Re: Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Dag . Stensby]

Hi Michelle,

Have you sloved your backbone problems
?

The suggestion by Richard for using
a radio bridge or hop is well proven and very cheap compared to LL's. Moreover
using PTP in conjunction with PTMP solutions, for last mile access can
in this way avoid the largest costs and easily scale the system according
to your needs.

Regards,
Dag 

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:45:59 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Am 2004-04-11 06:24:56, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> >
> >..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.
> 
> How does this work exactly ?
> Tell me more about it, may be PM.

..deal.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:13:45 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> Drop me some lines PM about pricing...
 
..willco.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:45:59 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Am 2004-04-11 06:24:56, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> >
> >..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.
> 
> How does this work exactly ?
> Tell me more about it, may be PM.

..deal.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:13:45 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> Drop me some lines PM about pricing...
 
..willco.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-11 05:03:38, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:10:44 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> The 54 MBit are only Theory !
>> Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.
>
>..riiight, dream on. Say 20Mbps and I'll agree.  ;-)

Do you dream from Netgear or D-Link ?

I have a Proxim Tsunami MP.11a installed in Strasbourg. THE COR is 
installed in Neudorf and the ROR in the Center of Strasbourg on a 
Tower. The Link has 40 MBit effectiv. And curently ther are between 
6 and 18 Users whic use it without traffic shaping. 

Then I have probs with WarDrivers which use my 2 MBit ADSL too ;-)

My Traffic counter (ipac-ng) is working very good !

I it works realy good. 

But I think, you do not know abour the differenc between a D-Link/
Netgear and an ORINOCO/Tsunami system. 

The HighEnd system are 20-40 times more expensive but there is 
realy more power. 

>..my experience with isp's, is, set up proxy servers and spam weed

Yes, I think, a big proxY is neccesarily...

>..booo, I said "steam" like in vapor, not "steamy" like in raunchy.  ;-)

...

>..so, we return to sizes, weights, and power etc requirements.  ;-)
>
>> 1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
>> project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
>> E3 and OC-3
>> 
>> 2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
>> need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
>> GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 
> 
>..you meant http://www.wirelessguys.com/  ;-)
>They carry the above gear?

Yes I was in there Website... ;-)

Realy nice the 360° Beamer (entry page) with 8 channels ;-)
Was 25.000 US$ I think

>> The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
>> support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...
>
>..huh?  They do support line of sight?  6ft ~ 20km, that's _up_. 
>Assuming you are correct about their 20 km signal path loss range,
>keep in mind that their 20 km is _along_ the surface, say across the 
>sea, where the air is nice and thick.  Signal loss from your ground
>station up to my relay drone, will be proportional to the air density
>_along_ the signal path.

No, I was thinking, that I uase the RadioBridges between my POP's in 
Maroc, because for the monthly Price of a 34 MBit LeasdLine I can buy 
1 1/2 RadioBridges OC-3 (twelf month are around 360 km)

Cabling the POP's are more expensive as the RadioBridges. 

>..now, pointing you ground station antennas up say at 11 degrees
>elevation to point at my relay at say 20km altitude to match your sea
>level signal loss, and then down on the other side at a similar angle, 
>takes you how far?  ;-)

This is a SatelitLink ?

I know one here in Strasbourg which use Tiscali SkyDSL 1024/256kBit. 
And is realy fast... and I think, the reaction time is good. 

Like to know more about your system.

>> I was thinking about minimum two independant and 100% redunant ISP's. 
>
>..cool, 2 or more drones in the air, and several ground stations etc.

Yes, why not...

But whats the price of GrondStations ?
And whats the speed of each channel ?

>..or, are you setting up _several_ isp's, or are you setting up several 
>_route_ isp's to serve the _one_ isp you have made the 26 boxes for?

hmmm...

>> >..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight
>>
>> You mean via Satelit ?
>
>..close, like in "big model airplane carrying pc's" or AP's set up 
>as bridges. The airframe would be a slow high flying wing with 
>an autopilot, to make a flying robot relay drone.  ;-)

??? - Never herd about it !  :-/

>..for anything past 99.9% 24/7 service, I say 3 drones minimum, one
>airborne in service, one ready for takeoff, and "one in the work shop".
>For every additional link serviced, add one airborne relay in service,
>and depending on distances to, and between relay loiter points, 
>service policy etc, consider launching flying spares.

Now I understood how it works... 

>..also, consider traditional wifi grids, high altitude relay drones can
>join these, and span them, and span several of these grids, and 
>can form back bone grids. A single point failure becomes less

This is what I not understand...
The drones are working with the 802.11g standard ?

>problematic, as traffic can be re-routed until a new drone is up
>and takes over the loiter point.

Yes right, and it mean, that each AP must have two antennas, one to 
receive the signal from the drones and a second which distribute it 
to the customers ?

>> I can use the Proxim Tsunami MP.11a which sopports with the 
>> Outdoor Router Software upgrade Traffic Shaping from 64 kBit 
>> to some MBit (do not know exactly)
>
>..yup, failing that, I have http://fmb.no/ipcop/setup-cbq-0.0.5.tar.bz2
>which could use a web interface, and a wee linux box to run on to 
>trottle the bridged links, I would prefer to have the airframe controls
>separate

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-11 06:24:56, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 02:02:35 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> OK, between 8 and 12. 
>> 
>> He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.
>
>..thats like 70 to 110 mill euros.

Right, devided by 11.

>> Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
>> since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 
>
>..trivial.  As is bandwidth throttling.  
>
>> "Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.
>
>..this is a "billable traffic metering" server product, no?  
>I think I've seen such stuff, under the GPL too.  
>Viable with hotels, airports or cybercafe's, but 
>defeats the fat pipe idea elsewhere, IMHO.

My Lucent ORINOCO and my Proxim Tsunami can shape the traffic.

ORINOCO:  64/128/256/512 kBit
Tsunami:  64/128/256/512 kBit 1/2/5,5 MBit

BUT (!!!) not in the standard version. If you mean, you can buy the 
Tsunami fot 1700 Euro, FALSE !!! This is only the residencial Gateway !

For Trafficschaping and User-Accounting you need the "Outdoor Router 
Software". And the costs of your Tsunami will explode to 5000 Euro. 
Than you need the Relays, because the "Central Outdoor Router" is on 
the roof of your office. and for each Relay you need two WaveLAN cards 
and two antennas... Price for a full "Remote Outdoor Router" to support 
roaming is around 6800 Euro. 

So with a System of on channel 54 MBit (effectiv 40 MBit) you need one 
COR and 3-4 ROR. Supportet surface around 50/400 km2 (Strasbourg/Marrakech)

Price 25-32.000 Euro
It must be rentable in less then two years => 1333 Euro/month

How many customers ? 

  64k   640 -> 25 Load  ->  2560 Customers  = 0,52 Euro/Cust.
 128k   320 1280 Customers  = 1,04 Euro/Cust.
 256k   160  640 Customers  = 2,08 Euro/Cust.
 512k80  320 Customers  = 4,17 Euro/Cust.
 
Is it Rentable ?

The "Maroc Telecom" like to bill me 450.000 DH/34MBit and I need two.
which mean 82.000 Euro/month

260 Customers   =32 Euro/month ( 64 kBit)
1280 Customers  =64 Euro/month (128 kBit)
 640 Customers  =   128 Euro/month (256 kBit)
 320 Customers  =   256 Euro/month (512 kBit)

The current price for ADSL in Maroc is:



128 kBit 750 MByte/day   359 DH =  32,64 Euro/month
256 kBit1500 MByte/day   859 DH =  78,10 Euro/month
512 kBit2500 Mbyte/day  1609 DH = 146,27 Euro/month

and for the Installtion 700 DH (63,63 Euro)

>..chk my link in my other reponse to you. ;-)

;-)

>..

The are test in the PC-Direct too. 

Do you know, why they do not test the ORINOCO GoldCards 
or the ones from CISCO ?  ;-)

c't and PC-Direct are sponsered...

NOT from Lucent or CISCO !!!

>...and when you buy several thousand cards, you get what 
>specs you want, for a fair bit less.

I think, if I ask Proxim for 10.000 54MBit Cards I do not 
pay 109 Euro per card ;-)

>> Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
>> distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.
>
>..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.

How does this work exactly ?
Tell me more about it, may be PM.

>..how about taking Tangier or Tetouan first?  Allows connecting to
>Spain, Algeria or Gibraltar, and should cut link pricing "next time".

Yes I know. The "Maroc Telecom" has its POP to Spain and SeaBone in 
Tetouan and I have contacted several Providers in the Region ;-)

>From Spain it will be around 80 km Seacable ;-)

>..also, consider adding the cities along the link spans, to the link
>market, adding these to flying relays, is trivial and should be
>profitable.

