Re: Automounter in KDE
> Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > ... > > How about mount-on-demand? > ... > > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > > the majority of the population (;-)). > > It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently > happening > transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I would like to > have a system where either everything is mounted and umounted manually or > everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted and umounted (like the > old > Macintosh System with SCSI). I'm using Sarge and it doesn't automatically > mount USB devices when you plug them in and I can manually mount some > devices, but not others (I would happily enrole in any "I hate USB" club). > I've tried SuSE 9.1: this is dreadful, automatically but unreliably > mounting > stuff unter strange names and leaving old zombie folders about in /mnt. > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > somebody > sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand resource > on > present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > Theo Schmidt > I'm glad I'm not the only one struggeling with this issue. I condisider myself primarily a desktop-user, but since I run and really like debian, I guess I also want to know whats goin on behind the gui. I'm happy with the way the KDE Applet "Storage Media" works for me. I now have fstab entries that work for my three USB devices, one pendrive and two external HDs (one vfat, one ext3). The applet lets me mount and remove USB devices. When a device is inserted it appears in the Panel. This also works for the CD drive. It probably won't work if a device is plugged in which does not end up, in my case, on sda or sda5. Then I either have to edit fstab for the new device or some other mechanism is necessary. Below is what I have on my computer. /dev/hdc/media/cdrom0 iso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 /dev/sda/media/usb autouser,noauto 0 0 /dev/sda5 /media/usb5 autouser,noauto 0 0 Linux acer 2.6.11-1-686 #1 Mon Jun 20 22:00:38 MDT 2005 i686 GNU/Linux ii kdelibs3.4.1-1core libraries from the official KDE release ii kdelibs-bin3.4.1-1core binaries for all KDE applications ii kdelibs-data 3.4.1-1core shared data for all KDE applications ii kdelibs4 3.4.1-1core libraries for all KDE applications ii kdebase3.4.1-1base components from the official KDE releas ii kdebase-bin3.4.1-1core binaries for the KDE base module ii kdebase-data 3.4.1-1shared data files for the KDE base module ii kdebase-kio-pl 3.4.1-1core I/O slaves for KDE ii mount 2.12p-4Tools for mounting and manipulating filesyst ii pmount 0.8-2 mount removable devices as normal user -- 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ -- 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Derek Broughton a écrit : [...] >>I don't think Kde should have an automounter: I hate this messages >>another sucking OS send all the time... >>I want to decide what the system must do: computer is a tool for me and >>I'm not its slave :) > > > I don't understand the point. If KDE automounts a device (which I think it > should do) it doesn't have any need to send you messages about it. I want > to decide _what_ to do with the device, but I need it mounted before I can > do anything, so I _always_ want it mounted. I had in mind some popups that appear on another system indicate that this or this device is detected, that It will be ready soon But you're right It could be an automounter without messages, I think icons appear on the desktop like Knoppix do, could be simple and so great. Jody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
> Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > ... > > How about mount-on-demand? > ... > > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > > the majority of the population (;-)). > > It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently > happening > transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I would like to > have a system where either everything is mounted and umounted manually or > everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted and umounted (like the > old > Macintosh System with SCSI). I'm using Sarge and it doesn't automatically > mount USB devices when you plug them in and I can manually mount some > devices, but not others (I would happily enrole in any "I hate USB" club). > I've tried SuSE 9.1: this is dreadful, automatically but unreliably > mounting > stuff unter strange names and leaving old zombie folders about in /mnt. > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > somebody > sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand resource > on > present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > Theo Schmidt > I'm glad I'm not the only one struggeling with this issue. I condisider myself primarily a desktop-user, but since I run and really like debian, I guess I also want to know whats goin on behind the gui. I'm happy with the way the KDE Applet "Storage Media" works for me. I now have fstab entries that work for my three USB devices, one pendrive and two external HDs (one vfat, one ext3). The applet lets me mount and remove USB devices. When a device is inserted it appears in the Panel. This also works for the CD drive. It probably won't work if a device is plugged in which does not end up, in my case, on sda