mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Hi,
with wheezy i get more and more annoyed by the "(deleted)" renaming of
mountpoints when nfs server are unreachable.
With squeeze i automatically unmounted nfs servers on suspend. With
wheezy this doesnt work as the real mountpoint cant be found.
The kernel renames the mountpoint from e.g. "/nfsmnt" to "/nfsmnt (deleted)"
and as /etc/mtab is a link to /proc/mounts today there is no way to
determin the real mountpoint.
Trying to unmount "/nfsmnt (deleted)" returns an "is not mounted (according to
mtab)"
IMHO i see 3 bugs at least in this:
a) Renaming of mountpoints in the kernel - Appending some random string
might clash with other mountpoints - probably intentional.
b) /etc/mtab would list the real mountpoint if under control of mount.
Now as we have a) and /etc/mtab beeing a symlink to /proc/mount we
have broken data in /etc/mtab too.
c) mount has a broken parser for mtab/mounts.
Real life example:
flo@p2:~$ cat /proc/mounts | grep nfs4
pobox:/scratch/local /scratch/pobox\040(deleted) nfs4
rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,vers=4,rsize=262144,wsize=262144,namlen=255,hard,proto=tcp,port=0,timeo=600,retrans=2,sec=sys,clientaddr=192.168.177.145,minorversion=0,local_lock=none,addr=192.168.177.1
0 0
I cant unmount the original mount not with -l nor with -f - both hang.
The real problem is though that i am unable to mount new nfs or cifs
shares as mount hangs in a readlink:
readlink("/sys/kernel/debug", 0x7f59ac90, 4096) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid
argument)
readlink("/scratch", 0x7f59ac90, 4096) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid argument)
readlink("/scratch/pobox", ^C
Flo
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Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
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Re: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Hi Florian, nice to read from you again! (even though... see below :) On Dienstag, 4. Juni 2013, Florian Lohoff wrote: > I cant unmount the original mount not with -l nor with -f - both hang. > The real problem is though that i am unable to mount new nfs or cifs > shares as mount hangs in a readlink: why don't you file bugs? Ranting on debian-devel@ can be a start, but bugs are the real thing. As you know ;) So, #? cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:52:13AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: > Hi Florian, > > nice to read from you again! (even though... see below :) > > On Dienstag, 4. Juni 2013, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > I cant unmount the original mount not with -l nor with -f - both hang. > > The real problem is though that i am unable to mount new nfs or cifs > > shares as mount hangs in a readlink: > > why don't you file bugs? Ranting on debian-devel@ can be a start, but bugs > are > the real thing. As you know ;) > > So, #? Bug #711183 umount parser for /proc/mounts broken on stale nfs mount (gets renamed to "/mnt/point (deleted)") Bug #711184 mount should not stat mountpoints on mount Bug #711187 linux-image-3.2.0-4-amd64: kernel should not rename mountpoint if nfs server is dead/unreachable But ranting is much easier then opening bugs and wading through thousands of bugs partially 10+ Years old and still unfixed. Wheezy is btw the Debian release i have ranted the most about till now. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Hi Florian, On Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2013, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > So, #? > Bug #711183 umount parser for /proc/mounts broken on stale nfs mount (gets > renamed to "/mnt/point (deleted)") Bug #711184 mount should not stat > mountpoints on mount > Bug #711187 linux-image-3.2.0-4-amd64: kernel should not rename mountpoint > if nfs server is dead/unreachable cool, thanks! > But ranting is much easier then opening bugs and wading through thousands > of bugs partially 10+ Years old and still unfixed. sure, but filing bugs is usually the first step in getting things fixed :-) > Wheezy is btw the Debian release i have ranted the most about till now. well, this could be related to Wheezy, or to you, or to the people you've been talking with, or something else, or a combination... I've switched 3 users from Squeeze to Wheezy in the last 2 weeks, and also to Gnome 3 btw, and they all *love* it. And I also must say, I'm quite impressed, Debian on the desktop has come a long way. So, IOW YMMV. Getting 684998 fixed was also awesome and just in time :) cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Hi, On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 12:10:11PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: > Hi Florian, > well, this could be related to Wheezy, or to you, or to the people you've > been > talking with, or something else, or a combination... > > I've switched 3 users from Squeeze to Wheezy in the last 2 weeks, and also to > Gnome 3 btw, and they all *love* it. And I also must say, I'm quite > impressed, > Debian on the desktop has come a long way. So, IOW YMMV. We are 4 people in the room and we all hate Gnome3. KDE is too bloated and xfce4 is too minimal. We all switched away from gnome-terminal to roxterm as gnome-terminal is full of resizing bugs. Multihead in Gnome3 is broken to no return. Backdrop image/gradient resizing/zooming is broken if different resolution heads. ~/.config/monitors.xml is nice but does not work at all - so you need to set your primary screen (in case its the external one) EVERY SINGLE TIME you plug in a monitor. If you do this the icons you have on your desktop partially disappear to anywhere away from the visible area. There is no way to get them back. So using nautilus to manage your backdrop window is unusable. cairo-dock does not detect primary screen change so needs to be killed and restarted. Lets not begin talking about the systray stuff and all people complainig about not beeing able to see pidgins icon anymore and though missing messages. This has all been working in gnome2/squeeze and simple stopped working and people try to convince me and others that Gnome3 is the best since sliced bread. Its NOT ! Gnome3 is a huge step back for my productivity. It might be the right thing for the swipe-zoom-multitouch-facebook kids of today who cant differentiate between running application and launcher buttons. I am a technical guy - if i press on a launcher button i meant to get a new instance of the application and not help to find my application on the 8 viewports - i know how to use alt-tab. Automounting usb sticks is a nice thing but why on earth does the popup on the bottom of the screen not disappear after some time? No thanks i dont want nautilus but the 2 options are "Open with Files" or "Eject" - None of them - I want you to shut up and close the popup. There is no close icon - so you klick into the popup somewhere not hitting the 2 options and it disappears - WTF?!?!? And then we have a bunch of Kernel thermal issues which every second day or so cause reboots an hour into the day because of CPU overheat issues after resume. Suspend/Resume issues because of the above nfs/cifs issues - so for some random issues my suspend hangs every 3rd day so i end up with a overly hot and empty notebook when i am home. Squeeze suspended reliably for years - I NEVER had to look after it. And now i am searching for a keyboard setup preseeding issue for the autoinstall infrastructure we have. It seems its completely broken, at least i have after 3 days not found a deterministic way of preseeding a de-latin1-nodeadkeys for console and X. For me wheezy is the worst of all Debian release i have been using since bo. Yes - Debian came a long way for Linux on the Desktop - but Wheezy is 2 steps back then Squeenze was. And yes i know - i can switch to $software for any random issue and fix it - but this is more or less a basic Debian/Gnome3 installation and my user experience not so positive. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 02:24 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: well, this could be related to Wheezy, or to you, or to the people you've been talking with, or something else, or a combination... I've switched 3 users from Squeeze to Wheezy in the last 2 weeks, and also to Gnome 3 btw, and they all *love* it. And I also must say, I'm quite impressed, Debian on the desktop has come a long way. So, IOW YMMV. We are 4 people in the room and we all hate Gnome3. KDE is too bloated and xfce4 is too minimal. We all switched away from gnome-terminal to roxterm as gnome-terminal is full of resizing bugs. We're working to get Mate into Debian [1-2], so you will be back on your beloved GNOME2 desktop in Debian Jessie and newer :). Adrian > [1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mate-common.html > [2] http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mate-doc-utils.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af34dc.8090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi 2013/6/5 Florian Lohoff > > For me wheezy is the worst of all Debian release i have been > using since bo. /signed Just one example to add to flo's the upgrade from squeeze to wheezy, was not a clean one. I've had to install a package (some lib-gd-annoying.deb), that wasn't installed before and wasn't able to install because of some unresolved debs. Greetings, Björn
