Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:07:51 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about phoning them? [0] I didn't feel like it is _that_ necessary. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
* Thomas Viehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 23:50]: So why is the recommendation against skipping the ITP to aviod problems in ftpmaster review not right? A (strong) recommendation for doing ITPs right is right and usefull. But - all foreseeable problems should be handeled at ITP-time, and that's not the case. So the recommendation is right, but it doesn't solve the problem Marc spoke of. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Andreas Barth wrote: * Thomas Viehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 23:50]: So why is the recommendation against skipping the ITP to aviod problems in ftpmaster review not right? A (strong) recommendation for doing ITPs right is right and usefull. But - all foreseeable problems should be handeled at ITP-time, and that's not the case. So the recommendation is right, but it doesn't solve the problem Marc spoke of. I doubt that an eicar-installer ITP would have survived the scrutiny of devel. So it may not solve the general problem Marc about but it solves a very good share of it, most likely *including* the very specific instance he had problems with. If you can't come up with a case where the ITP review was positive and ftpmaster rejected the package in itself with a unforseeable reason (regarding a problem that cannot be fixed), I fail to see any merit in your argument. There's no point in establishing VIP review for people who are think they are too important for undergoing peer review. *Look* at #198311 and search for debian-devel and then ask yourself why Marc thinks that -devel should only be used as a forum to discredit ftpmasters work, and not as a place where ITPs should be reviewed. Cheers T. pgp0n7r2FptNY.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 11:03:37 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *Look* at #198311 and search for debian-devel and then ask yourself why Marc thinks that -devel should only be used as a forum to discredit ftpmasters work, and not as a place where ITPs should be reviewed. That was indeed an omission, caused by the fact that I filed an RFP first and later retitled the bug to ITP. Surely you never make any mistakes. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Marc Haber wrote: On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 11:03:37 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *Look* at #198311 and search for debian-devel and then ask yourself why Marc thinks that -devel should only be used as a forum to discredit ftpmasters work, and not as a place where ITPs should be reviewed. That was indeed an omission, caused by the fact that I filed an RFP first and later retitled the bug to ITP. Surely you never make any mistakes. I make a lot of mistakes. (That's why I prefer working on computers/math over things like medicine.) In fact, I made a similar mistake with the ITP of libchipcard (IIRC) because the X-Debbugs-CC got lost because I usually call reportbug -p and copy stuff into my mailclient when reporting bugs. (And it might be a reasonable idea to investigate posting ITPs on debian-devel by other means than the X-Debbug-CC-Header so such obmissions are impossible). However, I sincerely believe that without this obmission, the ITP might have been shot down (or held reasonable) before the upload (and possibly before the creation) of the package. Thus (leaving the style issue that upset you aside) I think that the (technical) merit of your complaint is somewhat limited. As far as the eicar license is concerned: Is it really that difficult to obtain a statement from eicar on whether or not they believe that the test file is copyrightable and maybe a general permission to distribute the file? From your comment I guess you tried, but quite possibly they understand better Debian's concern about licensing with all the publicity the SCO lawsuit has. That said, I see additional issues with the inclusion of the eicar file (aside from the obvious point that probably it'd rest just as well in another package containing a virus scanner): Debian mirrors and CDs will be quite possibly be identified as carrying virii. Quite possibly, it's reasonable to obfuscate (in a documented way) the file (e.g. xor it and provide a program for decryption) or include a script or download instructions rather than the file itself. Possibly, even the original installer package looks a lot less silly on second thought. Cheers T. pgpIIa5GHxRAZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:00:18 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as the eicar license is concerned: Is it really that difficult to obtain a statement from eicar on whether or not they believe that the test file is copyrightable and maybe a general permission to distribute the file? From your comment I guess you tried, Actually, I tried three times. Once via the official contacts listed on the eicar web page, and once via the domain contacts for eicar.com. In both cases, my e-mail was completely ignored. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Marc Haber wrote: On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:00:18 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as the eicar license is concerned: Is it really that difficult to obtain a statement from eicar on whether or not they believe that the test file is copyrightable and maybe a general permission to distribute the file? From your comment I guess you tried, Actually, I tried three times. Once via the official contacts listed on the eicar web page, and once via the domain contacts for eicar.com. In both cases, my e-mail was completely ignored. How about phoning them? [0] There's a German phone number for the executive secretary. If nothing else, he might be able to point you in the correct directions. You could also try phoning Urs Gattiker... (I've had bad experiences with phoning via 01024 to Denmark though.) Cheers T. 0. http://www.eicar.org/inside.htm#office pgpKpZ7BkTdTV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:21:05 +0200, Thomas Wana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Donnerstag, 3. Juli 2003 16:51 schrieb Marc Haber: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. Well that's the purpose of ITP-bugs against wnpp I think, because they are CC'd to debian-devel for public review. I do not ask for public review, I ask for a pre-work interface to ftpmaster which is the single instance of power that is able to disallow a package into the archive. Please show me a single ITP bug number where ftpmaster has said this package will not go into the archive, I will reject it on upload. And since ftpmaster sent you to -devel he would obey the opinion of the list. The list does not seem to have an opinion yet. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:32:29 +0200, Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: In the past years, I have found it annoying that the eicar anti-virus testfile is not available as aptable Debian package. Why is this annoying? Because it makes debugging anti-virus software harder, and forces maintainers of anti-virus packages to have their own means of obtaining eicar.com for testing purposes I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. Especially if it is done in Mr. Troup's usual why did you bother me in the first place, mere mortal style. Frankly, with this particular one, I entirely fail to see why you ignore several perfectly valid reasons laid out in the reasonably polite (if a bit dazzled) rejection notice and go off ranting instead. Saying a package is silly is a valid rejection reason in your opinion? Another reason is that a package depending on and recommending eicar-testfile would have to go into contrib. Yes, right, but there is Suggests: which allows a package suggesting eicar-testfile to stay in main. And forbidding code-reuse by suggesting that packages needing eicar.com could download the file themselves (probably forcing these packages to go into contrib themselves while they could be in main if eicar-testfile were in debian) is not a reason as well? Well, _I_ find it impolite to say work that has been done by a volunteer is silly. Actually, I find it discouraging to do any more future work for Debian Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:57:19 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 03 Jul 2003, Marc Haber wrote: Since eicar.com has no license and eicar doesn't seem to be interested in clarifying its license, inclusion of the eicar test string in Debian proper is out of the question, even for non-free. Ick. They are included in the amavisd-new _source_ packages. Which is a violation of eicar.com's license in my opinion. I won't file a grave bug against amavisd-new, but I suspect that somebody else will. From http://www.eicar.org/anti_virus_test_file.htm, I get that while they do not display a license, they explicitly allow us to distribute it. NACK. The word distribute is not used on the web page. People are encouraged to make use of the test file, and to point other people to the eicar.com download page. I think the page makes it pretty clear that eicar.com wants each user to download her own copy of eicar.com from the eicar web page. Which is what my eicar-testfile package tries to do. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 23:05:02 +0200, Bernd Eckenfels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. Actually I think ftp-master are having already too much power as a decision instance without real legitimation. Establishing yet another interface for them to block maintainers would need a resolution by the community that we are willing to delegate the job of verifying packages to them. ftp-master _has_ power to block maintainers. What I am asking for is an interface to be at least blocked _before_ work is done. I think the time of the ftp masters could be spend on other issues without stepping on ppls feet. Especially becuase ftpmaster usually steps on people's feed not by rejecting a package, but by calling packages silly, or putting them in directories named lame. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 03:01:14 +0200, Yven Johannes Leist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find that to be a very unfair accusation, since at least to my eyes there was nothing especially unfriendly, unreasonable or otherwise criticizable in James rejection notice. How would you react if somebody called work you did and that took a few hours silly? And Mr. Troup's appreciation of my work is appropriately named in the directory name the package sits in at the moment. I personally very much value the fact that someone like James whose knowledge and judgment I trust invests so much time in vetting (my) packages for potential omissions or stupidities. Well, if there was an interface to interact with ftpmaster _before_ any work is being done... Turnaround times are too long anyway. It took Mr. Troup almost two weeks to reject this silly package. Hmm, *my* strategy for handling such states of emotional unrest is to wait at least half a day to see how much anger or madness is actually left, since I find that to be an enormous efficiency gain with respect to avoiding lengthy and pointless discussions... ;-) Actually, I get madder the longer I think about it. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Marc Haber wrote: Well that's the purpose of ITP-bugs against wnpp I think, because they are CC'd to debian-devel for public review. Please show me a single ITP bug number where ftpmaster has said this package will not go into the archive, I will reject it on upload. There's numerous ITPs where e.g. licensing (seems to be a main issue with ftpmaster) has been discussed (the last I recall is #199874 dated 2003-07-03). If you're too cool to do proper ITPs then don't complain about the debian processing for new packages not working for you. And since ftpmaster sent you to -devel he would obey the opinion of the list. The list does not seem to have an opinion yet. Hmm. No? Cheers T. pgpMCnkQQyKPe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
