Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:43:51AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: (for reference, I have commit access to dpkg, apt, and debbugs. this can arguably be more important than accepting new packages into debian, as doing something wrong with the above is very visible; ftpmaster is more of a hidden thing) Spoken like a man who has never accidentally deleted an architecture :-) Richard Braakman
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:45:09 +1100, Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-11-13 05:00]: As for the DAM, i wander why an AM racommends an applicant, but the DAM does not accept him. What does this mean? Is AM role relevant or in effect DAM is the real one who decides? If the latter, why haveing AM? Of course the DAM is the one who makes the decision; after all, he's the only one with the authority to make the decision (read the constitution). The AM prepares a report which the DAM uses to form a decision, but he doesn't necessarily have to form the same conclusions as the AM. Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden. As far the DAM issue goes: I find it necessary to reject people. But if, we have to do so in an acceptable time spam. Having people wait for DAM approval for months is simply bad. For ftpmaster, rejecting a package with try again, I might like it the next time, or a colleague might is remarkably bad. As you can see, this has nothing to deal with popular or unpopular decision. Right, just take Eray as an example (and note that the NM committee agreed 100% with the DAM's decision; yet the DAM got all the blame). How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular updates about the state of affairs? Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:02:26 +1100, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look on the bright side, having someone refer to your email as crap is better than being called a nerd at school, which I think happened to most people on this list and probably happened to you. ;) Actually, I have always seen that as a compliment and have reacted with pointing out that is was Murray Bozinski, the uber-nerd, who ended up with all the women. Hey, Riptide was fun back then. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
[ I'm subscribed: please avoid to Cc me ] Hi Russel, On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 12:09:43PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy people joining. The number of people who have been rejected is small. The number of people who are good coders who could contribute to Debian if they chose is much larger. This is a matter of opinion: is my opinion that motivation is more important than skills: enthusiasts, and motivated people are ready to learn and willed to bring the best, hence to be good coders. People who already are good coders might not be so interested and might not want to bring the same quality. Anyway, we must (because we can), let good coders in, and reject not motivated people. I propose to move AM/DAM[1] reports to a public list with a private archive. Anyone must be able to know what's going on in the _entire_ NM process by subscribing the list. At the same time it's reasonable to nicely handle rejection by not letting reports be publically browsable: any one willing to have old information for the archive must ask a Debian member [2]. ciao, [1] This means that all mails sent by DAM, must be also sent to the list. [2] I know that people myght archive this list anyway, but we must trust our users as they trust us. Disclaimers may be added to the end of the each essage. -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:09:39PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And a number of other people, also at various levels of Debian, like James, and respect the work he has put in. The point? Later... There must be somthing true in it, I think you really need to examine your understanding of causation. Lots of people hold a view, so it must be true? I might have translated an Italian expression in english (this might not have the same meaning), but i meant that there maust be something in the entire issue that is true/matter of fact/source of the issue. I did not ment that the entire issue is true. If people don't like James as DAM, i did not meant that James is bad, but somthing bad happened, while he was representing Debian. When something like that happen i (we?) can't for sure defend or blame James, because one is more driven by the good things heared, the other is driven by people saying bad things. And what about the other people that Like James? Can they too not be wrong? There must be something true in this too: for example he did something that people liked a lot (it's all but hard to figure what). Now It's true that i started this short mail exchange thinking of James haveing dnoe yet another ... from elmo: some one sayed it's not. May be. If we focus on open structure, we must be open not only in users - developers direction but olso developers - developers (ftpmasters and keyring), and developers - almost-developers (da-manager). ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-11-13 08:00]: Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden. AFAICT, i never sow this to happen, but if you say so i take it for sure The guidelines are outlined very clearly, see http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2003/debian-newmaint-200310/msg1.html (but i'd now like to have an example, just out of curiosity). It hasn't happend yet. You have to understand that rejections at the DAM stage are quite rare; most applications are rejected at the AM stage (and most of them because the applicants don't have enough time or interest, not because of philosophical or technical problems). Indeed you're right. To me we sohuld make things more open. Let's make da-manager a mailing list (debian-dam?) with archive AM reports contain sensitive information (such as e.g. photo IDs, although those fortunately not as much any more); hence, this is a bad idea. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-11-13 11:23]: That's correct, but there still are unclear point in this workflow. The problem is that a new complain pops up, this is yet another discussion with no backlog, so i've to build my opinion from what happened in the past. The past was not so happy with James (i still can't say that now is not like before). So what's exactly the problem you're trying to solve? The da-manager alias is archived and if a complain[sic] pops up someone can surely get access to the archive to see what happened. Although, if the complaint is a lack of response, you surely wouldn't find anything in the archive, would you? Anyway, I think you should come back when you have a problem you want to solve. