Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
On Thursday 21 Feb 2002 9:34 am, Gregor Zeitlinger wrote: On Wed, 20 Feb 2002, Jens Benecke wrote: A) Preloading. Persuade Dell or Compaq to load Linux on *ALL* machines (and sell Windows as an optional upgrade). That helps for business machines. It helps for everyone. Not only Dell and Compaq, but also companies like Staples, Walmart, MediaMarkt and whatever should preload Linux on their computers, and offer Windows as an optional upgrade. Just a few days ago, I read that Dell stopped shipping preloaded Linux machines because of low demand. I asked them to ship me a laptop without windows and they just plain refused. (Dell UK). Actually, I prefer to install myself (using a debian image from a lab-wide CD image); perhaps that's why nobody wanted it. Actually, they have just lost the contract ot supply us big time. Quote for a dual proceessor machine with 1GB RAM and about 40GB SCSI drive came in at c. £4700, eventually sourced same spec machine for £1800 (with Athlons in it -- even faster!) Even if the service I get stinks (which it hasn't so far -- it has been great), at that price differential I can just buy two of everything. That said, I have absolutely no complaints about the laptop, which runs sid/kde very well, except I've not sorted out the sleep mode properly (close the lid when it's on battery and it crashes; suspend behaves itself but you loose sound). Nick/
Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Thursday 21 February 2002 07:20 am, Jens Benecke wrote: On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:18:00AM +, Nick Bailey wrote: [snip] What brand is it? I was considering a Dell. I would like a 15 screen (or 14 with 1400x1050), 128 or 256MB RAM, decent CPU (well, 700MHz+), and 10-20G hard disk. [snip] Yup! Me too! Where'd you find them? and how much?? - -- __ OutCast Computer Consultants of Central Oregon http://outcast-consultants.redmond.or.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] (541) 504-1388 Toll Free (866) 562-7160 Via IRC at; 205.227.115.251:6667:#OutCasts Via ICQ: UIN 138930 Failure is not an option...it's bundled with Microsoft -anonymous- Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature, please! Software is like sex. They're both better when they're free!! - Linus Torvalds As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product. gawk; talk; nice; date; wine; grep; touch; unzip; touch; gasp; finger; gasp; lyx; mount; fsck; more; yes; gasp; umount; make clean; make mrproper; sleep. -- Just another *nix date --
Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
On Wednesday 20 February 2002 00:17, Gregor Zeitlinger wrote: Well build your own kde based distribution! Shouldn't be to hard. And if your right you will have a winning product, can become milionair, etc. I agree people don't want to hear about al these versions of this and versions of that, but it is what linux is about. You can should which version you think is most stable and use it. Bastiaan
Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
Two things need to be done: A) Preloading. Persuade Dell or Compaq to load Linux on *ALL* machines (and sell Windows as an optional upgrade). That helps for business machines. B) Games. Kids had absolutely no problems spending WEEKS trying to customize CONFIG.SYS, installing new memory managers, hacking their system to get more free RAM, just for DOOM to be 0.2% faster. They will become the ultimate Linux cracks if the goal is there. You just can't impress a 13-old with an ultra-fast and stable Apache. I couldn't care less about games, but I know a LOT of people who would switch to Linux today if they could play games there. 100% correct. Apple lost the Macintosh-PC war because most of the games running on serious machines (that was the time where there were a lot of 8bit home computers + the Amiga as pure diversion computers) came out on PC before (if ever) on Mac. When Games will be put on the market at the same timeon Linux and Windows. Linux will win, because in addition it is more serious. Michel.
Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
On Wednesday 20 February 2002 14:33, Michel Loos wrote: B) Games. Kids had absolutely no problems spending WEEKS trying to customize CONFIG.SYS, installing new memory managers, hacking their system to get more free RAM, just for DOOM to be 0.2% faster. They will become the ultimate Linux cracks if the goal is there. You just can't impress a 13-old with an ultra-fast and stable Apache. I couldn't care less about games, but I know a LOT of people who would switch to Linux today if they could play games there. 100% correct. Apple lost the Macintosh-PC war because most of the games running on serious machines (that was the time where there were a lot of 8bit home computers + the Amiga as pure diversion computers) came out on PC before (if ever) on Mac. When Games will be put on the market at the same timeon Linux and Windows. Linux will win, because in addition it is more serious. Still I think also OLD games should be playable under linux, I'd still like to play games from the 80's once in a while. I have an old pentium for that at the moment. I have tried to run them under dosemu, but boy is that slow. Simcity is not al all playable. Larry I won't even walk two steps in a minute! Bastiaan
Re: Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
On Wednesday 20 February 2002 01:31 pm, Jens Benecke wrote:
[snip]
Plus, Microsoft has started a really big FUD campaign about the GPL,
which makes many vendors uneasy. At the same time they put stuff like
we have a right to know what is on your harddisk in the EULA, and
nobody seems to notice ...
BRAVO ZULU!!
At least I'm not the ONLY soul alive that noticed this and had alarm
flags/bells/whistles go off in his head!!
