. My one (for a laptop) has 
> an installed size of 7456 KB (not even close to 50MB).

For Linux its true.  I have arround the same size.

> HS

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky:
> 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
> either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
> thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 

But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable!

> 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even 
> documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, 
> and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to 
> make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically 
> install national fonts and translation packages if the user already 
> entered his location and national data.

Right, this is one thing I mis in the installation of X.

Same for the console font since it does not fit my needs
for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" or "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".

Using UTF-8 on the console is a nightmare...

LatArCyrHeb is no solution since it is not complete.

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-24 17:51:55, schrieb Rudy Godoy:

> I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than
> budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to
> use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they
> tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we
> are not good on advertise our OS.

What do we do, if one day to another 10 million or more peoples want to
use Linux (it does not mater which distribution)  ARE WE PREPARED?

I asume, the worldwide Linux resources would crash.

> We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to
> get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist,
> corporate employee, student, doctor, etc.

Right...

> That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people
> more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for
> those who already in the computing area.
> I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great.

 ?
 ?  (Skolelinux)

> No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and
> not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and
> good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell
> ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to
> others too!

Hmmm...

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Martin Schulze]

John Goerzen wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 05:09:54PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > ciol wrote:
> > > The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like
> > > volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's
> > > difficult to see the links.
> > 
> > The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports)
> > are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not
> > integrated in the current stable installer.  It is discussed to change
> > this though.  You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced.

> As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what
> quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving.

It's Debian developers.  They're updated occasionally.  Security updates
are pulled into both archives in similar timeframes like security.debian.org,
sometimes even faster since not that many architectures are involved.

Regards,

Joey

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Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 10:26:22AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
[volatile and backports]
> As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what
> quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving.

Volatile was set up by Andreas Barth, and is maintained by Andreas and
Martin Zobel-Helas. Both are Debian Developers; in fact, since the time
that Joey left the job open, both have now become our Stable Release
Managers.

Software for volatile is autobuilt on the same 'unofficial' buildd setup
as the one for experimental. I call it 'unofficial' because it's not
hosted on any debian.org machine, but the reality is that the people
maintaining these machines have to adhere to the same standards as the
ones maintaining the official network (i.e., they're all DDs).

Backports was set up by Norbert Tretkowski. The published policy is that
only packages that have made it into testing will be allowed on
backports.org; and people with a keyring in the Debian keyring can
upload packages there -- nobody else.

Builds for backports are done by the same unofficial setup as the one
for volatile and experimental, though at least m68k is not autobuilt for
backports (since I (a) don't have the hardware, and (b) don't have the
time to maintain yet another buildd host. Interested people are welcome
to volunteer, provided they're DDs).

-- 
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Tyler MacDonald]

Charles Plessy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian
> communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar
> in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a
> broken material was released, so special communication could help to
> contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it.

Hmm, like a "top bugs" section on the front page of debian.org? That
would be interesting. Specific bugs could be added to the list (and fall
off, say, a week after they are closed), and bugs that are seeing a lot of
activity could step in blanks when there's not enough manual bugs to fill
the list.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Charles Plessy]

Le Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 10:00:08PM +0200, Michelle Konzack a écrit :
> Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky:
> > 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
> > either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
> > thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 
> 
> But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable!

Dear Michelle,

to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind
that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that
it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the
fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge.

I conclude from this that there is a problem of transparency /
communication :

- The people complaining had the impression that nobody was caring
  fixing the problem, because there was no apparent activity, and the
  problem was claimed to be solved.

- Many answers to Mgr Tuharsky got were counter-criticisms focusing on
  OpenOffice, and overlooking the fact that the security update broke
  many more programs.

- The fix was lost in the limbo for some time between two teams, leaving
  the users reading the bug report in a situation in which they can not
  decide who to contact to unblock the situation.

- The problem is getting solved in silence.


Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian
communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar
in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a
broken material was released, so special communication could help to
contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
http://charles.plessy.org
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Benjamin Seidenberg]

Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:01:21AM -0400, Benjamin Seidenberg wrote:
>   
>> Michelle Konzack wrote:
>> 
>>> Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin
>>> iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter
>>> the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs.
>>>
>>> Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me.
>>>   
>> You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card.
>> 
>
> I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an
> illegal alien.  And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be
> already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can
> sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing
> debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot.
>
>
> And, there is a number of ways to reasonably prove your identity
> better than an ID.  And ID can be gotten by talking to an
> absent-minded clerk, bribing the said underpaid clerk or even get a
> nice blank one from Ivan -- so an ID cannot be deemed a solid proof.
>
> Michelle, you're not a nobody.  Many people know you.  If I walked
> with you to a known figure who knew you for a number of years and he
> vouched for you, I would be a lot more certain than if I had seen
> nothing but a smudged photo on an ID.  You can bribe or sweet-talk the
> guy to fool me, but I still would call an university professor or the
> like someone more trustworthy than a nameless clerk.  And I'm sure
> there's a number of similar people who know you.  What would you say
> about the chief of Polish chapter of FFII?  He's a long-time buddy of
> mine, even though I haven't seen him for a number of years.  While
> not a DD, I don't think his word would have less weight than an ID
> you can get for $25.
>
>
> Also, the name means little.  I don't really care if an upload was
> done by a person who claims to be named "Benjamin Seidenberg", I care
> that it was done by a person with a history of valid good
> contributions whose prior work was checked by many people.  Whether
> it was signed by "Benjamin Seidenberg" doesn't matter until I want to
> pursue legal action.  I don't need your real name to appreciate your
> deeds -- feeling thankful to "astronut" works as well.
>
>
> It's the ownership of the key what matters, not the name attached to
> it.  It's important to know that the key is yours, not that it
> belongs to a "Benjamin Seidenberg".
>
>
>   
This issue was heavily discussed in a previous project thread after the
blog post I linked to was published. It incited a huge flame war, which
I was referring to in humor.



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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Daniel Dickinson]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 01:17:42PM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:
> At the beginning of my comments, there has been a statement from Rudy: 
> "We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to
> use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what 
> they tell that we can't? nothing." and as his message continues 
> (25.08.2006 00:51)
> 
> I have objected, that if viewed from angle of average-Joe-user, Debian 
> lacks many things to compare with Ubuntu.
> 
> Whoever wants to use computer, not do hacking and testing, will reach 
> for "stable" system. Comparing latest *stable* release of Debian with 
> latest *stable* release of Ubuntu is therefore appropriate, like it or 
> not. It's not fault of Ubuntu if the results are not too attractive for 

Then lets look at how stable ubuntu stable is or is not.  I know I've
seen posts on these lists suggesting that ubuntu stable tends to pull
in things from debian unstable[1] and is therefore less stable.  If
that really is the case then comparing debian stable to ubuntu stable
is in fact not a fair comparison (or rather comparing *only* versions
of upstream software is not reasonable).  

Sometime ago I read suggestions that running debian testing is
approximately equivalent to running other distributions' stable
releases, however I can't seem to find where that came from (too much
chatter to pick anything up in a quick google search). So if we're
going to talk about a fair comparison, let's make sure we're comparing
stability and number of bugs in the release as well.  Also, what about
bugs that get introduced by other bug or security fixes?  How often do
they happen in debian compared to other projects, and when they do,
how quickly are they found and fixed?  What about Debian stable
compared to RHEL or Ubuntu server in a serer environment with Debian
testing compared to fedora and ubuntu on the desktop?

I personally use debian stable on my home server, with a mixed
stable/volatile/testing/(few)unstable set of packages on my desktop.
The truth is though, once Etch comes out I will probably stick with
stable.  Certain projects like OpenOffice.org (2.0.x) and Mozilla
(1.5.x) are starting to mature to the point where I won't feel that
upgrading them (aside from security fixes) frequently is necessary.

"Back in the day" (late 80's, early 90's) users of DOS, and then
Windows 3.1, had an os that didn't change much for years at a time,
and once you bought a software package you were usually stuck with
that version until you bought another one.  

I think part of what has happened with gnu/linux is that it has taken
a significant amount of time to mature with some major components
(gnome/kde, mozilla, ooo) only being relative newcomers when compared
to apps like MS Word (first release in the early 80's for DOS).

> Sarge (note: Sarge! I don't compare Woody.)  If Etch was claimed
> stable at the time, I would compare him, however he has some half

[1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/08/msg01116.html

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[John Goerzen]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 05:09:54PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> ciol wrote:
> > The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like
> > volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's
> > difficult to see the links.
> 
> The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports)
> are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not
> integrated in the current stable installer.  It is discussed to change
> this though.  You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced.

If they would become official projects, with official and default
support -- including security and installer support -- I would be a lot
happier.  

As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what
quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Joey Schulze]

ciol wrote:
> > Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3.

... squid3 is in *gosh* testing.

> The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like
> volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's
> difficult to see the links.

The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports)
are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not
integrated in the current stable installer.  It is discussed to change
this though.  You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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not tried it.  -- Donald E. Knuth

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky:
> 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
> either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
> thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 

But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable!

> 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even 
> documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, 
> and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to 
> make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically 
> install national fonts and translation packages if the user already 
> entered his location and national data.

Right, this is one thing I mis in the installation of X.

Same for the console font since it does not fit my needs
for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" or "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".

Using UTF-8 on the console is a nightmare...

LatArCyrHeb is no solution since it is not complete.

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-24 17:51:55, schrieb Rudy Godoy:

> I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than
> budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to
> use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they
> tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we
> are not good on advertise our OS.

What do we do, if one day to another 10 million or more peoples want to
use Linux (it does not mater which distribution)  ARE WE PREPARED?

I asume, the worldwide Linux resources would crash.

> We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to
> get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist,
> corporate employee, student, doctor, etc.

Right...

> That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people
> more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for
> those who already in the computing area.
> I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great.

 ?
 ?  (Skolelinux)

> No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and
> not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and
> good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell
> ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to
> others too!

Hmmm...

Greetings
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Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Marco d'Itri]

On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many
> > different packages more recent than a couple of years.
> That's when backports and chroots comes in.
Backports have dubious quality and do not get real security support.

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Marco


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

Wouter, it seems You don't understand my point of view.

I don't question development results in Debian. I, too, couldn't, 
because so far I haven't met any Etch installation.
I read Weekly news and watch the progress. I see there's quite a 
development inside of Debian. As of release cycle being "shortened to 18 
months", I wouldn't that call just an "improvement" -that decision has 
probably been one of those that has saved Debian from falling behind the 
scene.