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:53:42PM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: It hasn't happend yet. You have to understand that rejections at the DAM stage are quite rare; most applications are rejected at the AM stage (and most of them because the applicants don't have enough time or interest, not because of philosophical or technical problems). I understand, but they happen, and i think this to be a not-so-open point in our open structure. DAM discussion with applicants (and vice-versa) should be open for reading (as well as discussion with keyring and ftpmasters, archived or not archived). Indeed there is the issues about rejection being public, which should be also covered. It makes sense to me that poeple being rejected (at any level) would not like this to be known. In another mail you also say: So what's exactly the problem you're trying to solve? The da-manager alias is archived and if a complain[sic] pops up someone can surely get access to the archive to see what happened. Although, if the complaint is a lack of response, you surely wouldn't find anything in the archive, would you? But if i do not a good job anyone can read my bug reports (actually there are a lot of people reading reports to my packages); if i do not reply to reports, fix bugs, be active for a while, i can become MIA, my packages be orphaned and eventually i can resign (or be forced to). On my side (a simple maintainer) evrything i do is under control, and open: people on some keypoints in Debian structure do not have the same treatment. Not being as open as the rest of Debian is one of the reasons they are falmed. Please, I don't want people NMUing keyring/ftpmasters/dam job. The concept is indeed the same. Of course if the do not reply mails i would not find anything, but being subscribed i could read directly what happen, or be aware of the fact that nothing happens. Haveing a list for DAM does not makes sense? Make DAM discuss _evrythig_ or be publically contacted (for example about status reporting) on -newmaint. Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does not mean i trust your delegates. I'd like to know what they do, when they do something for Debian. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 09:41, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:09:39PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And what about the other people that Like James? Can they too not be wrong? There must be something true in this too: for example he did something that people liked a lot (it's all but hard to figure what). Yup, he does. He manages to somehow survive a very difficult set of jobs while retaining our repsect and being one of the few people most of us would trust to do them. Plus he's wuverly and stuff. Scott -- Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 05:00:37AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: Do we want to talk about keyring? I'm glad you want to. I lost my GPG key a few days ago due to a RAID disaster, and got Herbert Xu to send a message to keyring-maint on my behalf (as outlined in the Replacing Keys document URL: http://keyring.debian.org/replacing_keys.html, and recieved a reply from James in about 12 hours, saying that my new key was in keyring. I have nothing but praise for James, and the work he does for Debian. Cheers, -- Steve I've lost my sig!
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-11-14 05:30]: I understand, but they happen, and i think this to be a not-so-open point in our open structure. Yes, that's true but there might be a point in that. I also don't have access to the discussions or archives of the security team, the system admins, etc. And perhaps that's because they discuss sensitive information from time to time? In fact, I also don't see what people send to [EMAIL PROTECTED] And since you surely use your Debian address only for Debian, it should be handled in a transparent fashion? After all, you might become inactive and not every communication might be achieved in your bug reports. Indeed there is the issues about rejection being public, which should be also covered. Yes, this is true. We never really reached a conclusion on this, I think. and open: people on some keypoints in Debian structure do not have the same treatment. Yes, it's a shame, but it's just a fact of life that not everything can be 100% open. As to the DAM discussion being available to everyone, I refer you to thread on -private a few weeks ago. I'm sure some people would disagree with their personal information being posted all around. Of course if the do not reply mails i would not find anything, but being subscribed i could read directly what happen, or be aware of the fact that nothing happens. In the case of keyring and DAM in the past, we were well aware that nothing happened even without seeing the archives. ;-) Gladly, the situation has changed. Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all. I try to be very open and approachable. But in some cases it just doesn't make sense. And I don't see the problem here; if you see a _concrete_ problem, please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, afact both keyring and DAM seem to be running fairly smoothly at the moment. Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does FWIW, I'm not speaking as DPL at the moment; I use [EMAIL PROTECTED] in From: to indicate when I do. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:48:40AM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Yes, this is true. We never really reached a conclusion on this, I think. This might be moved to -newmaint. [...] Yes, it's a shame, but it's just a fact of life that not everything can be 100% open. As to the DAM discussion being available to [...] Ok, i see the point of private stuff. In the case of keyring and DAM in the past, we were well aware that nothing happened even without seeing the archives. ;-) Gladly, the situation has changed. [...] Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all. I try to be very open and approachable. But in some cases it just doesn't make sense. Let's be positive thinking: i like it. This mean that we suppose anything to go on in the best way in the future, we will never face again these problems with DAM or keyring or whatever internal Debian structure because things changed. This makes any issues here irrilevant. Thinking to a solution for a 100% transparent structure would be a waste of time. We are supposed to accept this for paceful living, because we trust the good changes or perheps because delegates are choosen from the DPL (person which we are supposed to trust). I think it won't stand for long. In any case, since structure is not so open and it's not worth of changing, complains about it should not be sent on -devel, because we can't do anything in almost all the cases (not to mention -private which can't be reached by anyone)... And I don't see the problem here; if you see a _concrete_ problem, please mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] And here i understand that we should redirect any attempt to flame^Wcomplain any one in Debian key-points to [EMAIL PROTECTED], assuming people to think they have _concrete_ problems (really reasonable; i suppose it already happened in some way). This is OT here. If you think you have a problem with Debian structure, you should speak with [EMAIL PROTECTED] will cut any thread short. I supose DPL should not complain about this, because, after all, he choosed them. I sow a problem, but i was told to live with it: I'll remember it, and go on. Trust is not a transitive property: i trusted you as DPL, this does FWIW, I'm not speaking as DPL at the moment; I use [EMAIL PROTECTED] in From: to indicate when I do. Oh, well, sorry. I did not ment to write to you as the DPL, but you know... it happens that you are :) I can rewrite my sentence as I trust the DPL, this..., and it would have the same meaning. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:28:16AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular updates about the state of affairs? I don't know what Eray received via private mail, but he certainly kept the rest of debian-devel up-to-date on the process by complaining loudly every other day. -- - mdz
[OT] Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Look, I'm not against being transparent; not at all. I try to be very open and approachable. But in some cases it just doesn't make sense. Now, why'd you have to go and mention Chewbacca?