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 02:39 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: 2013/6/5 Florian Lohoff mailto:f...@zz.de>> For me wheezy is the worst of all Debian release i have been using since bo. /signed Just one example to add to flo's Really? I think it's one of the best releases ever. Multi-Arch alone is worth the upgrade. And you can't blame Debian for GNOME3, this was a decision made upstream. In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. For example, Debian kept gdm 2.20 for a very long time to continue to provide XDMCP support. the upgrade from squeeze to wheezy, was not a clean one. I've had to install a package (some lib-gd-annoying.deb), that wasn't installed before and wasn't able to install because of some unresolved debs. Honestly, what do you expect. It's simply impossible to always guarantee a perfect upgrade from one release to another. You aren't just upgrading the core of the operating system, but a huge set of user applications. Plus, I would have honestly appreciated that if more people (especially the ones who complain now) would have helped in finding and smashing RC bugs during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, many the RC bugs were related to Squeeze-to-Wheezy upgrade issues. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af3a31.2020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi, 2013/6/5 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz > > On 06/05/2013 02:39 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: >> >> 2013/6/5 Florian Lohoff mailto:f...@zz.de>> >> >> >> >> For me wheezy is the worst of all Debian release i have been >> using since bo. >> >> >> /signed >> >> Just one example to add to flo's > > > Really? I think it's one of the best releases ever. Multi-Arch alone is > worth the upgrade. And you can't blame Debian for GNOME3, this was > a decision made upstream. Uh uh, yeah, my users are so excited about multi-arch. Upstream who? Who made this decision? "Debian is a free operating system (OS) for your computer." So gnome said Debian had to use GNOME3 for default? Interesting. Until Wheezy I was convinced that Debian was a rock stable OS. Well, so it is yet, because the use of GNOME3 has a stony habit. > In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries > to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. yes, "it has always been". As we said. >> the upgrade from squeeze to wheezy, was not a clean one. >> I've had to install a package (some lib-gd-annoying.deb), that wasn't >> installed before and wasn't able to install because of some unresolved >> debs. > > > Honestly, what do you expect. It's simply impossible to always guarantee > a perfect upgrade from one release to another. You aren't just upgrading > the core of the operating system, but a huge set of user applications. Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range of users. I was also confused, because I could really find fast a workkaround. So, there was no reason, that this wasn't fixed on release. > Plus, I would have honestly appreciated that if more people (especially > the ones who complain now) would have helped in finding and smashing > RC bugs during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, many the RC bugs were > related to Squeeze-to-Wheezy upgrade issues. I've done a few. Especially on Samba, but I rembered there was a bug, which was fixed on upstream, could be fixed in debian and was found again on a upgrade (just in debian; not upstream). So yeah, I've been also through some pain and don't just rant here. Greetings, Björn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAGMPS57yL1UiXCh1HeWFX-=gykv+l2mm8w-fzcy5psy_djg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Le mercredi 05 juin 2013 à 15:16 +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit : > For example, Debian kept gdm 2.20 for a very long time to continue > to provide XDMCP support. No. We kept it because there was no clean upgrade path to version 2.30 (which still supports the XDMCP horror). Almost nothing justifies using XDMCP nowadays, except for *extremely specific* setups. That said, we provide GNOME Classic in wheezy for good reasons. Some of Florian’s concerns are clearly among them. Another past example is PulseAudio, which we felt was not ready for squeeze, and which was clearly ready for wheezy (except, again, for a handful of specific setups). Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1370441944.7985.479.camel@pi0307572
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Wed, June 5, 2013 15:34, Bjoern Meier wrote:
>>> the upgrade from squeeze to wheezy, was not a clean one.
>>> I've had to install a package (some lib-gd-annoying.deb), that wasn't
>>> installed before and wasn't able to install because of some unresolved
>>> debs.
>>
>>
>> Honestly, what do you expect. It's simply impossible to always guarantee
>> a perfect upgrade from one release to another. You aren't just upgrading
>> the core of the operating system, but a huge set of user applications.
>
> Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to
> say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range
> of users.
Debian as a volunteer project relies on input of users to test all
scenarios. I'm sure exactly this combination was tested with a wide range
of users. However, your problem description is so vague ("some
lib-gd-annoying.deb" ?) that it's not useful to us to determine what the
problem in your situation could be so we can solve it.
A "rant" -as per the subject- does not go far to improve our system. A bug
report with relevant details, does. So I strongly suggest that anyone
encountering issues focuses their energy on the latter.