So let's clarify the points of view. There has been an idea opened, that 
could be interpreted in the way, that Debian can fully compare with Ubuntu.


I objected, that current official (stable) release of Debian, yes, 
Sarge, lacks ease of use (because of bunch of reasons) for 
average-Joe-user if compared with official (stable) Ubuntu.


Some people have no problem accepting this. There are many details in UI 
and basic administration that can be improved in future (Etch?) to make 
Debian more attractive for ordinary computer users.



I'm happy that You point me to cases that are solved with Etch. If some 
others get fixed, Etch will probably be much better for ordinary users 
than Sarge is now. Let's hope it will bear the comparison with stable 
version of Ubuntu 18 months later. That said, mid-way partial-update 
release could make it a bit bearable I think.


Peter




 Verhelst  wrote / napísal(a):

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 11:33:00AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:

Wouter:

I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is
in the state "Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may
take some years". Well, user dosen't have the years and need things
working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by
downloading, compiling etc, or says "Things don't work in Debian and
it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ".

Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to
discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios.
Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning 
everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way.


It is not useful to discuss hypothetical scenarios, sorry. I refuse to
do that.

I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find 
even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration..


Yes, but most of them were not valid.


Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your
sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs.
Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will 
be of great help for sure.

Besides, if it is "that easy", why Debian just dosen't do it itself?


Because the mplayer people refuse to think about licenses, which means
that it is illegal software in many countries. We cannot take that risk.


Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are
less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine.
Which both have a *much* saner design, too.
This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play 
on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media 
by that.


I didn't say it is obsolete yet, but that it is getting there.


True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will
download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem?
Did You try it in real? 


[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ LC_ALL=C dpkg -l msttcorefonts
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed
|/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name   VersionDescription
+++-==-==-
ii  msttcorefonts  1.2Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts

[...]

In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for
unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot
go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a
Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's
actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary.
I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here.
We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not 
for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If 
the Etch has it, that's great.


java-package has existed since way before sarge, and is part of that
distribution.

The regular java package is not, but we obviously cannot just go ahead
and destabilize stable just for the sake of a java package. When I said
"it is in unstable", that was because we are working on getting better
integration with java in the *next* stable release. It was not a
suggestion that you should start using unstable.


However that dosen't matter answering the "Debian is at least as good
as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising".  Wo

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sam Morris]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:33:00 +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:
>> Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your
>> sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs.
> 
> Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will 
> be of great help for sure.
> Besides, if it is "that easy", why Debian just dosen't do it itself?

Are you offering to pay Debian's costs and damages for the resulting
patent and copyright lawsuits?

>> Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are
>> less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine.
>> Which both have a *much* saner design, too.
> 
> This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play 
> on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media 
> by that.

Can you please file bug reports?

-- 
Sam Morris
http://robots.org.uk/

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

At the beginning of my comments, there has been a statement from Rudy: 
"We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to
use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what 
they tell that we can't? nothing." and as his message continues 
(25.08.2006 00:51)


I have objected, that if viewed from angle of average-Joe-user, Debian 
lacks many things to compare with Ubuntu.


That's why I'm speaking entirely about the official Debian release, the 
Debian 3.1 Sarge. Besides, ordinary user, or enterprise, would not 
choose some "testing" distribution, and Etch is for the moment not 
intended for daily work; it is still in beta state and therefore 
intended only for testers that don't mind losing their data or so.


Whoever wants to use computer, not do hacking and testing, will reach 
for "stable" system. Comparing latest *stable* release of Debian with 
latest *stable* release of Ubuntu is therefore appropriate, like it or 
not. It's not fault of Ubuntu if the results are not too attractive for 
Sarge (note: Sarge! I don't compare Woody.)
If Etch was claimed stable at the time, I would compare him, however he 
has some half year to go from now.



Peter


Martijn van Oosterhout  wrote / napísal(a):

On 8/28/06, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not
for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If
the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the
"Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising".
Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is
in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I
hope You'ld not.


Hmm, to me this sounds like this is just another way of saying that
Debian doesn't release fast enough. The fact is, sarge has been
released, whatever your complaining about is never going to be fixed
in sarge, so yes, you need to be comparing with Etch.

If you can say that there are problems with Etch, then we can address
those. complaining about Sarge is not terribly useful.

And yes, lots of people are running etch for daily usage. I don't
recommend anything to anyone, I just use what works...


A little paraphrase: "stable" means, that feature bugs are kept for the
whole release circle; don't expect them to get fixed."


Well, ofcourse. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable... Certain types of
bugs are fixed, but by and large, you're stuck with the bugs it was
released with...

Have a nice day,



--

Odchádzajúca správa neobsahuje vírusy, nepoužívam Windows.
===

Mgr. Peter Tuhársky
Referát informatiky
Mesto Banská Bystrica
ČSA 26
975 39 Banská Bystrica

Tel: +421 48 4330 118
Fax: +421 48 411 3575

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 11:33:00AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:
> Wouter:
> >>I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is
> >>in the state "Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may
> >>take some years". Well, user dosen't have the years and need things
> >>working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by
> >>downloading, compiling etc, or says "Things don't work in Debian and
> >>it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ".
> >
> >Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to
> >discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios.
> 
> Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning 
> everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way.

It is not useful to discuss hypothetical scenarios, sorry. I refuse to
do that.

> I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find 
> even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration..

Yes, but most of them were not valid.

> >Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your
> >sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs.
> 
> Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will 
> be of great help for sure.
> Besides, if it is "that easy", why Debian just dosen't do it itself?

Because the mplayer people refuse to think about licenses, which means
that it is illegal software in many countries. We cannot take that risk.

> >Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are
> >less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine.
> >Which both have a *much* saner design, too.
> 
> This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play 
> on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media 
> by that.

I didn't say it is obsolete yet, but that it is getting there.

> >True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will
> >download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem?
> 
> Did You try it in real? 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ LC_ALL=C dpkg -l msttcorefonts
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed
|/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name   VersionDescription
+++-==-==-
ii  msttcorefonts  1.2Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts

[...]
> >In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for
> >unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot
> >go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a
> >Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or
> >Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's
> >actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary.
> >I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here.
> 
> We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not 
> for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If 
> the Etch has it, that's great.

java-package has existed since way before sarge, and is part of that
distribution.

The regular java package is not, but we obviously cannot just go ahead
and destabilize stable just for the sake of a java package. When I said
"it is in unstable", that was because we are working on getting better
integration with java in the *next* stable release. It was not a
suggestion that you should start using unstable.

> However that dosen't matter answering the "Debian is at least as good
> as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising".  Would You advertise Etch? It
> is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is in TESTING state. Would You
> recommend it everyone for daily usage? I hope You'ld not.

That is so totally besides the point it isn't funny anymore.

Of course I wouldn't suggest etch for stable environments. But will you
at least allow me to point out that the problems you point to have been
fixed for the next stable release already?

There's nothing we can do to improve sarge now anymore, anyway; so
anything you suggest here would result in etch getting better when it
releases. Since there's a java package for etch, that particular problem
has already been dealt with.

(of course, that doesn't make etch and java be totally free of problems,
since the sun jdk is in non-free, not main. But still)

[...]
> >>1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
> >>either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
> >>thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 
> >>is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about 
> >>average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does.
> >
> >I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no
> >Internet access currently.
> >
> >However, I will add that I haven't

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Martin Wuertele]

* Marco d'Itri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-08-28 12:35]:

> You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many
> different packages more recent than a couple of years.
 
That's when backports and chroots comes in.

yours Martin
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Debian GNU/Linux - The Universal Operating System
 I think I should take a shower and sleep
 macan, I totally agree


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>> You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more
>> frequently.
> You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many
> different packages more recent than a couple of years.

Sure you do, if the new version has a feature that your application
"needs", would make things simpler for the developers, would make
things simpler for you, etc, etc.

For example:  Stable has PostgreSQL v7.4, but v8.x have features
*needed* by Very Large Databases:
- Improved SMP Performance
- Table Partitioning
- 64-bit Shared Memory
- Faster Aggregates
- Tablespaces

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFE8sshS9HxQb37XmcRApnDAKCJOb58Rq1XQtIHudBvSI9JqQ0F4gCgiCmB
m2EJMTXLYSnKnXUZtp0TmFo=
=viPw
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[ciol]

Martin Wuertele wrote:

> Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3.

The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like
volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's
difficult to see the links.





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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Marco d'Itri]

On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Whoo no way! I don't want to updated my servers more than once 18-24
> months. I don't need php5, specs says php4 and php5, squid does it's job
> very good and clamav from volatile rounds the package up. 
Then don't.
The problem for people like you is not more too frequent releases but
too short support for past releases.

> You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more
> frequently.
You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many
different packages more recent than a couple of years.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Martin Wuertele]

* Mgr. Peter Tuharsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-08-28 12:05]:

> To make the picture more complete, not only desktop needs current 
> software. The Debian on server lacks sometimes too.
> 
> Few examples: PHP5, bunch of Clamav-related packages for proxy and mail 
> interaction, Squid3. They're in Etch, however if released as official 
> update of Debian, should do.

Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3.

> If "update release" of Debian has taken place only in half of the 
> regular update cycle (after 9 months), it would be of great help sometimes.
> Of course, some more recent kernel should take place there too.
 
Whoo no way! I don't want to updated my servers more than once 18-24
months. I don't need php5, specs says php4 and php5, squid does it's job
very good and clamav from volatile rounds the package up. 

You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more
frequently.

yours Martin
-- 
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 lol, mein feuermelder ist dausicher
 im batteriefach unter der batterie steht
 "WARNUNG: BATTERIE ENTFERNT"


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On 8/28/06, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not
for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If
the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the
"Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising".
Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is
in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I
hope You'ld not.


Hmm, to me this sounds like this is just another way of saying that
Debian doesn't release fast enough. The fact is, sarge has been
released, whatever your complaining about is never going to be fixed
in sarge, so yes, you need to be comparing with Etch.

If you can say that there are problems with Etch, then we can address
those. complaining about Sarge is not terribly useful.

And yes, lots of people are running etch for daily usage. I don't
recommend anything to anyone, I just use what works...


A little paraphrase: "stable" means, that feature bugs are kept for the
whole release circle; don't expect them to get fixed."


Well, ofcourse. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable... Certain types of
bugs are fixed, but by and large, you're stuck with the bugs it was
released with...