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:14:18AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, That's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with criticizing James for what he actually does, or fails to do, but widespread grumbling proves nothing in and of itself. No, there need not be anything true in it. If you hang around the right political conservatives in the U.S., you'll hear widespread grumbling (and worse), that failure to ram the Ten Commandments down everyone's throat, and engage in convocational prayers to the Christian God at every gathering of more than 3 people will inexorably lead to the destruction of Western Civilization. (Robert Bork called it slouching towards Gamorrah, and wrote a book with that title spewing this sort of drivel). But these political conservatives, as in so many other things, are full of shit. Therefore, widespread grumbling doesn't make something true. At best it means the subject deserves closer scrutiny to see what people are really grumbling about, and why. If you don't like the way someone is doing something, have the decency to cite specific examples. If they're really making a lot of mistakes, this should not require much time to research. -- G. Branden Robinson| Psychology is really biology. Debian GNU/Linux | Biology is really chemistry. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Chemistry is really physics. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | Physics is really math. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
* Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [031114 17:55]: On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 08:28:16AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: How long did Eray wait for formal rejection? Did he receive regular updates about the state of affairs? I don't know what Eray received via private mail, but he certainly kept the rest of debian-devel up-to-date on the process by complaining loudly every other day. From the mails I received from Eray, he had till the very last moment the impression that he'll be accepted if he just find five sponsors (and that the debian cabal always pissed of the fifth). However, this was Eray, so I don't know whether he realised what was written to him. ;) And: Eray is _the_ example of a rejection where I would've liked to be informed of it. (Though it was not necessary, because Eray did that himself after the rejection - but in some cases it could happen to someone with at least some clue. And I don't really see why it is more worse to publish a rejection by DAM, than those by the AM. The last ones _are_ published at the moment.) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 12:09:43PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy people joining. The number of people who have been rejected is small. The number of people who are good coders who could contribute to Debian if they chose is much larger. The number of people who are useless idiots is several orders of magnitude larger still. Our current process is moderately effective at keeping most of them out. We don't have much of a problem with these people joining *because* our process is the way it is. It is flawed to suggest that this means we wouldn't have one if it were easier. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 03:41:14AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: There must be somthing true in it, I think you really need to examine your understanding of causation. Lots of people hold a view, so it must be true? I might have translated an Italian expression in english (this might not have the same meaning), but i meant that there maust be something in the entire issue that is true/matter of fact/source of the issue. I did not ment that the entire issue is true. If people don't like James as DAM, i did not meant that James is bad, but somthing bad happened, while he was representing Debian. When something like that happen i (we?) can't for sure defend or blame James, because one is more driven by the good things heared, the other is driven by people saying bad things. It is invalid to go from: People object to the way the DAM does things to: People don't like James as DAM without any evidence or rationale that their objections are related to him specifically. That aside, I would be very worried if there weren't any people objecting to the DAM. That would indicate he's letting people get away with too much. This means it's useless as a measure of problems. So, I find both your argument and your interpretation of its conclusion to be entirely without merit. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:08:11AM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: Remember that this process has to scale to dozens of new packages per day. It should be optimized for the common case. Know your tools. -- Rico -mc- Gloeckner | 1024D/61F05B8C | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ukeer.de |RICO-RIPE | sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] == mv ~/.signature http://www.ukeer.de/signature.html ==
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. We might repeat the same fodder with the same mails, and write the same mails with with the same words: perheps we use the wrong words, or simply we still use the rude words. I see most people still not understanding that we read mails: we don't see faces, we don't looks each other in the eyes. Reading mails is differen from speaking face to face. You can't write anything in any way on mails: you must be careful. Most of you (hey James, you too) simply don't care. Deal with other people the same way you'd like to be dealt with. To say it shortly: if a lot of people don't like you, thay can't all be wrong about you (and believe me, there are really a lot). ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:08:11AM +0200, Richard Braakman wrote: I think rejecting it during this process of deliberation is better than letting it sit there. A rejection alerts the maintainer that there's something wrong with the package. In most cases, the maintainer will agree and fix the package, so that it's no longer borderline and It also helps avoid periods where things are sitting in limbo (never good for transparency) and puts the onus for driving the process forward onto the maintainer (who is presumably more motivated to deal with things than a ftpmaster who's not convinced a package should go into the archive). -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:14:18AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. A lot of people believe that Elvis still is alive, a lot of people used to believe in flogiston rather than oxygen, a lot of people knew that that world was flat... The list goes on for ages. Face it, that a lot of people have strong feelings about something just doesn't make it true; we have war, religion and modern financial theory as evidence for this. As for James: if you are in a position where you decide who's to go in and who's not (as the DAM), and to decide _what_ goes in and what doesn't (as an FTP-master), you must: a.) Expect, and be able to brush off, a lot of shit b.) Be able to stand firm and not change your opinion just becuase of public pressure, if you're confident that your choice was based on correct criteria the first time around James seems to meet both of these criteria, something I really respect him for. Imagine having one of all of those who constantly whine about his actions take his place... Yes, things might progress in a higher tempo for a while, but sure as not they'd either collapse because of the mental pressure, or cave in to the demands from everyone and let everything _including_ the kitchen-sink into the archives and let everyone's applications through. Sure, we'd get even more packages (hooray! Another CD to add to the eleven or so we already have...), and more maintainers, but at what cost? [snip] Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. [snip] To say it shortly: if a lot of people don't like you, thay can't all be wrong about you (and believe me, there are really a lot). Sorry, but this is crap. James is doing multiple jobs, several of which are just about guaranteed to draw criticism and lots of people not liking him. That's going to be part of the job when you're the person who says no.. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky, Tongue-tied twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:23:08AM +0100, David Weinehall wrote: A lot of people believe that Elvis still is alive, a lot of people used to believe in flogiston rather than oxygen, a lot of people knew that that world was flat... The list goes on for ages. Face it, that a lot of people have strong feelings about something just doesn't make it true; we have war, religion and modern financial theory as evidence for this. I've nothing to face. If you don't prove me otherwise, what i've said stands. It was proven that earth was not flat, it was probably proven that oxygen was better thatn flogiston (I don't really know what both are), and Elvis... i'll skip any superflous comment on this. As for James: if you are in a position where you decide who's to go in and who's not (as the DAM), and to decide _what_ goes in and what doesn't (as an FTP-master), you must: [...] You did absolutely misreaded what i've written: i've not meant that he should not take unpopular decisions, but you where probaly focused on finding some not very helpful argument for the discussion. If you are in charge of any position in a community you inevitably get a political role. You can take popular or unpopular decision, but in neither case you can behave rudely or cut disuccion short or take any mail lightly. You are discussing with people from other countries with different language and different culture. You _must_ take time and give your best to explaint the reason of any choice you made because it's not obvious the the recipient might understand. _THIS_ is the problem. As for the DAM, i wander why an AM racommends an applicant, but the DAM does not accept him. What does this mean? Is AM role relevant or in effect DAM is the real one who decides? If the latter, why haveing AM? As you can see, this has nothing to deal with popular or unpopular decision. Do we want to talk about keyring? ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 09:40:08AM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: Sorry, but this is crap. James is doing multiple jobs, several of which are just about guaranteed to draw criticism and lots of people not liking him. That's going to be part of the job when you're the person who says no.. What should you be sorry for if you refer to my mail as a crap? This is hypocrete. You could have written those few rows in a lot of adifferent ways instead of this is crap. That's what i mean. Should i've been there in front of you, you'd probably have never told me such things in person. That's a pity. BTW, He his doing a lot of jobs for us, tecnically well done, but socially a disaster. And he can no more. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
* Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-11-13 05:00]: As for the DAM, i wander why an AM racommends an applicant, but the DAM does not accept him. What does this mean? Is AM role relevant or in effect DAM is the real one who decides? If the latter, why haveing AM? Of course the DAM is the one who makes the decision; after all, he's the only one with the authority to make the decision (read the constitution). The AM prepares a report which the DAM uses to form a decision, but he doesn't necessarily have to form the same conclusions as the AM. Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden. As you can see, this has nothing to deal with popular or unpopular decision. Right, just take Eray as an example (and note that the NM committee agreed 100% with the DAM's decision; yet the DAM got all the blame). -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:14, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but this is crap. James is doing multiple jobs, several of which are just about guaranteed to draw criticism and lots of people not liking him. That's going to be part of the job when you're the person who says no.. What should you be sorry for if you refer to my mail as a crap? This is hypocrete. You could have written those few rows in a lot of adifferent ways instead of this is crap. That's what i mean. Should i've been there in front of you, you'd probably have never told me such things in person. That's a pity. Saying this is crap in response to something you strongly disagree with is pretty much standard practise in the Internet community. It is done both online and off-line. Anyone who wants to get involved in email debates or to go drinking with programmers should be able to handle such things. If you can't handle such things then you shouldn't be criticising the social skills of other people. The nature of our development process is somewhat combative. If you search the archives of this list you will see many serious flame-wars, some of which produce positive outcomes. You just have to learn to deal with these things. Look on the bright side, having someone refer to your email as crap is better than being called a nerd at school, which I think happened to most people on this list and probably happened to you. ;) -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:02:26PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: Saying this is crap in response to something you strongly disagree with is pretty much standard practise in the Internet community. It is done both online and off-line. Anyone who wants to get involved in email debates or to go drinking with programmers should be able to handle such things. If you can't handle such things then you shouldn't be criticising the social skills of other people. Curiously, i go drinking with programmers very often, and this rarely happen. I'm sorry you face it commonly (of course one can live with it). That's to me means this is a not common behaviour, hence it is not supposed to know by anyone. The nature of our development process is somewhat combative. If you search the archives of this list you will see many serious flame-wars, some of which produce positive outcomes. You just have to learn to deal with these things. Flames make me sick, and fill my box of things i unfortunately can't tag as spam. People flameing recall me of animals fighting. A primitive way of interacting. I just ingnore them. Of course i can live with people behaving this way, and i can handle them: shouldn't i, i would have started yet another flame. Look on the bright side, having someone refer to your email as crap is better than being called a nerd at school, which I think happened to most people on this list and probably happened to you. ;) That's a point, despite the fact that i was never called a nerd or geek for the simple reason i never behaved in such a way. Those who know me can tell you. And i know more people who cannot even turn on a computer, than hakers, geek, programmers and such. I pay that by not haveing the tecnical skill most of you have: that's a trade off i accept and like. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:45:09PM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Also note that the DAM's decision can be overridden. AFAICT, i never sow this to happen, but if you say so i take it for sure (but i'd now like to have an example, just out of curiosity). Right, just take Eray as an example (and note that the NM committee agreed 100% with the DAM's decision; yet the DAM got all the blame). Indeed you're right. To me we sohuld make things more open. Let's make da-manager a mailing list (debian-dam?) with archive, so that evrything may be read openly by anyone and things get commented by themselves[1]. The same should be for ftpmaster: indeed we have debian-www, why not debian-ftp? keyring is another important issue: this should be a list too. I also want to read what happen there. ciao, [1] alternatively i would deprecate da-manager in favour of debian-newmaint (since we already have a list for a similar purpose). -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 08:00:07AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: Right, just take Eray as an example (and note that the NM committee agreed 100% with the DAM's decision; yet the DAM got all the blame). Indeed you're right. To me we sohuld make things more open. Let's make da-manager a mailing list (debian-dam?) with archive, so that evrything may be read openly by anyone and things get commented by themselves[1]. The same should be for ftpmaster: indeed we have debian-www, why not debian-ftp? A da-manager list would be a very bad idea. We do not want people's rejection from Debian to be archived in a public list which anyone can see. Imagine if searching for your name in google had Luca De Vitis is unsuitable to join debian due to ... as its first hit? If people who have been rejected want to bring the reasons why they have been rejected in a public forum, then it should be their choice, not Debian's. Having others as open lists might be interesting as well, at least from the aspect of letting people interested in helping figuring out what's going on. Cheers, Pasc