or sda5. Then I either have to edit fstab for the new device or some other mechanism is necessary. Below is what I have on my computer. /dev/hdc/media/cdrom0 iso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 /dev/sda/media/usb autouser,noauto 0 0 /dev/sda5 /media/usb5 autouser,noauto 0 0 Linux acer 2.6.11-1-686 #1 Mon Jun 20 22:00:38 MDT 2005 i686 GNU/Linux ii kdelibs3.4.1-1core libraries from the official KDE release ii kdelibs-bin3.4.1-1core binaries for all KDE applications ii kdelibs-data 3.4.1-1core shared data for all KDE applications ii kdelibs4 3.4.1-1core libraries for all KDE applications ii kdebase3.4.1-1base components from the official KDE releas ii kdebase-bin3.4.1-1core binaries for the KDE base module ii kdebase-data 3.4.1-1shared data files for the KDE base module ii kdebase-kio-pl 3.4.1-1core I/O slaves for KDE ii mount 2.12p-4Tools for mounting and manipulating filesyst ii pmount 0.8-2 mount removable devices as normal user -- 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
> numbers, I wonder how many Linux systems have a single (vs. multiple) real > (i.e., human) users? Maybe we need a single user and a multiuser Linux (OS > and kernel?)? I doubt that it can be done - Linux was build as multiuser system to avoid security and other issues which present in m$. So making a singleuser system is equal with building a m$ clone. And I doubt we need it. But it doesn't mean that mouning/umounting can't be done normally. Larry Garfield was right - 1970s are over. --- Original message --- From: Randy Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 23:55 > On Thursday 11 August 2005 03:32 pm, Kevin Krammer wrote: > > No. If you successfully unmount a filesystem it implies that nobody else > > was using it at that time. > > If you remove a data medium without having its filesystem unmounted first > > can lead to application crashed or worse (data loss). > > > > A possible correct behaviour would be to send an unmount request to all > > process currently using the filesystem/medium in question on eject > > requests and remove it when it can be savely unmounted. > > Thanks! Not sure that's the perfect solution, but it sure sounds like a > step in the right direction--thinking of a way to accomplish something > rather than reasons to not accomplish something. Also, in terms of > numbers, I wonder how many Linux systems have a single (vs. multiple) real > (i.e., human) users? Maybe we need a single user and a multiuser Linux (OS > and kernel?)? > > regards, > Randy Kramer
Re: Automounter in KDE
This is a relatively old bug in KDE itself. Folks say the kio_audiocd grab the cdrom and never let it be umounted. There is some workarounds: for example don't open Konqueror's sidebar. You can still umount it as root, which is course not very comfortable. Or you can modify sysctl - for me it's work just fine with the combination with ivman. --- Original message --- From: Theo Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 22:22 > Am Donnerstag, 11. August 2005 21.32 schrieb Kevin Krammer: > > > > A possible correct behaviour would be to send an unmount request to all > > process currently using the filesystem/medium in question on eject > > requests and remove it when it can be savely unmounted. > > I suppose this is what the eject command is supposed to do. In Sarge I > havn't got the eject command to work a single time yet. Often it isn't even > possible to umount a CD-ROM: "device is being used", even when all programs > using the CD are terminated. This is a real pain, as it is often only > possible to remove the CD-ROM after winding down the whole system. A > solution was given I believe on this list a while ago, but it didn't work > (sysctl something). Unfortunately it is small usability bugs like these > which really turn newbies off and back to other systems where these mount > problems don't seem to occur (but other ones :-) > > Theo Schmidt
Re: Automounter in KDE
Jody Noury wrote: > Derek Broughton a écrit : > [...] >> >> Easy enough to fix with udev... Find some unique key for the device with >> udevinfo (USB keys have product names and serial numbers, I would expect >> cameras to have the same), create a udev rule assigning a synonym such as >> "usbkey" or "canonXY", and change your fstab to mount /dev/usbkey >> and /dev/canonXY. > > I'm lazy, It works and I have not found time until now to test udev > although It seems to automat lot of things. yeah, I know _how_ to do it, but I haven't done it either :-) > > I don't think Kde should have an automounter: I hate this messages > another sucking OS send all the time... > I want to decide what the system must do: computer is a tool for me and > I'm not its slave :) I don't understand the point. If KDE automounts a device (which I think it should do) it doesn't have any need to send you messages about it. I want to decide _what_ to do with the device, but I need it mounted before I can do anything, so I _always_ want it mounted. -- derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 07:38 pm, Derek Broughton wrote: > Larry Garfield wrote: > > False. Single-user means a single security space. One key reason that > > Windows is historically so insecure is that it's a single security space, > > and programs are written to assume that so you really can't operate any > > other way. > > While that's true, it puts the lie to the quoted