Cheers,
Thijs
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Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> > Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to
> > say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range
> > of users.
>
> Debian as a volunteer project relies on input of users to test all
> scenarios. I'm sure exactly this combination was tested with a wide range
> of users. However, your problem description is so vague ("some
> lib-gd-annoying.deb" ?) that it's not useful to us to determine what the
> problem in your situation could be so we can solve it.
>
+1 Please fill the bugs or at least show the exact problem which you have
encountered. And as usual you would be most welcome to come and help with
(at least) PHP testing, triaging, etc., etc.
We would love to have more testing during the freeze and some has happened,
but you cannot expect us to create all possible scenarios. However we could
still fix the bugs related to upgrade in .point releases. (In fact there's
already updated php5 waiting in the s-p-u).
Always please remember that some of us gets paid to do the packaging, some
of us gets some time to spend on Debian (but it's not my primary job), and
some of us are volunteers which spends our evenings, nights and weekends
taking care of the packages.
> I was also confused, because I could really find fast a workkaround.
Is there a bug report for this issue you are talking about?
> So, there was no reason, that this wasn't fixed on release.
There might be a plenty of reasons. Maybe the issue isn't so simple, maybe
the maintainer have a life, job, etc., or maybe nobody has reported the
bug...?
O.
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Ondřej Surý
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi,
2013/6/5 Ondřej Surý :
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
>>
>> > Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to
>> > say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range
>> > of users.
>>
>> Debian as a volunteer project relies on input of users to test all
>> scenarios. I'm sure exactly this combination was tested with a wide range
>> of users. However, your problem description is so vague ("some
>> lib-gd-annoying.deb" ?) that it's not useful to us to determine what the
>> problem in your situation could be so we can solve it.
>
>
> +1 Please fill the bugs or at least show the exact problem which you have
> encountered. And as usual you would be most welcome to come and help with
> (at least) PHP testing, triaging, etc., etc.
Nope, there were already bugs postet, this was where I found the
workaround. #706869 was another I ran into it.
"Both these symptoms are expected and documented in NEWS.Debian, and
displayed during upgrade if you have apt-listchanges installed. Please
follow the steps in that file." Just annoying. Documented, but
annoying.
I can't find the other bug, but on the day I found it there and I
could help myself. But: just annoying and unnecessary annoying.
It does not help yelling "please fill a bug" or "help smash a bug!",
if there is a bug and people with more knowledge about the topic than
me are involved.
Just don't glorify wheezy, it has it's own bugs. I don't expect
anything else. But I expect, that our time we use to build, install
and maintain debian was as equal appreciated as the DMs or DDs. Thank
you.
Greetings,
Björn
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Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 03:34 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: So gnome said Debian had to use GNOME3 for default? Interesting. I don't understand. You can easily set the default xsession through update-alternatives. We are installing MATE as well and have set it as the default session. No complaints about the desktop since the migration to Wheezy. In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. yes, "it has always been". As we said. It still is :). Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range of users. Then again, you could have helped us. People are complaining on one hand that the releases take forever and on the other hand, now complain the quality isn't up to their standards. I was also confused, because I could really find fast a workkaround. So, there was no reason, that this wasn't fixed on release. Well, did you file a bug report? Plus, I would have honestly appreciated that if more people (especially the ones who complain now) would have helped in finding and smashing RC bugs during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, many the RC bugs were related to Squeeze-to-Wheezy upgrade issues. I've done a few. Especially on Samba, but I rembered there was a bug, which was fixed on upstream, could be fixed in debian and was found again on a upgrade (just in debian; not upstream). So yeah, I've been also through some pain and don't just rant here. Do you have a link? It's not that we're not taking complaints seriously. If there was actually a bug report and it, indeed, wasn't fixed then you're right to complain. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af6962.3010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi, 2013/6/5 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : > On 06/05/2013 03:34 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: >> >> So gnome said Debian had to use GNOME3 for default? Interesting. > > > I don't understand. You can easily set the default xsession through > update-alternatives. We are installing MATE as well and have set > it as the default session. No complaints about the desktop since > the migration to Wheezy. > > >>> In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries >>> to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. >> >> >> yes, "it has always been". As we said. > It still is :). You striped my other comment. What it is now? A decision of upstream or not? > >> Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to >> say. >> But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range of >> users. > > > Then again, you could have helped us. People are complaining on one > hand that the releases take forever and on the other hand, now > complain the quality isn't up to their standards. >> I was also confused, because I could really find fast a workkaround. >> So, there was no reason, that this wasn't fixed on release. > > > Well, did you file a bug report? [...] > Do you have a link? It's not that we're not taking complaints seriously. > > If there was actually a bug report and it, indeed, wasn't fixed then > you're right to complain. if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your questions already answered. Greetings, Björn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAGMPS55+nWBOMmmd=r9ncyfawseiktfmz3dc-x98ahgiw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 07:24 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: You striped my other comment. What it is now? A decision of upstream or not? I stripped it, because I wasn't considering it a valid argument. No one keeps you from setting your default xsession and you actually should do that when deploying Debian in a large computing environment where you are the site administrator. Are you going around and install all your machines manually using the Debian Installer? Usually, people use automatic installation systems like FAI (like we do at our department) which allow you to set things like the default session and even let you avoid GNOME3 completely. If you want, your users will never see GNOME3. I am sorry, but you can't blame Debian if you are unwilling to customize the configuration to fulfill your needs. if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your questions already answered. Again, Debian having chosen GNOME as the default desktop will never be a problem in a corporate environment if you as the site administrator create a configuration for your needs. The decision to turn GNOME into that what it is now was made upstream, not in Debian. Debian has just chosen to stay with GNOME as the default desktop when performing the default installation as it has been like for quite some time. And, again, changing the default desktop is a no brainer: > update-alternatives --set x-session-manager /usr/bin/mate-session Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af862c.2040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi, 2013/6/5 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : > On 06/05/2013 07:24 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: >> >> You striped my other comment. What it is now? A decision of upstream or >> not? > > > I stripped it, because I wasn't considering it a valid argument. No one > keeps you from setting your default xsession and you actually should do > that when deploying Debian in a large computing environment where you > are the site administrator. Ah what? You are confusing something, my skill to do something has nothing to do with that I have to do it. I really don't understand this decision. Gnome3 was controverse discussed in many media, so "Take it or make your move and change it?" It is that hard, to build a dialog and ask for a desktop? You have the choice, but we already made it for you". Just let Gnome3 as default on radio buttons if you really think debian user are too confused by this. I remenber, that I complain on this list about how few have the intention to understand and maintain they own system. Now I understand how got this so far. Debian seems to grow as a system that doesn't make it necessary to decide or to understand. At least some want to see debian as this. Meh. > Are you going around and install all your machines manually using the > Debian Installer? Usually, people use automatic installation systems > like FAI (like we do at our department) which allow you to set > things like the default session and even let you avoid GNOME3 > completely. If you want, your users will never see GNOME3. Yes, yes of course I do. Because all our debian systems are just servers, not workstations. All our servers could be re-install with the documentation belonging to them. All of them are customizations. To do so I tried to keep packages as original as I could and maintain the rest with scripts, because its easier to maintain (to be honest I adept it from the deb-file: keep upstream and modify with scripts). So, no FAI is needed on my site. Again: it is NOT my problem to solve any problem or tasks of customization. My Problem is just: the more I have to customize, the more time I have to spent, the more time I have to spent, the more expensive it is. So yes, all unnecessary changes are annoying. Not to mention, that I know that software changes over time. > I am sorry, but you can't blame Debian if you are unwilling to customize > the configuration to fulfill your needs. > > >> if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your >> questions already answered. > > > Again, Debian having chosen GNOME as the default desktop will never > be a problem in a corporate environment if you as the site administrator > create a configuration for your needs. > > The decision to turn GNOME into that what it is now was made upstream, > not in Debian. Debian