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official "update sub-release"

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

To make the picture more complete, not only desktop needs current 
software. The Debian on server lacks sometimes too.


Few examples: PHP5, bunch of Clamav-related packages for proxy and mail 
interaction, Squid3. They're in Etch, however if released as official 
update of Debian, should do.



If "update release" of Debian has taken place only in half of the 
regular update cycle (after 9 months), it would be of great help sometimes.

Of course, some more recent kernel should take place there too.


Peter


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

Wouter:
1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at 
worst. Debian dosen't.


That's true, but this is improving.


Hope I could see it soon. Really.



I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is
in the state "Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may
take some years". Well, user dosen't have the years and need things
working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by
downloading, compiling etc, or says "Things don't work in Debian and
it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ".


Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to
discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios.


Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning 
everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way.


I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find 
even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration..




Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your
sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs.


Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will 
be of great help for sure.

Besides, if it is "that easy", why Debian just dosen't do it itself?



Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are
less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine.
Which both have a *much* saner design, too.


This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play 
on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media 
by that.



True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will
download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem?


Did You try it in real? It dosen't work here. Seems that the server it 
tryes to access dosen't exist. Or it depends on some network 
configuration, that installer also haven't taken care of.



In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for
unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot
go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a
Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's
actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary.
I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here.


We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not 
for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If 
the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the 
"Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising". 
Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is 
in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I 
hope You'ld not.



Do you actually have a real and founded gripe, or are you just trolling?


Anyone that is in contact with average-joe-users, that are not skilled 
enough for using root console, will make the image himself.


1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 
is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about 
average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does.


I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no
Internet access currently.

However, I will add that I haven't seen this bug on the stable systems
that I run; even though that of course doesn't have to mean anything, it
is at least an indication that the bug is not everywhere, and that it
may be a problem to track it down.


Not every stable system runs security updates, and even less desktop 
systems do. That might be a reason why "everyone complains" is not the 
case. And might even becouse there are just too few desktop 
installations of Debian, even less those that run security upgrades, and 
even less the enterprise installations, that could possibly complain. 
Average-Joe-user would never complain loudly.
And the enterprices, that WOULD complain, often don't run security 
upgrades either, exactly in fear of such bugs that sneak inside the 
"security upgrades".


So there's not much voice to hear.


There is an infrastructure to support a fully i18n'ed environment upon
installation. It uses language-based tasks, and the installer will
install the task of the language you've used in the installer upon
completion of the installation. If you chose to install the desktop
task, it will also install the desktop-$language task (or was it
$language-desktop? not sure, doesn't really matter).


Do You speak of Debian Sarge? If true, than either the language-based 
tasks are incomplete, or don't work.



k3b actually has a "suggests" header for k3b-i18n. This means that if
you install k3b using a frontend such as apt-get or aptitude, it will
tell you up-front that there 

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

Rudy:

There is so much to say about that, that I hardly 
can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that 
basis. 


I wasn't attacking you, If you had that impression I'm sorry.


No, I really hadn't. I mentioned that just preventively, not targeted at 
You -because I feel it is quite common in wider audience to attack on 
this basis.



1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at 
worst. Debian dosen't.



Yes, but Debian has a broader user-base, maybe that's an issue to resolve.


Sounds dangerously :-)



I think the issues you point out is the feeback what we need, and
discuss about them. I encourage you to also post to the mailing list.

I'm trying to figure out how we can "listen" more our users needs, and
then make decissions based on real information and not only what we
feel. I want to reach those average-joe users and get their feedback.



Yeah, that's not easy.

Howabout some form -user could be navigated to some basic webpage where 
he could answer some simple questions? Not too many questions (optimally 
5-8?), preferably pre-answered (by some selection box), of course with 
possibility to add non-default answer for us to be able to extend the 
possible answers cathegories..


If user wished to add more feedback, he could have an option, at the end 
of the basic form, of some "more feedback, if U wish" extended form.


Sample questions: "What have been the most difficult part of 
installation for You" (disk partitioning, language selection,...), "What 
have caused it (unsufficient help, nonintuitive, too technical questions).


User should be asked, if he will participate on some short 
"survey-after-week-of-using-Debian". If he agreed, he will be asked 
automatically after week, by opening some simple and polite application 
or applet on his desktop, about his impression of Debian. Again, what 
pleases him now (amount of software, ease of setup, everything just 
works, desktop design, etc...) and what he dislikes (cannot connect my 
cellular phone, Infra not working, Xsane demands root privilegues but 
complains if he is given them, etc)


These questions could be structured in the way, that user could pair 
them. For example, he has a question. In left selection rollup-button he 
could select WHAT and in second he could select WHY. Example:

What is the worst problem for You with Debian?

Internet applications
Instant messaging
Multimedia
...


Insufficient helper
Lack of applications
Lack of functionality
...


And so on. Is something like that being worked on?

As I look at this concept, I feel one half of problems should be 
identified even in the very process of creating questions and possible 
answers for the initial and after-week survey :-)


Well, I'm starting to like the idea so I try to open a new thread ;o)


Rudy, from Your next answers it seems that we understand each other.


God bless You, have a nice day
Peter



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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

Bruce,

> Uhm, Debian's target audience is not Joe User, never has been AFAICT.

> Joe isn't usually capable of determining which MTA, web server, proxy 
server, etc., specific implementation is best for them, assuming they 
are even aware of the architecture underlying the UI they see... Debian 
assumes all of that of its users.


Then You must let them go to Ubuntu, because many simply don't want to 
know that either, just use the computer for their daily tasks.


In that case, we can close that "Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu" 
dispute immediately, being false. Instead, we can say "Debian is at 
least as good as Ubuntu FOR TECHNICAL USERS" safely.


> Why "old" software is commonplace. Slow and lazy with the 
packaging... or does it just take time to get all the pieces functioning 
well enough to be an easily derivable basis, and one which changes every 
six months would be a poor choice for that use.


I'd say neither of that. Just unable to recognize a few pieces of 
software that needs to be upgraded more frequently, and (so far) unable 
to make that happen. Ideas are coming however, maybe one day we'll see 
it happening.


> The way I see it: distros tailored to specific types of users which 
are based on Debian are not making up for Debian's failings, they are 
the most natural and may even be the actual intended use of what Debian 
provides.


Yes, I see it natural too. Debian is doing the great task of gathering 
free software and making it work together as-much-as-possible. Making 
the universal and useful distribution for everyone might be beyond it's 
ability, and there the place for Ubuntu and friends emerges.. Some 
Debianists don't like it, however let's celebrate that at least Ubuntu 
is making the user-friendly distro that people like.


Peter

>
> HTH
>
>
> - Bruce
>
>






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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bruce Sass]

[sorry for the duplicate, but I want to fix the threading]

On Sun August 27 2006 18:55, David Nusinow wrote:
> Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist
> nonsense and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the
> Ubuntu people, but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a
> project just so that they can excel.

I think you missed the point, Ubuntu's work would then be part of Debian 
rather than superceding or conflicting with what Debian does. Instead 
of Debian annoying its users by adopting Ubuntu-like feature, or 
annoying Ubuntu by not doing so, everyone would be able to get what 
they want within a reusable framework.

Keep in mind that if Ubuntu is able to easily bend Debian to its will 
and create a top-notch desktop, anyone else can do it to... including 
Debian. No need to throw in the towel or compromise anything.


- Bruce


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bruce Sass]

On Sun August 27 2006 18:55, you wrote:
> Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist
> nonsense and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the
> Ubuntu people, but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a
> project just so that they can excel.

I think you missed the point, Ubuntu's work would then be part of Debian 
rather than superceding or conflicting with what Debian does. Instead 
of Debian annoying its users by adopting Ubuntu-like feature, or 
annoying Ubuntu by not doing so, everyone would be able to get what 
they want within a reusable framework.

Keep in mind that if Ubuntu is able to easily bend Debian to its will 
and create a top-notch desktop, anyone else can do it to... including 
Debian. No need to throw in the towel or compromise anything.


- Bruce


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sander Marechal]

David Nusinow wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 10:37:58PM -0600, Bruce Sass wrote:
>> On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote:
>>> * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as
>>> it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was
>>> surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it).
>>>
>>> * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can
>>> safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu
>>> does as well.
>> If by "we" you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would 
>> essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what 
>> either wants.
> 
> I don't care one way or another if it puts Ubuntu out of business (or
> Canonical, as it were), but I want Debian to provide a top-notch desktop
> experience for Debian's sake. 

I agree. Just because Debian doesn't target the newbie's and Windows
switchers that much, doesn't mean that Debian people don't want a nicely
integrated desktop. A Debian desktop would be different from an Ubuntu
desktop because it targets different people.

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[David Nusinow]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 10:37:58PM -0600, Bruce Sass wrote:
> On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote:
> > * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as
> > it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was
> > surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it).
> >
> > * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can
> > safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu
> > does as well.
> 
> If by "we" you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would 
> essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what 
> either wants.

I don't care one way or another if it puts Ubuntu out of business (or
Canonical, as it were), but I want Debian to provide a top-notch desktop
experience for Debian's sake. 

Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist nonsense
and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the Ubuntu people,
but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a project just so that
they can excel.

 - David Nusinow


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bruce Sass]

On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote:
> Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target
> > group differs a lot between Ubuntu and Debian.
>
> I wouldn't say they differ. Ubuntu targets only a small subset of
> Debian users. Maybe Debian should simply split the Desktop task in
> tasksel into two entries:

`Ubuntu users are a subset of Debian users'
Yes, because both, Debian targets all users and Ubuntu is a Debian user.
No, because Ubuntu clearly serves a group that Debian doesn't.

> * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as
> it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was
> surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it).
>
> * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can
> safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu
> does as well.

If by "we" you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would 
essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what 
either wants.

Debian should provide the means for Ubuntu to add "fancy integration 
tricks and extra components" in a safe way. Technically, "the means" 
boils down to the infrastructure and abstractions needed to trivially 
fork a *Debian* package (rather than create an *Ubuntu* package.)

It would be really cool if Debian's "Ubuntu Desktop" task resulted in an 
Ubuntu Desktop system; an even better result would be a Debian system 
with the appropriate sources, pinnings, and configs needed to replicate 
an Ubuntu Desktop for just those things Ubuntu does differently. 
Ubuntu's installer would presumably result in a streamlined and focused 
system, while Debian would be capable of producing and managing a blend 
of Ubuntu's desktop, Whoever's server, whatever, etc., as required.


