Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
Package: tzdata Version: 2008a-1 Severity: whishlist The name of "Saigon" (Vietnam) was changed in 1975, after the liberation from U.S.A., to the name of the Vietnamese President (Hồ Chí Minh) at that time: Ho Chi Minh City. This city was, when the time zone information was created, the "main city" for Vietnam from the U.S.A. point of view. But now the "main city" from the Vietnamese government point of view really is "Hanoi" and so the time zone name really should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi". Best regards, J.C. -- Jean Christophe "プログフ" ANDRÉ — Responsable technique régional Bureau Asie-Pacifique (BAP) — http://asie-pacifique.auf.org/ Agence universitaire de la Francophonie (AuF) — http://www.auf.org/ Adresse postale : AUF, 21 Lê Thánh Tông, T.T. Hoàn Kiếm, Hà Nội, Việt Nam Tél. : +84 4 9331108 Fax : +84 4 8247383 Mobile : +84 91 3248747 ⎧ Note personnelle : merci d'éviter de m'envoyer des fichiers PowerPoint ⎫ ⎩ ou Word, voir http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.fr.html ⎭ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 04:23:20PM +0700, Jean Christophe André wrote: > The name of "Saigon" (Vietnam) was changed in 1975, after the liberation > from U.S.A., to the name of the Vietnamese President (Hồ Chí Minh) at > that time: Ho Chi Minh City. The comment from upstream is # Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh, but it's too long. # We'll stick with the traditional name for now. > This city was, when the time zone information was created, the "main > city" for Vietnam from the U.S.A. point of view. But now the "main city" > from the Vietnamese government point of view really is "Hanoi" and so > the time zone name really should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi". You may wish to start participating in this mailing list thread to convey your opinion: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/2122
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
Clint Adams a écrit : > You may wish to start participating in this mailing list thread to convey > your opinion: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/2122 > Thanks for this link! As Martin Pitt already told us on Launchpad[1] (before I tried to go upstream step-by-step), people from tzdata have good arguments to keep going with current rules, which define time zone names using the "most populous" cities. Hopefully they already agreed to change "Saigon" to "Ho_Chi_Minh", but there's not enough space to append "_City" to the name since the POSIX limit is 14 characters for each path component. So as the last resort option, I'm trying to let "Hanoi" be a "link" to "Ho_Chi_Minh" so one can choose either one. Not sure if they'll agree on that since it requires more management on their side, especially if "everybody" start to ask to add link for the Capitol City... Regards, J.C. [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tzdata/+bug/121540/comments/13 -- Jean Christophe "プログフ" ANDRÉ — Responsable technique régional Bureau Asie-Pacifique (BAP) — http://asie-pacifique.auf.org/ Agence universitaire de la Francophonie (AuF) — http://www.auf.org/ Adresse postale : AUF, 21 Lê Thánh Tông, T.T. Hoàn Kiếm, Hà Nội, Việt Nam Tél. : +84 4 9331108 Fax : +84 4 8247383 Mobile : +84 91 3248747 ⎧ Note personnelle : merci d'éviter de m'envoyer des fichiers PowerPoint ⎫ ⎩ ou Word, voir http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.fr.html ⎭ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 05:58:33PM +0700, Jean Christophe André wrote: > As Martin Pitt already told us on Launchpad[1] (before I tried to go > upstream step-by-step), people from tzdata have good arguments to keep > going with current rules, which define time zone names using the "most > populous" cities. It looks as though that mailing list discussion is still going. > Hopefully they already agreed to change "Saigon" to "Ho_Chi_Minh", but > there's not enough space to append "_City" to the name since the POSIX > limit is 14 characters for each path component. > > So as the last resort option, I'm trying to let "Hanoi" be a "link" to > "Ho_Chi_Minh" so one can choose either one. Not sure if they'll agree on > that since it requires more management on their side, especially if > "everybody" start to ask to add link for the Capitol City... Currently we remove such links from the debconf question, so if upstream goes that route, we would need to make it a special case as well.