has just chosen to stay with GNOME as the default > desktop when performing the default installation as it has been like > for quite some time. And, again, changing the default desktop is a > no brainer: Ok, you asking me If i filled a bug. I said, you have your answers already and you just bring your no-brainer-gnome3-argument again? If you don't want to read my Email spare your typing. If not: EOD. Greetings, Björn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAGMPS54qCD0jWgPQH4OcX7DdL3}yg5icccje9o938nqw5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 09:15 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: Ah what? You are confusing something, my skill to do something has nothing to do with that I have to do it. Well, you said you are deploying Debian in a corporate environment so I assume you are doing some heavy custom configuration anyways and thus it shouldn't be a problem to change the default xsession as well. I really don't understand this decision. Gnome3 was controverse discussed in many media, so "Take it or make your move and change it?" It is that hard, to build a dialog and ask for a desktop? You have the choice, but we already made it for you". There is no dialog to select the default desktop as only one default desktop will fit onto the first disk of the offline installation medium if I remember correctly. I remenber, that I complain on this list about how few have the intention to understand and maintain they own system. Now I understand how got this so far. Debian seems to grow as a system that doesn't make it necessary to decide or to understand. At least some want to see debian as this. Meh. Debian *is* a system that makes decision necessary. Just currently not the way you would like to see it. No one says it won't change in the future. Maybe we settle with Mate as the default desktop in the future, who knows. So, no FAI is needed on my site. Again: it is NOT my problem to solve any problem or tasks of customization. What? Really? It is not your problem to do your custom configuration? Seriously, I have no idea what you are complaining about. If you use the default installation without the efforts of a custom, corporate configuration, it is not Debian's problem. Using an automatic installation system like FAI is absolutely mandatory in my opinion, no one wants to install >500 machines manually. When we install new servers or desktops, we create a new host in our host database, hook up the machine to the network and run a fully automatic installation over the network. Everything else is just a waste of time and resources. I can't believe that anyone would ever not use an automated installation system in such an environment. My Problem is just: the more I have to customize, the more time I have to spent, the more time I have to spent, the more expensive it is. So yes, all unnecessary changes are annoying. Not to mention, that I know that software changes over time. If you do the customization properly, the time invested is worth the results. We spent some time creating the custom configuration, but after that the whole setup is working and can be installed with nearly zero efforts of administration. I am sorry, but you can't blame Debian if you are unwilling to customize the configuration to fulfill your needs. if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your questions already answered. Again, Debian having chosen GNOME as the default desktop will never be a problem in a corporate environment if you as the site administrator create a configuration for your needs. The decision to turn GNOME into that what it is now was made upstream, not in Debian. Debian has just chosen to stay with GNOME as the default desktop when performing the default installation as it has been like for quite some time. And, again, changing the default desktop is a no brainer: Ok, you asking me If i filled a bug. I said, you have your answers already and you just bring your no-brainer-gnome3-argument again? If you don't want to read my Email spare your typing. If not: EOD. As I said, I am deploying Debian in a large corporate environment myself so I would understand your claims if they were justified, but, alas they aren't. There is no need to be huffy and issue a "EOD" if you are unwilling to invest some time yourself and customize the configuration. Debian simply can't meet all needs with one standard shipping configuration. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af956e.9080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
Hi, On 06/05/2013 09:15 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: > Gnome3 was controverse discussed in many media, so > "Take it or make your move and change it?" It is that hard, to build a > dialog and ask for a desktop? You have the choice, but we already made > it for you". if you think, it is easy, why there is no attached patch in your email, which can be discussed? IMHO Gnome3 is nice and makes the work faster. Cheers, Anton signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/06/2013 03:15 AM, Bjoern Meier wrote: > It is that hard, to build a dialog and ask for a desktop? I don't think it would be that hard, though nobody did it. You know that Debian is driven by volunteers only, right? So if you really want something to happen, the best way is to do it. We are a the beginning of the development cycle for Jessie. Now is the perfect time to implement such a feature. Though, by doing it, make sure you take the proper dialogs warning that things will need to be downloaded form network if the default desktop isn't selected. Feel free to contribute it. I would welcome it. I too, feel like its a shame that there's no dialog to choose which desktop you want (even if we have specialized CDs, I prefer the netinst ones, and there, such a dialog would be a very good thing). Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51b02500.20...@debian.org