That is what my contacts in Maroc told me too, beginning in Tetouan 
and three Links (1=Atlantic coast, 2=Fes, 3=Algerian frontier)

I have a contact to an ISP in Kabily and he told me yesterday, that 
an BGP-4 Connection to Algeria is no problem...

>> Now I like to check up the possibilities. 
>
>..  ;-)

It is realy heavy !

>..after those 8 weeks, then what?

I think, this is not a project which can be done in 8 weeks. ;-)

>> >IMHO you will need Moroc Telecom in one way or the other. At all for 
>> >your connecivity. It's pretty similar in all countries.
>
>..uhmmm, with my relay drones, there is also wiring in Algeria,
>the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla, mainland Spain and Gibraltar.
>This eventually builds an incentive on the local telecom. ;-)
>
>..and, is Maroc Telecom, or are the Maroccans really really really 
>not interested in building a couple of new industries?  ;-)

Curently the "Maroc Telecom" is the only Provider for ISP's, because 
the "Maroc Telecom" hold all the cables and technic. 

There is a study (in french) of the ANRT about the quality Internet.
Too expensive, bad quality, linedrops, bad Uplinks...

There is no other solution for ISP's in Maroc as using the "IAM"

Greetings and happy Estern
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-Use

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-11 05:03:38, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:10:44 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> The 54 MBit are only Theory !
>> Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.
>
>..riiight, dream on. Say 20Mbps and I'll agree.  ;-)

Do you dream from Netgear or D-Link ?

I have a Proxim Tsunami MP.11a installed in Strasbourg. THE COR is 
installed in Neudorf and the ROR in the Center of Strasbourg on a 
Tower. The Link has 40 MBit effectiv. And curently ther are between 
6 and 18 Users whic use it without traffic shaping. 

Then I have probs with WarDrivers which use my 2 MBit ADSL too ;-)

My Traffic counter (ipac-ng) is working very good !

I it works realy good. 

But I think, you do not know abour the differenc between a D-Link/
Netgear and an ORINOCO/Tsunami system. 

The HighEnd system are 20-40 times more expensive but there is 
realy more power. 

>..my experience with isp's, is, set up proxy servers and spam weed

Yes, I think, a big proxY is neccesarily...

>..booo, I said "steam" like in vapor, not "steamy" like in raunchy.  ;-)

...

>..so, we return to sizes, weights, and power etc requirements.  ;-)
>
>> 1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
>> project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
>> E3 and OC-3
>> 
>> 2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
>> need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
>> GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 
> 
>..you meant http://www.wirelessguys.com/  ;-)
>They carry the above gear?

Yes I was in there Website... ;-)

Realy nice the 360° Beamer (entry page) with 8 channels ;-)
Was 25.000 US$ I think

>> The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
>> support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...
>
>..huh?  They do support line of sight?  6ft ~ 20km, that's _up_. 
>Assuming you are correct about their 20 km signal path loss range,
>keep in mind that their 20 km is _along_ the surface, say across the 
>sea, where the air is nice and thick.  Signal loss from your ground
>station up to my relay drone, will be proportional to the air density
>_along_ the signal path.

No, I was thinking, that I uase the RadioBridges between my POP's in 
Maroc, because for the monthly Price of a 34 MBit LeasdLine I can buy 
1 1/2 RadioBridges OC-3 (twelf month are around 360 km)

Cabling the POP's are more expensive as the RadioBridges. 

>..now, pointing you ground station antennas up say at 11 degrees
>elevation to point at my relay at say 20km altitude to match your sea
>level signal loss, and then down on the other side at a similar angle, 
>takes you how far?  ;-)

This is a SatelitLink ?

I know one here in Strasbourg which use Tiscali SkyDSL 1024/256kBit. 
And is realy fast... and I think, the reaction time is good. 

Like to know more about your system.

>> I was thinking about minimum two independant and 100% redunant ISP's. 
>
>..cool, 2 or more drones in the air, and several ground stations etc.

Yes, why not...

But whats the price of GrondStations ?
And whats the speed of each channel ?

>..or, are you setting up _several_ isp's, or are you setting up several 
>_route_ isp's to serve the _one_ isp you have made the 26 boxes for?

hmmm...

>> >..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight
>>
>> You mean via Satelit ?
>
>..close, like in "big model airplane carrying pc's" or AP's set up 
>as bridges. The airframe would be a slow high flying wing with 
>an autopilot, to make a flying robot relay drone.  ;-)

??? - Never herd about it !  :-/

>..for anything past 99.9% 24/7 service, I say 3 drones minimum, one
>airborne in service, one ready for takeoff, and "one in the work shop".
>For every additional link serviced, add one airborne relay in service,
>and depending on distances to, and between relay loiter points, 
>service policy etc, consider launching flying spares.

Now I understood how it works... 

>..also, consider traditional wifi grids, high altitude relay drones can
>join these, and span them, and span several of these grids, and 
>can form back bone grids. A single point failure becomes less

This is what I not understand...
The drones are working with the 802.11g standard ?

>problematic, as traffic can be re-routed until a new drone is up
>and takes over the loiter point.

Yes right, and it mean, that each AP must have two antennas, one to 
receive the signal from the drones and a second which distribute it 
to the customers ?

>> I can use the Proxim Tsunami MP.11a which sopports with the 
>> Outdoor Router Software upgrade Traffic Shaping from 64 kBit 
>> to some MBit (do not know exactly)
>
>..yup, failing that, I have http://fmb.no/ipcop/setup-cbq-0.0.5.tar.bz2
>which could use a web interface, and a wee linux box to run on to 
>trottle the bridged links, I would prefer to have the airframe controls
>separate

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-11 06:24:56, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 02:02:35 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> OK, between 8 and 12. 
>> 
>> He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.
>
>..thats like 70 to 110 mill euros.

Right, devided by 11.

>> Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
>> since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 
>
>..trivial.  As is bandwidth throttling.  
>
>> "Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.
>
>..this is a "billable traffic metering" server product, no?  
>I think I've seen such stuff, under the GPL too.  
>Viable with hotels, airports or cybercafe's, but 
>defeats the fat pipe idea elsewhere, IMHO.

My Lucent ORINOCO and my Proxim Tsunami can shape the traffic.

ORINOCO:  64/128/256/512 kBit
Tsunami:  64/128/256/512 kBit 1/2/5,5 MBit

BUT (!!!) not in the standard version. If you mean, you can buy the 
Tsunami fot 1700 Euro, FALSE !!! This is only the residencial Gateway !

For Trafficschaping and User-Accounting you need the "Outdoor Router 
Software". And the costs of your Tsunami will explode to 5000 Euro. 
Than you need the Relays, because the "Central Outdoor Router" is on 
the roof of your office. and for each Relay you need two WaveLAN cards 
and two antennas... Price for a full "Remote Outdoor Router" to support 
roaming is around 6800 Euro. 

So with a System of on channel 54 MBit (effectiv 40 MBit) you need one 
COR and 3-4 ROR. Supportet surface around 50/400 km2 (Strasbourg/Marrakech)

Price 25-32.000 Euro
It must be rentable in less then two years => 1333 Euro/month

How many customers ? 

  64k   640 -> 25 Load  ->  2560 Customers  = 0,52 Euro/Cust.
 128k   320 1280 Customers  = 1,04 Euro/Cust.
 256k   160  640 Customers  = 2,08 Euro/Cust.
 512k80  320 Customers  = 4,17 Euro/Cust.
 
Is it Rentable ?

The "Maroc Telecom" like to bill me 450.000 DH/34MBit and I need two.
which mean 82.000 Euro/month

260 Customers   =32 Euro/month ( 64 kBit)
1280 Customers  =64 Euro/month (128 kBit)
 640 Customers  =   128 Euro/month (256 kBit)
 320 Customers  =   256 Euro/month (512 kBit)

The current price for ADSL in Maroc is:



128 kBit 750 MByte/day   359 DH =  32,64 Euro/month
256 kBit1500 MByte/day   859 DH =  78,10 Euro/month
512 kBit2500 Mbyte/day  1609 DH = 146,27 Euro/month

and for the Installtion 700 DH (63,63 Euro)

>..chk my link in my other reponse to you. ;-)

;-)

>..

The are test in the PC-Direct too. 

Do you know, why they do not test the ORINOCO GoldCards 
or the ones from CISCO ?  ;-)

c't and PC-Direct are sponsered...

NOT from Lucent or CISCO !!!

>...and when you buy several thousand cards, you get what 
>specs you want, for a fair bit less.

I think, if I ask Proxim for 10.000 54MBit Cards I do not 
pay 109 Euro per card ;-)

>> Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
>> distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.
>
>..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.

How does this work exactly ?
Tell me more about it, may be PM.

>..how about taking Tangier or Tetouan first?  Allows connecting to
>Spain, Algeria or Gibraltar, and should cut link pricing "next time".