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: it was probably proven that oxygen was better thatn flogiston (I don't really know what both are) He, this would be a great signature... (Luca, oxygen is the quite essential stuff you breathe, constitutes about 20% of the air around us...) If you are in charge of any position in a community you inevitably get a political role. You can take popular or unpopular decision, but in neither case you can behave rudely or cut disuccion short or take any mail lightly. You are discussing with people from other countries with different language and different culture. You _must_ take time and give your best to explaint the reason of any choice you made because it's not obvious the the recipient might understand. _THIS_ is the problem. No, in this particular case this was not at all the problem. The original complaint explicitly stated that James' email was very polite and also stated the reason for the rejection. In most of the other conflicts surrounding James, it was not rudeness but lack of communication which was mostly criticized. In the meantime, the NM process has improved significantly, people are approved by the DAM and, as I understand it, the waiting applicants got quite a lot of feedback now. In fact, in the last DPL election I voted for Branden, and one of the major reasons was the state of the NM process. I am pleasantly surprised that Martin Michlmayr managed to improve the situation without creating big conflicts, thanks to both him and James Troup. Do we want to talk about keyring? What is the current state there? Do you have any evidence of James' rudeness in discussions about the keyring (I haven't) or is this all just about a gut feeling that you don't like him? If you think that James is not able to fulfill all his duties, it is up to us (or the DPL) to propose others to help or replace him. However, I do not see much basis in fact for your allegations of rudeness, so please either substantiate it or stop spreading such accusations. Lukas
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 01:12:50AM +1100, Pascal Hakim wrote: A da-manager list would be a very bad idea. We do not want people's rejection from Debian to be archived in a public list which anyone can see. Imagine if searching for your name in google had Luca De Vitis is unsuitable to join debian due to ... as its first hit? Why not: this would discourage people who try to join Debian without real motivation. BTW, we already have people rejection archived in debian-newmaint, so i do not see this point. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. Just like some people dislike Branden Robinson, or me. What does that have to do with anything? (for reference, I have commit access to dpkg, apt, and debbugs. this can arguably be more important than accepting new packages into debian, as doing something wrong with the above is very visible; ftpmaster is more of a hidden thing)
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Pascal Hakim dijo [Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 01:12:50AM +1100]: A da-manager list would be a very bad idea. We do not want people's rejection from Debian to be archived in a public list which anyone can see. Imagine if searching for your name in google had Luca De Vitis is unsuitable to join debian due to ... as its first hit? But it should be archived and somehow accessible. I think that it could be archived at least the same way -private is: You need to be a Debian developer in order to read the archives, but _ANY_ DD can do it. That way, if someone asks me, you or any other DD why was someone rejected, or in case the process' transparency or James' honestity are (again) put in doubt, any DD can retrieve the right answer. If people who have been rejected want to bring the reasons why they have been rejected in a public forum, then it should be their choice, not Debian's. ...But it should be possible. Greetings, -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5630-9700 ext. 1366 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 09:28:02AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote: He, this would be a great signature... (Luca, oxygen is the quite essential stuff you breathe, constitutes about 20% of the air around us...) eh, dict.org was down so i could not check them. A quick google search showed too many things to be sure (my primary doubt was with flogiston). [...] and one of the major reasons was the state of the NM process. I am pleasantly surprised that Martin Michlmayr managed to improve the situation without creating big conflicts, thanks to both him and James Troup. That's correct, but there still are unclear point in this workflow. The problem is that a new complain pops up, this is yet another discussion with no backlog, so i've to build my opinion from what happened in the past. The past was not so happy with James (i still can't say that now is not like before). What is the current state there? Do you have any evidence of James' [...] Look, he is indifferent to me: i neither like nor i dislike him. There is nothing personal against him. I want things working: if people wants to complain, i would like to care of their complains, but actually i can't because issues eveolved in private mails, while he is doing a public service for Debian. Can you tell? Cool, but i don't want to poll each DD to know about his impression/experiance about James (as well as other people in our keypoint) and his contribution. That's waht i meant. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:43:51AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. There must be somthing true in it, and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. Just like some people dislike Branden Robinson, or me. What does that have to do with anything? (for reference, I have commit access to dpkg, apt, and debbugs. this can arguably be more important than accepting new packages into debian, as doing something wrong with the above is very visible; ftpmaster is more of a hidden thing) But one were lack of due diligence can slow the project down, especially now that we are nearing the sarge release. Still waiting for one of the ftp-masters to process my new kernel-patch-2.4.22-powerpc packages needed for debian-installer support on non pmac powerpc subarches. Well, i still have other stuff to do in the meantime. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:23:01AM -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 09:28:02AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote: He, this would be a great signature... (Luca, oxygen is the quite essential stuff you breathe, constitutes about 20% of the air around us...) eh, dict.org was down so i could not check them. A quick google search showed too many things to be sure (my primary doubt was with flogiston). A quick check tells me you wouldn't find it there anyway, so I'll describe it to the best of my abilities: According to alchemists and chemists a long time ago (well, a couple of hundred years at least), Flogiston was a substance that lacked colour, taste, scent and weight, which was a part of all matter that could burn, hence its name (from the Greek Phlogiston, which means combustion). According to this theory, fire in vacuum was possible. Antoine Laurent Lavoisier proved later on that oxygen was needed for combustion. [snip] Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
too many things to be sure (my primary doubt was with flogiston).
