Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 11:10 PM, Jeff Waugh at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-)
> 
> http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt
> 
> You can do almost all of this with the vFolder spec, and the best thing is
> that you will have to do very little work to it them working in GNOME and
> KDE because they will both support the spec. So whatever the .desktop files
> that Debian packages install say, GNOME and KDE will do.
> 

Good tip Jeff,

I had already initiated contact with the freedesktop.org folks about
standards, but not directly relating to what you proposed.  I'll dig into
that spec though, just to get myself fully aware.

Meanwhile, I assume that Chris Lawrence's menu rewrite will be fully VFolder
compliant. 

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 10:42 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I am not quite sure what you mean.  I don't think the whole menu
>> structure is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure
>> which piddling detail you mean.  Please clarify a bit so that I can
>> understand and then address your concern properly.
> 
> The message to which I originally responded said:
> 
> Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> 
> It's this sort of menus which I don't like.
> 
It would be a bit clunky from an elegant UI point of view - yes.

> It's probably the case that presenting every single installed application
> in the menus would confuse and annoy some people, so debian menus should
> probably allow filtering what is presented.
> 
> One filtering criteria could be:
> 
> `If there are several apps of type X installed, and one of them is a
> "native" application for the currently running windowing environment
> (e.g. Gnome or KDE), then only present that one, and hide the others'
> 
> [and hopefully the list of criteria would be stored in a file somewhere,
> so that I could change it to suit my personal preferences!]
> 
OK, now I understand what you mean.  By and large, we are in complete
agreement I think.  GTK apps show up in the Gnome menu, while QT apps show
up in the KDE menu, unless the user changes a menu setting, say from "Basic
Menu" to "Advanced Menu", to show both kinds of apps under either menu.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things so we could understand each
other properly.


> I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the `current
> environment', but I think the difference between the menus displayed when
> using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE desktop should
> be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps showing up in certain
> places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu structure.
> 
Absolutely.  I agree with this.  Same menu structure regardless of desktop
environment or window manager, just different actual choices under "Web
Browser" suitable to the respective environment/desktop.

> In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with
> appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ using
> the default Gnome/KDE menu structures).
> 
Yup.  

See, we are all happy now singing in lovely two part harmony ;-)

Cheers
Luke Seubert

[desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]

[Jeff Waugh]

> I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the
> `current environment', but I think the difference between the menus
> displayed when using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE
> desktop should be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps
> showing up in certain places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu
> structure.
> 
> In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with
> appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_
> using the default Gnome/KDE menu structures).

Hey,

I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-)

  http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt

You can do almost all of this with the vFolder spec, and the best thing is
that you will have to do very little work to it them working in GNOME and
KDE because they will both support the spec. So whatever the .desktop files
that Debian packages install say, GNOME and KDE will do.

If anything, you guys should be contributing to the spec, to make sure that
it works properly for Debian. Then it will truly kick arse for both the
desktops *and* distributions.

Thanks,

- Jeff

-- 
   "Everyone says they like Free Software - not everyone is ready to make   
 the tough choices to make it happen." - Maciej Stachowiak  

Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 10:26 PM, Tim Wheeler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
> [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:18 pm, Luke Seubert wrote: ]
>> Good point.  This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then,
>> with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps
>> showing up when one is in the KDE desktop.  Few newbie type users are
>> likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with
>> this in mind.  Do I understand this correctly as your position?
> 
> i disagree.  how about kmail and gaim?  these are good and popular
> applications.  i don't think i'm alone in using them.  what about kde and the
> gimp?  these are just the obvious examples that come to mind.
> 

Well, for a user like you, who obviously already knows his way around Linux
desktop apps, I think the "Advanced Menu" option would be the way to go.
This would be a menu somewhat like the present Debian menu, offering the
full array of options, but at the expense of complexity.

But for the newbie Linux user, the goal of Debian Desktop is to present a
really simple, elegant, and ready to go right out of the box GUI with just
the basics, and as little complexity as possible.

Please bear in mind, Desktop Debian does not seek to screw up and
"stupidify" Debian for the technically savvy Debian user.  Such users will
always be able to opt OUT of the Debian Desktop paradigm either during
install, or later having tried DeDe and deciding to ditch it.  We just want
to present a good Desktop for the newbie user, but leave said desktop
strictly optional for the old bulls :-)

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Miles Bader]

Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has
> > to choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should
> > make an `environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome,
> > Joe's Wackyterm for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the
> > _whole menu structure_ around such a piddling little detail.
> 
> I am not quite sure what you mean.  I don't think the whole menu
> structure is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure
> which piddling detail you mean.  Please clarify a bit so that I can
> understand and then address your concern properly.

The message to which I originally responded said:

   Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
   > personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
   > in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
   > problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.

It's this sort of menus which I don't like.

It's probably the case that presenting every single installed application
in the menus would confuse and annoy some people, so debian menus should
probably allow filtering what is presented.

One filtering criteria could be:

   `If there are several apps of type X installed, and one of them is a
"native" application for the currently running windowing environment
(e.g. Gnome or KDE), then only present that one, and hide the others'

[and hopefully the list of criteria would be stored in a file somewhere,
so that I could change it to suit my personal preferences!]

> > [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system
> > will only have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps
> > installed, not both.]
>
> Good point.  This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then,
> with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps
> showing up when one is in the KDE desktop.  Few newbie type users are
> likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed
> with this in mind.  Do I understand this correctly as your position?

I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the `current
environment', but I think the difference between the menus displayed when
using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE desktop should
be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps showing up in certain
places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu structure.

In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with
appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ using
the default Gnome/KDE menu structures).

-Miles
-- 
`The suburb is an obsolete and contradictory form of human settlement'

Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Tim Wheeler]

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> [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:18 pm, Luke Seubert wrote: ]
> On 10/24/2002 7:26 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will
> > only have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed,
> > not both.]
>
> Good point.  This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then,
> with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps
> showing up when one is in the KDE desktop.  Few newbie type users are
> likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with
> this in mind.  Do I understand this correctly as your position?

i disagree.  how about kmail and gaim?  these are good and popular 
applications.  i don't think i'm alone in using them.  what about kde and the 
gimp?  these are just the obvious examples that come to mind.

sincerely,

tim

- -- 
Tim Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.greengibberish.com/
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Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 7:26 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote:
>> However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care.  KDE apps
>> designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment.  Apps run
>> better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded.
>> 
>> So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works",
>> without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice
>> and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about
>> these issues.
> 
> Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has to
> choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should make an
> `environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome, Joe's Wackyterm
> for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the _whole menu structure_
> around such a piddling little detail.
> 
I am not quite sure what you mean.  I don't think the whole menu structure
is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure which
piddling detail you mean.  Please clarify a bit so that I can understand and
then address your concern properly.

