Re: When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

2010-07-29 Thread Craig Small 
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 08:19:47PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>   Hi!
> 
> * Charles Plessy  [2010-07-29 16:53:18 CEST]:
> > Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
> > > * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
> > > > in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
> > > > infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
> > > > all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
> > > > under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
> > > > language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
> > > > from scratch.
> 
>  Rewriting everything from scratch would include losing translation
> effort which is very huge. I actually don't welcome changes that tell
> our translators technicly: "Thanks for your effort so far, but we throw
> it all away."
> 
>  About change of VCS - there are (minor) efforts going on with respect
> to try out wether git would work as backend. Any help is of course
> appreciated, in any direction. I would welcome any change too, but to
> some degree that sentence has the sounding of "if someone else does it"
> added to it.
I don't really mind switching from CVS to git, or remaining on CVS for
that matter.  I prefer git but it really is not that big an issue.

>  As about moving away from WML: I am open for something that offers us
> also the needed flexibility for pulling in automated information and
> doesn't put too much burden onto our translators.
WML is the only one where I've seen those language slices.  It seems
to do its job rather well though I am aware of kludges within the 
website backend to do its stuff at times.

The problem with replacing WML is; what do you replace it with? and will
it bring any real benefit?

Admitedly for my own pages I've moved away from wml in places but that's
because I'm using smarty AND I'm using that for different reasons to
what the website needs.

 - Craig

-- 
Craig Small  GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE  95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au
http://www.debian.org/  Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free 


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Re: When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

2010-07-29 Thread Gerfried Fuchs 
Hi!

* Charles Plessy  [2010-07-29 16:53:18 CEST]:
> Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
> > * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
> > > in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
> > > infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
> > > all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
> > > under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
> > > language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
> > > from scratch.

 Rewriting everything from scratch would include losing translation
effort which is very huge. I actually don't welcome changes that tell
our translators technicly: "Thanks for your effort so far, but we throw
it all away."

 About change of VCS - there are (minor) efforts going on with respect
to try out wether git would work as backend. Any help is of course
appreciated, in any direction. I would welcome any change too, but to
some degree that sentence has the sounding of "if someone else does it"
added to it.

 As about moving away from WML: I am open for something that offers us
also the needed flexibility for pulling in automated information and
doesn't put too much burden onto our translators.

 Just to give you an idea what I am trying to avoid: the SPI website
changed from CVS + WML years ago, and was well translated at that time.
Go to  and try to find translated pages. Or
even other updates, the last News item reads 2008, all the resolutions
are gone from the site too.

 This is definitely not something that you'll find me appreciate or push
forward. Debian is an international community and wants, no, scratch
that, _needs_ to reach out to people in their native languages.

> > Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established
> > project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with
> > different infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things.

 I would be really interested in ideas and discussions about possible
different infrastructure. I'm definitely not opposed to change (mind
you, that's why I am working on getting ,
 and 
deployed). Please speak up so we can properly discuss things. But please
understand that there is minimum requirements and simply throwing
everything away isn't a good idea.

> Indeed, I am starting to wonder if it would be possible to use redirections or
> aliases to allow a step-by-step transition…

 A how big list of redirections and aliases do you have in mind that you
want to have deployed to the mirror network? How many external links are
you willing to intentionally break by what's spinning around in your
mind?

> Instead of looking for volunteers to migrate the whole website,
> perhaps we should focus on giving flexibility for people who care
> about a particular branch to use a different system, provided that it
> follows some appearance and translation standards.

 Splitting the site into different smaller pieces that all do go their
own approaches, potential all in different directions, won't improve
things IMNSHO, and potential shy away translators for having to follow
several tiny bits.

 Or you have something completely different in mind and are just not
able to transport it in your writing - then pretty please try to
rephrase so that I can understand your proposal better.

> Perhaps this discussion should better be continued on debian-...@l.d.o…

 Yes, please let's keep such discussions on here, after all the list is
exactly for that. :)

 Enjoy!
Rhonda
-- 
"Lediglich 11 Prozent der Arbeitgeber sind der Meinung, dass jeder
Mensch auch ein Privatleben haben sollte."
-- http://www.karriere.at/artikel/884/


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When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

2010-07-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
> * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
> 
> > in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
> > infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
> > all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
> > under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
> > language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
> > from scratch.
> 
> Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established
> project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with
> different infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things.

Indeed, I am starting to wonder if it would be possible to use redirections or
aliases to allow a step-by-step transition… Instead of looking for volunteers
to migrate the whole website, perhaps we should focus on giving flexibility for
people who care about a particular branch to use a different system, provided
that it follows some appearance and translation standards.

Perhaps this discussion should better be continued on debian-...@l.d.o…

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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