Yes I know. The "Maroc Telecom" has its POP to Spain and SeaBone in 
Tetouan and I have contacted several Providers in the Region ;-)

>From Spain it will be around 80 km Seacable ;-)

>..also, consider adding the cities along the link spans, to the link
>market, adding these to flying relays, is trivial and should be
>profitable.

That is what my contacts in Maroc told me too, beginning in Tetouan 
and three Links (1=Atlantic coast, 2=Fes, 3=Algerian frontier)

I have a contact to an ISP in Kabily and he told me yesterday, that 
an BGP-4 Connection to Algeria is no problem...

>> Now I like to check up the possibilities. 
>
>..  ;-)

It is realy heavy !

>..after those 8 weeks, then what?

I think, this is not a project which can be done in 8 weeks. ;-)

>> >IMHO you will need Moroc Telecom in one way or the other. At all for 
>> >your connecivity. It's pretty similar in all countries.
>
>..uhmmm, with my relay drones, there is also wiring in Algeria,
>the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilla, mainland Spain and Gibraltar.
>This eventually builds an incentive on the local telecom. ;-)
>
>..and, is Maroc Telecom, or are the Maroccans really really really 
>not interested in building a couple of new industries?  ;-)

Curently the "Maroc Telecom" is the only Provider for ISP's, because 
the "Maroc Telecom" hold all the cables and technic. 

There is a study (in french) of the ANRT about the quality Internet.
Too expensive, bad quality, linedrops, bad Uplinks...

There is no other solution for ISP's in Maroc as using the "IAM"

Greetings and happy Estern
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-Use

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 02:02:35 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Am 2004-04-09 23:20:47, schrieb Andreas John:
> >Hello!
> >
> >Before all this begins to get silly:
> >You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
> >pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that
> >you 
> 
> I had a talk with the "Ministry of Communicatin" in Rabat and he ask 
> me about the costs. 
> 
> I have answerd "some hundred million Dirham". 
> 
> A littlebit silence and than he ask me "How many hundred million ?"
> 
> OK, between 8 and 12. 
> 
> He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.

..thats like 70 to 110 mill euros.

> >haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
> >probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
> >financial and technical concerns.
> 
> Right, and as I have written, I do only the study for this project. 
> Then I will present this Project som people from the Maroc Gov. and 
> some Finanicial/Technical Specialists to get a summary...
> 
> >Some technical questions:
> >
> >_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security? 
> >To "shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)
> 
> Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
> since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 

..trivial.  As is bandwidth throttling.  

> "Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.

..this is a "billable traffic metering" server product, no?  
I think I've seen such stuff, under the GPL too.  
Viable with hotels, airports or cybercafe's, but 
defeats the fat pipe idea elsewhere, IMHO.

> >_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
> >36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below
> >500ms)
> 
> Yes I know. Not funny for gamers...
> 
> >_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.)
> >take? It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...
> 
> I offer only 64, 128 and 256 kBit. because my Experience with the 
> "Lucent ORINOCO" maybe 2500 Clients with 64 kBit on one 54 MBit
> Channel. 

..chk my link in my other reponse to you. ;-)

> >_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than
> >"99,x% ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that
> >you give you some pence if they violate their SLA.
> 
> YES.
> 
> >_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit
> >in realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)
> 
> But they have only Benchmarked the SOHO-Systems not HighEnd. 

..

...and when you buy several thousand cards, you get what 
specs you want, for a fair bit less.

> >_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close
> >distance

.
 
> >_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better
> >than 802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to
> >"noise" concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in
> >foggy environments.
> 
> 8.000 km of FiberOptic cable ? 
> I do not like to dream about the price...
> 
> But RadioBridges with 34 MBit do maximum 30 km and with 155 MBit 
> around 20 km. So I need many of them. 

...or, to lift them up high.  ;-)
 
> One of the Enterprises that I have contacted was 
>  and the Suggestion:
> 
> 34 MBit Systems:  Sagem, Witcom, Ericsson
> 
> 155 MBit Systems: Ceragon, Ericsson
> 
> Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
> distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.

..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.

> >What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much
> > stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things
> > and 
> >all have much to do with olny one area 
> 
> ;-)
> 
> My OWN Project was the Creation of a CyberCenter which contains:
> 
> 1)  InternetCafe  Based on Debian GNU/Linux
> 2)  Education Center for women  Informatic/Linux/Office
> 3)  WaveLAN-ISP   Only Localy.
> 
> For this it is enough, if I have two E3 (34MBit), a "3Com NETBuilder 
> II" (8-Slot), one Proxim Tsunami MP.11a and the possibility of 
> Serverhosting. 
> 
> Because Internet is realy expensive in Maroc and my Enterprise is 
> "non-lucrativ" I like to drop down the price under the ADSL. 
> 
> But NOW:450.000 DH (41.000 Euro) for ONE E3. Two times more 
>   expensive as in France and fife time more expensive 
>   as in Germany...
> 
> OK, my plan is to create three CyberCenters...
> 
> Fes, Casablanca and Marrakech.

..how about taking Tangier or Tetouan first?  Allows connecting to
Spain, Algeria or Gibraltar, and should cut link pricing "next time".

..also, consider adding the cities along the link spans, to the link
market, adding these to flying relays, is trivial and should be
profitable.

> Each 2 x E3 and 68 MBit ??? 
> 
> Or better two times an OC-3 with 311 MBit ???
> 
> I have ask some friends in different

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:10:44 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hello Arnt, 
> 
> Am 2004-04-09 18:23:03, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> >On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> >> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
> >> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)
> >
> >..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones
> >over the Mediterranean.  
> 
> In germany I have payed for a Redunant E3 at UUnet around 
> 10.000 Euro/month and then the traffic :-/ around 25.000 Euro/month. 
> 
> Oh yes, In Germany You get the Acces realy cheap, 
> but you pay for the traffic !

..dude.  ;-)

> >> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit
> >or > effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
> >
> >..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 
> 
> Yes, but you can only use 4 Channels paralel of the 19.

..???  I can put one AP in each wing tip, one in the nose, and 
one in the tail, and one in the middle? That's 20 links per drone, 
bridge those, and you have 10 bridged links. Also possible to 
fence them away from each other and wire them together etc,
if you really wanna play games here. 

> >side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
> >30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.
> 
> The 54 MBit are only Theory !
> Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.

..riiight, dream on. Say 20Mbps and I'll agree.  ;-)

> So if I install for example 4 Channels in Casablance I 
> have around 40% of all resources there !
> 
> But, if I calculate with 5-6 E3-Links and 42.000 Euro per Link, 
> I will necer earn money with it !

..my experience with isp's, is, set up proxy servers and spam weed
servers, and phase in new customers so your old ones have time to 
stuff their disks full and quit DL'ing stuff at 100% pipe speeds.  ;-)
Here, my isp sells 400/200kbps and sees right now a 300kbps total 
for about 2200 ip connections.

> >> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not
> >> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
> >> 
> >> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
> >> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
> >> Marocco !
> >> 
> >> What a joke !
> >
> >..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)
> 
> ;-)
> I have friend in Marocco for more then 23 years, and I have 
> done there very much, NOW the are thinkin, I can do ALL !!! 
>  
> Generaly right, but I need enough time for learning
> 
> Curently I am preparing only a study about this project and 
> its possibility. I think realy it can be done...

..  ;-)

> >Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
> >steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
>  ^^
> This will kill my WaveLAN ;-)

..booo, I said "steam" like in vapor, not "steamy" like in raunchy.  ;-)

> >solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
>  ^^^
> Regenerativ Energies are sibsidized (I was thinking to install the 
> WaveLAN Relays with SolarPower)

..ok, solar cells and batteries.  Hydrogen, makes good lift gas and 
fuel.  No crew to burn, no need for expensive heavy helium.  ;-)

> >> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some
> >> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)
> >
> >..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?
> 
> It depends, because

...flashy plastics can be torn off, heavy metal can be milled flat 
and replaced with tin foil, cooling fins and fans, with piping for 
2 parts glycol 1 water, gasoline or jet fuel as coolant, radiators 
and pumps etc.

..power can be fed off solar and fuel cells or generators and fed
straight into AP's or onto pc main boards, so no need for big 
ass clunky wall plug power supplies. Etc.

..so, we return to sizes, weights, and power etc requirements.  ;-)

> 1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
> project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
> E3 and OC-3
> 
> 2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
> need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
> GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 
 
..you meant http://www.wirelessguys.com/  ;-)
They carry the above gear?

> The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
> support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...

..huh?  They do support line of sight?  6ft ~ 20km, that's _up_. 
Assuming you are correct about their 20 km signal path loss range,
keep in mind that their 20 km is _along_ the surface, say across the 
sea, where the air is nice and thick.  Signal loss from your ground
station up to my relay drone, will be proportional to the air density
_along_ the signal path.