> [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will only
> have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed, not both.]
> 
Good point.  This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then,
with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps
showing up when one is in the KDE desktop.  Few newbie type users are likely
to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with this in
mind.  Do I understand this correctly as your position?

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 7:20 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Why just make one decision when you can make two, though ?  And
> isn't it All About Choice[tm] anyway ? ;-)
> 
Yeah, except that too much choice is rough too.  Does anyone here believe
that Debian's current menu structure, deeply nested with beaucoup items
because it seeks to make available ALL apps is simple, elegant, and easy to
use for Linux newbies?

Simple ease of use often conflicts with lots of choices and flexibility and
power.  To achieve the one, you must sacrifice the other.


> Seriously, I would actually like it if there were some commonality of
> grouping in the menu structure between different distros, so that I don't
> have to hunt through the menus to find things, every time I swap between
> the wife's Mandrake system and my Debian one.  If that were possible,
> perhaps also under the aegis of freedesktop.org, I wouldn't mind half
> as much having to search an extra folder in each category !
> 

Heh. After reading all the hullaballoo we have generated so far in debating
just an OPTIONAL Debian menu structure, can you imagine the flamefests and
debate over a unified Linux menu structure across all distros?  Whew!  It
would be enough to burn down every building in Chicago I betcha ;-)

Seriously though, by the time Debian Desktop accomplishes its goals, maybe
your wife will be very happy to switch to slick and easy to use, and much
more stable, Debian Desktop! ;-)

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 6:29 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself.  But why
> not make it an Option[tm] ?  Have a configurable bit in the menu program
> called "Flatten Debian" or something, which will fold any "/Debian"
> menu into the level above it.
> 

Hmm, that might be doable.  It does add more complexity for the folks
working on the backend of all this stuff.  And it adds another slightly
complicated question during install time possibily - "Attention User - Do
you want both Gnome and KDE apps showing up in your Menu?"  While this
question would be meant to help the clueless newbie achieve a simpler GUI
after install, the question could be horribly confusing and nonsensical for
said newbie.

Is there a good alternative way to accomplish your suggestion that I am too
tired to think of right now?

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Daniel Stone]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert scrawled:
> On 10/24/2002 12:59 AM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> >> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> >> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> >> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> > 
> > It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> > I don't think most users really care.
> > 
> 
> Correct.  Most users coming over from Mac or Windows don't care about the
> whole QT versus GTK library and toolset issue.
> 
> However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care.  KDE apps
> are designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment.  Apps run
> better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded.  Same
> applies to Gnome and GTK apps.

Also for consistency. If someone configures a proxy in the KDE Control
Centre, this change will propagate to all KDE apps, but not stuff like
ImageMajick (you can open a http:// URL in KWord, for instance). Also,
colour configs, etc, can be preserved across applications.

-- 
Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Developer, Trinity College, University of Melbourne


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Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Miles Bader]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote:
> However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care.  KDE apps
> designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment.  Apps run
> better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded.
>
> So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works",
> without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice
> and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about
> these issues.

Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has to
choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should make an
`environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome, Joe's Wackyterm
for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the _whole menu structure_
around such a piddling little detail.

[I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will only
have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed, not both.]

-Miles
-- 
P.S.  All information contained in the above letter is false,
  for reasons of military security.

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Nick Leverton]

On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 08:52:39AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> 
> 
> > I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself.  But why
> > not make it an Option[tm] ?
> 
> *smack*

Sorry Mr. Fawlty !

> > Have a configurable bit in the menu program called "Flatten Debian" or
> > something, which will fold any "/Debian" menu into the level above it.
> 
> Do not make user preferences as an escape from actually making a decision.

Why just make one decision when you can make two, though ?  And
isn't it All About Choice[tm] anyway ? ;-)

> Surely working with the freedesktop.org vFolder standard and providing menus
> for non desktop-affiliated software by default is infinitely more useful to
> your users than yet another option (especially one that sounds so violent;
> no, I do not wish to flatten my OS, thank you).
> 
> :-)

Seriously, I would actually like it if there were some commonality of
grouping in the menu structure between different distros, so that I don't
have to hunt through the menus to find things, every time I swap between
the wife's Mandrake system and my Debian one.  If that were possible,
perhaps also under the aegis of freedesktop.org, I wouldn't mind half
as much having to search an extra folder in each category !

Nick ;-)

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Jeff Waugh]

> I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself.  But why
> not make it an Option[tm] ?

*smack*

> Have a configurable bit in the menu program called "Flatten Debian" or
> something, which will fold any "/Debian" menu into the level above it.

Do not make user preferences as an escape from actually making a decision.

Surely working with the freedesktop.org vFolder standard and providing menus
for non desktop-affiliated software by default is infinitely more useful to
your users than yet another option (especially one that sounds so violent;
no, I do not wish to flatten my OS, thank you).

:-)

- Jeff

-- 
  Is Murphy's Law constitutional?   

[desktop] Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 10:22 AM, Tim Wheeler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support, it
> is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find tasks.  i
> don't like that some items are buried under debian folders.  i don't want a
> kde system or a gnome system.  i want a gnu/linux desktop.  a beauty of
> opensource is that products can work together (there's no hidden api's)--at
> least when political agendas don't get in the way.
> 
Well, Debian Desktop does seek to present a really elegant and simple menu
hierarchy.  As for mixing QT and GTK apps within a single menu, well, that
is being debated.  I tend to favor segregation for now.

> the free/free software movement has a healthy dislike of bad decisions made
> because of money, but shows inconsistency in its silence about bad decisions
> made because of politics (and i'm not talking about issues of freedom).
> 
> if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at
> least in debian.
> 
Agreed.  Within the free software movement, decsions should not be made on
the basis of politics.