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi, 2013/6/6 Thomas Goirand : > On 06/06/2013 03:15 AM, Bjoern Meier wrote: >> It is that hard, to build a dialog and ask for a desktop? > > I don't think it would be that hard, though nobody did it. You know that > Debian is driven by volunteers only, right? So if you really want > something to happen, the best way is to do it. We are a the beginning of > the development cycle for Jessie. Now is the perfect time to implement > such a feature. > > Though, by doing it, make sure you take the proper dialogs warning that > things will need to be downloaded form network if the default desktop > isn't selected. > > Feel free to contribute it. I would welcome it. I too, feel like its a > shame that there's no dialog to choose which desktop you want (even if > we have specialized CDs, I prefer the netinst ones, and there, such a > dialog would be a very good thing). That is a brainstorming I like to have. Maybe, it would be enough if only netinst have this dialog, otherwise one could fork Debian (again. heh. ;) ) and provide various DVDs with desktops. Wait, there is Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Whateverbuntu. seems like a dialog for netinst is it? I thought already to get involved in the installer. I'll think about to work out how could this be done. Sounds not like a hard work. Anyway, Debian was my favourite on server, without any desktops. So my point with the upgrade-bugs is still open (oh and don't ask about a bug link, because I provided this info already). I'm at a point where I have to ask myself if I want debian on server again. If you would ask my users, they would say "we had our problems with file-server". Over the time I learned to work out patches with upstream and link them on the samba-list AND to save patches in documentation because there is a high chance, that a fixed bug comes up in debian again. Over the years I had a lot of fights with co-workers, supervisors and - of course - users, why I hang myself on linux. Linux is still there, so I think I got some points there, but in my opinion life's: getting harder. That is not a debian only problem, the problem - IMHO - is linux (as the kernel itself and tool-distributions) is getting fat and kills his own advantages. Maybe my rant was at the wrong address. I don't know, debian is my crush. So, I would hate it to see her getting fat. She would be still lovely, but couldn't keep the pace and I don't want to see her having a heart desease. ;) Greeting, Björn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cagmps55aly6x+fgpy4cujuwf_qbm4t5b9mvc93kxw6cvxxv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Jo, 06 iun 13, 13:58:24, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > Feel free to contribute it. I would welcome it. I too, feel like its a > shame that there's no dialog to choose which desktop you want (even if > we have specialized CDs, I prefer the netinst ones, and there, such a > dialog would be a very good thing). You are of course aware of the boot menu: Advanced Options -> Alternative Desktop Environment. Other ways to implement it without yet another thing to choose from: drop most tasks from d-i (like print server, mail server, ssh server, etc.) and list the various desktop environments instead. Of course, then there is the decision of which one gets selected by default... Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
hi, 2013/6/6 Andrei POPESCU : > On Jo, 06 iun 13, 13:58:24, Thomas Goirand wrote: >> >> Feel free to contribute it. I would welcome it. I too, feel like its a >> shame that there's no dialog to choose which desktop you want (even if >> we have specialized CDs, I prefer the netinst ones, and there, such a >> dialog would be a very good thing). > > You are of course aware of the boot menu: Advanced Options -> > Alternative Desktop Environment. Yes, I was. But isn't really helping,because it's not that obvious. > Other ways to implement it without yet another thing to choose from: > drop most tasks from d-i (like print server, mail server, ssh server, > etc.) and list the various desktop environments instead. Of course, then > there is the decision of which one gets selected by default... This is really good idea. all you need is there, not much to change and is a 100% solution. Greetings, Björn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAGMPS57LKyefc5Y3n2hhgM5yNfmJLBhMvKBUGrA9e7a+6ctZ=w...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 04:19:04PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: > That said, we provide GNOME Classic in wheezy for good reasons. Some of > Florian’s concerns are clearly among them. I have tried that and the annoyances with the systray, multihead and nautilus manages backdrop are the same. I am not per se against Gnome3 - Some stuff like the launcher from the win keys are perfect for me, although i think its unusable without cairo-dock. But why on earth did very simple thing like multihead management break? There are tons of complaints about the systray stuff and nobody seems to care. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/06/2013 15:31, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 04:19:04PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: That said, we provide GNOME Classic in wheezy for good reasons. Some of Florian’s concerns are clearly among them. I have tried that and the annoyances with the systray, multihead and nautilus manages backdrop are the same. I am not per se against Gnome3 - Some stuff like the launcher from the win keys are perfect for me, although i think its unusable without cairo-dock. But why on earth did very simple thing like multihead management break? Very simple thing ‽ Clearly, you have no idea. Sincerly, -- Jean-Christophe Dubacq -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51b0a8b5.9010...@free.fr