Try searching for phlogiston instead.
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmVHI~} [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:24, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A da-manager list would be a very bad idea. We do not want people's rejection from Debian to be archived in a public list which anyone can see. Imagine if searching for your name in google had Luca De Vitis is unsuitable to join debian due to ... as its first hit? Why not: this would discourage people who try to join Debian without real motivation. I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy people joining. The number of people who have been rejected is small. The number of people who are good coders who could contribute to Debian if they chose is much larger. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:14:18 -0600, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:59:22PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote: No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! Yes, but realy a lot of people at any level in Debian have strong negative feelings towards James (just to leave it to your immagination), for various reasons. And a number of other people, also at various levels of Debian, like James, and respect the work he has put in. The point? There must be somthing true in it, I think you really need to examine your understanding of causation. Lots of people hold a view, so it must be true? and since i'm involved in Debian i never sow this situation to get better. To say it shortly: if a lot of people don't like you, thay can't all be wrong about you (and believe me, there are really a lot). Hell yes they can. And what about the other people that Like James? Can they too not be wrong? manoj -- Happiness is not a destination. It's the trip. anon Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:09:43 +1100, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:24, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A da-manager list would be a very bad idea. We do not want people's rejection from Debian to be archived in a public list which anyone can see. Imagine if searching for your name in google had Luca De Vitis is unsuitable to join debian due to ... as its first hit? Why not: this would discourage people who try to join Debian without real motivation. I think that we have more of a problem of people being afraid to contribute because of the fear of undue criticism or rejection than we have of unworthy people joining. I wish I could agree with that. However, looking at some of the people in the project, I am afraid I can not in all honesty agree with this nice sentiment. manoj -- Vila: I think I have just made the biggest mistake of my life. Orac: It is unlikely. I would predict there are far greater mistakes waiting to be made by someone with your obvious talent for it. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 11:29:07AM +, Daniel Silverstone wrote: We have procedures in place to handle all this, perhaps it's time you learnt to use those, instead of whining about things which aren't even the case. No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough! -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 11:04:04PM +0100, Rico -mc- Gloeckner wrote: Saying that another ftpmaster might think different is proof enough of a doubt; it would be better to say: your package has to wait, i will clear up with the group of ftpmasters wether this package is acceptable for debian. I think rejecting it during this process of deliberation is better than letting it sit there. A rejection alerts the maintainer that there's something wrong with the package. In most cases, the maintainer will agree and fix the package, so that it's no longer borderline and no longer needs discussion. In the rare cases where the maintainer disagrees, it makes sense to re-upload the package and/or start a discussion about it on debian-devel. Remember that this process has to scale to dozens of new packages per day. It should be optimized for the common case. At the same time, the proper default is that a package is only finally rejected if all the ftpmasters agree that it should be rejected. For some reason, Marc Haber is complaining about this default, and he wants James's first decision to be final. Then at the same time he complains about James being the Secret Master of Everything. This leaves me confused. Richard Braakman
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:18:51AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Even if this is not a personal issue of Mr. Troup towards me, having ftpmaster behave like A today and like B tomorrow is a bad thing. If I There's more than one person behind ftpmaster. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:16:23AM +, Mark Brown wrote: On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:18:51AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Even if this is not a personal issue of Mr. Troup towards me, having ftpmaster behave like A today and like B tomorrow is a bad thing. If I There's more than one person behind ftpmaster. Obviously this is one more case of lack of communication within the Debian Project. -- Rico -mc- Gloeckner | 1024D/61F05B8C | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ukeer.de |RICO-RIPE | sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] == mv ~/.signature http://www.ukeer.de/signature.html ==
RE: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Mark Brown wrote: On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:18:51AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Even if this is not a personal issue of Mr. Troup towards me, having ftpmaster behave like A today and like B tomorrow is a bad thing. If I There's more than one person behind ftpmaster. Obviously, he knows that: Marc Haber wrote: Even if this is not a personal issue of Mr. Troup towards me, having ftpmaster behave like A today and like B tomorrow is a bad thing. If I had a chance of knowing beforehand if a package uploaded will be handled by Mr. Troup or somebody else, there would be a chance of being handled fairly, but if the ftpmasters obviously don't communicate with each other [...]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I had to wait almost three weeks to have the package REJECTED by ftpmaster 20031023144719~jennifer~Moving to new~linux-atm_2.4.1-10_i386.changes 20031103144602~lisa~rejected~linux-atm_2.4.1-10_i386.changes Hmm, that doesn't even look like 2 weeks to me... but hey, who needs facts when you're flaming, right? Any comments will be appeciated. In the series of mails that followed the initial REJECT, I said (in [EMAIL PROTECTED]): | If you disagree with that, you can either try your luck with another | ftp-master or get rough consensus on debian-devel that I'm wrong. -- James