..now, pointing you ground station antennas up say at 11 degrees
elevation to point at my relay at say 20km altitude to match yo

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 02:02:35 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Am 2004-04-09 23:20:47, schrieb Andreas John:
> >Hello!
> >
> >Before all this begins to get silly:
> >You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
> >pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that
> >you 
> 
> I had a talk with the "Ministry of Communicatin" in Rabat and he ask 
> me about the costs. 
> 
> I have answerd "some hundred million Dirham". 
> 
> A littlebit silence and than he ask me "How many hundred million ?"
> 
> OK, between 8 and 12. 
> 
> He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.

..thats like 70 to 110 mill euros.

> >haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
> >probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
> >financial and technical concerns.
> 
> Right, and as I have written, I do only the study for this project. 
> Then I will present this Project som people from the Maroc Gov. and 
> some Finanicial/Technical Specialists to get a summary...
> 
> >Some technical questions:
> >
> >_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security? 
> >To "shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)
> 
> Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
> since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 

..trivial.  As is bandwidth throttling.  

> "Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.

..this is a "billable traffic metering" server product, no?  
I think I've seen such stuff, under the GPL too.  
Viable with hotels, airports or cybercafe's, but 
defeats the fat pipe idea elsewhere, IMHO.

> >_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
> >36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below
> >500ms)
> 
> Yes I know. Not funny for gamers...
> 
> >_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.)
> >take? It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...
> 
> I offer only 64, 128 and 256 kBit. because my Experience with the 
> "Lucent ORINOCO" maybe 2500 Clients with 64 kBit on one 54 MBit
> Channel. 

..chk my link in my other reponse to you. ;-)

> >_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than
> >"99,x% ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that
> >you give you some pence if they violate their SLA.
> 
> YES.
> 
> >_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit
> >in realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)
> 
> But they have only Benchmarked the SOHO-Systems not HighEnd. 

..

...and when you buy several thousand cards, you get what 
specs you want, for a fair bit less.

> >_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close
> >distance

.
 
> >_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better
> >than 802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to
> >"noise" concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in
> >foggy environments.
> 
> 8.000 km of FiberOptic cable ? 
> I do not like to dream about the price...
> 
> But RadioBridges with 34 MBit do maximum 30 km and with 155 MBit 
> around 20 km. So I need many of them. 

...or, to lift them up high.  ;-)
 
> One of the Enterprises that I have contacted was 
>  and the Suggestion:
> 
> 34 MBit Systems:  Sagem, Witcom, Ericsson
> 
> 155 MBit Systems: Ceragon, Ericsson
> 
> Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
> distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.

..or, one or 2 of my relay drones.

> >What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much
> > stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things
> > and 
> >all have much to do with olny one area 
> 
> ;-)
> 
> My OWN Project was the Creation of a CyberCenter which contains:
> 
> 1)  InternetCafe  Based on Debian GNU/Linux
> 2)  Education Center for women  Informatic/Linux/Office
> 3)  WaveLAN-ISP   Only Localy.
> 
> For this it is enough, if I have two E3 (34MBit), a "3Com NETBuilder 
> II" (8-Slot), one Proxim Tsunami MP.11a and the possibility of 
> Serverhosting. 
> 
> Because Internet is realy expensive in Maroc and my Enterprise is 
> "non-lucrativ" I like to drop down the price under the ADSL. 
> 
> But NOW:450.000 DH (41.000 Euro) for ONE E3. Two times more 
>   expensive as in France and fife time more expensive 
>   as in Germany...
> 
> OK, my plan is to create three CyberCenters...
> 
> Fes, Casablanca and Marrakech.

..how about taking Tangier or Tetouan first?  Allows connecting to
Spain, Algeria or Gibraltar, and should cut link pricing "next time".

..also, consider adding the cities along the link spans, to the link
market, adding these to flying relays, is trivial and should be
profitable.

> Each 2 x E3 and 68 MBit ??? 
> 
> Or better two times an OC-3 with 311 MBit ???
> 
> I have ask some friends in different

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:10:44 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hello Arnt, 
> 
> Am 2004-04-09 18:23:03, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> >On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> >> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
> >> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)
> >
> >..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones
> >over the Mediterranean.  
> 
> In germany I have payed for a Redunant E3 at UUnet around 
> 10.000 Euro/month and then the traffic :-/ around 25.000 Euro/month. 
> 
> Oh yes, In Germany You get the Acces realy cheap, 
> but you pay for the traffic !

..dude.  ;-)

> >> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit
> >or > effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
> >
> >..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 
> 
> Yes, but you can only use 4 Channels paralel of the 19.

..???  I can put one AP in each wing tip, one in the nose, and 
one in the tail, and one in the middle? That's 20 links per drone, 
bridge those, and you have 10 bridged links. Also possible to 
fence them away from each other and wire them together etc,
if you really wanna play games here. 

> >side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
> >30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.
> 
> The 54 MBit are only Theory !
> Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.

..riiight, dream on. Say 20Mbps and I'll agree.  ;-)

> So if I install for example 4 Channels in Casablance I 
> have around 40% of all resources there !
> 
> But, if I calculate with 5-6 E3-Links and 42.000 Euro per Link, 
> I will necer earn money with it !

..my experience with isp's, is, set up proxy servers and spam weed
servers, and phase in new customers so your old ones have time to 
stuff their disks full and quit DL'ing stuff at 100% pipe speeds.  ;-)
Here, my isp sells 400/200kbps and sees right now a 300kbps total 
for about 2200 ip connections.

> >> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not
> >> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
> >> 
> >> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
> >> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
> >> Marocco !
> >> 
> >> What a joke !
> >
> >..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)
> 
> ;-)
> I have friend in Marocco for more then 23 years, and I have 
> done there very much, NOW the are thinkin, I can do ALL !!! 
>  
> Generaly right, but I need enough time for learning
> 
> Curently I am preparing only a study about this project and 
> its possibility. I think realy it can be done...

..  ;-)

> >Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
> >steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
>  ^^
> This will kill my WaveLAN ;-)

..booo, I said "steam" like in vapor, not "steamy" like in raunchy.  ;-)

> >solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
>  ^^^
> Regenerativ Energies are sibsidized (I was thinking to install the 
> WaveLAN Relays with SolarPower)

..ok, solar cells and batteries.  Hydrogen, makes good lift gas and 
fuel.  No crew to burn, no need for expensive heavy helium.  ;-)

> >> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some
> >> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)
> >
> >..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?
> 
> It depends, because

...flashy plastics can be torn off, heavy metal can be milled flat 
and replaced with tin foil, cooling fins and fans, with piping for 
2 parts glycol 1 water, gasoline or jet fuel as coolant, radiators 
and pumps etc.

..power can be fed off solar and fuel cells or generators and fed
straight into AP's or onto pc main boards, so no need for big 
ass clunky wall plug power supplies. Etc.

..so, we return to sizes, weights, and power etc requirements.  ;-)

> 1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
> project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
> E3 and OC-3
> 
> 2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
> need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
> GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 
 
..you meant http://www.wirelessguys.com/  ;-)
They carry the above gear?

> The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
> support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...

..huh?  They do support line of sight?  6ft ~ 20km, that's _up_. 
Assuming you are correct about their 20 km signal path loss range,
keep in mind that their 20 km is _along_ the surface, say across the 
sea, where the air is nice and thick.  Signal loss from your ground
station up to my relay drone, will be proportional to the air density
_along_ the signal path.

..now, pointing you ground station antennas up say at 11 degrees
elevation to point at my relay at say 20km altitude to match yo

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 23:20:47, schrieb Andreas John:
>Hello!
>
>Before all this begins to get silly:
>You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
>pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that you 

I had a talk with the "Ministry of Communicatin" in Rabat and he ask 
me about the costs. 

I have answerd "some hundred million Dirham". 

A littlebit silence and than he ask me "How many hundred million ?"

OK, between 8 and 12. 

He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.

>haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
>probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
>financial and technical concerns.

Right, and as I have written, I do only the study for this project. 
Then I will present this Project som people from the Maroc Gov. and 
some Finanicial/Technical Specialists to get a summary...

>Some technical questions:
>
>_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security?  To 
>"shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)

Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 

"Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.

>_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
>36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below 500ms)

Yes I know. Not funny for gamers...

>_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.) take? 
>It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...

I offer only 64, 128 and 256 kBit. because my Experience with the 
"Lucent ORINOCO" maybe 2500 Clients with 64 kBit on one 54 MBit Channel. 

>_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than "99,x% 
>ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that you give you 
>some pence if they violate their SLA.

YES.

>_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit in 
>realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)

But they have only Benchmarked the SOHO-Systems not HighEnd. 

