Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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Jerome BENOIT  schrieb:
>Hello,
>
>I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a
>mercurial repository.
>Is there any custom for this case ?
>If not, can we use the version format 'hgMMDD' ?
>
>
>Best regards,
>Jerome

I tend to use:

0~MMDD+hgXX

It sorts just below anything upstream might invent later (I don't like epoch).

- -nik
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominique Dumont]

On Wednesday 02 October 2013 15:21:48 Jerome BENOIT wrote:
> I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a mercurial
> repository. Is there any custom for this case ?
> If not, can we use the version format 'hgMMDD' ?

As a user, I don't care about upstream repo. 

You should use a version derived from the date only. This way, you won't be in 
trouble if upstream switches to git.

HTH

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hi Nik,

thanks for your quick reply.

On 02/10/13 15:49, Dominik George wrote:
> 
> 
> Jerome BENOIT  schrieb:
>> Hello,
> 
>> I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a
>> mercurial repository.
>> Is there any custom for this case ?
>> If not, can we use the version format 'hgMMDD' ?
> 
> 
>> Best regards,
>> Jerome
> 
> I tend to use:
> 
> 0~MMDD+hgXX
> 
> It sorts just below anything upstream might invent later (I don't like epoch).

Ok.

What does 'XX' stand for ?

Thanks in advance,
Jerome

> 
> -nik
> 


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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Hi,

>What does 'XX' stand for ?

The short commit hash, as proposed in your initial mail.

>You should use a version derived from the date only. This way, you
>won't be in
>trouble if upstream switches to git.

I absolutely do not see why this should be an issue. Using just a date is not 
uniquely idemtifiable.

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello,

On 02/10/13 16:05, Dominik George wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>> What does 'XX' stand for ?
> 
> The short commit hash, as proposed in your initial mail.

In my first email, what you read as a commit hash was meant to be the date.

To summarise:

0~MMDD

should be fine.

Thanks,
Jerome

> 
>> You should use a version derived from the date only. This way, you
>> won't be in
>> trouble if upstream switches to git.
> 
> I absolutely do not see why this should be an issue. Using just a date is not 
> uniquely idemtifiable.
> 
> -nik
> 


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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>0~MMDD
>
>should be fine.

It isn't, it is not a unique identifier for the one "release" you are packaging.

- -nik
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Wookey]

+++ Dominik George [2013-10-02 15:49 +0200]:
> Jerome BENOIT  schrieb:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a
> >mercurial repository.
> >Is there any custom for this case ?

> I tend to use:
> 
> 0~MMDD+hgXX
> 
> It sorts just below anything upstream might invent later (I don't like epoch).

This is good advice. I've been bitten by just using MMDD as the
version on unversioned code, and then upstream eventually inventing a
version number, which of course is much smaller than 20 million, so I
had to put in an epoch. Which doesn't really matter but just seems
kind of annoying and unnecessary.

The 'use an ISO date as version' idea comes from advice in the
developer packaging docs somewhere. It would be good if this 0~ trick
was mentioned there too so one could decide whether to use it or not
at the time of initial packaging.

Wookey
-- 
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Wookey]

+++ Dominik George [2013-10-02 16:23 +0200]:
> 
> >0~MMDD
> >
> >should be fine.
> 
> It isn't, it is not a unique identifier for the one "release" you are 
> packaging.

No, but it can be a sufficient identifier so long as you don't make more
than one release a day.

Which exact tag/branch/hash/whatever was used for the orig tarball can be
recorded elsewhere in the release. It doesn't have to go in the
version number - that's a decision for the packager.

Wookey
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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Wookey  schrieb:
>+++ Dominik George [2013-10-02 16:23 +0200]:
>>
>> >0~MMDD
>> >
>> >should be fine.
>>
>> It isn't, it is not a unique identifier for the one "release" you are
>packaging.
>
>No, but it can be a sufficient identifier so long as you don't make
>more
>than one release a day.
>
>Which exact tag/branch/hash/whatever was used for the orig tarball can
>be
>recorded elsewhere in the release. It doesn't have to go in the
>version number - that's a decision for the packager.
>
>Wookey

>From a power-user point of view, I want to see what version of a package is in 
>Debian by looking through the package lists, without having to download the 
>source package or some other awkward steps.

A packager might package a 3 year old commit now, and use today's date as 
version. You see that it does not serve identifying upstream version in any 
way, it's just a useless piece of information.

- -nik
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominique Dumont]

On Wednesday 02 October 2013 16:05:18 Dominik George wrote:
> >You should use a version derived from the date only. This way, you
> >won't be in
> >trouble if upstream switches to git.
> 
> I absolutely do not see why this should be an issue.

well, you proposed a version like 'hg'. if upstream switches to git, you 
can't use a version like 'git' because it sorts before hg. I grant you 
that is easy to work around. 