My hope is that good technical arguments will emerge that strongly support
various decisions taken, and that we can avoid as much politics as possible.

Heh.  Am I sadly naive or what? ;-)

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

[desktop] Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 10:21 AM, Matthew Garrett at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> I'm not convinced. Different toolkits behave differently. A naive user
> shouldn't have to understand why their KDE-based mail client behaves
> slightly differently to their Gnome-based news client. I dislike using
> non-GTK applications, and I'm willing to accept a slight reduction in
> functionality to achieve this.
> 
Good point.  This is another good technical reason to segregate Gnome and
KDE and have a menu linking to different apps based upon which
toolset/libraries are loaded, i.e. which desktop environment the user is
using.

Now, that said, it would be nice if Debian Desktop developed a set Debian
branded themes across all the major GUIs that had common color pallettes,
icons, wallpaper, themes, etc.  I do not mean making KDE and Gnome look
exactly alike - just similar Debian oriented themes.  Those special
qualities that make KDE and Gnome special unto themselves should be there to
shine through :-)

And down the road, I would like to do some serious reasearch into User
Interface best practices, and tweak the configuration settings for KDE,
Gnome, et al so that they behave in a manner consisten with best UI
practice. But there are other things more urgent that need work for now.

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Nick Leverton]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 06:16:26PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote:
> On 10/24/2002 7:59 AM, Josip Rodin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is
> > to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.
> > 
> Agreed.  The end goal is to have something that Just Works and is reasonably
> easy for the newbie.
> 
> However, as I stated elsewhere on this thread, there are some good technical
> reasons to segregate by toolset.  This is still a topic of debate and
> discussion though, and I don't think it is settled.

I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself.  But why
not make it an Option[tm] ?  Have a configurable bit in the menu program
called "Flatten Debian" or something, which will fold any "/Debian"
menu into the level above it.

Nick

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 7:59 AM, Josip Rodin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
>> I don't think most users really care.
> 
> I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is
> to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.
> 
Agreed.  The end goal is to have something that Just Works and is reasonably
easy for the newbie.

However, as I stated elsewhere on this thread, there are some good technical
reasons to segregate by toolset.  This is still a topic of debate and
discussion though, and I don't think it is settled.

> (Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other
> applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three
> separate menus, some of which empty.)
>
Hmm, now here is an interesting conundrum.

Upon installation, the user selects "Desktop" for an installation package.
Does this mean that ONLY those KDE or Gnome apps that will appear in the
menu hierarchy are installed?  Or will the full range of KDE and Gnome apps
be installed, but only the best of breed show up in the menu hierarchy for
the "Basic Menu" layout?

To deal directly with the point you raised though, if the user does NOT
install, say, KDE - then s/he would not have a KDE oriented menu installed
with no apps in it - just a pure Gnome menu, or whatever.  I would hope that
the installer and Desktop config system would be at least that minimally
intelligent.

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Ralf Nolden]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 24 October 2002 14:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml
>
> The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can
> someone try replicating this?
>
> I'm using a version of Konqueror that's not from the Debian repository so I
> haven't filed a Debian bug report...
>
Works fine for me on woody + KDE CVS from last week.

Ralf

> --
> http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
> http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
> http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
> http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

- -- 
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
- 
Ralf Nolden
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The K Desktop Environment   The KDevelop Project
http://www.kde.org  http://www.kdevelop.org
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Re: kde 3.0.3

[Ralf Nolden]

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On Thursday 24 October 2002 10:28, Martin Lang wrote:

According to the error I'd say you have mixed KDE 2 and KDE 3. You have to 
completely uninstall KDE 2.x before installing KDE 3. Otherwise applications 
will crash or not load - can't help if you messed with your XF86Config-4 
though in addition.

Ralf

> i have also installed xfce and xfce runs without any
> problems so i think my XF86Config is ok.
> i configured my xf86config with debconf
> and debconf put two mouse devices in the
> config! but if i del one of the mouse section
> then the x-server doesn't start, he tell me
> anything about "no screens found".
>
> Arash Bijanzadeh schrieb:
> >I think you mixx configured your mouse. Have you changed your XF86config
> > after ugrading?
> >Try loading just X without any windowmanager
> >
> >>Hello list,
> >>im install debian on my notebook (woody 3.0)
> >>and now i set up kde 3.0.3.
> >>my xserver runs, kde 2 ran.
> >>but kde3 crash if i start it!
> >>here are the output from the xserver:
> >>
> >>--8<---
> >>
> >>(EE) Generic Mouse: cannot open input device
> >>(EE) PreInit failed for input device "Generic Mouse"
> >>(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Configured Mouse" (type:
> >> MOUSE) KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> >>KCrash: Application Name = ksplash path =  pid = 2575
> >>DCOPServer up and running.
> >>KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> >>KCrash: Application Name = kded path =  pid = 2586
> >>DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2585' to 'kded'
> >>ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
> >>KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> >>KCrash: Application Name = kcminit path =  pid = 2589
> >>KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> >>KCrash: Application Name = knotify path =  pid = 2592
> >>DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2591' to 'knotify'
> >>ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
> >>KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> >>KCrash: Application Name = ksmserver path =  pid = 2596
> >>kdeinit: Fatal IO error: client killed
> >>kdeinit: sending SIGHUP to children.
> >>KLauncher: Exiting on signal 1
> >>
> >>waiting for X server to shut down .kdeinit: sending SIGTERM to children.
> >>kdeinit: Exit.
> >>.
> >>-8<
> >>
> >>thanks for help
> >>
> >>bye
> >
> >--
> >To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> Thiesen | Martin Lang
> hardware- & software- design GmbH | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> im Tiegel 9 | www.thiesen.com
> 36367 Wartenberg | tel. +49 (0) 6641 979-142 fax -299

- -- 
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
- 
Ralf Nolden
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The K Desktop Environment   The KDevelop Project
http://www.kde.org  http://www.kdevelop.org
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Re: Broken KDE3; "fcntl: bad file descriptor"

[Karolina Lindqvist]

torsdagen den 24 oktober 2002 22.34 skrev Adam Kessel:

> kio (KSycoca): WARNING: Found version 49, expecting version 59 or higher.