FAQ's reason about why you > shouldn't just be able to eject a CD. If you only need multi-user to > separate security spaces, there's no reason not to let just anybody eject > the CD. To put the blame once again on the kernel dev team (not that I dislike them, I just think they're way off when it comes to removable media), limiting who can change the hardware configuration of the system is not an unreasonable thing from a security standpoint. That was doubly true when all mounted devices were hard drives, network shares, or core memory. We've still not figured out how to make multi-user work with removable media in general. :-) -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Larry Garfield wrote: > But when I plug in my multi-slot USB card > reader, it should automatically create logical, consistent names for each > slot > independently and then mount them as needed. There is, in 2005, simply no > excuse for that to not work automatically. > > Yet, when I do so, I have to first spend an hour with udev's various > not-well-named-or-documented tools to figure out what the heck it is and You need more than /usr/share/doc/udev/writing_udev_rules/index.html? I doubt that's only available in the ubuntu version of udev. -- derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Larry Garfield wrote: > False. Single-user means a single security space. One key reason that > Windows is historically so insecure is that it's a single security space, > and programs are written to assume that so you really can't operate any > other way. While that's true, it puts the lie to the quoted FAQ's reason about why you shouldn't just be able to eject a CD. If you only need multi-user to separate security spaces, there's no reason not to let just anybody eject the CD. > I've never had a problem with my multi-user OS used by a single user that > has been the result of it being a multi-user OS. No, and I think SuSE's reasoning here was wrong. -- derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 06:11 pm, Larry Garfield wrote: > On Thursday 11 August 2005 04:55 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: > > Maybe we need a single user and a multiuser > > Linux (OS and kernel?)? > > False. Single-user means a single security space. One key reason that > Windows is historically so insecure is that it's a single security space, > and programs are written to assume that so you really can't operate any > other way. > Good point, thanks! Randy Kramer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 04:55 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: > Thanks! Not sure that's the perfect solution, but it sure sounds like a > step in the right direction--thinking of a way to accomplish something > rather than reasons to not accomplish something. Also, in terms of > numbers, I wonder how many Linux systems have a single (vs. multiple) real > (i.e., human) users? Maybe we need a single user and a multiuser Linux (OS > and kernel?)? False. Single-user means a single security space. One key reason that Windows is historically so insecure is that it's a single security space, and programs are written to assume that so you really can't operate any other way. If you're splitting admin mode and non-admin mode, then you already have a multi-user system. Artificially limiting the system to just one non-admin accomplishes nothing. I've never had a problem with my multi-user OS used by a single user that has been the result of it being a multi-user OS. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 03:32 pm, Kevin Krammer wrote: > No. If you successfully unmount a filesystem it implies that nobody else > was using it at that time. > If you remove a data medium without having its filesystem unmounted first > can lead to application crashed or worse (data loss). > > A possible correct behaviour would be to send an unmount request to all > process currently using the filesystem/medium in question on eject requests > and remove it when it can be savely unmounted. Thanks! Not sure that's the perfect solution, but it sure sounds like a step in the right direction--thinking of a way to accomplish something rather than reasons to not accomplish something. Also, in terms of numbers, I wonder how many Linux systems have a single (vs. multiple) real (i.e., human) users? Maybe we need a single user and a multiuser Linux (OS and kernel?)? regards, Randy Kramer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 02:19 pm, serja wrote: > About multiuser OS theory I've read in suse faq: > Q: why can't I simply remove the CD from drive without umount it first? > A: because it's a multiuser OS and if you simply remove the CD without > umounting it first the other users can't read it! > *** > Isn't it an excuse rather that theory? :) > And whats happen if I umount it first and that remove? For other users the > result will be the same. :) SuSE is only giving you half the story. Even in a single-user environment, you have to mount and unmount if you have write-behind caching[1] enabled, which it is by default on all drives under Linux. It's not unmounting that bothers me, though. It's mounting in the first place. That has nada to do with single- vs. multi-user OS design, and everything to do with kernel developers who haven't realized that the 70s are over and not everything is either a fixed drive or badly-implemented network share. [1] Wire-behind caching is where the OS queues up stuff to write to disk, then tells you that it's done before it actually is. It then gets to actually writing the data out when it gets around to it, which may well be after you've given it a dozen more write commands for the same disk, which overall saves time. If the device disappears or the system crashes before it gets around to it, though, you lose data. The "sync" command force-flushes all of those caches for various disks, and journaling file systems are intended, in part, to address the potential for badness when that happens. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