You can not compare a Lucent ORINOCO or a Proxim Tsunami with 
Netgear, Dlink or Linksys. 

For example:The cheap 11 MBit WaveLAN cards like Linksys or 
Dlink hav only 10-15 mWatt.

The Lucent ORINOCO SilverCard 35 mWatt (required 
for the AccessPoints) and the GoldCard 50 mWatt.

Between two Netgear Cards you can have not more 
then 100 Meters with 3-4 MBytes/Sec and than you 
have a fallback to 5,5 MBit

Between two Lucent ORINOCO GoldCards you can have 
more then 600 Meters with 7 MBytes/Sec. 

For the cheap Cards you pay 22-40 Euro but for the 
Lucent ORINOCO GoldCard 109 Euro

>_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close distance

The Lucent ORINOCO is tested in Kehl/Allemagne with up to 1300 Meters 
between the COR (OmniWave 10dBi) and ROR (YAGI 14 dBi) and between ROR 
(OmniWave) and Client without External Antenna up to 500 Meters. 

The Proxim Tsunami MP.11a is Tested in Strasbourg (Center) and do the 
job between the COR (SectorAntenne 120° 12dBi) and ROR (YAGI 16dBi) in 
a distance of up to 8000 Meters (I was not able to get bigger distances). 

Between ROR (OmniWave 10 dBi) and the Clients I have gotten more then 
1000 Meters with 256 kBit and it does not make a fallback to 48 MBit.

>_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better than 
>802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to "noise" 
>concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in foggy environments.

8.000 km of FiberOptic cable ? 
I do not like to dream about the price...

But RadioBridges with 34 MBit do maximum 30 km and with 155 MBit 
around 20 km. So I need many of them. 

One of the Enterprises that I have contacted was 
 and the Suggestion:

34 MBit Systems:Sagem, Witcom, Ericsson

155 MBit Systems:   Ceragon, Ericsson

Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.

>What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much 
>stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things and 
>all have much to do with olny one area 

;-)

My OWN Project was the Creation of a CyberCenter which contains:

1)  InternetCafeBased on Debian GNU/Linux
2)  Education Center for women  Informatic/Linux/Office
3)  WaveLAN-ISP Only Localy.

For this it is enough, if I have two E3 (34MBit), a "3Com NETBuilder 
II" (8-Slot), one Proxim Tsunami MP.11a and the possibility of 
Serverhosting. 

Because Internet is realy expensive in Maroc and my Enterprise is 
"non-lucrativ" I like to drop down the price under the ADSL. 

But NOW:450.000 DH (41.000 Euro) for ONE E3. Two times more 
   

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 23:20:47, schrieb Andreas John:
>Hello!
>
>Before all this begins to get silly:
>You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
>pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that you 

I had a talk with the "Ministry of Communicatin" in Rabat and he ask 
me about the costs. 

I have answerd "some hundred million Dirham". 

A littlebit silence and than he ask me "How many hundred million ?"

OK, between 8 and 12. 

He was meaning, thats a real chiffre.

>haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
>probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
>financial and technical concerns.

Right, and as I have written, I do only the study for this project. 
Then I will present this Project som people from the Maroc Gov. and 
some Finanicial/Technical Specialists to get a summary...

>Some technical questions:
>
>_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security?  To 
>"shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)

Oll Users have a fixed IP-Address and security is VPN/pptp (Included 
since Win98) and downlodable for Win95. 

"Maxina" I do not know and I will check it out.

>_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
>36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below 500ms)

Yes I know. Not funny for gamers...

>_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.) take? 
>It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...

I offer only 64, 128 and 256 kBit. because my Experience with the 
"Lucent ORINOCO" maybe 2500 Clients with 64 kBit on one 54 MBit Channel. 

>_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than "99,x% 
>ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that you give you 
>some pence if they violate their SLA.

YES.

>_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit in 
>realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)

But they have only Benchmarked the SOHO-Systems not HighEnd. 

You can not compare a Lucent ORINOCO or a Proxim Tsunami with 
Netgear, Dlink or Linksys. 

For example:The cheap 11 MBit WaveLAN cards like Linksys or 
Dlink hav only 10-15 mWatt.

The Lucent ORINOCO SilverCard 35 mWatt (required 
for the AccessPoints) and the GoldCard 50 mWatt.

Between two Netgear Cards you can have not more 
then 100 Meters with 3-4 MBytes/Sec and than you 
have a fallback to 5,5 MBit

Between two Lucent ORINOCO GoldCards you can have 
more then 600 Meters with 7 MBytes/Sec. 

For the cheap Cards you pay 22-40 Euro but for the 
Lucent ORINOCO GoldCard 109 Euro

>_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close distance

The Lucent ORINOCO is tested in Kehl/Allemagne with up to 1300 Meters 
between the COR (OmniWave 10dBi) and ROR (YAGI 14 dBi) and between ROR 
(OmniWave) and Client without External Antenna up to 500 Meters. 

The Proxim Tsunami MP.11a is Tested in Strasbourg (Center) and do the 
job between the COR (SectorAntenne 120° 12dBi) and ROR (YAGI 16dBi) in 
a distance of up to 8000 Meters (I was not able to get bigger distances). 

Between ROR (OmniWave 10 dBi) and the Clients I have gotten more then 
1000 Meters with 256 kBit and it does not make a fallback to 48 MBit.

>_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better than 
>802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to "noise" 
>concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in foggy environments.

8.000 km of FiberOptic cable ? 
I do not like to dream about the price...

But RadioBridges with 34 MBit do maximum 30 km and with 155 MBit 
around 20 km. So I need many of them. 

One of the Enterprises that I have contacted was 
 and the Suggestion:

34 MBit Systems:Sagem, Witcom, Ericsson

155 MBit Systems:   Ceragon, Ericsson

Also he told me, that I need between 7 and 10 RadioBridges for a 
distance of 300 km because the turn of the Earth.

>What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much 
>stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things and 
>all have much to do with olny one area 

;-)

My OWN Project was the Creation of a CyberCenter which contains:

1)  InternetCafeBased on Debian GNU/Linux
2)  Education Center for women  Informatic/Linux/Office
3)  WaveLAN-ISP Only Localy.

For this it is enough, if I have two E3 (34MBit), a "3Com NETBuilder 
II" (8-Slot), one Proxim Tsunami MP.11a and the possibility of 
Serverhosting. 

Because Internet is realy expensive in Maroc and my Enterprise is 
"non-lucrativ" I like to drop down the price under the ADSL. 

But NOW:450.000 DH (41.000 Euro) for ONE E3. Two times more 
   

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Andreas John]

Hello!
Before all this begins to get silly:
You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that you 
haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
financial and technical concerns.

Some technical questions:
_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security?  To 
"shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)
_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below 500ms)
_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.) take? 
It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...
_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than "99,x% 
ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that you give you 
some pence if they violate their SLA.
_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit in 
realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)
_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close distance
_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better than 
802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to "noise" 
concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in foggy environments.

What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much 
stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things and 
all have much to do with olny one area 

But that does not mean that you project is impossible, but what you need 
to know can't be learned in 8 weeks 
IMHO you will need Moroc Telecom in one way or the other. At all for 
your connecivity. It's pretty similar in all countries.

Rgds,
Andreas

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Andreas John]

Hello!

Before all this begins to get silly:
You are playing with amount of money which I would not concern as 
pennyware. As from you mails before, it's clearly to recognize that you 
haven an idea, but no concept nor the skills you need. You will need 
probably consultants who help you to find a concept that works - in 
financial and technical concerns.

Some technical questions:

_ How will you do the accounting for wireless connections? Security?  To 
"shoot from the hip" I would recommend Maxina (www.maxina.de)
_ Did You know that Satellite Communictions has huge latencey ( 2 * 
36000Km distance ... I guess you won't be able to get a ping below 500ms)
_ Scalabilty? How many users can an accesspoint (Tsunami et al.) take? 
It's probably not an bandwidth concern ...
_ Did you know that "100% ISPs" are generally nothing else than "99,x% 
ISPs" when it comes to reality? The only advantage is, that you give you 
some pence if they violate their SLA.
_ Did you know that "54Mbit" 802.11a doesn't really give you 54 Mbit in 
realiy? (huge overhead, all German readers: C'T benchmarked it)
_ For reliable wireless LAN you need line of sight or very close distance
_ 34Mbit and 155Mbit "radio" LAN Connection Equipment is far better than 
802.x but very expensive and maybe shitty to when it comes to "noise" 
concerns. LaserLinks are more reliable but don't work in foggy environments.

What you try to build up is an ISP + Carrier + Datacenter. Whooo much 
stuff. There specialists out that only do one of there three things and 
all have much to do with olny one area 

But that does not mean that you project is impossible, but what you need 
to know can't be learned in 8 weeks 
IMHO you will need Moroc Telecom in one way or the other. At all for 
your connecivity. It's pretty similar in all countries.

