Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-18 Thread Paul Seelig 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefan Schwandter) writes:

> author's opinion the gtk+ version (snd) is far inferiour to the
> openmotif version (snd-dmotif), so I would like to add a note about that
> in README.Debian, so that users that don't know snd yet will install the
> more useful package snd-dmotif (which is in contrib, since openmotif is
> non-free).
> 
Have you considered trying to compile the Motif version with LessTif?

 Thanks, P. *8^)
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Thomas Bushnell, BSG 
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:49:13AM -0700, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > > Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.
> > 
> > It sounds like upstream basically doesn't want a free software
> > package.
> 
> Maybe they simply don't care? In any event, we are here to care, about both
> free software and the users. So the README file should be objective about
> the non-free variant and supportive towards the free variant.

If the package is in contrib, it can recommend or even require
whatever it pleases, as far as I'm concerned.  Software in main,
however, shouldn't.
 


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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Philip Brown 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 04:50:51PM +0200, Stefan Schwandter wrote:
>...
> And it doesn't make sense if I compile the program with lesstif, as long
> as upstream doesn't want to support it, because if people file bug
> reports against snd in debian, and I forward it to him, he'll most
> probably not want to deal with them - because it simply is not
> recommended to compile snd with lesstif.

I dont see that as enough reason against compiling it with lesstif, when
and if it works.
If a bugreport in snd is due to a bug in lesstif, then refile it as a bug
in lesstif. simple.
The author would be perfectly justified in not wanting to deal with it,
because it wouldnt be a bug in his software.


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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Samuel Hocevar wrote:

>Well, the interface has a few glitches, but it remains extremely
> usable. At least it compiled flawlessly against lesstif on my Sid box
> (both snd 5.8 and 5.9).

Did you also compile the xm module (configure --with-static-xm)? I get
errors when trying to do that, and the build fails. And you need the xm
module to customize the gui with guile. This allows for example the
use of Dave Phillip's extensions, which makes many features of snd more
easily accesible.


regards, Stefan
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Samuel Hocevar 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002, Stefan Schwandter wrote:

> > When was the last time you tried to compile snd with Lesstif?
> 
> Today. It didn't work. Maybe it will work one day, but now it doesn't.

   Well, the interface has a few glitches, but it remains extremely
usable. At least it compiled flawlessly against lesstif on my Sid box
(both snd 5.8 and 5.9).

   Don't you think it might be interesting to compile snd against
lesstif so that it can come out of contrib? Users who don't mind using
non-free software can still install motif instead of lesstif.

-- 
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Marcus Brinkmann 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 05:07:03PM +0200, Stefan Schwandter wrote:
> Marcus Brinkmann wrote:
> > > Simply because gtk+ support is newer and still not finished.
> > Then the solution is to improve it.
> I am still hoping that gtk support will improve, but at the moment, it
> doesn't seem that upstream wants to spend much time on it. Maybe he will
> some time in the future, but not now.

Making everyone use the motif version is certainly not going to help to
spur motivation to fix the Gtk+ version.

> Well, but the author wrote the program, and he used the openmotif
> library, and he says that his program works best with it. He provides an
> alternative that doesn't work as good. Shouldn't our users be told
> what's supposed to work better, namely the motif version?

I don't see any logic in this, sorry.  If he wrote a version that works
on Windows as well, and even better there, should we tell people to use
the Windows version?

> > You gave him the wrong alternative.  If he abandons the Gtk support, and snd
> > is worth to be used on a free software system at all, other people will pick
> > it up and fork development.
> 
> It's good to think in long terms, too, but at the moment I think about
> _now_. Now I think it wold be good to let users know the status quo of
> the gtk version in the description of the package.
> 
> The upstream README.Snd does state that the motif version's better
> anyway.
> 

Yes, isn't that enough to make you (pl.) happy?  I mean, it's not as if
the Gtk+ version is unusable.  The differences, from what I read in the
README, are minor and mostly aesthetic.

Thanks,
Marcus


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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Michael Banck 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:16:11AM +0200, Samuel Hocevar wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002, Stefan Schwandter wrote:
> 
>Yes. Debian does prefer free software, so let's use free software
> and distribute free software. Are you and/or the snd author aware of
> the existence of LessTif? snd is even on their compatibility list:
> http://chronos.cs.msu.su/LessTif/apps.html

It was already discussed that unfortunately snd does not work with lesstif

regards,

Michael


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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Josip Rodin 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:49:13AM -0700, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.
> 
> It sounds like upstream basically doesn't want a free software
> package.

