Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Tue, 16 May 2000, Mark Brown wrote: > On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:28:40PM +0200, Robert Varga wrote: > > > Its documentation is a joke I think. It is 800 pages, but unusable for > > anything but reading it from the start, but if you want to search in it > > quickly and haven't read it before, because you just want to put in > > something, then it is unusable. > > Depends on what you're after in terms of documentation, of course - I > always found it quite nice when I used Exim. It's also worth looking at > the FAQ which is more oriented towards "I'd like to..." when you don't > know the sort of Exim feature you'd use. It fulfils a lot of the roles > of a tutorial-type section in the manual. I told what I told from my experience. I tried to set up virtual users and virtual domains, looked at the FAQ, and did not know where to put in the config file, what I found there. It's simply unusable this way, or at least it was that a year ago when I tried it. Even sendmail documentation is better than that, at least I managed to do it with sendmail which I put up instead of exim then. After that, I looked at qmail, and now I don't install anything else on any machine I install. > > > Speed: much slower than qmail. > > It's not that bad - from my memories of both Exim and qmail I think that > qmail has some much more aggressive defaults than Exim. I could be > wrong on that, but it's certainly possible to push a good load through > Exim. > You should try a stress test. :) Robert
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:28:40PM +0200, Robert Varga wrote: > Its documentation is a joke I think. It is 800 pages, but unusable for > anything but reading it from the start, but if you want to search in it > quickly and haven't read it before, because you just want to put in > something, then it is unusable. Depends on what you're after in terms of documentation, of course - I always found it quite nice when I used Exim. It's also worth looking at the FAQ which is more oriented towards "I'd like to..." when you don't know the sort of Exim feature you'd use. It fulfils a lot of the roles of a tutorial-type section in the manual. > Speed: much slower than qmail. It's not that bad - from my memories of both Exim and qmail I think that qmail has some much more aggressive defaults than Exim. I could be wrong on that, but it's certainly possible to push a good load through Exim. -- Mark Brown mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Trying to avoid grumpiness) http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/ EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/ pgpxDLl0fmaXM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
Exim: Its documentation is a joke I think. It is 800 pages, but unusable for anything but reading it from the start, but if you want to search in it quickly and haven't read it before, because you just want to put in something, then it is unusable. Features: probably rich enough. Speed: much slower than qmail. Regards, Robert Varga On Mon, 15 May 2000, Irwan Hadi wrote: > At 01:03 PM 5/15/00 +0200, Russell Coker wrote: > >On Mon, 15 May 2000, Robert Varga wrote: > >Qmail isn't a regular package because it's got licence issues. > > > >Also Qmail is lacking in functionality when compared to Postfix, Sendmail, or > >probably any other Unix mail server. Qmail is fast and reliable, it's good > >for installing for one of those clients who is expected to stuff up Postfix > >config files. > > how about exim then ? (Www.exim.org) > >
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
At 01:03 PM 5/15/00 +0200, Russell Coker wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Robert Varga wrote: Qmail isn't a regular package because it's got licence issues. Also Qmail is lacking in functionality when compared to Postfix, Sendmail, or probably any other Unix mail server. Qmail is fast and reliable, it's good for installing for one of those clients who is expected to stuff up Postfix config files. how about exim then ? (Www.exim.org)
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
>> >Use qmail and vpopmail. They are both packaged to debian, so there should >> >not be much of a problem for it. >> >> Qmail isn't a regular package because it's got licence issues. >> > >It is in debian in source package form, it can be built with one command, >so it is not a real problem I think. It just makes things more difficult. >> For a serious server system it will rapidly become annoying for the >> administrator because it just won't do the things you want. >> >> Try spam blocking (both ORBs and header filtering) and address re-writing for >> two things that Qmail falls down on. > >Address rewriting: look at the mess822 package on DJB's homepage, for one. >For address rewriting in messages originating on the qmail host, it is >even easier than that. You just need to wrap qmail-inject. I have done it >and it is not that hard to do. Much easier in Postfix where the functionality is built in. >> I doubt that Qmail is any more secure than Postfix. I doubt that it is any >> faster. >> > >It can be said the other way round as well. I don't personally know True. >postfix, but I don't think it would be faster than qmail. About security: >there is one thing with postfix: it is under current development, ergo it >always can contain newly introduced security holes. Of course that also You can put the package on hold so that dselect won't upgrade it... >means fast error fixes, however. Qmail is unfortunately not under visible >development, no one knows what DJB does currently with qmail. > >The licencing is the biggest drawback in qmail I think. Yes. -- My current location - X marks the spot. X X X
