Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Wed, 26 May 2010, Stephen Powell zlinux...@wowway.com wrote: You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not require new backup software or impose special backup requirements. One of the advantages of Linux is that you are not forced to do things the way that the distribution vendor packages it. You can take the last lilo package that gets uploaded, build it and put it in your own apt repository, and then support it for your own users. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201006052230.21682.russ...@coker.com.au
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:42:34 -0400 (EDT), Stephen Powell zlinux...@wowway.com wrote: You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not require new backup software or impose special backup requirements. From what I guess, your backup scheme is highly hardware dependent since lilo uses block lists in the MBR to find its later stages on disk. So your restored system will only boot if you restore to a disk with the exactly same geometry. I would change the restore process to manually reinstall the boot loader after the backup software finished with its restore job anyway, or you might be surprised with an unbootable restored system if you had to restore to different hardware. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | http://www.zugschlus.de/ Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1oinnw-0004kv...@swivel.zugschlus.de
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Sat, 29 May 2010 10:51:10 -0400 (EDT), Marc Haber wrote: On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:42:34 -0400 (EDT), Stephen Powell wrote: You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not require new backup software or impose special backup requirements. From what I guess, your backup scheme is highly hardware dependent since lilo uses block lists in the MBR to find its later stages on disk. Strictly speaking, the MBR points to the partition boot sector, the partition boot sector points to the second stage loader, the second stage loader points to the map file (/boot/map) and the map file points to the kernel image blocks and the initial RAM file system image blocks. But yes, this is location-dependent information. So your restored system will only boot if you restore to a disk with the exactly same geometry. Not if the restore software understands the format of the boot loader files and knows how to patch them. Fortunately it does. But only for lilo. And only under certain conditions. I would change the restore process to manually reinstall the boot loader after the backup software finished with its restore job anyway, or you might be surprised with an unbootable restored system if you had to restore to different hardware. That is not an option. When the restore completes it automatically reboots the machine. Besides, the restore software runs under DOS, not under Linux. The boot loader installation program won't run under DOS. If patching the boot loader files was not successful, the machine won't boot. Manual intervention is necessary (i.e. boot from a rescue CD, chroot into the root file system, mount the /boot partition, and re-run the boot loader installation program). The only way around this problem (other than using smarter software) is to create an image (sector by sector) backup and do an image restore. That works with any boot loader. But that has two major drawbacks. (1) The technician has to remember to do it that way, and (2) it prevents restoring individual files. You either restore the whole server or nothing. As I've stated in other posts, we are aware of the deficiencies of our backup software and are looking at alternatives. But right now, this is what we're stuck with. Thanks for the suggestions, though. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/225990742.152441.1275162416466.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: (3) The need for special backup requirements will be used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment to oppose further deployments of Linux, ... What about the carrot approach? Find an even better backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing to your management for its efficiency. You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not require new backup software or impose special backup requirements. And its not just money. As a rule, people like what they know. The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements of my Linux servers. grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters for me for that reason. Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew, met all my requirements. It now appears that extlinux may also work. I'll soon know. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/351821928.39974.1274802154546.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell zlinux...@wowway.comwrote: On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: (3) The need for special backup requirements will be used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment to oppose further deployments of Linux, ... What about the carrot approach? Find an even better backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing to your management for its efficiency. You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not require new backup software or impose special backup requirements. And its not just money. As a rule, people like what they know. The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements of my Linux servers. grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters for me for that reason. Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew, met all my requirements. It now appears that extlinux may also work. I'll soon know. Clonezilla is free, and when using the saveparts option to save an image of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and associated data. You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last week with a new hard drive). This has been my experience with using Clonezilla and Lenny, at least. So it may help in your case. Mark
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:51:11 -0400 (EDT), Mark mamar...@gmail.com On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell zlinux...@wowway.comwrote: On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: (3) The need for special backup requirements will be used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment to oppose further deployments of Linux, ... What about the carrot approach? Find an even better backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing to your management for its efficiency. You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. ... Clonezilla is free, and when using the saveparts option to save an image of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and associated data. You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last week with a new hard drive). This has been my experience with using Clonezilla and Lenny, at least. So it may help in your case. Perhaps so. But it's not what the backup people know. They're very comfortable with the backup software that they know and love for backing up their Windows servers, which was purchased with Windows servers in mind. Do you think they're going to redo their whole backup architecture just for a few Linux servers? If I want to play in their sandbox, I have to play by their rules. That's the political reality. At our shop, Linux has a small beachhead on a vast continent controlled by Windows. Over time, the role of Linux may expand to the point where Linux is actually thought about and planned for when decisions are made. But that day is not today. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/479605722.42620.1274806845480.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:03:17 -0400 (EDT), Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. No software is entirely without cost. Free Software is no exception. There are usually no up-front licening fees, sure. However, volunteers work on whatever they like, and if no one volunteers to maintain and support your software you may have to pay for that. Even with volunteers providing maintenance and support, your specific requirements may differ from their goals and that will require effort to resolve. ... Also, volunteers are rarely concerned with market share, losing your management as users is not necessarily a concern to them. If it is a concern for you, you may have to put forward some additional effort to address your management's issues. All excellent points, Boyd. Fortunately in this case, extlinux appears to be a viable solution. I'll soon know. The guy I need to see about setting a test server to test the backup and restore scenario has been off work with a sick child for the past couple of days, but when he gets back I'll try to prove that it is 100% compatible with our backup software. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1557806589.43087.1274807547943.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2)
Original Message From: zlinux...@wowway.com To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-u...@lists.debian.org, debian-b...@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, please test grub2) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 13:00:45 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:51:11 -0400 (EDT), Mark mamar...@gmail.com On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell zlinux...@wowway.comwrote: On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: (3) The need for special backup requirements will be used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment to oppose further deployments of Linux, ... What about the carrot approach? Find an even better backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing to your management for its efficiency. You're missing the point. The main selling point to management is that Linux is free. ... Clonezilla is free, and when using the saveparts option to save an image of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and associated data. You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last week with a new hard drive). This has been my experience with using Clonezilla and Lenny, at least. So it may help in your case. Perhaps so. But it's not what the backup people know. They're very comfortable with the backup software that they know and love for backing up their Windows servers, which was purchased with Windows servers in mind. Do you think they're going to redo their whole backup architecture just for a few Linux servers? If I want to play in their sandbox, I have to play by their rules. That's the political reality. At our shop, Linux has a small beachhead on a vast continent controlled by Windows. Over time, the role of Linux may expand to the point where Linux is actually thought about and planned for when decisions are made. But that day is not today. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- +1 I have been where Steven is and agree with his approach. Larry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/479605722.42620.1274806845480.JavaM ail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/380-220105225234210...@netptc.net