From: serja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:13:41 +0200 > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > I think developers from kernel.org not really support the idea of > automounting > and they definitely not support the unplugging / hardware eject of removable > media thingies without umounting them. Have you tried adding the umount command in the file pointed to by $REMOVER when the hotplug scripts are called on the plug-in event? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Am Donnerstag, 11. August 2005 21.32 schrieb Kevin Krammer: ... > A possible correct behaviour would be to send an unmount request to all > process currently using the filesystem/medium in question on eject requests > and remove it when it can be savely unmounted. I suppose this is what the eject command is supposed to do. In Sarge I havn't got the eject command to work a single time yet. Often it isn't even possible to umount a CD-ROM: "device is being used", even when all programs using the CD are terminated. This is a real pain, as it is often only possible to remove the CD-ROM after winding down the whole system. A solution was given I believe on this list a while ago, but it didn't work (sysctl something). Unfortunately it is small usability bugs like these which really turn newbies off and back to other systems where these mount problems don't seem to occur (but other ones :-) Theo Schmidt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Hi, Derek Broughton a écrit : [...] > > Easy enough to fix with udev... Find some unique key for the device with > udevinfo (USB keys have product names and serial numbers, I would expect > cameras to have the same), create a udev rule assigning a synonym such as > "usbkey" or "canonXY", and change your fstab to mount /dev/usbkey > and /dev/canonXY. I'm lazy, It works and I have not found time until now to test udev although It seems to automat lot of things. I'm wondering if there is an url to post our hardware-id ? I don't think Kde should have an automounter: I hate this messages another sucking OS send all the time... I want to decide what the system must do: computer is a tool for me and I'm not its slave :) Jody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 21:19, serja wrote: > About multiuser OS theory I've read in suse faq: > Q: why can't I simply remove the CD from drive without umount it first? > A: because it's a multiuser OS and if you simply remove the CD without > umounting it first the other users can't read it! > *** > Isn't it an excuse rather that theory? :) > And whats happen if I umount it first and that remove? For other users the > result will be the same. :) No. If you successfully unmount a filesystem it implies that nobody else was using it at that time. If you remove a data medium without having its filesystem unmounted first can lead to application crashed or worse (data loss). A possible correct behaviour would be to send an unmount request to all process currently using the filesystem/medium in question on eject requests and remove it when it can be savely unmounted. Cheers, Kevin pgprKcXpd7SOO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Automounter in KDE
> I've already did it in 1995 or so :) Sorry it was win'95, DOS was in '89. :) --- Original message --- From: serja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 21:19 > About multiuser OS theory I've read in suse faq: > Q: why can't I simply remove the CD from drive without umount it first? > A: because it's a multiuser OS and if you simply remove the CD without > umounting it first the other users can't read it! > *** > Isn't it an excuse rather that theory? :) > And whats happen if I umount it first and that remove? For other users the > result will be the same. :) > > > You may want to give DOS a try. > > I've already did it in 1995 or so :) > > --- Original message ------- > From: Christian Surlykke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE > Date: 11 Август 2005 21:01 > > > Ah. So you think kernel developers should drop the multiuser OS theory. > > Interesting point. > > > > You may want to give DOS a try. > > > > br. Chr. > > > > On Thursday 11 August 2005 20:58, serja wrote: > > > read carefully - I wrote: "Linux kernel" not Linux OS :) > > > 99,9% of GNU software build around the Linux kernel, so those > > > applications will be useless without Linux kernel. > > > Everything depend on developers from kernel.org. If they finally drop > > > the multiuser OS theory, then probably things will change. > > > > > > --- Original message --- > > > From: Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org > > > Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE > > > Date: 11 Август 2005 20:45 > > > > > > > On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:22 pm, serja wrote: > > > > > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the > > > > > > kernel, sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get > > > > > > out of the 1970s, that's not going to change. > > > > > > > > > > but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. > > > > > And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. > > > > > > > > I won't argue the first point. I was merely clarifying that the > > > > problem is not with "Linux the system", how 99% of the world uses the > > > > word "Linux", but with "Linux the kernel", the specific piece of > > > > software available on kernel.org. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > > > > > > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > > > > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an > > > > idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps > > > > it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into > > > > the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess > > > > himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Automounter in KDE
About multiuser OS theory I've read in suse faq: Q: why can't I simply remove the CD from drive without umount it first? A: because it's a multiuser OS and if you simply remove the CD without umounting it first the other users can't read it! *** Isn't it an excuse rather that theory? :) And whats happen if I umount it first and that remove? For other users the result will be the same. :) > You may want to give DOS a try. I've already did it in 1995 or so :) --- Original message --- From: Christian Surlykke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 21:01 > Ah. So you think kernel developers should drop the multiuser OS theory. > Interesting point. > > You may want to give DOS a try. > > br. Chr. > > On Thursday 11 August 2005 20:58, serja wrote: > > read carefully - I wrote: "Linux kernel" not Linux OS :) > > 99,9% of GNU software build around the Linux kernel, so those > > applications will be useless without Linux kernel. > > Everything depend on developers from kernel.org. If they finally drop the > > multiuser OS theory, then probably things will change. > > > > --- Original message ------- > > From: Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org > > Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE > > Date: 11 Август 2005 20:45 > > > > > On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:22 pm, serja wrote: > > > > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the > > > > > kernel, sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get > > > > > out of the 1970s, that's not going to change. > > > > > > > > but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. > > > > And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. > > > > > > I won't argue the first point. I was merely clarifying that the > > > problem is not with "Linux the system", how 99% of the world uses the > > > word "Linux", but with "Linux the kernel", the specific piece of > > > software available on kernel.org. > > > > > > -- > > > Larry GarfieldAIM: LOLG42 > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > > > > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > > > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an > > > idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps > > > it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > > > possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of > > > it." -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Automounter in KDE
Ah. So you think kernel developers should drop the multiuser OS theory. Interesting point. You may want to give DOS a try. br. Chr. On Thursday 11 August 2005 20:58, serja wrote: > read carefully - I wrote: "Linux kernel" not Linux OS :) > 99,9% of GNU software build around the Linux kernel, so those applications > will be useless without Linux kernel. > Everything depend on developers from kernel.org. If they finally drop the > multiuser OS theory, then probably things will change. > > --- Original message --- > From: Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE > Date: 11 Август 2005 20:45 > > On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:22 pm, serja wrote: > > > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, > > > > sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the > > > > 1970s, that's not going to change. > > > > > > but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. > > > And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. > > > > I won't argue the first point. I was merely clarifying that the problem is > > not with "Linux the system", how 99% of the world uses the word "Linux", > > but with "Linux the kernel", the specific piece of software available on > > kernel.org. > > > > -- > > Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > > possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." > > -- Thomas Jefferson > >
Re: Automounter in KDE