Rgds,
Andreas


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Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Arnt, 

Am 2004-04-09 18:23:03, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
>> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)
>
>..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones over
>the Mediterranean.  

In germany I have payed for a Redunant E3 at UUnet around 
10.000 Euro/month and then the traffic :-/ around 25.000 Euro/month. 

Oh yes, In Germany You get the Acces realy cheap, 
but you pay for the traffic !

>> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
>> effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
>
>..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 

Yes, but you can only use 4 Channels paralel of the 19.

>side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
>30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.

The 54 MBit are only Theory !
Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.

So if I install for example 4 Channels in Casablance I 
have around 40% of all resources there !

But, if I calculate with 5-6 E3-Links and 42.000 Euro per Link, 
I will necer earn money with it !

>> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
>> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
>> 
>> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
>> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
>> Marocco !
>> 
>> What a joke !
>
>..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)

;-)
I have friend in Marocco for more then 23 years, and I have 
done there very much, NOW the are thinkin, I can do ALL !!! 

Generaly right, but I need enough time for learning

Curently I am preparing only a study about this project and 
its possibility. I think realy it can be done...

>Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
>steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
 ^^
This will kill my WaveLAN ;-)

>solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
 ^^^
Regenerativ Energies are sibsidized (I was thinking to install the 
WaveLAN Relays with SolarPower)

>> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
>> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)
>
>..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?

It depends, because

1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
E3 and OC-3

2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 



The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...
 
What I need is a study about installing wired ! 
Dont know the price for the special cable, the Repeaters, ...

>..well, if you reel out a fiber spool or buy my relay drones, I guess 
>you'll still need at least one gateway isp, a full set of new isp
>servers, staff, and ofcourse at least one ip range, to set up your 
>new Maroccan isp.  

I was thinking about minimum two independant and 100% redunant ISP's. 
OK, I have already 26 Server prepared, but it is only for the 
CyberCenter and can support up to 100.000 customers . 

Bigger Backbone need bigger Servers...
So 100 MBit FullDuplex will not enough.

>..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight to
   
You mean via Satelit ?
I have read an Documentation that one Satelit Link can support 
up to 50 MBit. Is this right ?

But there are already concurence:  

>both ends, carrying bridges, so both ground startions point link
>antennas to that spot half way across the sea, say at 6ft, to 
>stay out of the way of airliners etc.  Can even use wifi gear.

OK, this is logicaly

>..and over cities, access point server drones, with bandwidth
>throttling, loitering at anywhere from 1000 to 2ft? 
>(Or 6ft, to stay clear of the airliner etc traffic.)

I can use the Proxim Tsunami MP.11a which sopports with the 
Outdoor Router Software upgrade Traffic Shaping from 64 kBit 
to some MBit (do not know exactly)

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 17:49:42, schrieb Ralph Paßgang:
>Am Freitag 09 April 2004 16:03 schrieb Michelle Konzack:
>> Hello,
>
>Hi :)

Hello, 

>in theory this is correct, but you should think about good manageable 
>switches, so that you can build vlans. Without vlans your security in your 
>network is not so good, because every computer can arpspoof and so sniff in 
>the traffic of the other ips/nets you have conntected to the switch. Even 
>Man-in-the-middle attacks are possible, if you don't think about vlans. You 
>can also bind only fixed MAC Addresses to the switch ports, so that nobody 
>can spoof another MAC/ARP of others, but I would prefer vlans :)

This is what the CISCO-Support told me too.
I have downloaded tons of PDF's... 
But I think, I need an Army to reed it all !

>> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to
>> the other Backbones ?
>
>okay... in short: You need to contact the ripe and ask them for an "AS" Number 
>and for an IP-Network for you.
>
>If you got you own AS Number, you can configure your cisco router (or every 
>other router which is able to use BGP (routing-protocol)) to annouce this AS 
>to the next AS (which normaly is the AS of your uplink (Maroc Telecom for 
>example). The AS of your uplink will annouce your AS to his next AS and so 
>on, until every AS in the world nows how to reach your AS.

Ah OK, this was not clear enough. 
(I was on the Website of RIPE but does not understood all well)

>And you can announce over this AS Path your IPs (you got from the RIPE).
>
>After you made this, you should be reachable from all over the world...

In theory ;-) easier as I was thinking...

>> Any Informations are Welcome...
>
>I can only give you a short overview over the things you need... (bgp router, 
>AS-Number, IP-Network). But you should inform yourself on other internet 

Yes I know...

I had only a small CyberCenter-Network Project with some WaveLAN 
AccessPoints but now the Idea is exploding and now it overrun me... 

My brain is smoking (my ADSL-Rooter and mozilla too) because I am 
working curently 15-18 hours a day

>sites... just search for: "bgp" which stands for "border gateway protocol" or 
>AS. Even the ripe site should be quite informative.  

OK, I know. Have gotten a used CISCO which support four OC-3 with BGP-4.

>In short: BGP is the protocol that makes the internet work, because all 
>provider use this protocoll for their dynamic routing.
>
>With bgp you can also use multiple uplinks, even with the same network. So 
>that you can send and recieve pakets for you network over two uplinks for 
>example. This can be used for redundancy and for combining multiple uplinks 
>(if you need a lot of bandwidth)

2 x 1 GBit ;-) 
Nice Price for router which do the Job redunant... :-/

>> Greetings and nice Easter.
>> Michelle
>
>Hope I could help you a bit.

Yes thanks, Now I know a little Bit more and can search more spcific.

>-- Ralph

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 17:32:57, schrieb Richard Zuidhof:
>Michelle Konzack wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
>> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not
>> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
>
>Aren't there other providers? I remember many routes to Morocco using 

Unfortunately NO. 
If you like to be ISP you need a Licence from the ANRT (Authorité 
Nationale de Reglementation des Telecommunications) 

I have ask them and there is no  other Backbone-Provider as the 
"Maroc Telecom". OK, there are SkyDirect.net (Satelit) but for 
one 50 MBit channel I can install many GigaBit cables...

>Seabone. You can find a contact at http://www.tisparkle.it/contacts.htm

OK, visited but this where I am hanging (I have a CISCO router which 
supports 4 x OC-3): 

   /home1/michelle/tmp/temp ___
 /
|  BGP-4 Routing
|  Our network, which has autonomous system number AS6762, 
|  supports BGP-4, in addition to static routing.
|  BGP-4 (Border Gateway Protocol version 4) provides loop-free 
|  interdomain routing between Autonomous Systems; it allows 
|  customers to be connected with multiple links to several 
|  Internet Transit Providers (i.e. to be "multi-homed").
|  The connection running BGP-4 must be carefully studied and 
|  needs to meet the following prerequisites:
|  
|  * customer preferably has its own IP addresses space;
|  * customer is responsible for maintaining his routing;
|  * customer needs to have his routing policy filed at RIPE. 
 \_


Many things to learn...

And the the Office in Rabat/marocco:



IAM (Itisalat Al'Maghrib) is the "Maroc Telecom" and "SeaBone" has no 
own POP in Marocco. It is the "Maroc Telecom". So this solution ist a 
little bit too expensive. 

>And I know also Sprint has a PoP available in Morocco. There should be 
>more. What about France Telecom, Telenor and Telefonica?

NO, all Provider are using the Network of the "Maroc Telecom" and because 
there is no second Provider they can make the Price how they want.

It is not good for Clients. 

See prices of ADSL:

http://abonne.menara.ma/adsl.asp

1609 Dirham are 145 Euro !!!
I pay in Strasbourg 14,90 Euro with unlimited Traffic.

>Of course you should plan your CyberCenter close to an important 
>crossroads of telecom infrastructure since Maroc Telecom will probably 
>charge a lot for leased lines with such high bandwidth while you 
>actually need dark fiber.

I know, I have all prices here.

Even if I have my own Backbone to my NetworkCenter and need for 
example some E1, E2 or E3 to my CyberCenters and InternetCafes, 
LL'a are too expensive. 

Speed:  E1 (1920kBit)   E2 (8,4MBit)E3 (34MBit)

Installation 4000 ¤ 13300 ¤ 17500 ¤

Local3000 ¤  5600 ¤  9700 ¤
   <=  35 km 3200 ¤  6000 ¤ 11400 ¤
 35 - 100 km 3500 ¤  7300 ¤ 16800 ¤
100 - 200 km 4000 ¤  9200 ¤ 24900 ¤
> 200 km 5200 ¤ 14000 ¤ 45100 ¤

So Leasd Lines are too expensive !

A friend of me in South-Afrika use 34 MBit RadioBridges (max 30-40km) 
and use Lucent ORINOCO Outdoor Routers for the Last-Mile Access...