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Russell Coker wrote: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Robert Varga wrote: > >Use qmail and vpopmail. They are both packaged to debian, so there should > >not be much of a problem for it. > > Qmail isn't a regular package because it's got licence issues. > It is in debian in source package form, it can be built with one command, so it is not a real problem I think. > Also Qmail is lacking in functionality when compared to Postfix, Sendmail, or > probably any other Unix mail server. Qmail is fast and reliable, it's good > for installing for one of those clients who is expected to stuff up Postfix > config files. I did not really find any lacking functionality for my needs currently, and we are using it as an ISP customer mailserver and as a company mailserver as well. > > For a serious server system it will rapidly become annoying for the > administrator because it just won't do the things you want. > > Try spam blocking (both ORBs and header filtering) and address re-writing for > two things that Qmail falls down on. Address rewriting: look at the mess822 package on DJB's homepage, for one. For address rewriting in messages originating on the qmail host, it is even easier than that. You just need to wrap qmail-inject. I have done it and it is not that hard to do. SPAM blocking: it is not that hard to do, the biggest problem is always the algorithm and patterns you filter on. > > >Mails are stored in maildir format, which is NFS-safe without the need of > >locking. > > Postfix does this too. > > >I have no experience with Postfix myself, but qmail is regarded as the > >fastest and most secure mailserver, and I think it is much easier > >configurable than sendmail or exim. I really have no problem with it > >myself. > > Being easier to configure than Sendmail is an understatement. Sendmail is > the hardest to configure and Qmail is the easiest. > > I doubt that Qmail is any more secure than Postfix. I doubt that it is any > faster. > It can be said the other way round as well. I don't personally know postfix, but I don't think it would be faster than qmail. About security: there is one thing with postfix: it is under current development, ergo it always can contain newly introduced security holes. Of course that also means fast error fixes, however. Qmail is unfortunately not under visible development, no one knows what DJB does currently with qmail. The licencing is the biggest drawback in qmail I think.
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Robert Varga wrote: >Use qmail and vpopmail. They are both packaged to debian, so there should >not be much of a problem for it. Qmail isn't a regular package because it's got licence issues. Also Qmail is lacking in functionality when compared to Postfix, Sendmail, or probably any other Unix mail server. Qmail is fast and reliable, it's good for installing for one of those clients who is expected to stuff up Postfix config files. For a serious server system it will rapidly become annoying for the administrator because it just won't do the things you want. Try spam blocking (both ORBs and header filtering) and address re-writing for two things that Qmail falls down on. >Mails are stored in maildir format, which is NFS-safe without the need of >locking. Postfix does this too. >I have no experience with Postfix myself, but qmail is regarded as the >fastest and most secure mailserver, and I think it is much easier >configurable than sendmail or exim. I really have no problem with it >myself. Being easier to configure than Sendmail is an understatement. Sendmail is the hardest to configure and Qmail is the easiest. I doubt that Qmail is any more secure than Postfix. I doubt that it is any faster. -- My current location - X marks the spot. X X X
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chad A. Adlawan wrote: >> For best performance have no direct TCP connections between your mail server >> and the outside world. Have the MX records point to an inbound-relay which >> sends the mail to the real server. > > hello :-) > > i pretty much dont get this part. what should be done is to point the >MX record to another mail server ? what also confused me is, how does that >server send the mail to the "real server" ? errr, did i ask the right >question ? Firstly could you please configure your email client to put no more than 79 characters on each line, it makes things easier to read and to quote. You have the inbound relay configured to send all mail for the domain to the IP address of the real server. Or you could just configure the inbound relay to send all mail it receives to the real mail server. -- My current location - X marks the spot. X X X
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
Use qmail and vpopmail. They are both packaged to debian, so there should not be much of a problem for it. Vpopmail is a virtual domain pop3 server suited for serving as many as 23million POP3 mailboxes taking up only one system user, integrating with qmail and other qmail-extension software. It can store user information in cdb datafiles or in a mysql database. It can serve virtual domains. Of course it also provides POP3 for the system users as well. In the upcoming version postgresql and oracle databases can also serve as a means for storing user information. Mails are stored in maildir format, which is NFS-safe without the need of locking. Qmail package can be built from the qmail-src package. Vpopmail package can be built from the source downloaded from www.sury.cz/Debian/vpopmail or you can find binary versions of the package as well at the same place. I suggest downloading the source since a few options need to be set at compile-time, although the packager did incorporate a few things to provide a means for runtime configuration, but not every option is runtime configurable, yet. An IMAP server is also provided for qmail and vpopmail called courier-imap, it is also packaged for debian as far as I remember, but I haven't tried installing it yet. Ask the vpopmail packager about installation comments. I have no experience with Postfix