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Steve McIntyre]

Wookey wrote:
>+++ Dominik George [2013-10-02 15:49 +0200]:
>> Jerome BENOIT  schrieb:
>> >Hello,
>> >
>> >I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a
>> >mercurial repository.
>> >Is there any custom for this case ?
>
>> I tend to use:
>> 
>> 0~MMDD+hgXX
>> 
>> It sorts just below anything upstream might invent later (I don't like 
>> epoch).
>
>This is good advice. I've been bitten by just using MMDD as the
>version on unversioned code, and then upstream eventually inventing a
>version number, which of course is much smaller than 20 million, so I
>had to put in an epoch. Which doesn't really matter but just seems
>kind of annoying and unnecessary.
>
>The 'use an ISO date as version' idea comes from advice in the
>developer packaging docs somewhere. It would be good if this 0~ trick
>was mentioned there too so one could decide whether to use it or not
>at the time of initial packaging.

Another point to make - please chase the upstream to at least tag
things from time to time to help people trying to release and use
their code. It seems that releasing tarballs isn't cool enough for the
'leet github generation, but tags and reproducibility still matter.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/cafe/


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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Hash: SHA512



Dominique Dumont  schrieb:
>On Wednesday 02 October 2013 16:05:18 Dominik George wrote:
>> >You should use a version derived from the date only. This way, you
>> >won't be in
>> >trouble if upstream switches to git.
>>
>> I absolutely do not see why this should be an issue.
>
>well, you proposed a version like 'hg'. if upstream switches to
>git, you
>can't use a version like 'git' because it sorts before hg. I grant
>you
>that is easy to work around.

If you deem it unlikely that two commits are made in the same day (which 
happens all the time), how likely is it that upstream switches VCSs and does an 
important commit on the same day?

- -nik
.
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Cyril Brulebois]

Wookey  (2013-10-02):
> The 'use an ISO date as version' idea comes from advice in the
> developer packaging docs somewhere. It would be good if this 0~ trick
> was mentioned there too so one could decide whether to use it or not
> at the time of initial packaging.

http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s3.2.1

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominique Dumont]

On Wednesday 02 October 2013 16:51:09 Dominik George wrote:
> >well, you proposed a version like 'hg'. if upstream switches to
> >git, you
> >can't use a version like 'git' because it sorts before hg. I grant
> >you
> >that is easy to work around.
> 
> If you deem it unlikely that two commits are made in the same day (which
> happens all the time), how likely is it that upstream switches VCSs and
> does an important commit on the same day?

that's not the issue. Try that:

dpkg --compare-versions 1.hg2012 '<=' 1.git2013 || echo 'false'


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Andrew Shadura]

Hi,

On 2 October 2013 17:27, Dominique Dumont  wrote:
>> If you deem it unlikely that two commits are made in the same day (which
>> happens all the time), how likely is it that upstream switches VCSs and
>> does an important commit on the same day?

> that's not the issue. Try that:

> dpkg --compare-versions 1.hg2012 '<=' 1.git2013 || echo 'false'

Weren't we talking about 0~20131002.hg2efc4fcd vs 0~20131002.git67ed491a?

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominique Dumont]

On Wednesday 02 October 2013 17:31:02 Andrew Shadura wrote:
> > dpkg --compare-versions 1.hg2012 '<=' 1.git2013 || echo 'false'
> 
> Weren't we talking about 0~20131002.hg2efc4fcd vs 0~20131002.git67ed491a?

Sorry, I confused between Jerome original mail and Dominik's proposal. 

Dominik's idea raises no issue at all.

Sorry for the trouble.

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Dominik George (2013-10-02 16:39:09)
> Wookey  schrieb:
>>+++ Dominik George [2013-10-02 16:23 +0200]:
>>>
0~MMDD

 should be fine.
>>>
>>> It isn't, it is not a unique identifier for the one "release" you 
>>> are packaging.
>>
>> No, but it can be a sufficient identifier so long as you don't make 
>> more than one release a day.
>>
>> Which exact tag/branch/hash/whatever was used for the orig tarball 
>> can be recorded elsewhere in the release. It doesn't have to go in 
>> the version number - that's a decision for the packager.
>>
>> Wookey
> 
> From a power-user point of view, I want to see what version of a 
> package is in Debian by looking through the package lists, without 
> having to download the source package or some other awkward steps.
> 
> A packager might package a 3 year old commit now, and use today's date 
> as version. You see that it does not serve identifying upstream 
> version in any way, it's just a useless piece of information.

A packager is not required to serve users with such specific needs.

That said, I recommend to use the date of newest commit, not packaging 
date.


 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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>A packager is not required to serve users with such specific needs.

Hmm, I last saw that attitude when being explained "the Arch way".

I established an advantage for the user using my proposal - go get me a 
disadvantage for the packager.

That said, what's the point in NOT being verbose?