Works quiet well. - No cable required. He told me, that the Cable was 
much more expensive as the 34 MBit RadioBridge and the Outdoor Router. 

>kind regards,
>
>Richard Zuidhof

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Arnt, 

Am 2004-04-09 18:23:03, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
>> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)
>
>..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones over
>the Mediterranean.  

In germany I have payed for a Redunant E3 at UUnet around 
10.000 Euro/month and then the traffic :-/ around 25.000 Euro/month. 

Oh yes, In Germany You get the Acces realy cheap, 
but you pay for the traffic !

>> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
>> effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
>
>..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 

Yes, but you can only use 4 Channels paralel of the 19.

>side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
>30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.

The 54 MBit are only Theory !
Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.

So if I install for example 4 Channels in Casablance I 
have around 40% of all resources there !

But, if I calculate with 5-6 E3-Links and 42.000 Euro per Link, 
I will necer earn money with it !

>> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
>> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
>> 
>> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
>> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
>> Marocco !
>> 
>> What a joke !
>
>..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)

;-)
I have friend in Marocco for more then 23 years, and I have 
done there very much, NOW the are thinkin, I can do ALL !!! 

Generaly right, but I need enough time for learning

Curently I am preparing only a study about this project and 
its possibility. I think realy it can be done...

>Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
>steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
 ^^
This will kill my WaveLAN ;-)

>solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
 ^^^
Regenerativ Energies are sibsidized (I was thinking to install the 
WaveLAN Relays with SolarPower)

>> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
>> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)
>
>..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?

It depends, because

1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
E3 and OC-3

2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 



The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...
 
What I need is a study about installing wired ! 
Dont know the price for the special cable, the Repeaters, ...

>..well, if you reel out a fiber spool or buy my relay drones, I guess 
>you'll still need at least one gateway isp, a full set of new isp
>servers, staff, and ofcourse at least one ip range, to set up your 
>new Maroccan isp.  

I was thinking about minimum two independant and 100% redunant ISP's. 
OK, I have already 26 Server prepared, but it is only for the 
CyberCenter and can support up to 100.000 customers . 

Bigger Backbone need bigger Servers...
So 100 MBit FullDuplex will not enough.

>..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight to
   
You mean via Satelit ?
I have read an Documentation that one Satelit Link can support 
up to 50 MBit. Is this right ?

But there are already concurence:  

>both ends, carrying bridges, so both ground startions point link
>antennas to that spot half way across the sea, say at 6ft, to 
>stay out of the way of airliners etc.  Can even use wifi gear.

OK, this is logicaly

>..and over cities, access point server drones, with bandwidth
>throttling, loitering at anywhere from 1000 to 2ft? 
>(Or 6ft, to stay clear of the airliner etc traffic.)

I can use the Proxim Tsunami MP.11a which sopports with the 
Outdoor Router Software upgrade Traffic Shaping from 64 kBit 
to some MBit (do not know exactly)

Greetings
Michelle

-- 
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Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 17:49:42, schrieb Ralph Paßgang:
>Am Freitag 09 April 2004 16:03 schrieb Michelle Konzack:
>> Hello,
>
>Hi :)

Hello, 

>in theory this is correct, but you should think about good manageable 
>switches, so that you can build vlans. Without vlans your security in your 
>network is not so good, because every computer can arpspoof and so sniff in 
>the traffic of the other ips/nets you have conntected to the switch. Even 
>Man-in-the-middle attacks are possible, if you don't think about vlans. You 
>can also bind only fixed MAC Addresses to the switch ports, so that nobody 
>can spoof another MAC/ARP of others, but I would prefer vlans :)

This is what the CISCO-Support told me too.
I have downloaded tons of PDF's... 
But I think, I need an Army to reed it all !

>> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to
>> the other Backbones ?
>
>okay... in short: You need to contact the ripe and ask them for an "AS" Number 
>and for an IP-Network for you.
>
>If you got you own AS Number, you can configure your cisco router (or every 
>other router which is able to use BGP (routing-protocol)) to annouce this AS 
>to the next AS (which normaly is the AS of your uplink (Maroc Telecom for 
>example). The AS of your uplink will annouce your AS to his next AS and so 
>on, until every AS in the world nows how to reach your AS.

Ah OK, this was not clear enough. 
(I was on the Website of RIPE but does not understood all well)

>And you can announce over this AS Path your IPs (you got from the RIPE).
>
>After you made this, you should be reachable from all over the world...

In theory ;-) easier as I was thinking...

>> Any Informations are Welcome...
>
>I can only give you a short overview over the things you need... (bgp router, 
>AS-Number, IP-Network). But you should inform yourself on other internet 

Yes I know...

I had only a small CyberCenter-Network Project with some WaveLAN 
AccessPoints but now the Idea is exploding and now it overrun me... 

My brain is smoking (my ADSL-Rooter and mozilla too) because I am 
working curently 15-18 hours a day

>sites... just search for: "bgp" which stands for "border gateway protocol" or 
>AS. Even the ripe site should be quite informative.  

OK, I know. Have gotten a used CISCO which support four OC-3 with BGP-4.

>In short: BGP is the protocol that makes the internet work, because all 
>provider use this protocoll for their dynamic routing.
>
>With bgp you can also use multiple uplinks, even with the same network. So 
>that you can send and recieve pakets for you network over two uplinks for 
>example. This can be used for redundancy and for combining multiple uplinks 
>(if you need a lot of bandwidth)

2 x 1 GBit ;-) 
Nice Price for router which do the Job redunant... :-/

>> Greetings and nice Easter.
>> Michelle
>
>Hope I could help you a bit.

Yes thanks, Now I know a little Bit more and can search more spcific.

>-- Ralph

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2004-04-09 17:32:57, schrieb Richard Zuidhof:
>Michelle Konzack wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
>> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not
>> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
>
>Aren't there other providers? I remember many routes to Morocco using 

Unfortunately NO. 
If you like to be ISP you need a Licence from the ANRT (Authorité 
Nationale de Reglementation des Telecommunications) 

I have ask them and there is no  other Backbone-Provider as the 
"Maroc Telecom". OK, there are SkyDirect.net (Satelit) but for 
one 50 MBit channel I can install many GigaBit cables...

>Seabone. You can find a contact at http://www.tisparkle.it/contacts.htm

OK, visited but this where I am hanging (I have a CISCO router which 
supports 4 x OC-3): 

   /home1/michelle/tmp/temp ___
 /
|  BGP-4 Routing
|  Our network, which has autonomous system number AS6762, 
|  supports BGP-4, in addition to static routing.
|  BGP-4 (Border Gateway Protocol version 4) provides loop-free 
|  interdomain routing between Autonomous Systems; it allows 
|  customers to be connected with multiple links to several 
|  Internet Transit Providers (i.e. to be "multi-homed").
|  The connection running BGP-4 must be carefully studied and 
|  needs to meet the following prerequisites:
|  
|  * customer preferably has its own IP addresses space;
|  * customer is responsible for maintaining his routing;
|  * customer needs to have his routing policy filed at RIPE. 
 \_


Many things to learn...

And the the Office in Rabat/marocco:



IAM (Itisalat Al'Maghrib) is the "Maroc Telecom" and "SeaBone" has no 
own POP in Marocco. It is the "Maroc Telecom". So this solution ist a 
little bit too expensive. 

>And I know also Sprint has a PoP available in Morocco. There should be 
>more. What about France Telecom, Telenor and Telefonica?

NO, all Provider are using the Network of the "Maroc Telecom" and because 
there is no second Provider they can make the Price how they want.

It is not good for Clients. 

See prices of ADSL:

http://abonne.menara.ma/adsl.asp

1609 Dirham are 145 Euro !!!
I pay in Strasbourg 14,90 Euro with unlimited Traffic.

>Of course you should plan your CyberCenter close to an important 
>crossroads of telecom infrastructure since Maroc Telecom will probably 
>charge a lot for leased lines with such high bandwidth while you 
>actually need dark fiber.

I know, I have all prices here.

Even if I have my own Backbone to my NetworkCenter and need for 
example some E1, E2 or E3 to my CyberCenters and InternetCafes, 
LL'a are too expensive. 

Speed:  E1 (1920kBit)   E2 (8,4MBit)E3 (34MBit)

Installation 4000 ¤ 13300 ¤ 17500 ¤

Local3000 ¤  5600 ¤  9700 ¤
   <=  35 km 3200 ¤  6000 ¤ 11400 ¤
 35 - 100 km 3500 ¤  7300 ¤ 16800 ¤
100 - 200 km 4000 ¤  9200 ¤ 24900 ¤
> 200 km 5200 ¤ 14000 ¤ 45100 ¤

So Leasd Lines are too expensive !