- Bruce


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jim Crilly wrote:
> On 08/26/06 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
>>> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
 No support for: (The * are critical)
 
 * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
>>> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half
>>> of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares.
>> How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How
>> does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine?
> 
> RH releases updated install discs periodically. I haven't had any
> hardware issues with them so I never compared the contents of the
> discs but I would assume that they update the kernels with each
> update release.

Who would object, and how strenuously, if Stable became Stable-plus-
some-newer-stuff?


- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Jim Crilly]

On 08/26/06 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> >> No support for: (The * are critical)
> >>
> >>* SATA Hard Drives (*)
> >>* Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> > 
> > This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland 
> > would 
> > not fit this hardware, so who cares.
> 
> How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one
> install RHEL 4 on such a machine?

RH releases updated install discs periodically. I haven't had any hardware
issues with them so I never compared the contents of the discs but I would
assume that they update the kernels with each update release. 

Jim.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Knut Yrvin]

Søndag 27 august 2006 23:48, skrev Hendrik Sattler:
> > - Kernel 2.16.2  (2.6.15)
>
> That cannot be correct.

Correction. I forgot the digit #6 :

Kernel 2.6.16-2 (2.6.15)

- K

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Andrew Donnellan]

On 8/28/06, Hendrik Sattler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 23:30 schrieb Knut Yrvin:
> A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test
> version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in
> parenthesis):
>
> - Kernel 2.16.2  (2.6.15)

That cannot be correct.



2.6.16, then...

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 23:30 schrieb Knut Yrvin:
> A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test
> version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in
> parenthesis):
>
> - Kernel 2.16.2  (2.6.15)

That cannot be correct.

HS

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Knut Yrvin]

Lørdag 26 august 2006 15:15, skrev Theodore Tso:
> No support for: (The * are critical)
>
> * SATA Hard Drives (*)
> * IPW3945 wireless (*)
> * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> * 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card
> (propietary kernel module)
> * Verizon 1xEV-DO
>
> Pretty much all of the modern hardware on the T60 is completely
> unsupported by Debian; and most of the above is supported out of the
> box by Unbuntu.

A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test 
version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in 
parenthesis): 

- Kernel 2.16.2  (2.6.15)
- X.org 7.0  (7.0)
- KDE 3.5.4  (3.5.2)
- Firefox 1.5.0.4  (1.5.0.3)
- OpenOffice.org 2.0.3  (2.0.2)

Hopefully people will download the image(s) for testing[1] and give us 
feedback to improve the solution[2]: 

1. http://ftp.skolelinux.no/cd-etch-test/debian-edu-i386-binary-1.raw
2. http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu

When etch is pretty stabilised in November, three months from now, i'll 
install Skolelinux based on etch on my new Thinkpad X60s. Just now we 
are improving the laptop support inspired and with reusing work done by 
the Unbuntu developers. 

Some new software developed by the Ubuntu team is really good from an 
end user perspective. We includes that too. Important work is also done 
to improve the support for thin clients and diskless workstations with 
the project MueKow[3]. 

3. http://wiki.debian.org/LTSPDevelopment

There are still patching issues that has to be addressed in Ubuntu to 
reduce the friction against Debian developers. Debian should be treated 
as upstream to certain extent, and more that is done today. I believe 
*Ubuntu will gain by that because of their business model is based on 
services and tailoring. In general there are still some licencing 
issues with proprietary decoders for video and other proprietary 
solutions where free software still does not have a counterpart, and we 
have to install decoders and such from proprietary vendors (Flash, wmv 
support etc.). 

In Norway we also promote support for fri software and have a dialog on 
governmental level to make support and use of free software as easy as 
it is when using proprietary solutions. The government has already told 
us that open standards is their goal[4]. The left wing government 
elected in 2005 has "increase the use of free software" as their 
political platform. They will follow up and strengthen the former right 
wing party's policy that was “Proprietary formats will no longer be 
acceptable in communication between citizens and government.”

4. http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/4403/469

I hope that we can use the feedbacks and our experiences in user space 
to improve Debian and other Debian derivatives.  Gnu/Linux systems has 
still a little fraction of the desktop marked. The Skolelinux project 
aims to get good solutions on our CDs to the schools. Other distroes 
has other aims. The most productive approach is to help each other to 
make the best distro in the world for different groups of users. 

Best regards

Knut Yrvin

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Christian Pernegger]

This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would 
not fit this hardware, so who cares.


Everyone who would like to install a stable Debian release on hardware 
currently available for purchase.



And this non-free stuff is nothing to discuss about.


Good for you - people still want to use their hardware :)

Not saying that Ubuntu is better, just that stable is utterly useless 
for everything but "reviving" old hardware.


C.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Christian Pernegger]

maybe backports should be considered a 1st class part of Debian; so
in addition to old-stable, stable, testing, and unstable, we could
add, "stable-useful".  The fact of the matter is that the stable
distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and
useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e.,
anything sold in the last 6 months).


I have to agree. Either that or release a small "base distribution" 
every 6 months, whose packages are only updated for security / serious 
bugs and as long as there's no ABI/API changes.


The rest of the packages, especially classical applications (Firefox, 
OO) where users generally want new features could be targeted at these 
releases, maybe even providing a "stable" and "current" version for each 
- both working with the same "base"


Debian has become too large to release in its entirety with any 
frequency whatsoever - instead of dropping archs or release requirements 
I'd rather try to separate "OS components" from "application components" 
. (Maybe I won't have to listen to "why can't I just install a new 
version of X, I can do that under Windows" anymore then.)


Getting all software from the same source (Debian) is great - as it is 
now the different flavors are a bit to monolithic for my taste.


C.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sander Marechal]

Hendrik Sattler wrote:
>>> - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was
>>> puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not
>>> result in network access
>> I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed
>> by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by
>> default, either.  So what's your point?
> 
> It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target group 
> differs 
> a lot between Ubuntu and Debian.

I wouldn't say they differ. Ubuntu targets only a small subset of Debian
users. Maybe Debian should simply split the Desktop task in tasksel into
two entries:

* Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as it
is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was surprised by
the ammount of software that came along with it).

* Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can safely
add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu does as well.

Just my $0.02

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http://www.gnome-hearts.org/


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michael Banck]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 12:03:25PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 07:05 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> > >From the menubar.  System --> Administration --> Synaptic Package Manager
> 
> Funny, Synaptic was not installed but something called adept. Guess what you 
> have to do to install Synaptic ;)

You probably installed Kubuntu then, not Ubuntu.


Michael


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sam Morris]

So can we do this? Load kernel modules or even extra udebs from a
CD/floppy/usb stick/URL that the user provides during the installation
process?

Now I think about it, I seem to remember doing this back with
boot-floppies, to get an e1000 network controller to be recognised by the
installer, IIRC.

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 07:05 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > - installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does
> > not even support this (or for any other means of modifying
> > /etc/apt/sources.list)
> >
> >From the menubar.  System --> Administration --> Synaptic Package Manager

Funny, Synaptic was not installed but something called adept. Guess what you 
have to do to install Synaptic ;)

> > - /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that
>
> Hmm, I didn't notice this problem.  When the dhcp client started
> during the install process, it created the /etc/resolv.conf file for
> me, and subsequent dhcp clients updated the /etc/resolv.conf file
> information automatically from the DHCP serve.

As I said, only a "touch /etc/resolv.conf" solved the problem.

> > - the "root has no password and you must use sudo" sucks for many things
> > as the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su
> > programs but those cannot work).
>
> That's a philosophical dispute, but it's easily fixed simply by
> setting a root password if you really want to use a root shell.  (Or
> by just doing sudo bash, of course.)  I happen to like having a root
> user with a password and to su to root, so I set up my system that
> way.  However, I view that as an emacs vs. vi sort of religious
> dispute.

I meant the graphical su variants, IIRC it's called gtksu. Sure, those things 
are solvable if you know why they do not work and what's actually the 
difference between *su and sudo. However, the one that installed this machine 
did not know this (now he does).

> > - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the
> > wrong dpi setting
>
> Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of
> the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically.

Xorg seems to be broken here, too, as i915resolution showed me entries where 
xorg said they were empty. Strange.

> > - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA,
> > a manual setup of this file is needed
>
> I didn't notice that problem.

Well, I guess installing wpa_supplicant _and_ network-manager would have 
solved that problem.

> > - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was
> > puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not
> > result in network access
>
> I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed
> by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by
> default, either.  So what's your point?

It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target group differs 
a lot between Ubuntu and Debian.

HS


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 01:05:56AM -0400, Theodore Tso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed
> by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by
> default, either.  So what's your point?

Aren't they part of the laptop task, nowadays ?

Mike


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Theodore Tso]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> >> No support for: (The * are critical)
> >>
> >>* SATA Hard Drives (*)
> >>* Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> > 
> > This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland 
> > would 
> > not fit this hardware, so who cares.
> 
> How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one
> install RHEL 4 on such a machine?

RHEL4 has updated kernels/installers that have additional device
drivers added.  And of course it helps that Red Hat has new releases
somewhat more frequently than Debian does with its stable releases;
but that's one of the downsides of relying on an all-volunteer
engineering base.  Things get done... whenever.

- Ted


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Theodore Tso]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> > No support for: (The * are critical)
> >
> > * SATA Hard Drives (*)
> > * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> 
> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of
> userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares.

Umm, the people owning this laptop who choose Ubuntu instead of Debian
care.

> - installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does not 
> even support this (or for any other means of modifying /etc/apt/sources.list)

>From the menubar.  System --> Administration --> Synaptic Package Manager

Wait for the package manager to come up, click on Settings --> Respositories

There is an "Add CDROM" button, and you just click on it.  

(No need to run vi, or emacs, or need to understand the
/etc/apt/sources.list format.)   Seems pretty user-friendly to me.

> - /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that

Hmm, I didn't notice this problem.  When the dhcp client started
during the install process, it created the /etc/resolv.conf file for
me, and subsequent dhcp clients updated the /etc/resolv.conf file
information automatically from the DHCP serve.

> - the "root has no password and you must use sudo" sucks for many things as 
> the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su 
> programs but those cannot work).

That's a philosophical dispute, but it's easily fixed simply by
setting a root password if you really want to use a root shell.  (Or
by just doing sudo bash, of course.)  I happen to like having a root
user with a password and to su to root, so I set up my system that
way.  However, I view that as an emacs vs. vi sort of religious
dispute.

> - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong 
> dpi setting

Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of
the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically.

> - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a 
> manual setup of this file is needed

I didn't notice that problem.

> - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was
> puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not
> result in network access

I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed
by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by
default, either.  So what's your point?

- Ted


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hubert Chan]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:29:37 -0500, John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 01:19:47PM -0600, Hubert Chan wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), "Sam Morris"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
[...]
>> > How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does
>> > one install RHEL 4 on such a machine?
>> 
>> By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware
>> vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware).

> How do you get that on the install CD-ROM?

You don't.  (Sorry, I probably should have included this in my original
message.)

The RHEL 4 (and similar distributions) installer at some point asks you
if you want to load an external module.  You stick in a specially
formatted floppy, tell the installer to load the module from the floppy,
and then it loads the module and detects your hardware.

(The exact details are sketchy -- the only time I did it was several
months ago, in the middle of installing a whole bunch of new machines,
so I don't remember all the details.  But that's the basic idea.)

(Note: I'm not the administrator for those machines.  Otherwise, they'd
be running some flavour of Debian.)

FWIW, the Windows installer does a similar thing, as well.

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Matthew R. Dempsky]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 10:00:01PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> WEP works with network manager but how did you manage WPA via wpa_supplicant 
> with the GUI setup tools? It only offered WEP when I looked at it.

I have to choose ``Connect to Other Wireless Network...'' (or whatever
the option in nm-applet is) to get the WPA choices.  Not sure if this
is just because I don't have any true WPA networks, and NM is being
too smart for me, or a limitation of nm-applet.

> AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA.

It does since 0.6 (available in Dapper).


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[John Goerzen]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 01:19:47PM -0600, Hubert Chan wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), "Sam Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> said:
> > On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> >> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> >>> No support for: (The * are critical)
> >>> * SATA Hard Drives (*)
> >>> * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> >> 
> >> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of
> >> userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares.
> 
> > How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does
> > one install RHEL 4 on such a machine?
> 
> By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware
> vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware).

How do you get that on the install CD-ROM?


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Samstag 26 August 2006 23:03 schrieb Yves-Alexis Perez:
> On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 22:00 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > > Not in my experience.  I've handled all network details through
> > > Network Manager on this laptop.
> >
> > AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA.
>
> AFAIK, network manager uses wpasupplicant

Indeed, thanks for the pointer.

HS


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:01:21AM -0400, Benjamin Seidenberg wrote:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin
> > iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter
> > the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs.
> >
> > Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me.
> 
> You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card.

I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an
illegal alien.  And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be
already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can
sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing
debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot.


And, there is a number of ways to reasonably prove your identity
better than an ID.  And ID can be gotten by talking to an
absent-minded clerk, bribing the said underpaid clerk or even get a
nice blank one from Ivan -- so an ID cannot be deemed a solid proof.

Michelle, you're not a nobody.  Many people know you.  If I walked
with you to a known figure who knew you for a number of years and he
vouched for you, I would be a lot more certain than if I had seen
nothing but a smudged photo on an ID.  You can bribe or sweet-talk the
guy to fool me, but I still would call an university professor or the
like someone more trustworthy than a nameless clerk.  And I'm sure
there's a number of similar people who know you.  What would you say
about the chief of Polish chapter of FFII?  He's a long-time buddy of
mine, even though I haven't seen him for a number of years.  While
not a DD, I don't think his word would have less weight than an ID
you can get for $25.


Also, the name means little.  I don't really care if an upload was
done by a person who claims to be named "Benjamin Seidenberg", I care
that it was done by a person with a history of valid good
contributions whose prior work was checked by many people.  Whether
it was signed by "Benjamin Seidenberg" doesn't matter until I want to
pursue legal action.  I don't need your real name to appreciate your
deeds -- feeling thankful to "astronut" works as well.


It's the ownership of the key what matters, not the name attached to
it.  It's important to know that the key is yours, not that it
belongs to a "Benjamin Seidenberg".


-- 
1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
//  Never attribute to stupidity what can be
//  adequately explained by malice.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 22:00 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > Not in my experience.  I've handled all network details through
> > Network Manager on this laptop.
> 
> AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA.

AFAIK, network manager uses wpasupplicant
-- 
Yves-Alexis


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[David Nusinow]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
> > I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
> > that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
> > the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.
> 
> This sort of vague anecdotal "evidence" has been repeated over and over.
> It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with
> reporting specific problems in Debian, only "x worked out of the box in
> ubuntu but not in Debian."

Debian shipped XFree86 with its last stable release. This lacked support
for a significant number of then newer cards. Of course this sort of thing
will be remedied for Etch, for example we'll have support for intel's
unreleased 965 chip.

But this isn't simple anecdotal evidence, it's pretty clear that this
drove a huge number of users from debian. I noticed a massive flood of
people coming to #debian saying "Wow, now that Debian has X.org I can use
it again instead of Ubuntu!"[0] Even if we don't autodetect and download
the non-free X drivers, Debian will support people's video cards on newer
hardware when it's released. This, along with providing SATA support out of
the box, should go a long way towards solving this issue in the short term.

 - David Nusinow

[0] This is, of course, anecdotal evidence :-)


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Samstag 26 August 2006 21:34 schrieb Matthew R. Dempsky:
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than
> > Debian: the network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA.
>
> I recently bought a System76 laptop with Ubuntu 6.06 pre-installed,
> and Network Manager connects to my university's wireless network
> without problem.  They only use IEEE 802.1x + Dynamic WEP, but
> wpa_supplicant supports TKIP and CCMP too.

WEP works with network manager but how did you manage WPA via wpa_supplicant 
with the GUI setup tools? It only offered WEP when I looked at it.
However, weplab was just packaged to show you how useless WEP is.

> > - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA,
> > a manual setup of this file is needed
>
> Not in my experience.  I've handled all network details through
> Network Manager on this laptop.

AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA.

HS


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hubert Chan]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), "Sam Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
>> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
>>> No support for: (The * are critical)
>>> 
>>> * SATA Hard Drives (*)
>>> * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
>> 
>> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of
>> userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares.

> How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does
> one install RHEL 4 on such a machine?

By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware
vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware).

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Matthew R. Dempsky]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than Debian: 
> the 
> network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA.

I recently bought a System76 laptop with Ubuntu 6.06 pre-installed,
and Network Manager connects to my university's wireless network
without problem.  They only use IEEE 802.1x + Dynamic WEP, but
wpa_supplicant supports TKIP and CCMP too.

> - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a 
> manual setup of this file is needed

Not in my experience.  I've handled all network details through
Network Manager on this laptop.

> - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by 
> the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access

I just plugged an Ethernet cable in, and Network Manager detected it
and switched to it immediately.  I just removed it, and it switched
back to the wireless network.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 11:46:20AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:
> I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure partially 
> valid.
> 
> I really don't believe that Debian can equal itself with Ubuntu in terms 
> of user friendliness. There is so much to say about that, that I hardly 
> can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that 
> basis. I use Debian for 4 years now and my impression about it is valid, 
> because is based on facing and (if lucky) fixing problems. Many of them 
> I have happily forgotten right after fixing, but the allround impression 
> about Debian's user friendliness remains.
> 
> 
> 1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at 
> worst. Debian dosen't.

That's true, but this is improving.

Moreover, Debian tries to cater for everyone, rather than just "the
average Joe-user". We're not there yet, especially not in case of "the
average Joe-user", but personally I prefer to have a focus on more than
just one small subset of people.

> 1a, Often it seems that ideological problems put anything else aside.

There are cases where this is true, but they are more of the exception
than the rule.

This is also true for Ubuntu, BTW. They, too, separate free software
from non-free software.

> I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is
> in the state "Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may
> take some years". Well, user dosen't have the years and need things
> working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by
> downloading, compiling etc, or says "Things don't work in Debian and
> it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ".

Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to
discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios.

> Others care about ideology too, but by the time MAKE THE THINGS WORK 
> SOMEHOW as painless as possible for the end user, until the ideologists 
> say their last word.
> 
> Simple examples: Mplayer, codecs, M$ True Type fonts, Java, flash.

Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your
sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs.

Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are
less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine.
Which both have a *much* saner design, too.

True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will
download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem?

In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for
unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot
go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a
Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or
Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's
actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary.
I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here.

Do you actually have a real and founded gripe, or are you just trolling?

> 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
> either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
> thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 
> is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about 
> average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does.

I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no
Internet access currently.

However, I will add that I haven't seen this bug on the stable systems
that I run; even though that of course doesn't have to mean anything, it
is at least an indication that the bug is not everywhere, and that it
may be a problem to track it down.

> Of course that there always will be bugs. It's normal in evoluting 
> project; We are mankind and always do mistakes. However, facing them and 
> solving (or not solving) makes a picture about our priorities and goals. 
> In case of Debian, average-Joe-user for sure is not a priority; jokes aside.

Actually, our social contract shows that they are.

> 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even 
> documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, 
> and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to 
> make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically 
> install national fonts and translation packages if the user already 
> entered his location and national data.
> I use K3B and has been ready to contribute the Slovak translation. Only 
> on K3B's site I realised that translation exists. Then I have found the 
> k3b-l18n package, and whoila, K3B is localised.
> And so on.

There is an infrastructure to support a fully i18n'ed environment upon
installation. It uses language-based tasks, and the installer will
install the task of the language you've used in the installer upon
completion of the installation. If you chose to install the desktop
task, it will 

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sam Morris]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
>> No support for: (The * are critical)
>>
>>  * SATA Hard Drives (*)
>>  * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> 
> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would 
> not fit this hardware, so who cares.

How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one
install RHEL 4 on such a machine?

-- 
Sam Morris
http://robots.org.uk/

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
>> No support for: (The * are critical)
>> 
>> * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
> 
> This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of
> userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares.

The other half of userland cares.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso:
> No support for: (The * are critical)
>
>   * SATA Hard Drives (*)
>   * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)

This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would 
not fit this hardware, so who cares.

>   * IPW3945 wireless (*)
>   * 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card
>   (propietary kernel module)

And this non-free stuff is nothing to discuss about.

Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than Debian: the 
network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA.
Some things in Ubuntu are so broken that it's hard to believe. I 
just "repaired" the laptop of a friend with Ubuntu 6.06:
- installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does not 
even support this (or for any other means of modifying /etc/apt/sources.list)
- /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that
- the "root has no password and you must use sudo" sucks for many things as 
the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su 
programs but those cannot work).
Additonal problems included:
- X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong 
dpi setting
- /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a 
manual setup of this file is needed
- something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by 
the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access

Just too much stuff for the Ubuntu target group. I did not dig deeper after 
that.
Debian doesn't tell you about happy sunshine but neither does Ubuntu keep up 
its promises.