myself, but qmail is regarded as the fastest and most secure mailserver, and I think it is much easier configurable than sendmail or exim. I really have no problem with it myself. Regards, Robert Varga On Sun, 14 May 2000, Russell Coker wrote: > On Fri, 12 May 2000, Craig Sanders wrote: > >On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:10:40PM +0800, Chad A. Adlawan wrote: > >> does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build > >> a mail server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more > >> than 65,000 users ? i.e., what are the available methods (and > >> what are the best ones) of having mail users w/o having them on > >> /etc/passwd. > > > >i'd suggest postfix + cyrus. from comments in the postfix-users list, it > >seems to be a nearly ideal combination for doing what you want. > > I'd suggest Postfix + the Qmail POP server. Postfix (and Postfix-tls) are in > Debian. There's a package of the Qmail source which allows you to compile > your own Qmail POP server. > > Cyrus uses a different mail storage format to anything else and sequesters > all your mail. > > For users who aren't in the /etc/passwd file use LDAP, give all users the > same UID and with /dev/null as the shell (so they can't login). > > Use the NSS modules for LDAP. > > >hint, for performance you probably want to look at a machine with > >multiple fast scsci drives for the mail spool (raid striping), formatted > >with reiserfs. and lots of memory, of course. CPU speed isn't a big > >issue - mail systems are I/O bound. > > Last year I was working on an AIX machine (AIX is slow) that had old 2G and > 4G SSA drives (drive performance was less than my Thinkpad in every test). > The AIX machine ran 27000 mail accounts, an Oracle server, and some shell > accounts. After I had finished with it performance was quite OK. > > It really depends on the type of access the machine will get. 27000 > university students don't produce much load (especially when most of them are > arts students who only check mail once a week). 1000 people on a corporate > network sending emails with Word and Excel documents attached will produce > 1000 times the load. > > When mail is being delivered and immidiately downloaded via POP (no mail left > on server) my Thinkpad 600E (10G IDE hard drive, Celeron 400) can do 20G of > email traffic a day. An ISP with >50 users I know of has about 15G of > email a day. > > For best performance have no direct TCP connections between your mail server > and the outside world. Have the MX records point to an inbound-relay which > sends the mail to the real server. Have the clients SMTP relay address point > to a machine that's configured to just be an outbound relay. Have your > server setup with ipchains or TCP wrappers to deny SMTP connections from > machines other than the inbound relay. > When mail comes from the Internet it generally comes in slowly, and in > spurts. This hurts the caching on the queue partition. Have the mail come > in from the inbound relay (or relays, you'll need several for a big system) > in only a small number of TCP connections. That way data will generally > never be read from the queue partition (it'll be in the cache). > > Have seperate physical media for the queue file system. All writes of email > data are synchronous. Writing the queue data generally involves creating 2 > or 3 queue files synchronously and one mail-store file (for maildir). This > can make the queue a performance bottleneck for the mail system. Have a > seperate pair of hard drives in RAID-1 setup for the queue and you'll save > disk bandw
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
> > For best performance have no direct TCP connections between your mail server > and the outside world. Have the MX records point to an inbound-relay which > sends the mail to the real server. hello :-) i pretty much dont get this part. what should be done is to point the MX record to another mail server ? what also confused me is, how does that server send the mail to the "real server" ? errr, did i ask the right question ? cheers, Chad
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Fri, 12 May 2000, Craig Sanders wrote: >On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:10:40PM +0800, Chad A. Adlawan wrote: >> does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build >> a mail server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more >> than 65,000 users ? i.e., what are the available methods (and >> what are the best ones) of having mail users w/o having them on >> /etc/passwd. > >i'd suggest postfix + cyrus. from comments in the postfix-users list, it >seems to be a nearly ideal combination for doing what you want. I'd suggest Postfix + the Qmail POP server. Postfix (and Postfix-tls) are in Debian. There's a package of the Qmail source which allows you to compile your own Qmail POP server. Cyrus uses a different mail storage format to anything else and sequesters all your mail. For users who aren't in the /etc/passwd file use LDAP, give all users the same UID and with /dev/null as the shell (so they can't login). Use the NSS modules for LDAP. >hint, for performance you probably want to look at a machine with >multiple fast scsci drives for the mail spool (raid striping), formatted >with reiserfs. and lots of memory, of course. CPU speed isn't a big >issue - mail systems are I/O bound. Last year I was working on an AIX machine (AIX is slow) that had old 2G and 4G SSA drives (drive performance was less than my Thinkpad in every test). The AIX machine ran 27000 mail accounts, an Oracle server, and some shell accounts. After I had finished with it performance was quite OK. It really depends on the type of access the machine will get. 27000 university students don't produce much load (especially when most of them are arts students who only check mail once a week). 