read carefully - I wrote: "Linux kernel" not Linux OS :) 99,9% of GNU software build around the Linux kernel, so those applications will be useless without Linux kernel. Everything depend on developers from kernel.org. If they finally drop the multiuser OS theory, then probably things will change. --- Original message --- From: Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 20:45 > On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:22 pm, serja wrote: > > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, > > > sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the > > > 1970s, that's not going to change. > > > > but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. > > And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. > > I won't argue the first point. I was merely clarifying that the problem is > not with "Linux the system", how 99% of the world uses the word "Linux", > but with "Linux the kernel", the specific piece of software available on > kernel.org. > > -- > Larry GarfieldAIM: LOLG42 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." > -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:22 pm, serja wrote: > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, > > sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the > > 1970s, that's not going to change. > > but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. > And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. I won't argue the first point. I was merely clarifying that the problem is not with "Linux the system", how 99% of the world uses the word "Linux", but with "Linux the kernel", the specific piece of software available on kernel.org. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
> GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, sucks > for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the 1970s, > that's not going to change. but the problem is that GNU is nothing without Linux kernel. And things with removable media should be done on kernel side. --- Original message --- From: Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 20:08 > On Thursday 11 August 2005 09:13 am, serja wrote: > > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > > > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an > > > easy-to-understand resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting > > > philosophy? > > > > I think developers from kernel.org not really support the idea of > > automounting and they definitely not support the unplugging / hardware > > eject of removable media thingies without umounting them. > > And that, of course, is the core problem. Yes, removing stuff without > unmounting it is a problem that is not solved without eliminating > write-behind cache. Fine. But when I plug in my multi-slot USB card > reader, it should automatically create logical, consistent names for each > slot independently and then mount them as needed. There is, in 2005, > simply no excuse for that to not work automatically. > > Yet, when I do so, I have to first spend an hour with udev's various > not-well-named-or-documented tools to figure out what the heck it is and > how to identify it, then write a udev rule that I hope works. Then when I > insert a card, I first have to unplug and replug the reader so that it > notices (no joke), then wait about 15 seconds while nothing happens, then > try to mount the device (generally using KDE 3.4's media:/ IOSlave these > days, but whatever). That's about a paragraph too long. And that's on > Debian with KDE. Fedora with Gnome, SuSE with fvwm, it would likely be > different. > > This is very much a hardware-software interface issue, which means it's a > kernel issue. Whether the tool itself is in user space or kernel space > architecturally, the fault for removable media still sucking lies with the > kernel team. This is a problem they should be solving, not punting to a > half-dozen half-baked, incompatible bandaids. (And yes, that's what even > media:/ is.) > > GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, sucks > for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the 1970s, > that's not going to change. > > -- > Larry GarfieldAIM: LOLG42 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 > > "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of > exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, > which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to > himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the > possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." > -- Thomas Jefferson
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 09:13 am, serja wrote: > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > I think developers from kernel.org not really support the idea of > automounting and they definitely not support the unplugging / hardware > eject of removable media thingies without umounting them. And that, of course, is the core problem. Yes, removing stuff without unmounting it is a problem that is not solved without eliminating write-behind cache. Fine. But when I plug in my multi-slot USB card reader, it should automatically create logical, consistent names for each slot independently and then mount them as needed. There is, in 2005, simply no excuse for that to not work automatically. Yet, when I do so, I have to first spend an hour with udev's various not-well-named-or-documented tools to figure out what the heck it is and how to identify it, then write a udev rule that I hope works. Then when I insert a card, I first have to unplug and replug the reader so that it notices (no joke), then wait about 15 seconds while nothing happens, then try to mount the device (generally using KDE 3.4's media:/ IOSlave these days, but whatever). That's about a paragraph too long. And that's on Debian with KDE. Fedora with Gnome, SuSE with fvwm, it would likely be different. This is very much a hardware-software interface issue, which means it's a kernel issue. Whether the tool itself is in user space or kernel space architecturally, the fault for removable media still sucking lies with the kernel team. This is a problem they should be solving, not punting to a half-dozen half-baked, incompatible bandaids. (And yes, that's what even media:/ is.) GNU doesn't have a problem with removable media. Linux, the kernel, sucks for removable media. And until the kernel devs get out of the 1970s, that's not going to change. -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