> Maybe the answer is getting modern kernels
> and modern installers should be adopted by backports.org.

That will not be enough, newer kernels require newer userland stuff.
If you do all that (kernel, apps, X, etc.) with backports, you can as well use 
Debian testing.

> The fact of the matter is that the stable
> distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and
> useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e.,
> anything sold in the last 6 months).

I agree that stable revisions could be a bit more than what they are now 
(mainly updated kernels for the installer).

HS


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Theodore Tso]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:16:53AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast
> > SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy
> > machine.  Debian stable doesn't run on it.  Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed
> 
> Out of curiousity, why not?

No support for: (The * are critical)

* SATA Hard Drives (*)
* IPW3945 wireless (*)
* Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*)
* 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card
(propietary kernel module)
* Verizon 1xEV-DO

Pretty much all of the modern hardware on the T60 is completely
unsupported by Debian; and most of the above is supported out of the
box by Unbuntu.

> It sounds, though, that your problem could be solved if we revved the
> kernel in stable (and the installer) more often.  See my message on
> -project about that.

A lot of the problems would be solved with that, yes.  Depending on
backports so you don't have to depend on antique versions of
OpenOffice, firefox, etc.  Maybe the answer is getting modern kernels
and modern installers should be adopted by backports.org.  

Or maybe backports should be considered a 1st class part of Debian; so
in addition to old-stable, stable, testing, and unstable, we could
add, "stable-useful".  The fact of the matter is that the stable
distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and
useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e.,
anything sold in the last 6 months).

But yet, we claim that our highest goals in our social contract is to
serve "our users".  Sure. and anything that stable isn't useful
for are simply not our users, but they become Ubuntu's users or
Fedora's users instead.

- Ted


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[John Goerzen]

On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 11:42:56PM -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > This sort of vague anecdotal "evidence" has been repeated over and over.
> > It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with
> > reporting specific problems in Debian, only "x worked out of the box in
> > ubuntu but not in Debian."
> 
> OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast
> SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy
> machine.  Debian stable doesn't run on it.  Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed

Out of curiousity, why not?

[ snip ]

> My brand-spanking new home file server with a a real hardware RAID
> controller (Areca) and 16 hot-swap SATA drives (6 of them currently
> populated with 500 GB SATA II drives), with two dual-core Xeon chips
> is running Ubuntu Breezy 6.06 LTS, because Ubuntu supported it out of
> the box.  Debian stable doesn't even have a chance of supporting this

[ snip ]

> How many more concrete example would you like?

That's fine, thanks ;-)

BTW, I wrote DFS[1] for just such a similar situation, so I could
easily build myself a CD suitable for installation with whatever
kernel and tools I wanted.  I originally used it for a server that was
to use LVM and a hardware RAID controller, back in the days before
stable's installer supported either LVM or that particular controller.

It sounds, though, that your problem could be solved if we revved the
kernel in stable (and the installer) more often.  See my message on
-project about that.

[1] http://people.debian.org/~jgoerzen/dfs


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Theodore Tso]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> This sort of vague anecdotal "evidence" has been repeated over and over.
> It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with
> reporting specific problems in Debian, only "x worked out of the box in
> ubuntu but not in Debian."

OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast
SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy
machine.  Debian stable doesn't run on it.  Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed
out of the box on it.  So the laptop that I run when I give
presentations at conferences says Ubuntu Breeze when I fire it up, and
not Debian.

My brand-spanking new home file server with a a real hardware RAID
controller (Areca) and 16 hot-swap SATA drives (6 of them currently
populated with 500 GB SATA II drives), with two dual-core Xeon chips
is running Ubuntu Breezy 6.06 LTS, because Ubuntu supported it out of
the box.  Debian stable doesn't even have a chance of supporting this
box.  I'm not sure if Debian etch will support it, since the Areca
RAID card is an out-of-tree (although GPL) device driver, but that's
largely irrelevant, since I'm not going to run Debian unstable on a
production file server!

How many more concrete example would you like?

- Ted

P.S.  So at the moment, I'm doing my debian development work using
some crash-and-burn machines at home, and using some debian chroots
created using debootstrap.  It would be nice if I could help doing
more dogfood testing on etch, and finding and submitting bug reports
before etch shipped --- but life is short, and Ubuntu worked out of
the box on my laptop, and it would have really difficult to figure out
how to get Debian installed onto a laptop SATA drive.  (And when I say
work, I mean including making use of a built-in wireless on a PCI
express bus that requires a driver that uses restricted firmware and a
binary-only userspace daemon.  So if people want to be pure, that's
fine, but I'm not going give up using wireless just for ideological
purity; I just won't be using a Debian supplied kernel, and once
again, Ubuntu works out of the box.  Oh well)


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Benjamin Seidenberg]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin
> iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter
> the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs.
>
> Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me.
>
>
>   

You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card.

*ducks*

Benjamin

[ For those who don't understand, read
http://blog.madduck.net/geek/2006.05.24-tr-id-at-keysigning ]





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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Hendrik Sattler]

Am Freitag 25 August 2006 12:54 schrieb Wouter Verhelst:
> Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already

I guess that those that care for the smallest possible base system (and those 
that hate initrd/initramfs) have their own kernel. My one (for a laptop) has 
an installed size of 7456 KB (not even close to 50MB).

HS


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bruce Sass]

On Fri August 25 2006 03:46, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote:
> I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure
> partially valid.

Uhm, Debian's target audience is not Joe User, never has been AFAICT.

Joe isn't usually capable of determining which MTA, web server, proxy 
server, etc., specific implementation is best for them, assuming they 
are even aware of the architecture underlying the UI they see... Debian 
assumes all of that of its users.


Since my very first read of the Social Contract, Policy papers, etc., I 
have had the impression that Debian is not a "solution", it is the 
pieces one needs to build a solution.

Taking this view explains a lot about Debian, and does so at a deeper 
level than some of the common perceptions. e.g.:

Why there are so many CDD's and derivatives, with NGOs and even 
governments basing their OS on Debian. Is it just "the best", or has it 
been designed to accommodate such use.

Why licensing which allows users to redistribute modified versions is so 
important. Are they all "free" fanatics, or would not being 
redistributable make the effort put into being easily derivable a waste 
of time.

Why there are so many different implementations of pretty much 
everything in the archive. Does Debian lack focus, or is it just not 
possible to service all the potential users with just one or two 
implementations.

Why the "learning curve" is so steep. Do Debianites want to be "elite", 
or is it simply that relatively few computer users are aware of the low 
level OS issues Debian necessarily deals with by catering to everybody.

Why "old" software is commonplace. Slow and lazy with the packaging... 
or does it just take time to get all the pieces functioning well enough 
to be an easily derivable basis, and one which changes every six months 
would be a poor choice for that use.


I agree with you 100% that Ubuntu is more focused on and better serves
Joe User, but to say that `Debian doesn't care' is as wrong as you can 
be. Common perception appears to be much as you have written, the 
reality is that Debian has done such a good job at presenting a 
necessarily complex and contradictory collection of software that Joe 
User can actually be fooled into thinking it was done for them!

I'm not saying Joe User is a fool, I am Joe everytime I "install" 
something and experience the learning curve of figuring out what it 
does and how I can use it. The Debian User's learning curve is a bit 
different though, it is one of recognizing where the needs of Joe, 
Corporate, NGO, etc. Users diverge and consequently where to look for 
the tools and tweaks needed to transform the universal OS into their 
OS. That there also needs to be tweaks at the "Arbitrary User" level 
afterwards should be no surprise and may well be unavoidable... that is 
where Ubuntu, Progeny, etc., enter the picture. The way I see it: 
distros tailored to specific types of users which are based on Debian 
are not making up for Debian's failings, they are the most natural and 
may even be the actual intended use of what Debian provides.

HTH


- Bruce


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:12:04AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen:
> > 
> > > I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB.  Most of
> > > Debian's competitors are 10 times that.
> > 
> > Ist now over 200 MByte...
> 
> No.  I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately,
> and it's still just under 100MB.  97 or so if memory serves.

Yes, but that doesn't include things like bootloaders and kernels, and
things like filesystem support tools. The reason is rather obvious;
(c)debootstrap cannot predict which kernel image will be necessary (or
if any will be necessary at all), nor can it predict which filesystem
will be used (it might be NFS, in which case you don't need an fsck but
do need nfs support packages)

Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already, and
given that most filesystem support tools require a few library packages
as well (which results in more megs), it's probably well over 100M, and
200 would not seem unlikely.

> A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down
> "server" install is over 1GB.

That, of course, is still true. And then you haven't even looked at
Solaris (as shipped by Sun), which needs a few gigabytes.

-- 
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  -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Russ Allbery]

Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system
>> for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian.  It's
>> a much more widespread problem than just a question of free
>> vs. non-free.  It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of
>> manual work by the maintainer every time the list of officially
>> supported kernels changes, and pretty much every upload goes through
>> NEW.  I think that to have a really good solution, we're going to need
>> a larger plan that includes changes to the archive management software
>> as well.
>> 
>> I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1.

> There's already work being done in that direction, please check out with
> the kernel team. AFAIK there's a "linux-modules-extra-" source package
> created to auto-build all those modules.

Ah, hm, I see that linux-modules-extra-* is depending on other source
packages.  That might work quite well.  I apparently had misunderstood how
it was going to work.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-24 11:56:21, schrieb John Goerzen:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:

> > Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
> > I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
> > that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
> > the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.
> 
> This sort of vague anecdotal "evidence" has been repeated over and over.
> It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with
> reporting specific problems in Debian, only "x worked out of the box in
> ubuntu but not in Debian."

Right and there are peoples having problems with IBM Laptops...
Some have ask me privately and furtunatly I could help to 90%.

This is why I acception tonns of SPAM in my Freenet-INBOX and not
changing all two weeks my E-Mail address which is not realy serious.

> Well, that may be, but that's not necessarily a bug in Debian.  For
> instance, for many years, the Debian installer did not support LVM, even
> though the Debian OS did.  Is that a bug (in the classic sense) in the
> Debian installer?  I'd say no, it was just a feature it didn't have.