A friend of me in South-Afrika use 34 MBit RadioBridges (max 30-40km) 
and use Lucent ORINOCO Outdoor Routers for the Last-Mile Access...

Works quiet well. - No cable required. He told me, that the Cable was 
much more expensive as the 34 MBit RadioBridge and the Outdoor Router. 

>kind regards,
>
>Richard Zuidhof

Greetings
Michelle

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Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hello, 
> 
> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not 
> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
> 
> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
> 
> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)

..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones over
the Mediterranean.  

> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
> effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
> >

..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 
side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.

> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
> 
> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
> Marocco !
> 
> What a joke !

..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)
Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
a fossil fired launch-n-climb vehicle to lift the relay drone to
altitude.  For heavier bridge gear, diesel power, and air-to-air
refuelling once a day or twice a week up there?

> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)

..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?

> Now my Question:
> 
> Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it 
> is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need 
> a little bit more cable. 
> 
> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to 
> the other Backbones ? 
> 
> Any Informations are Welcome...

..well, if you reel out a fiber spool or buy my relay drones, I guess 
you'll still need at least one gateway isp, a full set of new isp
servers, staff, and ofcourse at least one ip range, to set up your 
new Maroccan isp.  

..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight to
both ends, carrying bridges, so both ground startions point link
antennas to that spot half way across the sea, say at 6ft, to 
stay out of the way of airliners etc.  Can even use wifi gear.

..and over cities, access point server drones, with bandwidth
throttling, loitering at anywhere from 1000 to 2ft? 
(Or 6ft, to stay clear of the airliner etc traffic.)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Ralph Paßgang]

Am Freitag 09 April 2004 16:03 schrieb Michelle Konzack:
> Hello,

Hi :)

> [...]
> Now my Question:
>
> Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it
> is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need
> a little bit more cable.

in theory this is correct, but you should think about good manageable 
switches, so that you can build vlans. Without vlans your security in your 
network is not so good, because every computer can arpspoof and so sniff in 
the traffic of the other ips/nets you have conntected to the switch. Even 
Man-in-the-middle attacks are possible, if you don't think about vlans. You 
can also bind only fixed MAC Addresses to the switch ports, so that nobody 
can spoof another MAC/ARP of others, but I would prefer vlans :)

> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to
> the other Backbones ?

okay... in short: You need to contact the ripe and ask them for an "AS" Number 
and for an IP-Network for you.

If you got you own AS Number, you can configure your cisco router (or every 
other router which is able to use BGP (routing-protocol)) to annouce this AS 
to the next AS (which normaly is the AS of your uplink (Maroc Telecom for 
example). The AS of your uplink will annouce your AS to his next AS and so 
on, until every AS in the world nows how to reach your AS.

And you can announce over this AS Path your IPs (you got from the RIPE).

After you made this, you should be reachable from all over the world...

> Any Informations are Welcome...

I can only give you a short overview over the things you need... (bgp router, 
AS-Number, IP-Network). But you should inform yourself on other internet 
sites... just search for: "bgp" which stands for "border gateway protocol" or 
AS. Even the ripe site should be quite informative.  

In short: BGP is the protocol that makes the internet work, because all 
provider use this protocoll for their dynamic routing.

With bgp you can also use multiple uplinks, even with the same network. So 
that you can send and recieve pakets for you network over two uplinks for 
example. This can be used for redundancy and for combining multiple uplinks 
(if you need a lot of bandwidth)
 
> Greetings and nice Easter.
> Michelle

Hope I could help you a bit.

-- Ralph

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Richard Zuidhof]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello,
>
> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not
> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
Aren't there other providers? I remember many routes to Morocco using 
Seabone. You can find a contact at http://www.tisparkle.it/contacts.htm
And I know also Sprint has a PoP available in Morocco. There should be 
more. What about France Telecom, Telenor and Telefonica?

Of course you should plan your CyberCenter close to an important 
crossroads of telecom infrastructure since Maroc Telecom will probably 
charge a lot for leased lines with such high bandwidth while you 
actually need dark fiber.

kind regards,
Richard Zuidhof

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hello, 
> 
> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not 
> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
> 
> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
> 
> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)

..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones over
the Mediterranean.  

> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
> effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
> >

..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 
side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.

> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
> 
> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
> Marocco !
> 
> What a joke !

..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)
Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
a fossil fired launch-n-climb vehicle to lift the relay drone to
altitude.  For heavier bridge gear, diesel power, and air-to-air
refuelling once a day or twice a week up there?

> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)

..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?

> Now my Question:
> 
> Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it 
> is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need 
> a little bit more cable. 
> 
> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to 
> the other Backbones ? 
> 
> Any Informations are Welcome...

..well, if you reel out a fiber spool or buy my relay drones, I guess 
you'll still need at least one gateway isp, a full set of new isp
servers, staff, and ofcourse at least one ip range, to set up your 
new Maroccan isp.  

..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight to
both ends, carrying bridges, so both ground startions point link
antennas to that spot half way across the sea, say at 6ft, to 
stay out of the way of airliners etc.  Can even use wifi gear.

..and over cities, access point server drones, with bandwidth
throttling, loitering at anywhere from 1000 to 2ft? 
(Or 6ft, to stay clear of the airliner etc traffic.)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello, 

because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is 
exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not 
provided from the "Maroc Telecom"

They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!

And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)

Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!

Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
installing a second Internet-Network !!! 

Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to Marocco !

What a joke !

OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)

Now my Question:

Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it 
is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need 
a little bit more cable. 

BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to 
the other Backbones ? 

Any Informations are Welcome...

Greetings and nice Easter.
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Ralph Paßgang]

Am Freitag 09 April 2004 16:03 schrieb Michelle Konzack:
> Hello,

Hi :)

> [...]
> Now my Question:
>
> Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it
> is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need
> a little bit more cable.

in theory this is correct, but you should think about good manageable 
switches, so that you can build vlans. Without vlans your security in your 
network is not so good, because every computer can arpspoof and so sniff in 
the traffic of the other ips/nets you have conntected to the switch. Even 
Man-in-the-middle attacks are possible, if you don't think about vlans. You 
can also bind only fixed MAC Addresses to the switch ports, so that nobody 
can spoof another MAC/ARP of others, but I would prefer vlans :)

> BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to
> the other Backbones ?

okay... in short: You need to contact the ripe and ask them for an "AS" Number 
and for an IP-Network for you.

If you got you own AS Number, you can configure your cisco router (or every 
other router which is able to use BGP (routing-protocol)) to annouce this AS 
to the next AS (which normaly is the AS of your uplink (Maroc Telecom for 
example). The AS of your uplink will annouce your AS to his next AS and so 
on, until every AS in the world nows how to reach your AS.

And you can announce over this AS Path your IPs (you got from the RIPE).

After you made this, you should be reachable from all over the world...

> Any Informations are Welcome...

I can only give you a short overview over the things you need... (bgp router, 
AS-Number, IP-Network). But you should inform yourself on other internet 
sites... just search for: "bgp" which stands for "border gateway protocol" or 
AS. Even the ripe site should be quite informative.  

In short: BGP is the protocol that makes the internet work, because all 
provider use this protocoll for their dynamic routing.

With bgp you can also use multiple uplinks, even with the same network. So 
that you can send and recieve pakets for you network over two uplinks for 
example. This can be used for redundancy and for combining multiple uplinks 
(if you need a lot of bandwidth)
 
> Greetings and nice Easter.
> Michelle

Hope I could help you a bit.

-- Ralph


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Richard Zuidhof]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello,
>
> because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is
> exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not
> provided from the "Maroc Telecom"
Aren't there other providers? I remember many routes to Morocco using 
Seabone. You can find a contact at http://www.tisparkle.it/contacts.htm
And I know also Sprint has a PoP available in Morocco. There should be 
more. What about France Telecom, Telenor and Telefonica?

Of course you should plan your CyberCenter close to an important 
crossroads of telecom infrastructure since Maroc Telecom will probably 
charge a lot for leased lines with such high bandwidth while you 
actually need dark fiber.

kind regards,

Richard Zuidhof

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Little BIG problem with Backbone

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello, 

because I am in paning of a CyberCenter Network in Marocco the idea is 
exploding !!! Exactly, I need very much Backbone-Power which can not 
provided from the "Maroc Telecom"

They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!

And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)

Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit or 
effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!

Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not 
installing a second Internet-Network !!! 

Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to Marocco !

What a joke !

OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some 
other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)

Now my Question:

Creating a Local GBit-Network in Marocco is generaly no Problem, it 
is not a big difference between it and my local network, exept I need 
a little bit more cable. 

BUT how does it work with the Connection to the Internet, exactly to 
the other Backbones ? 

Any Informations are Welcome...

Greetings and nice Easter.
Michelle

-- 
Registered Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]