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Troup. He was unusually polite, but the mail exchange ended with him announcing that Well, sorry, but I'm personally not prepared to add (overrides for) a package to unstable with nothing but an 8k binary and a 1k manpage. [...] This is not the first time that I have had a package rejected for being too small, giving myself the impression that my work is not appreciated by Debian. Maybe I don't add enough bloat to my packages? Maybe you split too much? ;-) Bringing the linux-atm source package into a state that allows building br2684ctl locally why not automatically building it was another half day of fighting with automake. Well, to make things short, the people who asked me to include br2684ctl with linux-atm have prepared their own package - of course still only consisting of an 8k binary and a 1k manpage and uploaded to unstable. This time, the package was promptly ACCEPTed in a matter of days (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-changes/2003/debian-devel-changes-200311/msg00760.html). [...] Even if this is not a personal issue of Mr. Troup towards me, having ftpmaster behave like A today and like B tomorrow is a bad thing. If I had a chance of knowing beforehand if a package uploaded will be handled by Mr. Troup or somebody else, there would be a chance of being handled fairly, but if the ftpmasters obviously don't communicate with each other, and if there won't be a method of getting ftpmaster's opionion about a new package before any more time is wasted, maintainers will continue to be chased away, which is a loss for Debian. [...] As you were asking for opinions: I do think it is ok for ftpmaster to reject the package, imho the rationale for the split to distinguish between unreleased development software and released software versions. is a little bit weak. However the inconsistency that another member of the ftp-master team accepted an identical package later is a really bad thing. cu andreas, who does not want you to stop your Debian work for evident reasons. - -- Hey, da ist ein Ballonautomat auf der Toilette! Unofficial _Debian-packages_ of latest unstable _tin_ http://www.logic.univie.ac.at/~ametzler/debian/tin-snapshot/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/sLijHTOcZYuNdmMRAl1EAJ4pfTFRpKQ2yxYwpm5llsmwItgdmgCfba4w 4zYhEZKbzda4EIIZ9RpvcW0= =kWCb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:33:33 +, James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the series of mails that followed the initial REJECT, I said (in [EMAIL PROTECTED]): | If you disagree with that, you can either try your luck with another | ftp-master or get rough consensus on debian-devel that I'm wrong. It is usual that people who dare to question your judgment get flamed on -devel. I have had my share of that. No, thank you. You are the secret Boss of the project. You control who gets accounts, has her key in the key ring, and you control what gets into the archive. So, if you say no, the Debian doesn't want your work, that's the official voice of the project. And if you say well done, thanks for your contribution a week later to another DD having duplicated the effort that was already done, that's - again - the official voice. The official voice saying go fsck yourself to the first DD. This is bad. It is a pity that you still behave like you consider /dev/random a significant part of your daily operation. This is doing great harm to the project, and it is scaring skilled people away on a daily basis. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 11:54:26AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:33:33 +, James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the series of mails that followed the initial REJECT, I said (in [EMAIL PROTECTED]): | If you disagree with that, you can either try your luck with another | ftp-master or get rough consensus on debian-devel that I'm wrong. It is usual that people who dare to question your judgment get flamed on -devel. Actually, the people who get flamed are the ones that say self-evidently stupid things. I have had my share of that. No, thank you. You are the secret Boss of the project. And with paranoid fantasies like that, is it any wonder you've had your share? For reference, the distribution of packages wrt Installed-Size looks like: .- number of packages | . size of package, rounded down to nearest power of two (in kB) v v 9 0 - 1 3 2 7 4 92 8 218 16 928 32 2499 64 2565 128 2077 256 1711 512 1270 1024 870 2048 610 4096 295 8192 209 16384 60 32768 16 65536 3 131072 [0] Generally, it's much better to put related programs together into a single package than distribute them separately, even if that offends your aesthetic sensibilities. The whole point of Debian is to put the awkwardness of finding the right tools for the jobs into the hands of a competent maintainer, rather than passing it on to our users. Servers, rather than tools, can be a different matter. Large programs can be a different matter too. Packages below a certain size, probably 15-30kB are generally more of a nuisance to keep around separately than to merge into a related package. Cheers, aj [0] cat Packages_i386 | grep ^Installed-Size | cut -d\ -f2 | perl -nle 'print $_ ? 2**int(log($_)/log(2)) : 0;' | sort -n | uniq -c -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Australian DMCA (the Digital Agenda Amendments) Under Review! -- http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/blog/copyright/digitalagenda pgpb5WeZYZWf5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 10:54, Marc Haber wrote: | If you disagree with that, you can either try your luck with another | ftp-master or get rough consensus on debian-devel that I'm wrong. You are the secret Boss of the project. You control who gets accounts, has her key in the key ring, and you control what gets into the archive. So, if you say no, the Debian doesn't want your work, that's the official voice of the project. And if you say well done, thanks for your contribution a week later to another DD having duplicated the effort that was already done, that's - again - the official voice. The official voice saying go fsck yourself to the first DD. This is bad. Personally I don't see James as the 'official voice' of the Debian project. It's a bit presumptuous of you to assume that it's him being inconsistent in applying his rules. He's not. If you had actually *READ* the email you quoted you'd have noticed that it was me who accepted the br2684ctl package. It is a pity that you still behave like you consider /dev/random