Agreed

> We ship a lot of modules as source in Debian -- lirc, for instance, but
> you can also find source modules for things like nvidia in contrib or
> non-free.  Building binaries from source modules is trivial but
> non-obvious to someone that is not a Linux admin.  Perhaps that could be
> improved, but it doesn't mean that Debian supports less hardware, only
> that its support may appear in a different manner.

Right and this is exactly I have told different peoples.
Sinc we are using the same Linux as Ubuntu or other
Distributions we have generaly the same Hardware support.

> Hardware choice is important to me.  I don't want my software selection
> to lock me into one or two hardware platforms -- I want to be able to
> buy an Arm, Sparc, Alpha, PowerPC, or whatever device and put my chosen
> software on it if I so desire.

;-)

Greetings and nice weekend
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-08-24 11:12:04, schrieb John Goerzen:
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen:
> > 
> > > I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB.  Most of
> > > Debian's competitors are 10 times that.
> > 
> > Ist now over 200 MByte...
> 
> No.  I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately,
> and it's still just under 100MB.  97 or so if memory serves.
> 
> A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down
> "server" install is over 1GB.

Do you know, WHY I use Debian?

In 03/1999 Windows NT 4.0 Server had leaved me and I had to choose a
new Operating System, BSD or Linux...

The first thing I needed was a Router...

=> LRP (The Linux Router Project)

Realy nice and Floppy based and it was working from the first day with
my 2 MBit Cable Modem in Strasbourg.

Then a Workstation... Hmmm, have found the DLD (Deutsche Linux
Distribution) version 5.0 and the 6.0 BUT the Workstation Setup had
tried to install over 800 MByte of stuff on my little K6/200...
Even my try to strip the installation failed...

Later DLD was sold by RedHat

Then I was interested HOW LRP was working and I found out, IT'S Debian
2.1 codname Slink...

OK downloaded the 7 Floppies (Rescue, driver and 5x Base)!

Wow it worked from scratch, my 3c509 and 3c905 are recognized immediatly

After playing arround and leard HOW DIFFICULT it is to find good
documentation (at this time) I have found a CD Seller (Heiko Schlitterman)
where I have bought the 4 CD's (2 bin + 2 src)

OK, happy I am, tried to install the rest of the System...

Oops... 1,6 Gbyte - a little bit to much.

Thanks to apt-cache and ap-get... and I have leaned very fast how to
install light Systems...

I have installed one Package after one... x-window-system, fvwm, netscape
StarOffice 5.2, ...

Then I have encountered that I have a full blown System of less then
500 MByte...

And the other Distribution hat tried to install Gimicks I necer used
under WfW 3.11 and Win NT 4.0 Server/Workstation

Today I have a full blown Workstation consuming arround 1.1 GByte
including Mozilla and OpenOffice in 6 languages and my fvwm supporting
curently 11 languages (Translated my self my live partner and friends)

Debian is great !  --  and I hope it will stay like this.

Since I am working with underdeveloped countries It is NOT possible for
me, using Live-CD's, Knoppix, Gnoppix or *ubuntu.  They are to heavy.

I create full customized Install CD's for Computers from 200MHz to 500Mhz
including Workststions, Servers, ...  all packages fit on a singel CD.

Thanks to ALL Debian Developers, Debian Maintainers and Voluters.

Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin
iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter
the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs.

Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me.

Thanks and Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Mgr. Peter Tuharsky]

I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure partially 
valid.


I really don't believe that Debian can equal itself with Ubuntu in terms 
of user friendliness. There is so much to say about that, that I hardly 
can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that 
basis. I use Debian for 4 years now and my impression about it is valid, 
because is based on facing and (if lucky) fixing problems. Many of them 
I have happily forgotten right after fixing, but the allround impression 
about Debian's user friendliness remains.



1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at 
worst. Debian dosen't.


1a, Often it seems that ideological problems put anything else aside. I 
don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in 
the state "Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take 
some years". Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, 
so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, 
compiling etc, or says "Things don't work in Debian and it's too 
difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ".


Others care about ideology too, but by the time MAKE THE THINGS WORK 
SOMEHOW as painless as possible for the end user, until the ideologists 
say their last word.


Simple examples: Mplayer, codecs, M$ True Type fonts, Java, flash.


1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working 
either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months 
thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian 
is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about 
average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does.


Of course that there always will be bugs. It's normal in evoluting 
project; We are mankind and always do mistakes. However, facing them and 
solving (or not solving) makes a picture about our priorities and goals. 
In case of Debian, average-Joe-user for sure is not a priority; jokes aside.



1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even 
documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, 
and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to 
make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically 
install national fonts and translation packages if the user already 
entered his location and national data.
I use K3B and has been ready to contribute the Slovak translation. Only 
on K3B's site I realised that translation exists. Then I have found the 
k3b-l18n package, and whoila, K3B is localised.

And so on.


2, The current software gets into main distribution too slowly, too too 
slowly. Yes, of course, stability, security..


Think about, say, Mozilla Firefox. We keep in repository some 1.0.3 
version? (I don't really know, I prefer using current stable release, 
this time 1.5.0.6)


I doubt that mozilla.org supports either way that ancient version. Is it 
even possible to keep track with _all_ security and stability updates 
and backport them to that version? I really doubt.


I can imagine, that the Debian's 1.0.3 version is no way more secure nor 
stable than standard 1.5.0.6.


We should, for certain kinds of software, shorten the release cycle to, 
say, 6 months. Debian can afford the luxury of keeping the basic system 
infrastructure for 18 months, however the desktop software grows very 
fast, user's often depend on its functionality (OpenOffice.org import 
capabilities to mention some), and it's nearly impossible to maintain 
that old software in meaningful way. And who will ever use that ancient 
versions at the end.. Especially painful in the end time of release's 
lifecycle.



3, Desktop functionality

Just try to compare, what do we offer with standard Debian desktop and 
how much of that really works at the end, and how much does Ubuntu 
offer. Try to do some real-world testing; ask the average-Joe-user. Just 
put him in front of standard Debian 3.1 Sarge desktop after 
installation, and Ubuntu 6.06 desktop right after installation, without 
any admin's actions. Let him perform his routine tasks: setting up the 
mailbox, Internet, printer, browse, play a flash game, write a document 
and print it, play a video or music. Try it Yourself and try to avoid 
any non-straightforward actions. Avoid "cheating" by using 
administrator's skills. Try to use only "what the desktop offers", don't 
even open the console. You will be surprised.



Conclusion:
Debian lacks in the means of propagation, yes.
Debian much more lacks the focus on average desktop user.


Maybe, Etch will bring some fresh air in here. However, we cannot 
compare the testing versions:
First, many things can change until it becomes stable. Remember the 
Vista and advertised features in the past :o)
Second, Etch is hardly installable for average-Joe-user and I doubt it 
is useful enough in its current state. To be more polite, let's say, 
that Joe should have been very lucky if he wa

Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Russ Allbery wrote:
> We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system
> for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian.  It's a
> much more widespread problem than just a question of free vs. non-free.
> It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of manual work by the
> maintainer every time the list of officially supported kernels changes,
> and pretty much every upload goes through NEW.  I think that to have a
> really good solution, we're going to need a larger plan that includes
> changes to the archive management software as well.
> 
> I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1.

There's already work being done in that direction, please check out with
the kernel team. AFAIK there's a "linux-modules-extra-" source package created 
to
auto-build all those modules.

And it's also something that I would love to see completed sooner rather
than later. I've hoping for something like that for years. 

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Russ Allbery]

Steinar H Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:26:04PM -0300, Fabricio aybabtu Cannini wrote:

>> I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder, can't
>> it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version
>> ?

> Yes, you could in theory compile a kernel module package from another
> package's postinst, but:

>  1. You would have to guarantee the right kernel headers are installed at the
> time. (You can't install them either, see the next point.)
>  2. You cannot install it, as you can't call dpkg from a postinst script,
> and dpkg does not yet have any “trigger” functionality that would run
> afterwards.

There's a more fundamental problem here, which is that we're not Gentoo.
There's no reason why a Debian system should have to have a compiler
installed.  We have buildd farms to do that work for our users.  I'd
really like to find a way where that applies to kernel modules as well
without the pain that we have right now.

Unfortunately, while I appreciate people working on this problem, creating
a combined package of out-of-tree kernel modules isn't really a solution.
Some out-of-tree kernel modules are large and complex and can't easily
just be dropped into that sort of shared tree.

What we need is some way of correctly expressing the kernel module class
of packages in the archive software, with automatic removal of packages
for old versions of the kernel, automatic auto-building of the source
package against new versions of the kernel when they appear (and new
variants), and a way of handling those packages that doesn't mean source
changes and a trip through NEW every time the list of kernel variants
changes.  This isn't easy, which is why it hasn't been done yet, but it's
really the right approach.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Fabricio \"aybabtu\" Cannini]

Em Quinta 24 Agosto 2006 19:37, Steinar H. Gunderson escreveu:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:26:04PM -0300, Fabricio aybabtu Cannini wrote:
> > I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder,
> > can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel
> > version ?
>
> Yes, you could in theory compile a kernel module package from another
> package's postinst, but:

Perhaps using dependencies or /etc/apt/preferences ?

>  1. You would have to guarantee the right kernel headers are installed at
> the time. (You can't install them either, see the next point.)
>  2. You cannot install it, as you can't call dpkg from a postinst script,
> and dpkg does not yet have any “trigger” functionality that would run
> afterwards.

Like, if you have a -src package, can't you determinate that the kernel to be 
installed "will work" with it by dependencies ? ( in this case matching the 
exact kernel headers|source version )

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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Rudy Godoy]

El día 24/08/2006 a 11:25 Michelle Konzack escribió...

> Am 2006-07-28 13:35:30, schrieb Katrina Jackson:
> 
> > You say Ubuntu has better publicity, which it does.  But why is this the
> > case?  I know Mark has more money, but since you have so many programmers,
> 
> He is Miliardaire (TV interview and his own words).
> 
> > and seem so passionate about your OS, why aren't you as successful getting
> > publicity?  I'm not accusing anyone.  I guess I just really would like to
> > know:
> 
> Do we need publicity of tens of million Euros?
> 
> > A.)  Could Debian do anything to get better publicity and change people's
> > perceptions.  (For instance, if Debian is so more "well build" then Ubuntu
> > why don't the press keep mentioning this?
> 
> Do you want to pay the making of such publicity?
> Ubuntu/Canonical is commercial while Debian is a volunter
> organization.

I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than
budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to
use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they
tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we
are not good on advertise our OS.

We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to
get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist,
corporate employee, student, doctor, etc.

