Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[M G Berberich]

Hello,

Am Montag, den 20. März schrieb solitone:

> we had a discussion on the kde mailing list, and a gentoo user spotted this 
> out. Looking at package versions in gentoo it's pretty easy to figure out 
> whether something is based on kf5 or kf4.

Yes. Because in stretch kf5-based applications, at least at the
moment, do not follow the font-hinting settings, while KDE4-based
programs do.

MfG
bmg

-- 
„Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
 sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!“  | m...@m-berberich.de
(SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg)  | 

Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

[fradev]

On 20/03/17 17:02:55 CET, Thom Castermans wrote:
> 2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson :
> > Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a
> > keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic
> > typing.
> I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who
> is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.

Regardless of users' expertise, the default KDE (and Gnome, XFCE, whatever) 
installation should be targeted to the general public. Therefore, a setup not 
for power users nor for completely inexperienced users (I don't think they are 
the majority in the GNU/Linux realm), where basic components are provided by 
default and more advanced features and applications are installable on 
request.

Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

[Thom Castermans]

2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson :

> Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a
> keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.
>

I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who
is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[Luigi Toscano]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 17:01:24 CET solitone wrote:
> On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:42:21 CET Luigi Toscano wrote:
> > On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:36:11 CET solitone wrote:
> 
> > > As well as okular, kde-baseapps-bin (providing kdialog) would need an
> > > upgrade to 16.12 to take advantage of kf5.
> > 
> > That would be more complicated: kde-baseapps does not exist anymore, it
> > has
> > been split into its components (konqueror, kfind, keditbookmarks,
> > kdialog).
> 
> Ouch  :-(

I mean, this case will be handled (for the migration between Stretch and 
Buster), just it's not trivial.

Ciao
-- 
Luigi

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[solitone]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:42:21 CET Luigi Toscano wrote:
> On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:36:11 CET solitone wrote:
> > I fear that too. It would be nice thought that it'd be at least included
> > in sid, so that we could backport it to stretch.
> 
> I guess you mean experimental. That will happen for sure when sid is open
> again for changes after the release; using sid now means some more
> complications in case a fix needs to go directly into testing and then
> stable.

Well, to tell the truth I didn't. I still have very little knowledge on debian 
release cycles.

> > As well as okular, kde-baseapps-bin (providing kdialog) would need an
> > upgrade to 16.12 to take advantage of kf5.
> 
> That would be more complicated: kde-baseapps does not exist anymore, it has
> been split into its components (konqueror, kfind, keditbookmarks, kdialog).

Ouch  :-(

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[solitone]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:39:53 CET Luigi Toscano wrote:
> The package name in gentoo seems to have no specific hints; but anyway,
> looking at the dependencies in Debian you can spot the version of Qt used
> (and/or whether it's kdelibs4 vs Frameworks).

This is what that user sees on gentoo:

> $equery list -op okular
> * Searching for okular ...
> [-P-] [  ] kde-apps/okular-16.08.3:4/16.08
> [-P-] [  ] kde-apps/okular-16.12.3:5
> [I-O] [  ] kde-apps/okular-:5

He tells me that:

okular-16.08.3:4 means that release 16.08 is in slot 4, so kde4.
okular-16.12.3:5 means that 16.12 is in slot 5, so kf5.

Slots are mechanisms specific to gentoo's package-management.

Cheers,
  Davide

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[Luigi Toscano]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:36:11 CET solitone wrote:
> On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:23:06 CET Luigi Toscano wrote:
> > > Anyway, for the reason you gave, I think it would be a good thing if
> > > that
> > > was included in stretch. It might give a better user experience.
> > 
> > I think it's a bit too late given the release cycle, but I'm not a
> > packager
> > for those components.
> 
> I fear that too. It would be nice thought that it'd be at least included in
> sid, so that we could backport it to stretch.

I guess you mean experimental. That will happen for sure when sid is open 
again for changes after the release; using sid now means some more 
complications in case a fix needs to go directly into testing and then stable.