- -nik
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[David Prévot]

Hi,

> Wookey  (2013-10-02):

>> It would be good if this 0~ trick
>> was mentioned there too

Already in the New Maintainers' Guide:

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/first#namever

Regards

David, kinda ashamed to add a message to that longish nitpicking thread





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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Ben Finney]

Jerome BENOIT  writes:

> I am packaging a versionless library software maintained via a
> mercurial repository. Is there any custom for this case ?

I have had a surprising rate of success simply asking upstream to make
versioned release tarballs, or at least VCS tags for release versions.

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Ben Finney


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello All,

I did not expected to initial such a thread: thanks a lot for all the messages

On 02/10/13 20:24, David Prévot wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>> Wookey  (2013-10-02):
> 
>>> It would be good if this 0~ trick
>>> was mentioned there too
> 
> Already in the New Maintainers' Guide:
> 
> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/first#namever

I guessed I was too focused on the mercurial aspect of my stuff
to forget the basics.

> 
> Regards
> 
> David, kinda ashamed to add a message to that longish nitpicking thread
> 
> 
> 
Best wishes,
Jerome


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2013-10-02 16:51:09 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> Dominique Dumont  schrieb:
> >well, you proposed a version like 'hg'. if upstream switches to
> >git, you can't use a version like 'git' because it sorts before
> >hg. I grant you that is easy to work around.
> 
> If you deem it unlikely that two commits are made in the same day
> (which happens all the time), how likely is it that upstream
> switches VCSs and does an important commit on the same day?

Forget the VCS switch. An important commit on the same day is
still possible and not unlikely (e.g. in case of a security
problem or important regression noticed a few hours later).
Then, do you mean that VCS hashes are sortable?

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2013-10-02 17:50:40 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> I established an advantage for the user using my proposal - go get
> me a disadvantage for the packager.

As a user, I dislike long version strings.

> That said, what's the point in NOT being verbose?

Version strings need to be displayed, and if they take too much space,
they may be truncated (e.g. in aptitude).

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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Dominik George]

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Hash: SHA512


Vincent Lefevre  schrieb:
>Then, do you mean that VCS hashes are sortable?

Of course not. One would have to do something like 0~MMDDnn+git in that 
rare case.

My argument for keeping the VCS hash is to ease identifying the code in the 
package.
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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2013-10-04 13:40:29 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> My argument for keeping the VCS hash is to ease identifying the code
> in the package.

Does it need to be in the version string?
Why not somewhere else?

The goal of the Version field in Debian packages is to identify
and sort several versions of Debian packages, and also give
human-understandable version information (a hash doesn't), not
to identify some specific upstream code.

-- 
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Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello,

On 04/10/13 13:50, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2013-10-04 13:40:29 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
>> My argument for keeping the VCS hash is to ease identifying the code
>> in the package.
> 
> Does it need to be in the version string?
> Why not somewhere else?
> 
> The goal of the Version field in Debian packages is to identify
> and sort several versions of Debian packages, and also give
> human-understandable version information (a hash doesn't), not
> to identify some specific upstream code.

For Mercurial VCS, date can be used as kind of hash: see the
``orig.tar from mercurial checkout'' section in

 wiki.debian.org/onlyjob/get-orig-source


hth,
Jerome
> 


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:31:35PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2013-10-02 17:50:40 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> > That said, what's the point in NOT being verbose?
> 
> Version strings need to be displayed, and if they take too much space,
> they may be truncated (e.g. in aptitude).

They can also be very confusing for users.


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Benjamin Drung]

On Fr, 2013-10-04 at 13:40 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> Vincent Lefevre  schrieb:
> >Then, do you mean that VCS hashes are sortable?
> 
> Of course not. One would have to do something like 0~MMDDnn
> +git in that rare case.
> 
> My argument for keeping the VCS hash is to ease identifying the code
> in the package.

You could put the VCS hash as text in the changelog entry, e.g. "New
upstream snapshot (git commit )." and just use the date as Debian
version (0~MMDD or 0.MMDD). In case you need to release two
upstream snapshots on the same date, you can append .2 (0~MMDD.2).

-- 
Benjamin Drung
Debian & Ubuntu Developer


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Re: how do deal with versionless mercurial software ?

[Jerome BENOIT]

Thanks !

On 15/10/13 22:32, Benjamin Drung wrote:
> On Fr, 2013-10-04 at 13:40 +0200, Dominik George wrote:
>> Vincent Lefevre  schrieb:
>>> Then, do you mean that VCS hashes are sortable?
>>
>> Of course not. One would have to do something like 0~MMDDnn
>> +git in that rare case.
>>
>> My argument for keeping the VCS hash is to ease identifying the code
>> in the package.
> 
> You could put the VCS hash as text in the changelog entry, e.g. "New
> upstream snapshot (git commit )." and just use the date as Debian
> version (0~MMDD or 0.MMDD). In case you need to release two
> upstream snapshots on the same date, you can append .2 (0~MMDD.2).
> 

I finally asked to the upstream maintainer if he could add a version string 
suffix to
his source tarball name: he did, no more tricks and everything is fine now.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all the hints and replies.

Best wishes,
Jerome


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