When this comes, you might have a KDE that is either missing important parts, 
or is a mixture of different versions.
dpkg -l | grep kde
Often gives a hint if KDE with different versions are installed.
I was going through a lot of pain to try to make such things impossible with 
my latest KDE3.1-beta2 version (which does not mean I was completely 
successful), but with my previous versions, with other versions and with the 
"official" version that is possible.

> And so forth. Can somehow suggest how I might return my KDE packages to a
> useable state, absent returning to KDE2? 

Avoid mixing of KDE versions. If apt is completely stuck, remove all KDE 
packages with dpkg. and install one of the versions. When I get stuck like 
this, I often do a "dpkg -l" and grep on something in the version like 
"3.0.8" or something,  to see if all versions are the same. (Unfortunately 
dpkg truncates the names and the versions, and I don't know how to make it 
show the whole name. Oh well, life is not always easy)

> My sources.list include:
Change it to include one one KDE version.
Note that applications have to be built to be compatible with that version.

-- Karolina

Re: Documentation kde for debian

[Ralf Nolden]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 24 October 2002 21:55, samuel desseaux wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I'm a young french developer and user of debian (linux is my great
> passion). I'd like to take part in your project and begin with easy things.
> I'd like to work on the rewriting of the kde  documentation. Is it
> possible? If yes, give me some advices.

Hi Samuel,

thanks for your offer. I would like to bring you in contact with Lauri Watts 
who is the Documentation coordinator at KDE. Please refer to 
developer.kde.org documentation about how to write KDE docs :-)

Welcome and again, thanks for your offer to help.

Ralf
>
> Thank you
>
> Sincerely
>
> Samuel
> --
> Samuel Desseaux
> 01j, square des ormes
> 59510 Hem
> tél:03.20.80.12.62
> mobile:06.80.96.67.27

- -- 
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
- 
Ralf Nolden
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The K Desktop Environment   The KDevelop Project
http://www.kde.org  http://www.kdevelop.org
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Re: kde31beta questions...

[Karolina Lindqvist]

torsdagen den 24 oktober 2002 20.05 skrev Corey Kovacs:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I've been using the kde31beta packages for a while now and most things are
> going well. I've got a couple of questions though...
>
> 1: What package are the konquerer plugins contained (ie archive web page
> etc.)

The ones I have in my kde31beta2 packages are:
konqueror-nsplugins  - to be able to use "netscape" compatible plugins
arts-audiofile-plugin - 
arts-mpeglib-plugin - mp3 and mpeg using built-in decoder(alternative)
arts-xine-plugin - various video formats, .vob, .mpg, .mpeg, .m1v, .m2v, .m1s, 
.m2s, .m2p, .avi, .asf, .asx, .wmv, .qt, .mov, .moo

The "file" plugins for file types:
kfile-rfc822-plugin - rfc822 mail files
kfile-admin-plugin - .deb .rpm
kfile-audio-plugin - .au .avi .m3u ..mp3 .ogg .wav
kfile-graphics-plugin - .pdf .png .ps .jpeg .xbm  .bmp .tga  .ico .tiff
kfile-pim-plugin - .vcf
kfile-sdk-plugin - .cpp .diff
kaddressbook-sdk-plugin - address book

Note that the packet names are different from those in the coming "official" 
version of KDE. I changed the names to be consistent and so you know what 
package is enhanced and some clue on how it is enhanced.


> 2: When I try to install koffice, it's telling me that it needs
> kdelibs4

Ok, that's a problem in the packaging. I am fixing it and uploading new 
packages tonight (tomorrow)
The old (unfixed) packages can be installed with the following convulted 
command: (without linebreaks)
sudo apt-get  install koffice=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 
koffice-libs=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 kchart=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 
kformula=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 kontour=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 
kivio=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 koshell=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 
kpresenter=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 kspread=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 
kugar=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9 kword=1:1.2-zcvs20020930-2.9

-- Karolina

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 1:35 AM, Joey Hess at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Well I cannot speak about KDE from direct experience, but I can tell you
> that for gnome, having to explain to a nontechnical user[0] who doesn't
> even know what gnome is (except for that splash screen that comes up
> when she logs in) why some things are on this set of menus, and some
> other, seemingly pretty similar sort of things[1] are all the way over
> here, in this other set of menus, can be is pretty frustrating and
> embarrassing[2].
> 
Hopefully Debian Desktop will be able to simplify the menu hierarchy and UI
so that all this becomes less confusing.

Joey, I have tossed my hat in the ring as a volunteer to help design the
menu layout for Desktop Debian.  You mentioned in a postscript in your email
that you worked on the original menu hierarchy.  May I call upon your wisdom
and experience and feedback when I go to help out with the DD menu design?

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Luke Seubert]

On 10/24/2002 12:59 AM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> 
> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> I don't think most users really care.
> 

Correct.  Most users coming over from Mac or Windows don't care about the
whole QT versus GTK library and toolset issue.

However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care.  KDE apps
are designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment.  Apps run
better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded.  Same
applies to Gnome and GTK apps.

So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works",
without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice
and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about
these issues.

Cheers,
Luke Seubert

making realplayer work with konqueror in kde 3.0.4

[TP Muller]

Hi list,

I've googled for this and searched the list, but couldn't find anything (only 
about plugins, but that's not what I need), so I'm asking here:

I'm running KDE 3.0.4 on a debian testing system.

I would like konqueror to open a link to a realplayer file in realplayer, but 
I just can't get konqueror to do this. It works if I choose 'open with...' 
and then select realplay as application, but I don't want to do that each and 
every time I want to see a clip :-/

Here's the site I'm browsing: http://www.tagesschau.de

If I click on the video symbol, a new konqueror window with the URL 
http://server/bla/file.ram is opened, which then fails with a pop-up message 
saying 'could not create view for audio/x-pn-realaudio. The diagnostics is:' 
(no error msg there).

I've tried editing the file associations stuff, but without success.

I'd be grateful about any hints.

Many thanks in advance.
Cheers
-Tim

Broken KDE3; "fcntl: bad file descriptor"

[Adam Kessel]

I've had a nearly completely broken KDE3/3.1 installation under sid for
several weeks now and have been unsuccesful at diagnosing or fixing the
problem(s). This may be related to the problem reported here

about file associations.  