> 
> As well as okular, kde-baseapps-bin (providing kdialog) would need an
> upgrade to 16.12 to take advantage of kf5.

That would be more complicated: kde-baseapps does not exist anymore, it has 
been split into its components (konqueror, kfind, keditbookmarks, kdialog).

-- 
Luigi

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[Luigi Toscano]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:32:06 CET solitone wrote:
> On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:15:43 CET inkbottle wrote:
> > what made you find out that the 16.12 version was kf5 based?
> > I can see it there:
> >  > version=16.12.0#okular>
> > But I have to read hard.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> we had a discussion on the kde mailing list, and a gentoo user spotted this
> out. Looking at package versions in gentoo it's pretty easy to figure out
> whether something is based on kf5 or kf4.

The package name in gentoo seems to have no specific hints; but anyway, 
looking at the dependencies in Debian you can spot the version of Qt used 
(and/or whether it's kdelibs4 vs Frameworks).

Also, it's in the second paragraph on the official announcement:
https://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-applications-16.12.0.php

Ciao
-- 
Luigi

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[solitone]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:23:06 CET Luigi Toscano wrote:
> > Anyway, for the reason you gave, I think it would be a good thing if that
> > was included in stretch. It might give a better user experience.
> 
> I think it's a bit too late given the release cycle, but I'm not a packager
> for those components.

I fear that too. It would be nice thought that it'd be at least included in 
sid, so that we could backport it to stretch.

As well as okular, kde-baseapps-bin (providing kdialog) would need an upgrade 
to 16.12 to take advantage of kf5.

Ciao,
  Davide

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[solitone]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:15:43 CET inkbottle wrote:
> what made you find out that the 16.12 version was kf5 based?
> I can see it there:
>  version=16.12.0#okular>
> But I have to read hard.

Hi,

we had a discussion on the kde mailing list, and a gentoo user spotted this 
out. Looking at package versions in gentoo it's pretty easy to figure out 
whether something is based on kf5 or kf4.

Cheers,
  Davide

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[Luigi Toscano]

On Monday, 20 March 2017 16:15:43 CET inkbottle wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2017 2:56:03 PM CET solitone wrote:
> > So my question is: is there any chance that relase 16.12 of okular and
> > kdialog (based on kde-frameworks5)  are included in stretch? Currently
> > we've got 16.08 (kde4 based), both in stretch an in sid.
> 
> That is interesting, I haven't spotted that Okular was based on kde4.
> Probably because it's so pivotal, that there is no question about
> installing it or not.
> 
> Also, what made you find out that the 16.12 version was kf5 based?
> I can see it there:
>  version=16.12.0#okular>
> But I have to read hard.

It's an implementation detail and normal users should not care, save 
unfortunately for this HiDPI issue.

> 
> Anyway, for the reason you gave, I think it would be a good thing if that
> was included in stretch. It might give a better user experience.

I think it's a bit too late given the release cycle, but I'm not a packager 
for those components.

Ciao
-- 
Luigi

Re: [stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[inkbottle]

On Monday, March 20, 2017 2:56:03 PM CET solitone wrote:
> So my question is: is there any chance that relase 16.12 of okular and
> kdialog (based on kde-frameworks5)  are included in stretch? Currently
> we've got 16.08 (kde4 based), both in stretch an in sid.

That is interesting, I haven't spotted that Okular was based on kde4. Probably 
because it's so pivotal, that there is no question about installing it or not.

Also, what made you find out that the 16.12 version was kf5 based?
I can see it there:

But I have to read hard.

Anyway, for the reason you gave, I think it would be a good thing if that was 
included in stretch. It might give a better user experience.

Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 03/20/2017 06:41 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:

On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:

On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
"debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
the way it should be.


That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
bug report?