1000 people on a corporate network sending emails with Word and Excel documents attached will produce 1000 times the load. When mail is being delivered and immidiately downloaded via POP (no mail left on server) my Thinkpad 600E (10G IDE hard drive, Celeron 400) can do 20G of email traffic a day. An ISP with >50 users I know of has about 15G of email a day. For best performance have no direct TCP connections between your mail server and the outside world. Have the MX records point to an inbound-relay which sends the mail to the real server. Have the clients SMTP relay address point to a machine that's configured to just be an outbound relay. Have your server setup with ipchains or TCP wrappers to deny SMTP connections from machines other than the inbound relay. When mail comes from the Internet it generally comes in slowly, and in spurts. This hurts the caching on the queue partition. Have the mail come in from the inbound relay (or relays, you'll need several for a big system) in only a small number of TCP connections. That way data will generally never be read from the queue partition (it'll be in the cache). Have seperate physical media for the queue file system. All writes of email data are synchronous. Writing the queue data generally involves creating 2 or 3 queue files synchronously and one mail-store file (for maildir). This can make the queue a performance bottleneck for the mail system. Have a seperate pair of hard drives in RAID-1 setup for the queue and you'll save disk bandwidth for where you want it. Run bonnie++ (it's a Debian package) with the "-b" option to see how synchronous writes slow things down (you'll probably be surprised). Run zcav (part of the bonnie++ suite) on your hard drives to make sure that you only use the best performing parts in your RAID arrays. Run Postal (it's a Debian package) to test the overall performance of your mail delivery system, but note that it doesn't test the affects of slow transfers - it tests what you'll get when you have inbound and outbound relays. It's a Debian package, but the latest version is on Sourceforge and on http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ (the version in Debian is old). I think that a machine with 512M of RAM, Postfix, Qmail-POP, and two of the IBM 34G IDE hard drives in RAID-1 configuration running ReiserFS will provide all the performance you need (unless you've got the office email system with Word documents being mailed around). Test it out with Postal, if that hardware isn't enough then try two RAID-1 sets, one for queue and logs, the other for the mail data. Russell Coker PS I am the author of Postal and the primary author of the Bonnie++ suite. -- My current location - X marks the spot. X X X
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 04:10:40PM +0800, Chad A. Adlawan wrote: > does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build > a mail server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more > than 65,000 users ? i.e., what are the available methods (and > what are the best ones) of having mail users w/o having them on > /etc/passwd. i'd suggest postfix + cyrus. from comments in the postfix-users list, it seems to be a nearly ideal combination for doing what you want. both are packaged for debian. postfix is at http://www.postfix.org/ URL for cyrus should be in the package's documentation. i haven't used cyrus, but i'm a big fan of postfix - wouldn't use anything else these days, and i've tried all of the available MTAs over the last 5 or 6 years. hint, for performance you probably want to look at a machine with multiple fast scsci drives for the mail spool (raid striping), formatted with reiserfs. and lots of memory, of course. CPU speed isn't a big issue - mail systems are I/O bound. craig -- craig sanders
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
"Chad A. Adlawan" wrote: > i have this feeling that this has been asked b4 already but i cant locate > it in the archives. anyway : > > does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build a mail > server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more than 65,000 users ? > i.e., what are the available methods (and what are the best ones) of having > mail users w/o having them on /etc/passwd. > > thanks in advance, > chad I think you need cyrus (?) as local delivery agent/pop server. Cross post your query to: news:comp.mail.sendmail and news:comp.mail.imap -- Andrzej (Andrew) A. Filip http://bigfoot.com/~anfi [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Postings: http://deja.com/profile.xp?author=Andrzej%20Filip
Re: mail server w/ 65000++ users
Hi, perhaps have a look at qmail-ldap. You can manage all your users including quota and all that in your ldap directory and everything runs with a single UID. And you can run a cluster of POP-3 machines. BTW: gmx.net is running on qmail and they have 500k+ users. Torsten On Fri, 12 May 2000, Chad A. Adlawan wrote: > hello everyone, > > i have this feeling that this has been asked b4 already but i cant locate > it in the archives. anyway : > > does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build a mail > server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more than 65,000 users ? > i.e., what are the available methods (and what are the best ones) of having > mail users w/o having them on /etc/passwd. > > thanks in advance, > chad > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Media Online Internet Services & Marketing GmbH Torsten Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] fon: 49-231-5575100fax: 49-231-55751098 Ruhrallee 39 D-44137 Dortmund
mail server w/ 65000++ users
hello everyone, i have this feeling that this has been asked b4 already but i cant locate it in the archives. anyway : does anybody have any URL's or docs w/ talks on how to build a mail server (both Exim and Sendmail are OK w/ me) with more than 65,000 users ? i.e., what are the available methods (and what are the best ones) of having mail users w/o having them on /etc/passwd. thanks in advance, chad