Most of the KDE applications crash when run. e.g., kate gives:

~>kate
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
kio (KSycoca): WARNING: Found version 49, expecting version 59 or higher.
kio (KSycoca): WARNING: Outdated database found
kio (KMimeType): WARNING: KServiceType::offers : servicetype Kate/Plugin
not found
KCrash: Application 'kate' crashing...
ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor
fcntl: Bad file descriptor

kghostview will run, but then gives an error when opening PDFs; unknown
mime-type application/octet-stream and then no mime types installed.

And so forth. Can somehow suggest how I might return my KDE packages to a
useable state, absent returning to KDE2? My sources.list include:

deb http://download.us.kde.org/pub/kde/stable/3.0.3/Debian ./ # KDE 3.0.4 (sid)
deb http://people.debian.org/~schoepf/kde3/woody ./ # Unofficial KDE 3.0.3 for 
Woody (Koffice 1.2rc-1)
deb http://people.debian.org/~msp ./  # kmerlin & kpovmodeler
deb http://www.inetontario.com/~tcharron/keramik/ ./  # keramik
deb http://www.opensides.be/debian/woody/kde3/ ./  # Quanta, KCD, kcpuload, 
kdeb, knetload, kopete, kpovmodeler, kprof, kdevelop
deb http://people.debian.org/~pfrauenf/ ./  # Valgrind, KCacheGrind 
deb http://lesbos.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~mleeman/debian/ unstable/ # 3.0.3 
packages
deb http://kde.ping.uio.no/i386 ./
deb http://people.debian.org/~bab/kde3 ./
deb http://people.debian.org/~njordan kde3.0/

Thanks for any advice!
---
Adam Kessel ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Jarno Elonen]

> i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support,
> it is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find
> tasks.  i don't like that some items are buried under debian folders.

I wholeheartedly agree. The 'Debian' sub directories have often left me 
wondering if I ever actually install some piece of software. Separating Gnome 
and KDE applications would make the situation even more confusing.

(Don't get me wrong, though. It's really nice that all the apps *are* there. 
If only KDE apps appeared in K-menu, it would be much worse than the current 
way of having the Debian dirs.)

The only case were subfoldering by UI flavor *could* be useful, IMHO, is GUI 
vs. console applications. For example, hardly anyone wants to run tkwish or 
even joe from the menu. I could be wrong of course, and don't think 
separating menus even that way would be absolutely necessary.

A nice solution could be to let the user decide according to which criteria 
the system should order the folders (and of course let them *easily* reorder 
them, but that's not really a Debian issue). Unfortunately, I guess it would 
require more metadata than is currently available from the packages?

> if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at
> least in debian.

I sign your plea.

- Jarno

Re: Ruminations on package locations

[Malte Cornils]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 10:09:08AM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> Only problem is that experimental, as Ben said, contains a whole bunch
> of other stuff. A lot of users want to use KDE3, and it's not that
> experimental. They don't want to drag other stuff in.

Note that experimental has a (hardcoded) lower default priority than sid.
See the manpage of apt_preferences. So, this would not happen. Which IMHO
was the only argument *against* experimental. 

I wasn't able to find where experimental is "documented" on www.debian.org,
so it's no wonder people don't know how it works.

-Malte #8-)

Documentation kde for debian

[samuel desseaux]

Hello!

I'm a young french developer and user of debian (linux is my great passion). 
I'd like to take part in your project and begin with easy things. I'd like to 
work on the rewriting of the kde  documentation. Is it possible? If yes, give 
me some advices.

Thank you

Sincerely

Samuel
-- 
Samuel Desseaux
01j, square des ormes
59510 Hem
tél:03.20.80.12.62
mobile:06.80.96.67.27

kde31beta questions...

[Corey Kovacs]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I've been using the kde31beta packages for a while now and most things are 
going well. I've got a couple of questions though...

1: What package are the konquerer plugins contained (ie archive web page etc.)
2: When I try to install koffice, it's telling me that it needs kdelibs4

  koffice: Depends: koffice-libs but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: karbon but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kchart but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kformula but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kontour but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kivio but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: koshell but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kpresenter but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kspread but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kugar but it is not going to be installed
   Depends: kword but it is not going to be installed

  koffice-libs: Depends: kdelibs4 (>= 4:3.0.3)

I'm using http://shakti.ath.cx/debian/kde3.1-beta2/ as my apt source

anyone???


- -- 
Corey Kovacs   "What we need is a recursive DMCA...
Computer ScienceSo it will be illegal to explain to someone ...
DePauw University.why it's illegal to explain to someone ...
765.658.4761   why it's illegal to ..."
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Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Karolina Lindqvist]

torsdagen den 24 oktober 2002 14.42 skrev Russell Coker:
>  I would prefer to go to an official Debian packaging of KDE 3.1 if
> possible.  Among other things official packages will support apt-get source
> so I can easily find the source for applying my patch.

Sure, I would prefer that too, but the "official" version is slow to come.  
The "official" KDE for debian is still 2.2.

-- Karolina

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Joey Hess]

Daniel Stone wrote:
> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.

Well I cannot speak about KDE from direct experience, but I can tell you
that for gnome, having to explain to a nontechnical user[0] who doesn't
even know what gnome is (except for that splash screen that comes up
when she logs in) why some things are on this set of menus, and some
other, seemingly pretty similar sort of things[1] are all the way over
here, in this other set of menus, can be is pretty frustrating and
embarrassing[2].

Putting the paraih apps in a submenu under the blessed gui consistent
appts[3] does seem like an improvement over how gome does it anyway.