How would you react if somebody called work you did and that took a few hours silly? In the sweetest way possible, if all you lost was a few hours then I don't see why you're (apparently) so very upset. Many times I have seen contributions worth days or weeks of work dismissed from software projects. For that matter, in academia you can spend months or years working on a result only to find that someone else has been working on the same result simultaneously and has published it before your work was complete. If it's only a few hours I'd honestly just file it away under experience and get on with my life. Not taking sides, just putting it into perspective. Ben. :)
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Marc Haber wrote: Because it makes debugging anti-virus software harder, and forces maintainers of anti-virus packages to have their own means of obtaining eicar.com for testing purposes Debugging anti-virus software should be done by the maintainers thereof. Why would a user need this? Saying a package is silly is a valid rejection reason in your opinion? Another reason is that a package depending on and recommending eicar-testfile would have to go into contrib. Yes, right, but there is Suggests: which allows a package suggesting eicar-testfile to stay in main. Having an installer just because some organization is too lazy to provide a license with a 68 bytes is plainly wrong (since eicar seems to be located in Germany it might even be questionable whether they can claim copyright for something of that size - but then they just could put it into the public domain). Well, _I_ find it impolite to say work that has been done by a volunteer is silly. Actually, I find it discouraging to do any more future work for Debian What did you want to package next? An installer that has a debconf prompt for asking whether eicar.com, eicar.com.txt, eicar_com.zip, or eicarcom2.zip should be downloaded? Seriously, you're more substantial contributions have been accepted haven't they? And that in spite of the fact that not having a legal name in deamon's copyright file is questionable. And the package in question is just about the silliest package I've ever seen (aside from those announced April 1st). Cheers T. pgpwOyC9gFD84.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: It is my opinion that it would be a good idea to have that installer package in Debian. Heck, if I wouldn't have that opinion, I wouldn't have spent some of my time to build that package. Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. So, let me get this straight: you think that if a volunteer does some work then it should be accepted into Debian unconditionally? No matter what? Because that's what you seem to be saying. Bah. I'm glad the ftpmasters reject packages from time to time. I'm sure you could always ask some people on IRC if you wanted a second opinion on something you're doing. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
* Thomas Viehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 09:35]: Marc Haber wrote: Well that's the purpose of ITP-bugs against wnpp I think, because they are CC'd to debian-devel for public review. Please show me a single ITP bug number where ftpmaster has said this package will not go into the archive, I will reject it on upload. There's numerous ITPs where e.g. licensing (seems to be a main issue with ftpmaster) has been discussed (the last I recall is #199874 dated 2003-07-03). Andreas Tille, who critized the license in #199874 is according to http://www.debian.org/intro/organization not ftpmaster. So ... If you're too cool to do proper ITPs then don't complain about the debian processing for new packages not working for you. ... is not right. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
* Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 10:50]: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. So, let me get this straight: you think that if a volunteer does some work then it should be accepted into Debian unconditionally? No matter what? Because that's what you seem to be saying. Marc is doing it the other way: He want an interface to reject a package before substantial work has been spent on it. So there shouldn't be this conflict any more, which would be a good thing. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 11:08:04AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 10:50]: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. So, let me get this straight: you think that if a volunteer does some work then it should be accepted into Debian unconditionally? No matter what? Because that's what you seem to be saying. Marc is doing it the other way: He want an interface to reject a package before substantial work has been spent on it. So there shouldn't be this conflict any more, which would be a good thing. That's pointless, I think. If I were an ftpmaster I would not be willing to render an opinion on a package before I actually saw the package, especially if I were going to be held to that opinion later (and, if I wasn't, what's the point)? Initial upload is the right time to perform checks. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 09:26:17AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: How would you react if somebody called work you did and that took a few hours silly? And Mr. Troup's appreciation of my work is appropriately named in the directory name the package sits in at the moment. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/org/ftp.debian.org/queue/reject$ ls eicar-testfile_0.1* eicar-testfile_0.1.dsc eicar-testfile_0.1_all.deb eicar-testfile_0.1_i386.reason eicar-testfile_0.1.tar.gz eicar-testfile_0.1_i386.changes What's the problem? Is there a copy somewhere else? It took Mr. Troup almost two weeks to reject this silly package. In another mail you complained that it took far less time to reject a package than to process it successfully. This seems unconsistent with this statement. Michael -- tbm hi Kamion Kamion tbm: hi. er. where are you? tbm Kamion: sitting in your living room ;-)
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 10:14:10 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Haber wrote: Because it makes debugging anti-virus software harder, and forces maintainers of anti-virus packages to have their own means of obtaining eicar.com for testing purposes Debugging anti-virus software should be done by the maintainers thereof. Why would a user need this? A local administrator could use that file to make sure that his security measures are properly in place. Having an installer just because some organization is too lazy to provide a license with a 68 bytes is plainly wrong These 68 bytes are very useful. So there should be a way to obtain them. The Debian way Well, _I_ find it impolite to say work that has been done by a volunteer is silly. Actually, I find it discouraging to do any more future work for Debian What did you want to package next? An installer that has a debconf prompt for asking whether eicar.com, eicar.com.txt, eicar_com.zip, or eicarcom2.zip should be downloaded? If you really want this to evolve into a pissing contest about who does a better job in maintaining packages please compare our package tracking pages before you begin. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:48:24 +0200, Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a copy somewhere else? Yes. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:43:35 +0100, Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's pointless, I think. If I were an ftpmaster I would not be willing to render an opinion on a package before I actually saw the package, especially if I were going to be held to that opinion later (and, if I wasn't, what's the point)? Initial upload is the right time to perform checks. To perform technical checks, yes. This one is an ideological issue. Which could be properly discussed before time was spent to get a package built and make it pass all lintian checks. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
* Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 12:05]: On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 11:08:04AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 10:50]: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. So, let me get this straight: you think that if a volunteer does some work then it should be accepted into Debian unconditionally? No matter what? Because that's what you seem to be saying. Marc is doing it the other way: He want an interface to reject a package before substantial work has been spent on it. So there shouldn't be this conflict any more, which would be a good thing. That's pointless, I think. If I were an ftpmaster I would not be willing to render an opinion on a package before I actually saw the package, especially if I were going to be held to that opinion later (and, if I wasn't, what's the point)? There are several reasons why a package could be rejected. Some are global reasons (means: independent of the way the maintainer packaged) and some are local, e.g. sloppy packaging, abusing scripts or pointless descriptions. The discussion is only about global reasons, as wrong license, we don't need this package or simmilar. This reasons could be discussed before making the package quite as easy as afterwards. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 01:17:50PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: The discussion is only about global reasons, as wrong license, we don't need this package or simmilar. This reasons could be discussed before making the package quite as easy as afterwards. OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 02:56:30PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. Not to mention that it's still possible that a package may have a problem which is not obvious until the package is seen. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 09:01:25AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:32:29 +0200, Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: In the past years, I have found it annoying that the eicar anti-virus testfile is not available as aptable Debian package. Why is this annoying? Because it makes debugging anti-virus software harder, and forces maintainers of anti-virus packages to have their own means of obtaining eicar.com for testing purposes I believe we could use this argument to justify packaging everything on the Internet. After all, why should a browser developer have to have an internet connection for testing purposes either? etc. ITP: google.com Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
