Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members
Nico Golde wrote: I'm sorry but your bug reports aren't very helpful sometimes. For example in #390564 there is no explanation why hal should be added to the Suggests. And thats what is required at least to make you mail helpful. You are quite right: and a reply like yours here is much more appropriate than the one that was received in the BTS. Insulting the reporter achieves nothing. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (WAS: Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members)
Hi Rodrigo, On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 06:35:42PM -0500, Luis Rodrigo Gallardo Cruz wrote: On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 12:54:09AM +0200, Maarten Verwijs wrote: On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 08:37:55PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: Try filing better bug reports instead. Since this is an ongoing problem, how about the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tis just an idea, and it may have it's do's and don't's, so please: what are the general thoughts on this? I think I see the answer to this, but still: How is this different from the -user-* lists? Please read my reply to Frank Kuster. Thanks. Also, my idea is not to replace the user-lists. The goal is to relieve the developers and packagers to allow them to do the developing and the packaging. Maybe all it takes is for posted bugs to be assigned to [EMAIL PROTECTED], instead automatically to the developer. After the helpdesk as varified that the bugreport is sensible will the bug be assigned to the developer. -Feedback- /\ End User - New BugReport - Helpdesk - Developer \ / --- --- Feedback --- --- -- If i'm guessing your intentions correctly, I think it's a great idea, Thanks. :) However, there's a very big problem. How do we avoid burn out? Maybe we don't avoid burn out. :) It gets *really* tiresome after a while, answering the same 'please go read the FAQ and don't post in HTML and don't expect me to do your homework'-kind of questions. I know. I've been helpdesker for too long in order for me to deny that. So, before we try it, any ideas how to avoid that and keep us possible volunteers motivated? One thing I think Debian could do, is acknowledge the helpdesk by giving them a formal status. The helpdesk already exists! It's in the forums, on the lists, on IRC. But: there is no cohesion, and: no formal 'helpdesker'. I think people would flock to Debian if they could become an official part of it by helping other people use Debian. So that is one thing. There are bound to be others. We could get some other project to pay them? ;-) Another: Helpdeskers could update the documenation? Or post bugs and suggestions to the DDP? Helpdeskers could recruit more helpdeskers? Fast roulation: don't helpdesk for more than half a year? I would also suggest some form of mentorship. Experienced helpdeskers showing new recruits the ropes. Watching their actions and correcting where needed. Dumping new recruits in the Deep End could be overwhelming and demotivating. [1] And that points out another posible task: Mediating between non-english-speaking users and DDs. Many won't do bug reports because of language barriers. Very true! Hadn't thought about that one! Kindest regards, Maarten -- Maarten Verwijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Simpleminded members better than abusive members
I used to work at Bell Labs. There was a very large management training effort to correct things like abusive behavior between co-workers, etc. You might say that that was a profit making company, and Debian is not, but I am sure the values still apply. http://bugs.debian.org/390564 was my suggestion, based on http://bugs.debian.org/389892 Abusive members give the message that no interaction is welcome. Bug reports and fixes will be few. Development stifled. A wall built. Simpleminded co-workers do not hurt the organization as much as abusive co-workers. You might want to have related workshops at the next Debian conference or seminars. The leadership team should get involved. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members
On Monday 02 October 2006 17:15, Dan Jacobson wrote: You might want to have related workshops at the next Debian conference or seminars. The leadership team should get involved. Try filing better bug reports instead. I don't see _any_ rationale in #390564 why the maintainer should add the Suggests. Do you really think it is strange that people dismiss your bug reports if you habitually fail to present them decently? pgpzuQPm2Z1Sy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members
Hi Dan, * Dan Jacobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-10-02 20:18]: I used to work at Bell Labs. There was a very large management training effort to correct things like abusive behavior between co-workers, etc. You might say that that was a profit making company, and Debian is not, but I am sure the values still apply. http://bugs.debian.org/390564 was my suggestion, based on http://bugs.debian.org/389892 Abusive members give the message that no interaction is welcome. Bug reports and fixes will be few. Development stifled. A wall built. Simpleminded co-workers do not hurt the organization as much as abusive co-workers. [...] I'm sorry but your bug reports aren't very helpful sometimes. For example in #390564 there is no explanation why hal should be added to the Suggests. And thats what is required at least to make you mail helpful. Kind regards Nico -- Nico Golde - http://www.ngolde.de JAB: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - GPG: 0x73647CFF Forget about that mouse with 3/4/5 buttons, gimme a keyboard with 103/104/105 keys! pgpd6SdUqYdTX.pgp Description: PGP signature
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (WAS: Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members)
Good evening, On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 08:37:55PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: Try filing better bug reports instead. Since this is an ongoing problem, how about the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please consider: 1) Endusers and bugreports often do not mix well. 2) Developers and 'Stupid Bugreports' often do not mix well. Putting a third entity between those two groups could be the sollution to this. What could be possible if Debian had an official Helpdesk Department? * End-Users could ask *any* question and actually get a nice answer. * End-Users can report bugs, but these are first checked by helpdeskers, before they are commited. * Bugreports would end up more specific and detailed * Developers would only have to communicate with Knowledgeable Helpdesk Users. * Developers: more time to develop. None wasted on useless bugreports. * Knowledgeable Users can easily become part of the official project as Helpdesker. No (or limited) packaging skills required! * If this is done right and proper, this may actually attract new users, without new problems. * Solving a problem as old as free software development. What might a good helpdesk need? * Good software (Request Tracker anyone?) * Skilled Debian Users * Management * An official place in the Debian Hierarchy? Tis just an idea, and it may have it's do's and don't's, so please: what are the general thoughts on this? /me ducks -- Maarten Verwijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (WAS: Re: Simpleminded members better than abusive members)
On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 12:54:09AM +0200, Maarten Verwijs wrote: On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 08:37:55PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: Try filing better bug reports instead. Since this is an ongoing problem, how about the following: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tis just an idea, and it may have it's do's and don't's, so please: what are the general thoughts on this? I think I see the answer to this, but still: How is this different from the -user-* lists? If i'm guessing your intentions correctly, I think it's a great idea, and it's kind of what I try to do on -user-spanish[1]. However, there's a very big problem. How do we avoid burn out? It gets *really* tiresome after a while, answering the same 'please go read the FAQ and don't post in HTML and don't expect me to do your homework'-kind of questions. So, before we try it, any ideas how to avoid that and keep us possible volunteers motivated? [1] And that points out another posible task: Mediating between non-english-speaking users and DDs. Many won't do bug reports because of language barriers. -- Rodrigo Gallardo GPG-Fingerprint: 7C81 E60C 442E 8FBC D975 2F49 0199 8318 ADC9 BC28 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