-- 
see shy jo

[0] Relatively; upgrading from fvwm2..
[1] Many of them using GTK and so looking much like any other gnome app.
[2] Especially given that I was one of the main designers of the debian menu
heierarchy.
[3] I think that the general inconsistency of the web has made many users
notice minor gui inconsistencies less than we do, oddly.


pgpg0JkhHR2rJ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Tim Wheeler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 06:59 am, Josip Rodin wrote: ]
> (debian-gnome doesn't exist; adjusted to debian-gtk-gnome. I also don't
> read -kde or -gtk-gnome so please Cc: appropriately.)
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 01:59:17PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > > Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> > > personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> > > in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> > > problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> >
> > It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they
> > use. I don't think most users really care.
>
> I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want
> is to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.
>
> (Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other
> applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three
> separate menus, some of which empty.)

i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support, it 
is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find tasks.  i 
don't like that some items are buried under debian folders.  i don't want a 
kde system or a gnome system.  i want a gnu/linux desktop.  a beauty of 
opensource is that products can work together (there's no hidden api's)--at 
least when political agendas don't get in the way.

the free/free software movement has a healthy dislike of bad decisions made 
because of money, but shows inconsistency in its silence about bad decisions 
made because of politics (and i'm not talking about issues of freedom).

if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at 
least in debian.

sincerely,

tim


- -- 
Tim Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.greengibberish.com/
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Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Matthew Garrett]

In chiark.mail.debian.devel, you wrote:
>Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
>
>It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
>I don't think most users really care.

I'm not convinced. Different toolkits behave differently. A naive user
shouldn't have to understand why their KDE-based mail client behaves
slightly differently to their Gnome-based news client. I dislike using
non-GTK applications, and I'm willing to accept a slight reduction in
functionality to achieve this.

Back in my Amiga days, applications were released using three main
toolkits (the system widgets, MUI and Classact). The lack of coherent
look or behaviour between them led to people writing patches which
hacked the system widgets to look more like one of the others. There are
people out there who want consistency, and I think an average user is
more likely to fall into this class. My preference would be for the
default KDE menus to prefer KDE applications, the default Gnome menus to
prefer Gnome applications and other window managers not to care.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[José Manuel Pérez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

El Jue 24 Oct 2002 15:11, Paul Cupis escribió:
> On Thursday 24 October 2002 13:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> > www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml
> >
> > The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can
> > someone try replicating this?
>
> Works for me. I'm running testing/unstable with KDE3.0.3 debs from kde.org.
>
> ii  konqueror  3.0.3-1KDE's advanced File Manager, Web Browser
> and
>
>
> Paul Cupis

It also works for me, running unstable with KDE 3.0.4 from kde.org

ii  konqueror 3.0.4-1   KDE's advanced 
File Manager, Web Browser and Document Viewer

- -- 
- --+---
José Manuel Pérez Fuente  | Universidad del País Vasco
Punto Neutro EuskoNIX (UPV/EHU)   | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Plaza Elhuyar, 1 (Edif. Barriola) | Tel.:  +34 943 018 281
20018 San Sebastián (SPAIN)   | Fax.:  +34 943 219 306
- --+---

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Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Paul Cupis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 24 October 2002 13:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml
>
> The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can
> someone try replicating this?

Works for me. I'm running testing/unstable with KDE3.0.3 debs from kde.org.

ii  konqueror  3.0.3-1KDE's advanced File Manager, Web Browser and


Paul Cupis
- -- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:58, Michael Thaler wrote:
> > I have been hesitant to upgrade, going from KDE 2.2 to KDE 3.0 was
> > painful enough, I would prefer to go to an official Debian packaging of
> > KDE 3.1 if possible.  Among other things official packages will support
> > apt-get source so I can easily find the source for applying my patch.
>
> I would suggest that you simply compile KDE3.1beta2 yourself. It is really
> not that hard to compile, you can optimize it for your processor and it is
> easy to install it side by side with the official KDE2.2 from Woody,
> because it is going to /usr/local/kde anyway. You find compile instructions
> on the kde web site. If you have any questions, just ask. I need about half
> a day to compile most of the official stuff from kde3.1 (650 MHz PIII Sony
> Vaio Notebook).

If I was going to compile it myself I'd make Debian packages of it.  I know I 
can do this (at one time I was doing 99% of all Debian packaging of KDE).  
But at this time my interest in KDE is mostly as a user, I have enough 
development tasks to take up my time.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Michael Thaler]

On Thursday 24 October 2002 14:42, Russell Coker wrote:

> I've received another report of it working on KDE 3.1.  I'm using 3.0.4-1,
> so I guess anyone who has such a problem is best advised to just upgrade.
>
> I have been hesitant to upgrade, going from KDE 2.2 to KDE 3.0 was painful
> enough, I would prefer to go to an official Debian packaging of KDE 3.1 if
> possible.  Among other things official packages will support apt-get source
> so I can easily find the source for applying my patch.

I would suggest that you simply compile KDE3.1beta2 yourself. It is really not 
that hard to compile, you can optimize it for your processor and it is easy 
to install it side by side with the official KDE2.2 from Woody, because it is 
going to /usr/local/kde anyway. You find compile instructions on the kde web 
site. If you have any questions, just ask. I need about half a day to compile 
most of the official stuff from kde3.1 (650 MHz PIII Sony Vaio Notebook).

Greetings,
Michael

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:28, Michael Thaler wrote:
> On Thursday 24 October 2002 14:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> > www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml
> >
> > The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can
> > someone try replicating this?
> >
> > I'm using a version of Konqueror that's not from the Debian repository so
> > I haven't filed a Debian bug report...
>
> It works on my self compiled KDE3.1beta2. However, it needs a couple of
> seconds to be displayed and it causes very high CPU load for a couple of
> seconds.

I've received another report of it working on KDE 3.1.  I'm using 3.0.4-1, so 
I guess anyone who has such a problem is best advised to just upgrade.

I have been hesitant to upgrade, going from KDE 2.2 to KDE 3.0 was painful 
enough, I would prefer to go to an official Debian packaging of KDE 3.1 if 
possible.  Among other things official packages will support apt-get source 
so I can easily find the source for applying my patch.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Running stuff on login and logout

[Kjetil Kjernsmo]

On Sunday 20 October 2002 17:53, Kjetil Kjernsmo wrote:
> Hello list!

Hi again, and sorry to follow up on myself. I've been doing some 
digging, and I'm just wondering if people can look at some 
Debian-specific details. Besides, this might be interesting for others 
too.

> Log in seems easy enough, I guess that putting sfsagent in
> .xsession is the best choice, but where to run sfskey kill from when
> they log out, that's the real problem

A mechanism for running something at log out is discussed by James 
Richard Tyrer in 
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-linux&m=102117277212023&w=2

It is suggested that you make Xreset run a script in the user's home 
directory. I found an Xreset-script in /etc/kde3/kdm. Is this the 
script I should modify? It is mentioned in the above post that Xreset 
is not run by default, is it run in Debian?