BTW I haven't tested it with usb devices (actually my usb scanner waren't detected by it), but with removable media ivman work just fine. --- Original message --- From: serja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 16:13 > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > I think developers from kernel.org not really support the idea of > automounting and they definitely not support the unplugging / hardware > eject of removable media thingies without umounting them. > > --- Original message --- > From: Theo Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org > Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE > Date: 11 Август 2005 09:51 > > > Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > > ... > > > > > How about mount-on-demand? > > > > ... > > > > > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > > > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > > > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > > > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > > > > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > > > the majority of the population (;-)). > > > > It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently > > happening transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I > > would like to have a system where either everything is mounted and > > umounted manually or everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted > > and umounted (like the old Macintosh System with SCSI). I'm using Sarge > > and it doesn't automatically mount USB devices when you plug them in and > > I can manually mount some devices, but not others (I would happily enrole > > in any "I hate USB" club). I've tried SuSE 9.1: this is dreadful, > > automatically but unreliably mounting stuff unter strange names and > > leaving old zombie folders about in /mnt. > > > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > > > Theo Schmidt
Re: Automounter in KDE
> This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? I think developers from kernel.org not really support the idea of automounting and they definitely not support the unplugging / hardware eject of removable media thingies without umounting them. --- Original message --- From: Theo Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 11 Август 2005 09:51 > Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > ... > > > How about mount-on-demand? > > ... > > > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > > the majority of the population (;-)). > > It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently > happening transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I would > like to have a system where either everything is mounted and umounted > manually or everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted and umounted > (like the old Macintosh System with SCSI). I'm using Sarge and it doesn't > automatically mount USB devices when you plug them in and I can manually > mount some devices, but not others (I would happily enrole in any "I hate > USB" club). I've tried SuSE 9.1: this is dreadful, automatically but > unreliably mounting stuff unter strange names and leaving old zombie > folders about in /mnt. > > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could > somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand > resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > Theo Schmidt
Re: Automounter in KDE
Jody Noury wrote: > Hi, > Theo Schmidt a écrit : > [...] > >> This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could >> somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand >> resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? > > I'm using usb key and camera (mass storage mode), they are seen as > /dev/sdAX where A is a letter from a to z depend of number of your > plugged devices and X a number corresponding to your partition (often 1). > > For exemple If I plug an usb key, the command: cat /proc/partitions show > a /dev/sda1 device, if I plug another key or a camera, th e device will > be /dev/sdb1 and so on. > > I've this lines in my /etc/fstab > > /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 > /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 > /dev/sdc1 /mnt/sdc1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 > /dev/sdd1 /mnt/sdd1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 > > And I have created 4 icons on the desktop so that I can mount, umount > keys and cameras. > > This is relatively simple to configure and works relatively well. > The problem is that kernel reminds sometime the name of the device, If > you first plug a key, its device will