* Mark Brown ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 16:05]: On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 02:56:30PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. Not to mention that it's still possible that a package may have a problem which is not obvious until the package is seen. Nobody said that ftpmaster must see all problems from ITP. But - every problem that is seen at ITP time saves volunteer time for more usefull things. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 01:02:13PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 10:14:10 +0200, Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Haber wrote: Because it makes debugging anti-virus software harder, and forces maintainers of anti-virus packages to have their own means of obtaining eicar.com for testing purposes Debugging anti-virus software should be done by the maintainers thereof. Why would a user need this? A local administrator could use that file to make sure that his security measures are properly in place. Having an installer just because some organization is too lazy to provide a license with a 68 bytes is plainly wrong These 68 bytes are very useful. So there should be a way to obtain them. The Debian way Why can't you include a download script in the existing anti-virus package that this is supposed to be useful to? Why is saying want the test data? Run 'apt-get install eicar-installer' better than saying want the test data? Run 'wget http://eicar.com/...' or run /usr/lib/anti-virus/eicar-download? -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpIR34ymOtuL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 05:22:33PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: Nobody said that ftpmaster must see all problems from ITP. But - every problem that is seen at ITP time saves volunteer time for more usefull things. That actually appeared to be exactly what Marc was asking for when he started this thread. Frankly, the difference in this case looks more like ftpmaster actually being able to look at the package rather than the ITP alone. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 10:14:10AM +0200, Thomas Viehmann wrote: Debugging anti-virus software should be done by the maintainers thereof. Why would a user need this? i used it many times, for example to find out which archives are checked and which not. In fact I even already wrote bugs for AV scan software because it did not recognized eicar signature inside archives, which where announced. #155485 is such an example. Thomas, actually I wonder if you talk about Linux or Debian, or if you confuse this with commercial windows packages, which can only be debugged by their vendor. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 02:56:30PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. Personally I would prefer not to reviewe the packages at all. We have a well established and accepted bug and itp process for that. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Saturday 05 July 2003 09:26, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 03:01:14 +0200, Yven Johannes Leist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find that to be a very unfair accusation, since at least to my eyes there was nothing especially unfriendly, unreasonable or otherwise criticizable in James rejection notice. How would you react if somebody called work you did and that took a few hours silly? And Mr. Troup's appreciation of my work is appropriately named in the directory name the package sits in at the moment. Well, I wouldn't exactly call this nice either, but very often working on free software isn't nice in that sense. Compared to Linus, who will happily tell you that he doesn't care about hurt feelings at all and officially endorses public humiliation in order to shame people into fixing their stuff, ftp-master seems almost meek, I'd say. In the kernel case often not just hours or days, but months or even years of work have been simply thrown away; just see the story of the new kbuild system or the ide layer in 2.5 for instance. Hence, for something roughly equivalent to the kbuild case, imagine yourself creating at least a dozen heavily complex packages, putting lots of efforts into maintaining them in your private repository while trying to convince people for months on debian-devel why these packages are actually useful and needed and many people strongly agreeing with that sentiment and *then* ftp-master coming along, simply rejecting them and maybe not even telling you why exactly they won't accept your packages, and to make matters even worse not even having ever told you that they would never except them anyway. Put into such a perspective I think you'll understand why I find ftp-master meek in comparison. Hmm, *my* strategy for handling such states of emotional unrest is to wait at least half a day to see how much anger or madness is actually left, since I find that to be an enormous efficiency gain with respect to avoiding lengthy and pointless discussions... ;-) Actually, I get madder the longer I think about it. Hmm, you obviously need a different strategy then... ;-) Cheers, Yven -- Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leist.beldesign.de