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
2013/6/6 Florian Lohoff : > On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 04:19:04PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: >> That said, we provide GNOME Classic in wheezy for good reasons. Some of >> Florian’s concerns are clearly among them. > > I have tried that and the annoyances with the systray, multihead and > nautilus manages backdrop are the same. > > I am not per se against Gnome3 - Some stuff like the launcher from the > win keys are perfect for me, although i think its unusable without > cairo-dock. > > But why on earth did very simple thing like multihead management break? Oooh, that is not simple at all! (It shouldn't break, but it's quite complex...) > There are tons of complaints about the systray stuff and nobody seems to > care. People do care, the more recent GNOME versions received tons of improvements for the systray, which will of course be available in Debian too, very soon (if you're not using Experimental). So, I assume that GNOME3 will go through some more iterations and be a very usable desktop then :) And even now, you can customize it, OR just use the fallback mode, which provides a GNOME2-like interface. Cheers, Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caknhny-5v+5cvrbr6yi1yovdm7hxto740b7ovdg5s-a4f3j...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 05:20:21PM +0200, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: > >But why on earth did very simple thing like multihead management break? > > Very simple thing ‽ Clearly, you have no idea. It was functional and working for me in Squeeze it doesnt now. Wheezy is supposed to use monitors.conf - isnt it? I like the possibility to have multiple location depending monitor setups but i guess my IQ is not enough to understand how this is supposed to work. It simply doesnt for me and after a week staring at code and monitor.xml stuff i simply gave up and wrote 10 lines of shell script. #698340 - No answer for 6 Months - Way before release #698781 - Same here ... Now what do the less skilled people? Are you telling them to use Ubuntu? So now i manually run shell scripts which run xrandr commands and kill half the desktop and restart it because primary screen changes on docking at work. WTF?!?! Its 2013 and we went through xinerama and randr extension to get this working. I simply say Wheezy/Gnome3 is a step back because basic functionality was removed. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/06/2013 02:25 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: > the problem - IMHO - is > linux (as the kernel itself and tool-distributions) is getting fat and > kills his own advantages. Time to try Hurd or kFreeBSD? :) (note: I'd like to have more time to invest in them myself, and I perfectly understand that not a lot of people do: life is short...) On 06/06/2013 02:25 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: > Maybe my rant was at the wrong address. Well, this list is debian-devel. We discuss and try to help each other so that we can improve things. Ranting indeed, doesn't improve Debian or fix the problems. Adding the dialogue for selecting which kind of desktop you want in d-i would be a way more productive, IMO. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51b0ccac.3060...@debian.org
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/06/2013 03:11 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > You are of course aware of the boot menu: Advanced Options -> > Alternative Desktop Environment. Yes. But it should be in d-i, when you choose to install a desktop. Not in syslinux, when you are supposed to choose what kind of installer to start. It's as if you had the option to shutdown your computer after clicking on a menu where it's written "start". Oh wait... :) Anyway, right now it is confusing, and it is easy for a newbie to miss these options. Just my 2 cents (since I don't have the time to work on it), Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51b0cf24.8090...@debian.org
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 03:31:59PM +0200, Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 04:19:04PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: > > That said, we provide GNOME Classic in wheezy for good reasons. Some of > > Florian’s concerns are clearly among them. > > I have tried that and the annoyances with the systray, multihead and > nautilus manages backdrop are the same. Did you check 3.8? There were quit some changes in areas you complained about (e.g. notification handling, systray and multi head). -- Guido > I am not per se against Gnome3 - Some stuff like the launcher from the > win keys are perfect for me, although i think its unusable without > cairo-dock. > > But why on earth did very simple thing like multihead management break? > > There are tons of complaints about the systray stuff and nobody seems to > care. > > Flo > -- > Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130607221051.ga15...@bogon.sigxcpu.org
