Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Craig Sanders]

On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 09:06:33AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:
> And why doesnt the bootblock get copied when using identical discs and making
> a dd if=/dev/had of=/dev/hdb?

it does.

craig

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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Craig Sanders]

On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 09:06:33AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:
> And why doesnt the bootblock get copied when using identical discs and making
> a dd if=/dev/had of=/dev/hdb?

it does.

craig

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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Jose Alberto Guzman wrote:
Craig Sanders wrote:
and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.
>>
/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.  
craig

 In the bsdish slang, raw devices are character devices, so /dev/hd? are 
not exactly raw devices, but block devices.
Not only in "bsdish" slang. Most other Unix boxes i know (HPUX, AIX, SOLARIS)
define the char device "/dev/r" as the raw device. Linux is the 
only Unix OS i know which only has a block device available and i really 
wonder why.

There's support for accessing harddisks as character devices, see:
http://www.linuxdocs.org/HOWTOs/SCSI-2.4-HOWTO/rawdev.html
Great, ill look into that!
best regards,
  :: Arnd ::

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Hi,
first: thanx to everyone who answered!
Craig Sanders wrote:
>> Arnd Vehling wrote
Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 

don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.
ok, i will look into that.
and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.
/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   
And why doesnt the bootblock get copied when using identical discs and
making a dd if=/dev/had of=/dev/hdb?
On other machines, like HP, Sun, freebsd etc. you have /dev/rdsk 
which is the raw device and a /dev/dsk which is the block device.
AFAIK you dont have this on linux, do you?

  :: Arnd ::

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Jason Lim]

> > If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second
(/dev/hdb)
> > will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to
be

> that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the
primary
> IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is
a
> master drive or not.
>
> /dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
> /dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
> /dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
> /dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller
>
> > Is this possible?
>
> it's standard.
>

I think that is his point... but it doesn't do that for him. Apparently...
he has a master drive (hda) and slave drive (hdb) on the primary IDE
controller... but if he then removed the master drive, then suddenly the
slave drive becomes hda! Correct me if i'm wrong... :-)

Personally i've never seen that happen. The ONLY thing i could think of...
is to specifically set the jumpers on the HDs to FORCE one hard disk to be
master, and the other to be slave. That way, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the
system to get it wrong. Do not rely on the "cable select" jumper.

> don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to
do, only
> about 5 minutes work.

If only it was really so easy...

personally, i use 3ware cards... but just recently one of the 3ware cards
barfed, and turned a RAID 1 (with 2 HDs and 1 spare) somehow into a RAID 1
with 2 drives (the 1 HD and the spare) AND another RAID 1 with 1 drive
(which used to be part of the original RAID 1). Ever seen something like
this before?

I was looking at MONDO for a solution to this... but it does not appear
that MONDO will be able to resolve this very well at all and adds a whole
level of complexity to the setup. I was thinking... perhaps a solution
would be to setup a RAID 1 between the 3ware RAID 1 and a large IDE HD.
Would that be a good workaround in case of catastrophic failure on the
3ware RAID?


> also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate
IDE
> controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller
fails.
> e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE
master)
> rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

That is always a good suggestion. Even if the cable had a problem both
drives won't be affected... the only cost to do this is that of an extra
IDE cable, so no reason not to!

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Jose Alberto Guzman wrote:
Craig Sanders wrote:
and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.
>>
/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.  
craig

 In the bsdish slang, raw devices are character devices, so /dev/hd? are 
not exactly raw devices, but block devices.
Not only in "bsdish" slang. Most other Unix boxes i know (HPUX, AIX, SOLARIS)
define the char device "/dev/r" as the raw device. Linux is the 
only Unix OS i know which only has a block device available and i really 
wonder why.

There's support for accessing harddisks as character devices, see:
http://www.linuxdocs.org/HOWTOs/SCSI-2.4-HOWTO/rawdev.html
Great, ill look into that!

best regards,

  :: Arnd ::



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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Hi,

first: thanx to everyone who answered!

Craig Sanders wrote:
>> Arnd Vehling wrote
Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 


don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.
ok, i will look into that.

and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.
/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   
And why doesnt the bootblock get copied when using identical discs and
making a dd if=/dev/had of=/dev/hdb?
On other machines, like HP, Sun, freebsd etc. you have /dev/rdsk 
which is the raw device and a /dev/dsk which is the block device.
AFAIK you dont have this on linux, do you?