If it is, then adding 
source $HOME/.xreset  
to /etc/kde3/kdm/Xreset should suffice, shouldn't it?
If it isn't, where should I call it from?


My next concern is that sfskey kill must be run as the user. The above 
script would be run as root as it is, wouldn't it? Would I have to do 
something like
su --command="source $HOME/.xreset" $USER
?

Should I first check if the file exists, or is that superfluous?

Is this perhaps something that should be included in the distro so that 
users may just add an .xreset?

Best,

Kjetil
-- 
Kjetil Kjernsmo
Astrophysicist/IT Consultant/Skeptic/Ski-orienteer/Orienteer/Mountaineer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.kjetil.kjernsmo.net/

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Jan Vidar Krey]

On Thursday 24 October 2002 14:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml

It works fine with Konq. 2.2.2 from Woody at least... :)

-- 
Best regards

Jan Vidar Krey
Unix admin

Open Human Digital AS (OHD)
Web: http://www.ohd.no/
Phone: (+47) 22 96 35 70
Mobile: (+47) 98 60 73 28
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Michael Thaler]

On Thursday 24 October 2002 14:09, Russell Coker wrote:
> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml
>
> The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can
> someone try replicating this?
>
> I'm using a version of Konqueror that's not from the Debian repository so I
> haven't filed a Debian bug report...

It works on my self compiled KDE3.1beta2. However, it needs a couple of 
seconds to be displayed and it causes very high CPU load for a couple of 
seconds.

Michael

Re: link that breaks konqueror

[Michael Koch]

Am Donnerstag, 24. Oktober 2002 14:09 schrieb Russell Coker:
> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml

Works fine here using KDE 3.1 Beta 2 + CVS 20021020 debs from Karolina


Michael
-- 
Homepage: http://www.worldforge.org/
GPG-key: http://konqueror.dyndns.org/~mkoch/michael.gpg

link that breaks konqueror

[Russell Coker]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/15/wfat15.xml

The above link causes all Konqueror sessions to hang on my machine.  Can 
someone try replicating this?

I'm using a version of Konqueror that's not from the Debian repository so I 
haven't filed a Debian bug report...

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

[Josip Rodin]

(debian-gnome doesn't exist; adjusted to debian-gtk-gnome. I also don't read
-kde or -gtk-gnome so please Cc: appropriately.)

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 01:59:17PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> > personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> > in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> > problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> 
> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> I don't think most users really care.

I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is
to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.

(Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other
applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three
separate menus, some of which empty.)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: KDevelop: API-Index conundrum

[Ed Cogburn]

Michael Schuerig wrote:
On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:34, Ralf Nolden wrote:
On Thursday 24 October 2002 04:03, Michael Schuerig wrote:
[Where are the API indexes stored?]

apt-get install kdelibs4-doc kdebase-doc qt-doc  or something like
that should help you. It's the HTML API documentation that you need
to install.

I do have installed qt3-doc and kdelibs4-doc. There apparently is no 
kdebase-doc for KDE3. KDevelop (2.13) doesn't seem to recognize the 
kdelibs4 doc files, it flashes a warning at me "The chosen path does 
not lead to the
KDE-library documentation. Do you really want to save
this value?". Nevertheless, it accepts it and sets, in its config-file 
doc_kde to /usr/share/doc/kdelibs4-doc/html/. And there the files are 
indeed; the setup wizard even finds this location by itself.

Also, how do I make KDevelop forget about API docs of a no longer 
existing project?

I have the same problem with Gideon, it simply won't recognize the right path. 
 In fact I suspect its getting its values from somewhere else because it acts 
like it was "compliled" with /usr/share/doc/qt3-doc/ as the path for QT3 docs. 
 Nothing I put in changes this behavior, it seems to simply ignore what 
values I put in.  I can't get KDE docs to show either.

Re: KDevelop: API-Index conundrum

[Michael Schuerig]

On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:34, Ralf Nolden wrote:
> On Thursday 24 October 2002 04:03, Michael Schuerig wrote:
[Where are the API indexes stored?]

> apt-get install kdelibs4-doc kdebase-doc qt-doc  or something like
> that should help you. It's the HTML API documentation that you need
> to install.

I do have installed qt3-doc and kdelibs4-doc. There apparently is no 
kdebase-doc for KDE3. KDevelop (2.13) doesn't seem to recognize the 
kdelibs4 doc files, it flashes a warning at me "The chosen path does 
not lead to the
KDE-library documentation. Do you really want to save
this value?". Nevertheless, it accepts it and sets, in its config-file 
doc_kde to /usr/share/doc/kdelibs4-doc/html/. And there the files are 
indeed; the setup wizard even finds this location by itself.

Also, how do I make KDevelop forget about API docs of a no longer 
existing project?

Thanks!

Michael

-- 
Michael Schuerig  If at first you don't succeed...
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   try, try again.
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/   --Jerome Morrow, "Gattaca"

Re: KDevelop: API-Index conundrum

[Setyo Nugroho]

Michael,

The Qt/KDE Libraries HTML docs are stored in
/usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kdevelop, in my case. 

Or this might help you: "locate /HTML/en/kdevelop". 

Regards,
Setyo Nugroho


On Thu, 2002-10-24 at 09:34, Ralf Nolden wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Thursday 24 October 2002 04:03, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > KDevelop (2.13) is trying to make a fool of me. It does not show the
> > KDE3 docs in the help tree below "Qt/KDE Libraries". It does show
> > entries for projects I have created (one of them deleted in the
> > meantime).
> >
> > Where are these settings stored? I've searched everywhere I could think
> > of and then some more and didn't find it.
> 
> apt-get install kdelibs4-doc kdebase-doc qt-doc  or something like that 
> should 
> help you. It's the HTML API documentation that you need to install.
> 
> Ralf
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --
> > Michael Schuerig  If at first you don't succeed...
> > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   try, try again.
> > http://www.schuerig.de/michael/   --Jerome Morrow, "Gattaca"
> 
> - -- 
> We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
> - 
> Ralf Nolden
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> The K Desktop Environment   The KDevelop Project
> http://www.kde.org  http://www.kdevelop.org
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQE9t6Juu0nKi+w1Ky8RAqArAJ0T3m2qqMQg1DzKZK80pNQy+R0zfgCfWdKS
> ze8ApN55YD16Il7weTHutbs=
> =cUdo
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: kde 3.0.3