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
Clint Adams a écrit : > It looks as though that mailing list discussion is still going. > Yep! I'm following it and I've just sent a closing message for what I asked at first, but it may continue on other points rose in that thread... > Currently we remove such links from the debconf question, so if upstream goes > that route, we would need to make it a special case as well. > Ok. In fact I better understand the tzdata idea now so I will suggest another way: 1) change "Asian/Saigon" to "Asian/Ho_Chi_Minh" (without "_City" to respect POSIX constraints) ; 2) in the user interface, so in the debconf question, propose "Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi" instead of "Ho_Chi_Minh". As far as I understand, tzdata maintainers are already taking 1) in consideration. As for 2), would it be feasible/reasonable ? And should we continue in this bug report or close this one as soon as tzdata maintainers have made the change and open a new one about proposing multiple city names for each time zone? -- Jean Christophe "プログフ" ANDRÉ — Responsable technique régional Bureau Asie-Pacifique (BAP) — http://asie-pacifique.auf.org/ Agence universitaire de la Francophonie (AuF) — http://www.auf.org/ Adresse postale : AUF, 21 Lê Thánh Tông, T.T. Hoàn Kiếm, Hà Nội, Việt Nam Tél. : +84 4 9331108 Fax : +84 4 8247383 Mobile : +84 91 3248747 ⎧ Note personnelle : merci d'éviter de m'envoyer des fichiers PowerPoint ⎫ ⎩ ou Word, voir http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.fr.html ⎭ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 03:35:19PM +0700, Jean Christophe André wrote: > Ok. In fact I better understand the tzdata idea now so I will suggest > another way: > 1) change "Asian/Saigon" to "Asian/Ho_Chi_Minh" (without "_City" to > respect POSIX constraints) ; I believe this is scheduled to happen upstream tomorrow. > 2) in the user interface, so in the debconf question, propose "Ho Chi > Minh City, Hanoi" instead of "Ho_Chi_Minh". The way things work with the current setup is that for each language, there is a pair like this: msgid "Saigon" msgstr "Saïgon" The msgid represents the upstream name and the msgstr represents the translation in the relevant language (French in this case). After the change, translators will be prompted to translate "Ho_Chi_Minh", not "Ho Chi Minh City" or "Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi" So we could make the English translation "Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi", but the translation teams would have no indication that they were expected to do likewise. Note that the Vietnamese translator could have translated "Saigon" as "Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh", but went for a more literal "Sài Gòn" instead. > As for 2), would it be feasible/reasonable ? And should we continue in > this bug report or close this one as soon as tzdata maintainers have > made the change and open a new one about proposing multiple city names > for each time zone? I think it would be appropriate to close this one once Asia/Saigon is renamed to Asia/Ho_Chi_Minh, and for you to open up a new one to discuss your multiple city idea and handling the translation issue I described above. Perhaps there is a better way to do timezone selection.
Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
Clint Adams a écrit : > After the change, translators will be prompted to translate > "Ho_Chi_Minh", not "Ho Chi Minh City" or "Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi" > > So we could make the English translation "Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi", > but the translation teams would have no indication that they were > expected to do likewise. Ok, I understand. We would need a comment in the POT to do so. But in fact I was not thinking about using translation, since translation mechanism should be used to "translate" and not "interpret", IMHO. > Note that the Vietnamese translator could have translated "Saigon" as > "Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh", but went for a more literal "Sài Gòn" instead. > And that stands correct, IMHO! It would have been incorrect, still IMHO, to do this kind of political change (interpretation) at the translation level. > I think it would be appropriate to close this one once Asia/Saigon is > renamed to Asia/Ho_Chi_Minh, and for you to open up a new one to discuss > your multiple city idea and handling the translation issue I described > above. > Ok, let's do this way! > Perhaps there is a better way to do timezone selection. > That's also what I'm wondering... Seeing others systems, they propose timezone selection not by geographical means (which is not always that easy for everybody) but by timezone (eg: GMT+0700) or even by selecting current time, since user will most probably now what time it is at that moment... But there is a chance they select the right time displayed still for the wrong timezone, because of incorrect hardware clock setting, or may be because of different timezone sharing the same time at some moment but different rules along the year (eg: DST)... Well... We should discuss that in a new bug anyway... ;-) And not on tzdata but probably debian-installer (or... ?). -- Jean Christophe "プログフ" ANDRÉ — Responsable technique régional Bureau Asie-Pacifique (BAP) — http://asie-pacifique.auf.org/ Agence universitaire de la Francophonie (AuF) — http://www.auf.org/ Adresse postale : AUF, 21 Lê Thánh Tông, T.T. Hoàn Kiếm, Hà Nội, Việt Nam Tél. : +84 4 9331108 Fax : +84 4 8247383 Mobile : +84 91 3248747 ⎧ Note personnelle : merci d'éviter de m'envoyer des fichiers PowerPoint ⎫ ⎩ ou Word, voir http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.fr.html ⎭ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Bug#471305: "Asia/Saigon" (Vietnam) should be changed to "Asia/Hanoi"
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 09:04:55AM +0700, Jean Christophe André wrote: > But in fact I was not thinking about using translation, since translation > mechanism should be used to "translate" and not "interpret", IMHO. Whether or not it should be, it currently is. For example, some languages are translating "Atlantic" as "Atlantic Ocean", and some are not. This works well when what is meant is "Atlantic Ocean", but looks silly when it is not. However, the current po-debconf setup makes it impossible to have two meanings for "Atlantic". -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