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 08:26:43PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. Personally I would prefer not to reviewe the packages at all. We have a well established and accepted bug and itp process for that. While that would seem to nicely do away with the problem here, for a certain number of packages that have a minute number of users, this would do away with the only QA test they'll have in years. And we already constantly see lamentations on how among the thousands of packages Debian, there's a fair bit of badly packaged fodder. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Andreas Barth wrote: * Thomas Viehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 09:35]: Marc Haber wrote: Well that's the purpose of ITP-bugs against wnpp I think, because they are CC'd to debian-devel for public review. Please show me a single ITP bug number where ftpmaster has said this package will not go into the archive, I will reject it on upload. There's numerous ITPs where e.g. licensing (seems to be a main issue with ftpmaster) has been discussed (the last I recall is #199874 dated 2003-07-03). Andreas Tille, who critized the license in #199874 is according to http://www.debian.org/intro/organization not ftpmaster. So ... If you're too cool to do proper ITPs then don't complain about the debian processing for new packages not working for you. ... is not right. The point is that the public review of ITPs (which is part of the process of submitting a new package) seems cover most of the concerns that may cause rejection by ftpmaster (which is the final part of a new packages' way to debian). At least that's my impression of the way this is supposed to work. What I'm saying is that basically the discussion on devel would have addressed the limited merit alledged by ftpmaster. Marc's complaint (or at least one of the more clear items he complained about) was that he received ftpmasters feedback after his work is done. Had he ITPd (properly), he might have been told before. So why is the recommendation against skipping the ITP to aviod problems in ftpmaster review not right? Cheers T. pgptTkx8JCola.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Bernd Eckenfels wrote: On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 10:14:10AM +0200, Thomas Viehmann wrote: Debugging anti-virus software should be done by the maintainers thereof. Why would a user need this? i used it many times, for example to find out which archives are checked and which not. In fact I even already wrote bugs for AV scan software because it did not recognized eicar signature inside archives, which where announced. #155485 is such an example. So, how much of the debugging work was downloading the signature file? Thomas, actually I wonder if you talk about Linux or Debian, or if you confuse this with commercial windows packages, which can only be debugged by their vendor. Oh, I thought the advantage of open source was that you could debug by other means than just testing. Indeed, one could claim that the eicar test file is needed particulary when you don't have access to the source. Relly, I'd not make a package of single HTML document for testing browsers' rendering of tables (or whatever), either. Cheers T. P.S.: I don't need CCs. pgpWtpDgiOpaG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Andreas Barth wrote: Marc is doing it the other way: He want an interface to reject a package before substantial work has been spent on it. So there shouldn't be this conflict any more, which would be a good thing. Isn't this why ITPs are usually CCed to debian-devel? Look what has been done to the email ITP, to the mplayer ITP, ... I don't know what that directory name deal is, but basically I have the feeling that ftpmaster is predicatble (in fact reasonable) enough for the public review on -devel to anticipate decisions. No need to bother the ftpmasters with every package where -devel or -mentors or whoever would very accurately identify the problems it would have once it was uploaded. Cheers T. pgpKkXfFPfE6y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 05:22:33PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Mark Brown ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030705 16:05]: On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 02:56:30PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: OK, so basically you think ftpmaster people should spend review each ITP for such global rejection reasons, then? You can't expect this to happen in any remotely timely fashion, at least not with this many ftpmasters and this many hours in a day. Not to mention that it's still possible that a package may have a problem which is not obvious until the package is seen. Nobody said that ftpmaster must see all problems from ITP. But - every problem that is seen at ITP time saves volunteer time for more usefull things. There's no reason an entirely different team of people couldn't do this. The FTP admins occasionally solicit the debian-legal list's opinions on particularly thorny or obnoxious license issues, and I have been personally consulted from time to time as well. So I'd say there's some precedent for this, and I'm not personally in favor of heaping still more work on the FTP admins' plate. I think they'll be more inclined to handle their existing responsibilities in the more transparent manner called for by some developers if the scope of their duties doesn't expand. -- G. Branden Robinson| Communism is just one step on the Debian GNU/Linux | long road from capitalism to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | capitalism. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Russian saying pgpIm8WDIPscR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 01:03:11 +1000, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ITP: google.com Please do so and have it uploaded asap. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. Actually I think ftp-master are having already too much power as a decision instance without real legitimation. Establishing yet another interface for them to block maintainers would need a resolution by the community that we are willing to delegate the job of verifying packages to them. In my situation ftp.masters once rejected a package because of licensing issues (which was ok), but then i reuploaded the package and the rejected it because of a missing (unneeded) configure option to exclude ssl. I think the time of the ftp masters could be spend on other issues without stepping on ppls feet. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thursday 03 July 2003 16:51, Marc Haber wrote: Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. Especially if it is done in Mr. Troup's usual why did you bother me in the first place, mere mortal style. I find that to be a very unfair accusation, since at least to my eyes there was nothing especially unfriendly, unreasonable or otherwise criticizable in James rejection notice. If he had told you that the package was never going to be included for some not entirely obvious reason then I could understand your sentiment, but stating his reasons, and then referring you to a public list for further discussion, (thereby, in my reading at least, implying that while he thinks the package isn't suitable at least yet, public discussion might reveal otherwise) seems quite fair to me. I personally very much value the fact that someone like James whose knowledge and judgment I trust invests so much time in vetting (my) packages for potential omissions or stupidities. Cheers, Yven Greetings Marc, somewhat mad at the moment Hmm, *my* strategy for handling such states of emotional unrest is to wait at least half a day to see how much anger or madness is actually left, since I find that to be an enormous efficiency gain with respect to avoiding lengthy and pointless discussions... ;-) -- Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leist.beldesign.de
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Bernd Eckenfels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In my situation ftp.masters once rejected a package because of licensing
issues (which was ok), but then i reuploaded the package and the rejected it
because of a missing (unneeded) configure option to exclude ssl. I think the
I don't know the specifics of this case but perhaps they were worried
about the possibility of pulling ssl into a GPLed program accidentally?
If that's the case then it's certainly a valid reason to reject the
package.
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmVHI~} [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Hi, In the past years, I have done quite a bit of work with virus scanners on Linux. The company I used to work for has funded most of amavis-ng development before being borged. In the past years, I have found it annoying that the eicar anti-virus testfile is not available as aptable Debian package. Since eicar.com has no license and eicar doesn't seem to be interested in clarifying its license, inclusion of the eicar test string in Debian proper is out of the question, even for non-free. But it is possible to have an eicar-installer package in contrib which is itself dfsg-free and downloads the non-free eicar test string from the Web on installation. After having that installer package rejected by ftpmaster (doesn't make sense to have a 3 KB installer package to install a hundred bytes of code) and been encouraged to take that issue to -devel, I would like to hear other people's opinions. It is my opinion that it would be a good idea to have that installer package in Debian. Heck, if I wouldn't have that opinion, I wouldn't have spent some of my time to build that package. Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. Especially if it is done in Mr. Troup's usual why did you bother me in the first place, mere mortal style. Greetings Marc, somewhat mad at the moment -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Karlsruhe, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
Am Donnerstag, 3. Juli 2003 16:51 schrieb Marc Haber: [...] Additionally, I would like to seriously propose establishing a pre-upload interface to ftpmaster so that a developer could learn that he is writing a package pending rejection after upload _before_ spending time on building that package. I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. [...] Well that's the purpose of ITP-bugs against wnpp I think, because they are CC'd to debian-devel for public review. And since ftpmaster sent you to -devel he would obey the opinion of the list. Tom -- 1024D/8FC03128: 01FA 29EF 7F56 66A8 6596 C501 4322 5D69 8FC0 3128 postfix/src/util/msg.c: msg_panic() 202:abort();/* Die! */ 203:exit(1);/* DIE!! */
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, 03 Jul 2003, Marc Haber wrote: Since eicar.com has no license and eicar doesn't seem to be interested in clarifying its license, inclusion of the eicar test string in Debian proper is out of the question, even for non-free. Ick. They are included in the amavisd-new _source_ packages. We don't package them in the binary packages, but... From http://www.eicar.org/anti_virus_test_file.htm, I get that while they do not display a license, they explicitly allow us to distribute it. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Re: eicar.com installer in Debian, and pre-upload interface to ftpmaster
On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 04:51:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: In the past years, I have found it annoying that the eicar anti-virus testfile is not available as aptable Debian package. Why is this annoying? The virus cannot be detected without it? I find it disturbingly impolite to say sorry, we don't want your volunteer work _after_ the work has been done. Especially if it is done in Mr. Troup's usual why did you bother me in the first place, mere mortal style. Frankly, with this particular one, I entirely fail to see why you ignore several perfectly valid reasons laid out in the reasonably polite (if a bit dazzled) rejection notice and go off ranting instead. (I don't want to quote them without permission.) -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