  :: Arnd ::



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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Jason Lim]

> > If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second
(/dev/hdb)
> > will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to
be

> that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the
primary
> IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is
a
> master drive or not.
>
> /dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
> /dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
> /dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
> /dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller
>
> > Is this possible?
>
> it's standard.
>

I think that is his point... but it doesn't do that for him. Apparently...
he has a master drive (hda) and slave drive (hdb) on the primary IDE
controller... but if he then removed the master drive, then suddenly the
slave drive becomes hda! Correct me if i'm wrong... :-)

Personally i've never seen that happen. The ONLY thing i could think of...
is to specifically set the jumpers on the HDs to FORCE one hard disk to be
master, and the other to be slave. That way, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the
system to get it wrong. Do not rely on the "cable select" jumper.

> don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to
do, only
> about 5 minutes work.

If only it was really so easy...

personally, i use 3ware cards... but just recently one of the 3ware cards
barfed, and turned a RAID 1 (with 2 HDs and 1 spare) somehow into a RAID 1
with 2 drives (the 1 HD and the spare) AND another RAID 1 with 1 drive
(which used to be part of the original RAID 1). Ever seen something like
this before?

I was looking at MONDO for a solution to this... but it does not appear
that MONDO will be able to resolve this very well at all and adds a whole
level of complexity to the setup. I was thinking... perhaps a solution
would be to setup a RAID 1 between the 3ware RAID 1 and a large IDE HD.
Would that be a good workaround in case of catastrophic failure on the
3ware RAID?


> also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate
IDE
> controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller
fails.
> e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE
master)
> rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

That is always a good suggestion. Even if the cable had a problem both
drives won't be affected... the only cost to do this is that of an extra
IDE cable, so no reason not to!


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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Jose Alberto Guzman]

Craig Sanders wrote:
On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:54:19AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:
does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.

huh?
that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the primary
IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is a
master drive or not.
/dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
/dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller

Is this possible?

it's standard.

Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 

don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.
also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate IDE
controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller fails.
e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE master)
rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.

/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   

craig
 In the bsdish slang, raw devices are character devices, so /dev/hd? 
are not exactly raw devices, but block devices.

 There's support for accessing harddisks as character devices, see:
http://www.linuxdocs.org/HOWTOs/SCSI-2.4-HOWTO/rawdev.html

 José

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Craig Sanders]

On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:54:19AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:
> does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
> system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
> be named like this.
> 
> /dev/hda
> /dev/hdb
> 
> If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
> will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
> a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
> case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
> /dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.

huh?

that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the primary
IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is a
master drive or not.

/dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
/dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller

> Is this possible?

it's standard.

> Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
> block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 

don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.

also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate IDE
controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller fails.
e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE master)
rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

> and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.

/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   

craig

-- 
craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The next time you vote, remember that "Regime change begins at home"

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Jose Alberto Guzman]

Craig Sanders wrote:
On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:54:19AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:

does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.


huh?

that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the primary
IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is a
master drive or not.
/dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
/dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller

Is this possible?


it's standard.


Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 


don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.
also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate IDE
controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller fails.
e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE master)
rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.


/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   

craig

 In the bsdish slang, raw devices are character devices, so /dev/hd? 
are not exactly raw devices, but block devices.

 There's support for accessing harddisks as character devices, see:
http://www.linuxdocs.org/HOWTOs/SCSI-2.4-HOWTO/rawdev.html


 José

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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Craig Sanders]

On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:54:19AM +0200, Arnd Vehling wrote:
> does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
> system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
> be named like this.
> 
> /dev/hda
> /dev/hdb
> 
> If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
> will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
> a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
> case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
> /dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.

huh?

that's EXACTLY what linux does for IDE drives.  the slave drive on the primary
IDE controller will *always* be /dev/hdb, regardless of whether there is a
master drive or not.

/dev/hda  - master drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdb  - slave drive on primary IDE controller
/dev/hdc  - master drive on secondary IDE controller
/dev/hdd  - slave drive on secondary IDE controller

> Is this possible?

it's standard.

> Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
> block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it 

don't use dd for that.  set up a raid-1 mirror instead.  it's easy to do, only
about 5 minutes work.

also, for performance and safety, put your second drive on a separate IDE
controller.  that way it will still work even if one IDE controller fails.
e.g. have /dev/hda (primary IDE master) and /dev/hdc (secondary IDE master)
rather than /dev/hda & /dev/hdb.