Maybe they simply don't care? In any event, we are here to care, about both
free software and the users. So the README file should be objective about
the non-free variant and supportive towards the free variant.

-- 
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Thomas Bushnell, BSG 
Stefan Schwandter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.

It sounds like upstream basically doesn't want a free software
package.
 


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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Marcus Brinkmann wrote:

> > Simply because gtk+ support is newer and still not finished.

> Then the solution is to improve it.

I am still hoping that gtk support will improve, but at the moment, it
doesn't seem that upstream wants to spend much time on it. Maybe he will
some time in the future, but not now.

> [...]

> All this sounds like minor problems, if they are problems at all.  I think
> we should not value the GUI preferences of the author over Debian's goal to
> provide a completely free operating system to the user.

Well, but the author wrote the program, and he used the openmotif
library, and he says that his program works best with it. He provides an
alternative that doesn't work as good. Shouldn't our users be told
what's supposed to work better, namely the motif version?

> You gave him the wrong alternative.  If he abandons the Gtk support, and snd
> is worth to be used on a free software system at all, other people will pick
> it up and fork development.

It's good to think in long terms, too, but at the moment I think about
_now_. Now I think it wold be good to let users know the status quo of
the gtk version in the description of the package.

The upstream README.Snd does state that the motif version's better
anyway.


regards, Stefan

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread David Starner 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:27:56AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> This has been mentioned before; however, the goal of the Lesstif project 
> is to provide complete compatibility -- ABI and API -- with the Motif 
> libraries.  

They're still a long way away from being Motif 2.1 compatibile.

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Steve Langasek wrote:

> > Of course, I should have mentioned this. LessTif doesn't work for snd,
> > so this compatibility list seems to be wrong or (more probably)
> > outdated.

> > Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.

> This has been mentioned before; however, the goal of the Lesstif project 
> is to provide complete compatibility -- ABI and API -- with the Motif 
> libraries.  The only reason snd would not be compatible with Lesstif
> (regardless of whether it's supported by upstream) would be a bug in 
> Lesstif; and overall, the number of bugs in Lesstif is going down, not 
> up.  When was the last time you tried to compile snd with Lesstif?

Today. It didn't work. Maybe it will work one day, but now it doesn't.
And it doesn't make sense if I compile the program with lesstif, as long
as upstream doesn't want to support it, because if people file bug
reports against snd in debian, and I forward it to him, he'll most
probably not want to deal with them - because it simply is not
recommended to compile snd with lesstif.

Until snd works reasonably with lesstif, or gtk+, I think it would be
good to tell the users, that the motif version is the version that
upstream prefers.


regards, Stefan
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Steve Langasek 
Stefan,

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 01:35:47PM +0200, Stefan Schwandter wrote:
> Samuel Hocevar wrote:

> >Yes. Debian does prefer free software, so let's use free software
> > and distribute free software. Are you and/or the snd author aware of
> > the existence of LessTif? snd is even on their compatibility list:
> > http://chronos.cs.msu.su/LessTif/apps.html

> >If I'm not terribly mistaken, this could lead to completely free snd
> > packages.

> Of course, I should have mentioned this. LessTif doesn't work for snd,
> so this compatibility list seems to be wrong or (more probably)
> outdated.

> Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.

This has been mentioned before; however, the goal of the Lesstif project 
is to provide complete compatibility -- ABI and API -- with the Motif 
libraries.  The only reason snd would not be compatible with Lesstif
(regardless of whether it's supported by upstream) would be a bug in 
Lesstif; and overall, the number of bugs in Lesstif is going down, not 
up.  When was the last time you tried to compile snd with Lesstif?

Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


pgp1w9VpqlvwX.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Marcus Brinkmann 
On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 07:47:55AM +0200, Stefan Schwandter wrote:
> Simply because gtk+ support is newer and still not finished.

Then the solution is to improve it.
 