Office= okular


Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind
being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker
(ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox
(which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version
of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)


Well for one thing, someone wanting *office will be able to click 
install office, if you want it in you may as well put a typing tutor in 
there too.  But kpat, frozen-bubble or texas-holdem would get more use 
from the average user.  If we think positive some educational programs 
could be added, maybe somethings from child's play or a beginners coding 
app, it getting to some family member who has the yearn to be creative 
and productive would be a blessing. Maybe you don't know it, but the 
average user does not know how to use a keyboard, like putting your 
index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.

--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.4 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

[stretch] kdialog and okular still based on kde4

[solitone]

Hi,

I'm on stretch, and use Plasma 5 as desktop environment. While I've managed to 
set the right size for most desktop and application icons on my HiDPI 
display,there are some few icons that appear still too small.

One example is Okular and the icons of the menu entries, as you can see in 
screenshot [1]. Also the Save and Cancel icons in the Okular open document 
popup are small [2],  as well as the Save and Cancel icons in the Save File 
KDialog I get when saving something from Chrome or Gimp, for instance [3]. By 
contrast, when saving a file from KWrite those two icons have a regular size 
[4].

KDialog in itself has this problem. When I run it from the command line like 
in the following example, I get the usual minuscule save and cancel icons I 
dislike:

solitone@alan:~$ kdialog --getsavefilename /tmp

The reason for this seems to depend on the older Qt version that kdialog and 
okular rely on:

solitone@alan:~$ kdialog --version
Qt: 4.8.7
KDE Development Platform: 4.14.26
KDialog: 1.0
solitone@alan:~$ okular --version
Qt: 4.8.7
KDE Development Platform: 4.14.26
Okular: 0.26.1

While kate and kmail, for example, that don't have the issue, are based on Qt 
5.7.1.

Here are the packages involved:

solitone@alan:~$ apt-cache policy okular
okular:
  Installed: 4:16.08.2-1+b1
  Candidate: 4:16.08.2-1+b1

solitone@alan:~$ apt-cache policy kde-baseapps-bin 
kde-baseapps-bin:
  Installed: 4:16.08.3-1
  Candidate: 4:16.08.3-1

HiDPI is not well supported in Qt version 4.8.x, so this explains the issue in 
kdialog and okular.

So my question is: is there any chance that relase 16.12 of okular and kdialog 
(based on kde-frameworks5)  are included in stretch? Currently we've got 16.08 
(kde4 based), both in stretch an in sid.

Cheers,
  Davide

-
[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvxlza9w2jbamn7/1.jpeg?dl=0
[2] https://www.dropbox.com/s/1s354x9busonolu/2.jpeg?dl=0
[3] https://www.dropbox.com/s/9xat2tri295za1r/3.jpeg?dl=0
[4] https://www.dropbox.com/s/uxqrvmnh3mn376d/4.jpeg?dl=0

Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

[rhkramer]

On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
> > On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> >> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
> >> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
> >> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
> >> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
> >> the way it should be.
> > 
> > That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
> > possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
> > bug report?

> Office= okular

Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind 
being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker 
(ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox 
(which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version 
of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)

Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 03/17/2017 02:48 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 15. März 2017, 19:01:16 CET schrieb fradev:

The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in
my opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
applications installed by default.

While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
least for me, in different occasions I had to:

- manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
setup;
- or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
installation (and break meta-packages).


There are metapackages of finer granularity available like kde-standard,
kdegraphics, kdemultimedia.



I'm looking at it from the eyes of an average computer user, what they 
expect and what to do if something is not there that they 
expect(synaptic), fixing users problems. kde-plasma-desktop covers most, 
no PIM, that is a personal choice, like you say,install kde-standard if 
you want PIM, the average user don't even know how to use a keyboard 
like we do, less a personal information manager.  They want to play 
dvd's, cd's, watch youtube, play internet games and do Facebook, but 
with a lot of them even Facebook is over their head. "Point-N-Click or 
Tap" is all they want to do.  The average user is not being creative or 
productive while using the computer nor on this list.


regards,
--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Sid/Testing - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda15
Registered Linux User #380263