> and there are no raw devices on linux AFAIK.

/dev/hd? ARE the raw devices.   

craig

-- 
craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The next time you vote, remember that "Regime change begins at home"


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RE: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Steve Drees]

Arnd Vehling  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
> system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
> be named like this.
>
> /dev/hda
> /dev/hdb
>
> If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second
> (/dev/hdb) will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want
> /dev/hdb to be a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk
> _without_ opening the case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i
> want linux to keep the name /dev/hdb for the drive no matter what
> happens.


put one drive on IDE0, the other drive on IDE1. Then to 'remove' hda simply
disable IDE0 in the bios.

RE: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Steve Drees]

Arnd Vehling  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
> system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
> be named like this.
>
> /dev/hda
> /dev/hdb
>
> If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second
> (/dev/hdb) will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want
> /dev/hdb to be a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk
> _without_ opening the case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i
> want linux to keep the name /dev/hdb for the drive no matter what
> happens.


put one drive on IDE0, the other drive on IDE1. Then to 'remove' hda simply
disable IDE0 in the bios.


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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Dave Watkins]

Arnd Vehling wrote:
Hello,
does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?
Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,
  Arnd
I would suggest making hdb in this case Secondary master. That will mean 
it is always hdc no matter what happens. Some bios' don't like trying to 
boot from slave HDD's. Otherwise look at setting up a RAID mirror as has 
been suggested already

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Dave Watkins]

Arnd Vehling wrote:

Hello,

does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?

Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,

  Arnd

I would suggest making hdb in this case Secondary master. That will mean 
it is always hdc no matter what happens. Some bios' don't like trying to 
boot from slave HDD's. Otherwise look at setting up a RAID mirror as has 
been suggested already

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Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Michael Loftis]

the ordering of IDE drives is dependant upon master/slave.  IE /dev/hda is 
ALWAYS the master on the first IDE controller, /dev/hdb is ALWAYS the slave 
on the first IDE controller.  If your drives are shifting around that's 
something else doing it.

With IDE you're kinda screwed.  With SCSI devfs uses more descriptive names.
you could try using MD in a mirrored RAID pair.  then root would be 
/dev/md0 and it would handle the mirroringboot blocks are harder but 
the dd method does work (but it's dog slow)

You have to reboot (or do some IOCTL magic) to get partition changes to 
show up in Linux,and don't even think about using dd between a pair of 
drives that aren't totally inactive, you'll end up with total garbage.

--On Wednesday, March 31, 2004 07:54 +0200 Arnd Vehling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

Hello,
does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?
Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesn't do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,
   Arnd

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
Michael Loftis
Modwest Sr. Systems Administrator
Powerful, Affordable Web Hosting

Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Hello,
does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?
Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,
  Arnd

Re: Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Michael Loftis]

the ordering of IDE drives is dependant upon master/slave.  IE /dev/hda is 
ALWAYS the master on the first IDE controller, /dev/hdb is ALWAYS the slave 
on the first IDE controller.  If your drives are shifting around that's 
something else doing it.

With IDE you're kinda screwed.  With SCSI devfs uses more descriptive names.

you could try using MD in a mirrored RAID pair.  then root would be 
/dev/md0 and it would handle the mirroringboot blocks are harder but 
the dd method does work (but it's dog slow)

You have to reboot (or do some IOCTL magic) to get partition changes to 
show up in Linux,and don't even think about using dd between a pair of 
drives that aren't totally inactive, you'll end up with total garbage.

--On Wednesday, March 31, 2004 07:54 +0200 Arnd Vehling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

Hello,

does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?

Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesn't do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,

   Arnd



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--
Michael Loftis
Modwest Sr. Systems Administrator
Powerful, Affordable Web Hosting
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Fixed (hardisk) device names?

[Arnd Vehling]

Hello,

does anyone know how to fix the device name on a debian linux
system? For example. If i have two IDE hardisks, the devices will
be named like this.
/dev/hda
/dev/hdb
If i now must remove the first harddisk (/dev/hda) the second (/dev/hdb)
will be renamed to (/dev/hda) after the reboot. As i want /dev/hdb to be
a mirror of /dev/hda and used as failover disk _without_ opening the
case and tampering with the IDE bus setup, i want linux to keep the name
/dev/hdb for the drive no matter what happens.
Is this possible?

Another question. How can i copy two identical discs _including_ the boot
block? "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" doesnt do it and there are no raw
devices on linux AFAIK.
thx,

  Arnd



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