> >From the README:
> 
> Gtk+ is not as sophisticated as Motif, and the port is still somewhat
> new, so there are a number of differences and rough-edges in that
> version of Snd.  The primary differences are 1) Gtk+ paned-window widget
> only accepts two panes.  This means that simple boxes are used
> throughout rather than panes. 2) Gtk+ colors are a bottomless pit;
> colors may or may not work right.  3) Gtk+ file selection dialog's
> filter is restricted to a simple string using "*" -- the just-sounds
> button of Motif, and the associated sound file extension list are
> omitted.

All this sounds like minor problems, if they are problems at all.  I think
we should not value the GUI preferences of the author over Debian's goal to
provide a completely free operating system to the user.

> When I asked him the last time if gtk+ 2.0 support is already better
> then gtk+ 1.2 one, he said no - and that he's thinking about removing
> gtk-support from snd altogether, because gtk is such a mess...
> 
> And after telling him that for snd this would mean to be removed from
> the main distribution, he said that he would prefer no snd to gtk+ snd.

You gave him the wrong alternative.  If he abandons the Gtk support, and snd
is worth to be used on a free software system at all, other people will pick
it up and fork development.

Thanks,
Marcus

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Samuel Hocevar wrote:

>Yes. Debian does prefer free software, so let's use free software
> and distribute free software. Are you and/or the snd author aware of
> the existence of LessTif? snd is even on their compatibility list:
> http://chronos.cs.msu.su/LessTif/apps.html

>If I'm not terribly mistaken, this could lead to completely free snd
> packages.

Of course, I should have mentioned this. LessTif doesn't work for snd,
so this compatibility list seems to be wrong or (more probably)
outdated.

Upstream doesn't support lesstif anymore.


regards, Stefan

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread David N. Welton 

Hiding information is bad.  If that's what the upstream author thinks,
then so be it.

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Samuel Hocevar 
On Tue, Apr 16, 2002, Stefan Schwandter wrote:

> I know that debian prefers free software, but the interests of our users
> have even more priority, so I think it would be right to add such a
> note.
> 
> Any objections?

   Yes. Debian does prefer free software, so let's use free software
and distribute free software. Are you and/or the snd author aware of
the existence of LessTif? snd is even on their compatibility list:
http://chronos.cs.msu.su/LessTif/apps.html

   If I'm not terribly mistaken, this could lead to completely free snd
packages.

Sam.
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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:

> > I know that debian prefers free software, but the interests of our users
> > have even more priority, so I think it would be right to add such a
> > note.

> The interests of our users do not have *more* priority, as if they
> were ranked.

But if both conflict, you have to decide for one. And I thought that
the order in which they are called implies a ranking.

> Perhaps if you could say *why* upstream believes this to be the
> case...then you might get better advice.

Simply because gtk+ support is newer and still not finished.

>From the README:

Gtk+ is not as sophisticated as Motif, and the port is still somewhat
new, so there are a number of differences and rough-edges in that
version of Snd.  The primary differences are 1) Gtk+ paned-window widget
only accepts two panes.  This means that simple boxes are used
throughout rather than panes. 2) Gtk+ colors are a bottomless pit;
colors may or may not work right.  3) Gtk+ file selection dialog's
filter is restricted to a simple string using "*" -- the just-sounds
button of Motif, and the associated sound file extension list are
omitted.


When I asked him the last time if gtk+ 2.0 support is already better
then gtk+ 1.2 one, he said no - and that he's thinking about removing
gtk-support from snd altogether, because gtk is such a mess...

And after telling him that for snd this would mean to be removed from
the main distribution, he said that he would prefer no snd to gtk+ snd.


regards, Stefan

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Re: Recommending non-free software

2002-04-17 Thread Thomas Bushnell, BSG 
Stefan Schwandter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I know that debian prefers free software, but the interests of our users
> have even more priority, so I think it would be right to add such a
> note.

The interests of our users do not have *more* priority, as if they
were ranked.

Perhaps if you could say *why* upstream believes this to be the
case...then you might get better advice.



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Recommending non-free software

2002-04-16 Thread Stefan Schwandter 
Hello,


I'm the maintainer of the snd and snd-dmotif packages. In the upstream
author's opinion the gtk+ version (snd) is far inferiour to the
openmotif version (snd-dmotif), so I would like to add a note about that
in README.Debian, so that users that don't know snd yet will install the
more useful package snd-dmotif (which is in contrib, since openmotif is
non-free).

I know that debian prefers free software, but the interests of our users
have even more priority, so I think it would be right to add such a
note.

Any objections?


regards, Stefan

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