[rant]
I'm just a lowly American pion, but isn't Illegal sill illegal??? Why is
this company still allowd to do business??? What do they (M$) {or we the
users} have to do to get this elivated to the Omsa Bin Laden level?? How much
longer are we going to allow this company who's illegal (AND immoral) actions
threaten the world???!!!???
[/rant]
Jens, next time yer in the U.S., beer/dinner/whatever is on me! Thanks for
saying what I've felt for too long. (and yes, i fight them {personally} in
every way I can [including no longer supporting any of their 'server
systems'].
- --
__
OutCast Computer Consultants of Central Oregon
http://outcast-consultants.redmond.or.us
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(541) 504-1388
Toll Free (866) 562-7160
Via IRC at; 205.227.115.251:6667:#OutCasts
Via ICQ: UIN 138930
Failure is not an option...it's bundled with Microsoft
-anonymous-
Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature, please!
Software is like sex. They're both better when they're free!! - Linus
Torvalds
As a computing professional, I believe it would be unethical for me to
advise, recommend, or support the use (save possibly for personal
amusement) of any product that is or depends on any Microsoft product.
gawk; talk; nice; date; wine; grep; touch; unzip; touch; gasp; finger; gasp;
lyx; mount; fsck; more; yes; gasp; umount; make clean; make mrproper;
sleep.
-- Just another *nix date --
Distibutions (was KDE Debian distribution)
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Ron Johnson wrote: On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:33:28 +0100 (CET) Gregor Zeitlinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are asking about a Distribution, try http://www.libranet.com. Just started shipping v2.0. I was reather looking for something KDE only to save disk space and to increase ease of installing. Not for myself actually, as my skill was sufficient to to install debian with dselect, but I'd like to recommend people a linux system where you can upgrade with one command, but which still is not too complicated to install, doen't take dozens of cds and has a coherent look'n'feel. Even though I hate Windows, I think this is one of their strong points and I have hopes apt-get + KDE could get even there. Most people in the M$ world need exactely 2 cds. Win and Office. That's it. It doesn't aleways work and crashes alot, but at least you don't need to know what a window manager is to get it installed. That's why I would prefer it KDE only. Why KDE and not Gnome? It's the consitent look'n'feel which KDE can certainly deliver. Gnome has a couple good apps like StarOffice (or are they still using AbiWord?) and Evolution, but the integration is terrible. Some are even using different widgets=different look'n'feel. Does it bother? Yes, it bothers if open file dialogs are different everywhere. Contrast to KDE: Everywhere you can open a file, it can be from an ftp site of from a tar archive. Everywhere! That's even better than Windows, although this is one of M$'s primary design decisions. Well, I got a little of topic, but I hope you got the pivotal point. Every widget from the first boot up should be KDE look'n'feel. That was something that I know will bother people, even if they install a beginners distro like Mandrake or SuSE. During install they have their own wigets and later you'll get the Gnome or KDE widets, whatever you chose. That's already a fault right there. You should have one thing people can relate two. They don't wanna know they've got Linux as kernel, GNU for the tools, debian distro, Qt toolkit, KDE desktop environment, KOffice office suite. That's confusing for non-technical people. Let's just use one of those labels but mean all of them and attach a version number, so people can compare whether they're compatible or not. Like KDE2 and KDE3 Or like (in the M$ world): Great game you've got, what does it need? 95, 98, Me or XP Ok. That's already the limit of what most people can handle. I'd already have trouble telling my mom that versions is a issue at all but four labels... it might give it a try. Now compare two what to the linux world. You either need Red Hat 6.0-7.2, Suse 7.0+, Mandrade 8+ ... or Here's a document I've done in Suse 7.2 Hey, I can't open it (he was using StarOffice rather than KOffice) That's not going to win us the desktop battle any time soon. We need to have one thing and versions of that one thing. That means one office suit, one browser, one look'n'feel, one distro. Economically the reason is the overwhelming network effect (which also it the reason M$ is so successful regardless of what crap they produce): the more people use a solution, the more attractive it is for you (you can share data with them (ideally that can be overcome by open source data formats) and you can ask and learn from them (this one can't be overcome by open data formats: a fact often overlooked by hackers). Now by using a solution you also make it more attractive for others to use it. Of course this is not the only reason we chose a solution. Technological reasons or subjective reasons are also important. Now there basically two scenarios. Busnesses and private users. From what I've heard business managers for office apps mainly decide what they choose out of compatability considerations. That is, they want to have what everybody else has, so every time they they get documents from business partners, they'll be able to handle them. Now let's suppose that a managers perception at starting time is that MS Office is the product used by most other possible business partners. (This can either be fact or M$ propaganda). Likely, they'll choose MS Office. The next business has even more incentive to do so, because the number of MS using businesses has just increased. Wao: This even works, if nobody was using MS at first and it was just a marketing gag! You've just discovered the basics of marketing: Suggest something until it gets true In other words the network effect is so dominant, that there's almost no competition about the product itself. It doesn't really matter which has a better fuctioality or anything. That's the most fundamental reason it's so hard for linux in the desktop market. The network effect is lesser in the server market, as independed data formats plus independent administrators allow for product competition (which is the very thing M$ want's to change) In the very rare occasion businesses managers acutally look at a product itself they certainly
