Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Le mercredi 23 juillet 2014 à 16:12 -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : Someone with more detailed desktop knowledge should read this over and correct it as necessary. This is just my understanding of what's going on, and I don't work with the software in question and could be wrong in some details. This is overall accurate except for: However, PolicyKit has basically been orphaned upstream, replaced by the rewritten polkit, and I believe polkit depends on logind to provide core functionality around knowing what users are on console. polkit = PolicyKit It’s just that PolicyKit used to rely on ConsoleKit to obtain the information about who is logged on the system. Now that ConsoleKit is orphaned, the only available information is provided by systemd-logind. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1406388024.2376.4.camel@tomoyo
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
However, you're doing this during boot, so there *are* no active users, since the system hasn't come up far enough to let anyone log in yet. So it makes sense that you don't get a prompt. Does that mean that the new pid 1 expects users to be logged in before it starts the system? -- Juliusz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ppgwcdp5.wl-...@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Juliusz Chroboczek j...@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr writes: However, you're doing this during boot, so there *are* no active users, since the system hasn't come up far enough to let anyone log in yet. So it makes sense that you don't get a prompt. Does that mean that the new pid 1 expects users to be logged in before it starts the system? No, of course not. The tool that you're using isn't only for use during early boot, and you're using it in a way that is incorrect for use during early boot. The solution is to use the tool correctly. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87egxc6les@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
On 2014-07-22 19:54:10 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: logind is also not mandatory in Debian now. It's just required, upstream, by all the major desktop environments. Not just by all the major desktop environments. It is also needed by hplip via dependencies[*], which is quite surprising for a HP Linux Printing and Imaging System. [*] hplip - policykit-1 - libpam-systemd - systemd Or is there any abuse of a dependency here? -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: https://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: https://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140723224655.ga14...@xvii.vinc17.org
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net writes: On 2014-07-22 19:54:10 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: logind is also not mandatory in Debian now. It's just required, upstream, by all the major desktop environments. Not just by all the major desktop environments. It is also needed by hplip via dependencies[*], which is quite surprising for a HP Linux Printing and Imaging System. [*] hplip - policykit-1 - libpam-systemd - systemd Or is there any abuse of a dependency here? Someone with more detailed desktop knowledge should read this over and correct it as necessary. This is just my understanding of what's going on, and I don't work with the software in question and could be wrong in some details. There is a general class of problems around let the user on console do thing that were originally controlled via UNIX groups. The problem with doing this via UNIX groups is that either you need complicated PAM machinery to add supplemental groups based on whether the user is on console, or you have to change the security model to users who are allowed to use the console but may not be on console at this time, which poses other problems. PolicyKit provided an alternative way of handling those problems, and I suspect that's why HPLIP depended on PolicyKit. It allowed a more direct expression of rules like only users on console can do this. However, PolicyKit has basically been orphaned upstream, replaced by the rewritten polkit, and I believe polkit depends on logind to provide core functionality around knowing what users are on console. So anything that had switched from something group-based for handling this problem to PolicyKit has probably moved or is moving to polkit, which relies on facilities currently only provided by logind. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fvhr3c11@windlord.stanford.edu
all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Hi, (as this thread has already attracted two interesting replies, I'll try again to convey the message which has not been heard yet... I don't have high hopes this thread won't become a flamefest, but I want to at least try to kill the flames before they explode...) (And if you know systemd, please scroll down and help Julian with his actual question...) On Dienstag, 22. Juli 2014, Julian Gilbey wrote: I just tried updating testing on my system. I currently use sysvinit-core (reasons below), but aptitude is telling me that I should remove this in favour of systemd-sysv. Hmm, why is that? Because all modern desktops now need systemd so all features work. blame upstream^w^wsend patches to upstream and Debian will have those... Really, get over it or do something. Ranting on -devel will not change anything. And this is actually pretty old news too: see http://layer-acht.org/thinking/blog/2014-06-03-systemd-mostly-harmless/ Thank you. So I would presume that for many or most Debian systems, systemd is now required s#most Debian systems#most Debian desktop systems# For me, this is a killer, as I still do not know how to solve the problem I asked a while back on debian-user (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/04/msg01286.html): in summary, I need to unlock an encrypted filesystem during boot time by asking for a password to feed into encfs. But I cannot figure out how to do this under systemd. Answers to this question would also be much appreciated! I hope someone will be able to help Julian with this question... cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Holger Levsen hol...