[Martin Lang]

i have also installed xfce and xfce runs without any
problems so i think my XF86Config is ok.
i configured my xf86config with debconf
and debconf put two mouse devices in the
config! but if i del one of the mouse section
then the x-server doesn't start, he tell me
anything about "no screens found".
Arash Bijanzadeh schrieb:
I think you mixx configured your mouse. Have you changed your XF86config after 
ugrading?
Try loading just X without any windowmanager
 

Hello list,
im install debian on my notebook (woody 3.0)
and now i set up kde 3.0.3.
my xserver runs, kde 2 ran.
but kde3 crash if i start it!
here are the output from the xserver:
--8<---
(EE) Generic Mouse: cannot open input device
(EE) PreInit failed for input device "Generic Mouse"
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Configured Mouse" (type: MOUSE)
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = ksplash path =  pid = 2575
DCOPServer up and running.
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = kded path =  pid = 2586
DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2585' to 'kded'
ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = kcminit path =  pid = 2589
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = knotify path =  pid = 2592
DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2591' to 'knotify'
ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = ksmserver path =  pid = 2596
kdeinit: Fatal IO error: client killed
kdeinit: sending SIGHUP to children.
KLauncher: Exiting on signal 1
waiting for X server to shut down .kdeinit: sending SIGTERM to children.
kdeinit: Exit.
.
-8<
thanks for help
bye
   


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 


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hardware- & software- design GmbH | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
im Tiegel 9 | www.thiesen.com
36367 Wartenberg | tel. +49 (0) 6641 979-142 fax -299

Re: kde 3.0.3

[Arash Bijanzadeh]

I think you mixx configured your mouse. Have you changed your XF86config after 
ugrading?
Try loading just X without any windowmanager
> Hello list,
> im install debian on my notebook (woody 3.0)
> and now i set up kde 3.0.3.
> my xserver runs, kde 2 ran.
> but kde3 crash if i start it!
> here are the output from the xserver:
>
> --8<---
>
> (EE) Generic Mouse: cannot open input device
> (EE) PreInit failed for input device "Generic Mouse"
> (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Configured Mouse" (type: MOUSE)
> KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> KCrash: Application Name = ksplash path =  pid = 2575
> DCOPServer up and running.
> KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> KCrash: Application Name = kded path =  pid = 2586
> DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2585' to 'kded'
> ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
> KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> KCrash: Application Name = kcminit path =  pid = 2589
> KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> KCrash: Application Name = knotify path =  pid = 2592
> DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2591' to 'knotify'
> ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
> KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
> KCrash: Application Name = ksmserver path =  pid = 2596
> kdeinit: Fatal IO error: client killed
> kdeinit: sending SIGHUP to children.
> KLauncher: Exiting on signal 1
>
> waiting for X server to shut down .kdeinit: sending SIGTERM to children.
> kdeinit: Exit.
> .
> -8<
>
> thanks for help
>
> bye

kde 3.0.3

[Martin Lang]

Hello list,
im install debian on my notebook (woody 3.0)
and now i set up kde 3.0.3.
my xserver runs, kde 2 ran.
but kde3 crash if i start it!
here are the output from the xserver:
--8<---
(EE) Generic Mouse: cannot open input device
(EE) PreInit failed for input device "Generic Mouse"
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Configured Mouse" (type: MOUSE)
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = ksplash path =  pid = 2575
DCOPServer up and running.
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = kded path =  pid = 2586
DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2585' to 'kded'
ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = kcminit path =  pid = 2589
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = knotify path =  pid = 2592
DCOP aborting call from 'anonymous-2591' to 'knotify'
ERROR: KUniqueApplication: DCOP communication error!
KCrash: crashing crashRecursionCounter = 2
KCrash: Application Name = ksmserver path =  pid = 2596
kdeinit: Fatal IO error: client killed
kdeinit: sending SIGHUP to children.
KLauncher: Exiting on signal 1
waiting for X server to shut down .kdeinit: sending SIGTERM to children.
kdeinit: Exit.

Re: KDevelop: API-Index conundrum

[Ralf Nolden]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 24 October 2002 04:03, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> KDevelop (2.13) is trying to make a fool of me. It does not show the
> KDE3 docs in the help tree below "Qt/KDE Libraries". It does show
> entries for projects I have created (one of them deleted in the
> meantime).
>
> Where are these settings stored? I've searched everywhere I could think
> of and then some more and didn't find it.

apt-get install kdelibs4-doc kdebase-doc qt-doc  or something like that should 
help you. It's the HTML API documentation that you need to install.

Ralf
>
> Michael
>
> --
> Michael Schuerig  If at first you don't succeed...
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   try, try again.
> http://www.schuerig.de/michael/   --Jerome Morrow, "Gattaca"

- -- 
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
- 
Ralf Nolden
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The K Desktop Environment   The KDevelop Project
http://www.kde.org  http://www.kdevelop.org
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux)

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ze8ApN55YD16Il7weTHutbs=
=cUdo
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

atrsd + nas = ?

[Nikita V. Youshchenko]

Hello.

What is the correct way (is there one?) to make artsd (KDE3) to output to a 
nas server over the network?  This is needed to make sound work on old PCs 
used as X terminals. (Old PCs are too slow to run KDE3 natively, but work 
well as terminals)

Seems that if AUDIOSERVER var is set on KDE3 startup, system notification 
sounds do go to nas server (without arts even started! now does it work?), 
but complex audio apps (e.g. noatun) don't work.

If I start artsd using audiooss, everything works, but sound quality is poor 
(possibly because artsd started this way doesn't have realtime priority.

I've read somewhere in the net that artsd does support nas output. But I 
can't find out how to use it using KDE 3.0.4 sid packages from kde.org

Re: Про испорченный mc в konsole со свежим qt

[Nikita V. Youshchenko]

I apologize.
This messagewas for another mailing list.

> Кто-то писал тут про этот глюк...
> 
> Так вот, я сегодня полдня мучил qt в gdb. Результат - есть воркараунд,
> см. мой комментарий внизу http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44993.