a significant part of your daily operation. This is doing great harm to the project, and it is scaring skilled people away on a daily basis. If the presence of more than one person behind a *TASK ADDRESS* can be considered /dev/random, then perhaps you should strike out against all the people who maintain packages in groups. I admit that if I'd remembered the br2684ctl - linux-atm link, I possibly wouldn't have accepted the package, however as James stated in his email: * Well, sorry, but I'm personally not prepared to add (overrides for) * a package to unstable with nothing but an 8k binary and a 1k * manpage. He personally wasn't prepared to add the package. He didn't prevent you trying to get other opinions on the matter though. Your package was rejected for being too small to warrant being split out from the linux-atm package. With no direct way to reference the br2684ctl package to the linux-atm package when I came to process some NEW packages last night, I applied common sense to the upload I had in front of me and accepted it. When linux-atm gets to the point that the br2684ctl program is sufficiently stable to be included in the main package, I invite you to file a bug requesting that the br2684ctl source package be removed, having been obsoleted by the linux-atm package. We have procedures in place to handle all this, perhaps it's time you learnt to use those, instead of whining about things which aren't even the case. Regards, Daniel Silverstone (the FTP master who appears to have inadvertantly confused you) -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.digital-scurf.org/ Hostmaster, Webmaster, and Chief Code Wibbler: Digital-Scurf Unlimited GPG Public key available from keyring.debian.org KeyId: 20687895
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Nov 11, Daniel Silverstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When linux-atm gets to the point that the br2684ctl program is sufficiently stable to be included in the main package, I invite you to file a bug requesting that the br2684ctl source package be removed, having been obsoleted by the linux-atm package. This is what I already plan to do as the br2684ctl maintainer. -- ciao, | Marco | [2978 scDmkZcDJQKbI]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:18:51AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: In early November, people asked me to package br2684ctl, a new program that has not been officially released by the linux-atm upstream. So I would have to pull br2684ctl from upstream CVS and include it in my package that contains released software only. Why would you want to do this, rather than making a separate source package? Since they are obviouly not released together, it does not make sense to try to graft a CVS snapshot of br2684ctl onto linux-atm. James Troup. He was unusually polite, but the mail exchange ended with him announcing that Well, sorry, but I'm personally not prepared to add (overrides for) a package to unstable with nothing but an 8k binary and a 1k manpage. I agree; if (for whatever reason) it was being built from the same source pacakge, I would just put it in an existing binary package. If you are concerned about its unreleased status, put a note in README.Debian, or (at most) in the package description. Well, to make things short, the people who asked me to include br2684ctl with linux-atm have prepared their own package - of course still only consisting of an 8k binary and a 1k manpage and uploaded to unstable. This time, the package was promptly ACCEPTed in a matter of days (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-changes/2003/debian-devel-changes-200311/msg00760.html). There are in fact multiple people who fill the role of ftpmaster; this package may have been processed by someone entirely different, who had a different opinion on the situation. -- - mdz
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are in fact multiple people who fill the role of ftpmaster; this package may have been processed by someone entirely different, who had a different opinion on the situation. Just to remind everybody, when there are several people filling a single role and acting separately, it is important for all of them to be on the same page. For example, I act as a co-maintainer for the sfnet.* Usenet hierarchy (the major Finnish hierarchy) together with another maintainer. Either of us can process newgroup requests but when a request has been processed it will stay processed. Granted, the decision space is much smaller (say a couple of dozens of suggestions per year) than ftpmaster's decision space. Of course, if it is clear to everybody that submitting a new package to the fptmasters results in random behaviour and resubmitting a REJECT is an accepted practice, then please ignore the above text :) -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer *
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:26:43PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: Of course, if it is clear to everybody that submitting a new package to the fptmasters results in random behaviour and resubmitting a REJECT is an accepted practice, then please ignore the above text :) James' rejection message apparently *explicitly said* that another ftpmaster might have a different opinion. I think this is a feature. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ftpmaster accepts packages that have been rejected a few days ago
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:29:44PM +, Colin Watson wrote: James' rejection message apparently *explicitly said* that another ftpmaster might have a different opinion. I think this is a feature. It certainly is not. Having guides on how decisions are made are raising transparency. Transparency will make the Maintainers be more comfortable wether something is worth to be done. Feeling comfortable raises motivation and slows down Burn-out effects. Decisions should not be made out of the stomach of each individual ftpmaster. QA can only be done if decisions are made out of reasons, and even if it takes that all ftpmasters talk to each other when they are in doubt. An decision as ftpmaster shouldnt be done as James Troup or as Daniel Silverstone - it should be made as the role ftpmaster. Saying that another ftpmaster might think different is proof enough of a doubt; it would be better to say: your package has to wait, i will clear up with the group of ftpmasters wether this package is acceptable for debian. -- Rico -mc- Gloeckner | 1024D/61F05B8C | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ukeer.de |RICO-RIPE | sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] == mv ~/.signature http://www.ukeer.de/signature.html ==