@layer-acht.org writes: On Dienstag, 22. Juli 2014, Julian Gilbey wrote: For me, this is a killer, as I still do not know how to solve the problem I asked a while back on debian-user (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/04/msg01286.html): in summary, I need to unlock an encrypted filesystem during boot time by asking for a password to feed into encfs. But I cannot figure out how to do this under systemd. Answers to this question would also be much appreciated! I hope someone will be able to help Julian with this question... This is just speculation, and I've not tried this, but my first thought in reading this message is that the --no-tty part is a mistake. The documentation of that option says: When run with no TTY or with --no-tty it will query the password system-wide and allow active users to respond via several agents. The latter is only available to privileged processes. However, you're doing this during boot, so there *are* no active users, since the system hasn't come up far enough to let anyone log in yet. So it makes sense that you don't get a prompt. I suspect you instead need to run systemd-ask-password with a tty. Take a look at systemd.exec(5) at the TTY* options for the systemd unit file. I suspect you need to write a unit file corresponding to your init script that runs systemd-ask-password and uses TTYPath=/dev/tty1. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ha29ndyf@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 01:26:47AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: On Dienstag, 22. Juli 2014, Julian Gilbey wrote: I just tried updating testing on my system. I currently use sysvinit-core (reasons below), but aptitude is telling me that I should remove this in favour of systemd-sysv. Hmm, why is that? Because all modern desktops now need systemd so all features work. blame upstream^w^wsend patches to upstream and Debian will have those... What they need is logind. Saying needs systemd for things that need logind is as hopelessly confusing as if you were to say it for things that need udev. logind itself currently needs systemd as PID 1, because systemd 208 was uploaded to unstable (and has migrated to testing) before systemd-shim has been updated for compatibility. I have already opined that I think this was a bad idea and will not belabor the point. Really, get over it or do something. Ranting on -devel will not change anything. There was nothing in Julian's message which was a rant, so I don't think this response is called for. He *was* doing something about a systemd integration problem that was a blocker for him - he was asking for help. If we have to go through this same sequence of messages every time someone asks on debian-devel for help with a systemd issue, it's going to be a long release cycle. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Hi Steve, thanks for the technical details, much appreciated. On Mittwoch, 23. Juli 2014, Steve Langasek wrote: There was nothing in Julian's message which was a rant, so I don't think this response is called for. Well, the subject (and also the body) conveyed the wrong message, that systemd is mandatory in Debian now. Which - as you also said - is wrong, at least for two reasons: a.) it's logind, not systemd and b.) only desktops are affected. And, even though the rest of Julians message was as you described, it attracted two quite flamatory replies at first... He *was* doing something about a systemd integration problem that was a blocker for him - he was asking for help. If we have to go through this same sequence of messages every time someone asks on debian-devel for help with a systemd issue, it's going to be a long release cycle. I totally agree with these parts - and while I do think this thread startly badly I also think it has become a much nicer one by now. Hopefully this is more like how systemd threads will be in future too ;) cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 03:58:32AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: Well, the subject (and also the body) conveyed the wrong message, that systemd is mandatory in Debian now. Which - as you also said - is wrong, at least for two reasons: a.) it's logind, not systemd and b.) only desktops are affected. apt-get install logind E: Unable to locate package logind If logind was detachable from systemd, it would be in a separate package. For now, just use the last working version of policykit (0.105-4). -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140723023548.ga23...@angband.pl
Re: all modern desktops need systemd, either send patches or life with it (Re: systemd now appears to be only possible init system in testing)
Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl writes: On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 03:58:32AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: Well, the subject (and also the body) conveyed the wrong message, that systemd is mandatory in Debian now. Which - as you also said - is wrong, at least for two reasons: a.) it's logind, not systemd and b.) only desktops are affected. apt-get install logind E: Unable to locate package logind If logind was detachable from systemd, it would be in a separate package. logind is also not mandatory in Debian now. It's just required, upstream, by all the major desktop environments. I think one point Holger was making is that *desktop environments* are not mandatory in Debian. I have lots of Debian systems, including my desktop, that don't run any desktop environment at all. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87vbqohjjh@windlord.stanford.edu