(I didn't mention computer savy people since we are well known there,
so why advertise for them, if we have an important "market share" on
that segment?).

That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people
more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for
those who already in the computing area.
I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great.

> 
> > B.)  Why hasn't more been done?  Why isn't there any major reports by like
> > PC World which say "Ubuntu is top 100 products, but man if you want a better
> > distro, more well built etc.. you should check out Debian.
> 
> Because Ubunto pay for ranking?  ;-)

No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and
not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and
good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell
ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to
others too!

regards

-- 
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Steinar H. Gunderson]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:26:04PM -0300, Fabricio aybabtu Cannini wrote:
> I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder,
> can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version ?

Yes, you could in theory compile a kernel module package from another
package's postinst, but:

 1. You would have to guarantee the right kernel headers are installed at the
time. (You can't install them either, see the next point.)
 2. You cannot install it, as you can't call dpkg from a postinst script,
and dpkg does not yet have any “trigger” functionality that would run
afterwards.

/* Steinar */
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Fabricio \"aybabtu\" Cannini]

Em Quinta 24 Agosto 2006 18:08, Bastian Venthur escreveu:

Hi!

> Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> > Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install
> >> them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown
> >> Linux admins?
> >
> > Are you aware of module-assistant?
>
> module-assistant is cool, if you know that it exists (which you can't
> assume for the average user, i think) and have the guts to actually use
> it :)
>
> But since you mention it, module-assistant is a good example for the
> "hardware support" thing I mentioned before: it might not sound too
> complicated for us to re-run it every time aptitude bumped our kernel
> versions, but I think the average user, expects something like his to
> happen automatically.

I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder,
can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version ?


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Russ Allbery]

Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
>> Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>>> I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to
>>> install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not
>>> full blown Linux admins?

>> Are you aware of module-assistant?

> Nope, but I was going off Bastian's comment that a lot of modules get
> shipped as source and need to be compiled. I use Ubuntu myself (plain
> Debian as a dev system and test system) so I already have the modules I
> need.

Note that Ubuntu doesn't build all the kernel modules either; Ubuntu users
have to build their own kernel modules for OpenAFS, for instance, just
like Debian users do.

We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system
for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian.  It's a
much more widespread problem than just a question of free vs. non-free.
It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of manual work by the
maintainer every time the list of officially supported kernels changes,
and pretty much every upload goes through NEW.  I think that to have a
really good solution, we're going to need a larger plan that includes
changes to the archive management software as well.

I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sander Marechal]

Bastian Venthur wrote:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
>> Hello Katrina,
>>
>> Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson:
>>
>>> PS.  Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better
>>> hardware support I think most people would be happy.  Hardware supported by
>>> Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now.
>> Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support
>> which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
>> on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
>> get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.
> 
> Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
> I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
> that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
> the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.

Ubuntu ships with some restricted modules for better hardware support.
To be exact (from synaptic):

 - madwifi (Atheros)
 - fglrx (ATI)
 - nvidia
 - fcdsl2, fcdslsl, fcdslslusb, fcdslusb, fcdslusb2, fcpci,
   fcpcmcia, fcpcmcia_cs (AVM ISDN)

I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install
them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown
Linux admins?

-- 
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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install
> them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown
> Linux admins?

Are you aware of module-assistant?

-- 
Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org)
Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bastian Venthur]

Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install
>> them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown
>> Linux admins?
> 
> Are you aware of module-assistant?

module-assistant is cool, if you know that it exists (which you can't
assume for the average user, i think) and have the guts to actually use
it :)

But since you mention it, module-assistant is a good example for the
"hardware support" thing I mentioned before: it might not sound too
complicated for us to re-run it every time aptitude bumped our kernel
versions, but I think the average user, expects something like his to
happen automatically.


Cheers,

Bastian

-- 
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http://venthur.de


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Sander Marechal]

Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Sander Marechal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install
>> them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown
>> Linux admins?
> 
> Are you aware of module-assistant?

Nope, but I was going off Bastian's comment that a lot of modules get
shipped as source and need to be compiled. I use Ubuntu myself (plain
Debian as a dev system and test system) so I already have the modules I
need.

-- 
Sander Marechal
http://www.gnome-hearts.org/


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:29:22PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> John Goerzen wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> >>> which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
> >>> on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
> >>> get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.
> >> Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
> >> I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
> >> that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
> >> the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.
> 
> > So it all depends on your perspective.  If you narrow your perspective
> > to "ia32 laptop hardware", perhaps Ubuntu supports more.  If you expand
> > it, I would say Debian supports more.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you, off course Debian supports more hardware
> than Ubuntu. But that was not the point, Michelle claimed that hardware
> support depends entirely on the kernel, which is IMHO only one half of
> the truth. The end user usually understands under "hardware support",
> how well the system recognizes hardware and it's ability to get it
> working with a minimum of user interaction required. And from what I've
> heard Ubuntu seems to be ahead of Debian at this point.

My personal opinion about Ubuntu stable vs Debian stable:
* newer kernels
* nearly completely untested

In other words, Ubuntu _is_ ahead of Debian, both in the positive and
negative sense.  It releases a lot more often, so it obviously features more
recent kernels.  On the other hand, Ubuntu strongly suffers from the
tendency to include all the newest unstable doodads, so the path:

Ubuntu -> experimental -> unstable -> stable

is trodden often these days.  In the term of hardware drivers, people put
very little effort into stabilizing them once they appear to be working, so
for ia32 hardware coverage, Ubuntu does fare better on the average.  This
doesn't excuse them from shipping buggy drivers, which they do.


You can choose between a stable, solid distribution that lacks the newest
trinkets and something on the cutting edges that explodes at touch.  Testing
things takes time, and this is exactly what Debian does.  Is the choice
between Debian and Ubuntu a bad thing?

-- 
1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
//  Never attribute to stupidity what can be
//  adequately explained by malice.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bastian Venthur]

John Goerzen wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
>>> which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
>>> on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
>>> get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.
>> Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
>> I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
>> that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
>> the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.


> So it all depends on your perspective.  If you narrow your perspective
> to "ia32 laptop hardware", perhaps Ubuntu supports more.  If you expand
> it, I would say Debian supports more.

I absolutely agree with you, off course Debian supports more hardware
than Ubuntu. But that was not the point, Michelle claimed that hardware
support depends entirely on the kernel, which is IMHO only one half of
the truth. The end user usually understands under "hardware support",
how well the system recognizes hardware and it's ability to get it
working with a minimum of user interaction required. And from what I've
heard Ubuntu seems to be ahead of Debian at this point.

Again, I never used Ubuntu myself, but some friends of mine did, and
they claim Ubuntu has the best "hardware support" of all distros they
tested (mostly Suse and Debian).


Cheers,

Bastian


-- 
Bastian Venthur
http://venthur.de


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[John Goerzen]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> > which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
> > on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
> > get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.
> 
> Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
> I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
> that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
> the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.

This sort of vague anecdotal "evidence" has been repeated over and over.
It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with
reporting specific problems in Debian, only "x worked out of the box in
ubuntu but not in Debian."

Well, that may be, but that's not necessarily a bug in Debian.  For
instance, for many years, the Debian installer did not support LVM, even
though the Debian OS did.  Is that a bug (in the classic sense) in the
Debian installer?  I'd say no, it was just a feature it didn't have.

We ship a lot of modules as source in Debian -- lirc, for instance, but
you can also find source modules for things like nvidia in contrib or
non-free.  Building binaries from source modules is trivial but
non-obvious to someone that is not a Linux admin.  Perhaps that could be
improved, but it doesn't mean that Debian supports less hardware, only
that its support may appear in a different manner.

(I haven't used Ubuntu, so I don't know if this is the problem or not)

BTW, there is a strong case to be made that Debian supports far more
hardware than Ubuntu simply because ports of Ubuntu are sadly deficient.
That is one reason I have never turned to Ubuntu.  I can't run it on my
Alpha, I couldn't have run it on my Zaurus (arm) like I did with Debian,
etc.

Hardware choice is important to me.  I don't want my software selection
to lock me into one or two hardware platforms -- I want to be able to
buy an Arm, Sparc, Alpha, PowerPC, or whatever device and put my chosen
software on it if I so desire.

So it all depends on your perspective.  If you narrow your perspective
to "ia32 laptop hardware", perhaps Ubuntu supports more.  If you expand
it, I would say Debian supports more.

-- John


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Bastian Venthur]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello Katrina,
> 
> Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson:
> 
>> PS.  Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better
>> hardware support I think most people would be happy.  Hardware supported by
>> Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now.
> 
> Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support
> which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
> on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
> get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.

Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian?
I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming
that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of
the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian.

> 
> Note:   I am using since MANY years IBM Laptops (760ED, R40,
> T72) and I have never had problems to get it running
> since Debian 2.2 codename Potato.

Err, thanks for this useful background info. Hope you know that IBM is
not the only company building laptops...


Cheers,

Bastian

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http://venthur.de


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[John Goerzen]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen:
> 
> > I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB.  Most of
> > Debian's competitors are 10 times that.
> 
> Ist now over 200 MByte...

No.  I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately,
and it's still just under 100MB.  97 or so if memory serves.

A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down
"server" install is over 1GB.


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2006-07-28 13:35:30, schrieb Katrina Jackson:

> You say Ubuntu has better publicity, which it does.  But why is this the
> case?  I know Mark has more money, but since you have so many programmers,

He is Miliardaire (TV interview and his own words).

> and seem so passionate about your OS, why aren't you as successful getting
> publicity?  I'm not accusing anyone.  I guess I just really would like to
> know:

Do we need publicity of tens of million Euros?

> A.)  Could Debian do anything to get better publicity and change people's
> perceptions.  (For instance, if Debian is so more "well build" then Ubuntu
> why don't the press keep mentioning this?

Do you want to pay the making of such publicity?
Ubuntu/Canonical is commercial while Debian is a volunter organization.

> B.)  Why hasn't more been done?  Why isn't there any major reports by like
> PC World which say "Ubuntu is top 100 products, but man if you want a better
> distro, more well built etc.. you should check out Debian.

Because Ubunto pay for ranking?  ;-)

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Katrina,

Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson:

> PS.  Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better
> hardware support I think most people would be happy.  Hardware supported by
> Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now.

Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support
which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend
on the support of the hardware manufacturer.  If you want to
get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer.

Note:   I am using since MANY years IBM Laptops (760ED, R40,
T72) and I have never had problems to get it running
since Debian 2.2 codename Potato.

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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