be sda1, then if you deplug it and > plug another one, It could be sdb1 or sda1 ... Easy enough to fix with udev... Find some unique key for the device with udevinfo (USB keys have product names and serial numbers, I would expect cameras to have the same), create a udev rule assigning a synonym such as "usbkey" or "canonXY", and change your fstab to mount /dev/usbkey and /dev/canonXY. -- derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thursday 11 August 2005 09:51, Theo Schmidt wrote: > Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > I would > like to have a system where either everything is mounted and umounted > manually or everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted and umounted > (like the old Macintosh System with SCSI). I achieve reliable auto-mounting (though not umounting) using this script. It's more a proof-of-concept and still lacks many features, but maybe someone is interested: http://vader.dnsalias.com/~roman/files/automounter.tar.bz2 Regards Roman -- Why do geeks get Halloween and Christmas confused? Because 31 oct == 25 dec -- seen on the net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Theo Schmidt wrote: > Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: > ... > > How about mount-on-demand? > ... > > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > > the majority of the population (;-)). > > It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently happening > transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I use mtools for USB storage devices. No mounting/unmounting is needed at all with this approach, and it is robust against sudden removal of the media. In my ~/.mtoolsrc: # External USB floppy drive a: file="/dev/sda" # USB Pendrive drive u: file="/dev/sda1" Then I can use "mdir a:", "mcopy file u:", etc, in the shell. In KDE, I can use the "floppy:/" ioslave to access these. -- -| Bob Hauck -| A proud member of the reality-based community. -| http://www.haucks.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Hi, Theo Schmidt a écrit : [...] > This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could somebody > sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand resource on > present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? I'm using usb key and camera (mass storage mode), they are seen as /dev/sdAX where A is a letter from a to z depend of number of your plugged devices and X a number corresponding to your partition (often 1). For exemple If I plug an usb key, the command: cat /proc/partitions show a /dev/sda1 device, if I plug another key or a camera, th e device will be /dev/sdb1 and so on. I've this lines in my /etc/fstab /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 /dev/sdc1 /mnt/sdc1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 /dev/sdd1 /mnt/sdd1 vfat noauto,users,exec 0 0 And I have created 4 icons on the desktop so that I can mount, umount keys and cameras. This is relatively simple to configure and works relatively well. The problem is that kernel reminds sometime the name of the device, If you first plug a key, its device will be sda1, then if you deplug it and plug another one, It could be sdb1 or sda1 ... Hope it helps you. Jody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 20.45 schrieb Tony Godshall: ... > How about mount-on-demand? ... > I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. > That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, > which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- > technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. > > The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass > the majority of the population (;-)). It certainly includes me. I am rather confused about the apparently happening transition from manual mounting to automounting in Linux. I would like to have a system where either everything is mounted and umounted manually or everything is automatically and *reliably* mounted and umounted (like the old Macintosh System with SCSI). I'm using Sarge and it doesn't automatically mount USB devices when you plug them in and I can manually mount some devices, but not others (I would happily enrole in any "I hate USB" club). I've tried SuSE 9.1: this is dreadful, automatically but unreliably mounting stuff unter strange names and leaving old zombie folders about in /mnt. This has been a long thread which has left me none the wiser. Could somebody sum up the present conclusions or point to an easy-to-understand resource on present KDE, Debian or Linux mounting philosophy? Theo Schmidt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Tuesday 09 August 2005 11:18, serja wrote:
give it a shot, it's really kinda cool. I use it for data recovery and for
making partition images. I've also used to hard-disk install script on a
laptop.
Chris
> > > Kanotix
>
> what kanotix is?
>
> --- Original message ---
> From: Alex Nordstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE
> Date: 9 Август 2005 10:31
>
> > On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:51, C. Hurschler wrote:
> > > Kanotix mounts and places links to USB devices on the KDE desktop
> > > just as one would expect, so it is possible (why shouldn't it be?).
> > > When the device is removed the link dissapears from the desktop. I
> > > don't know what packages or scripts or whatever are used to achieve
> > > this.
> >
> > This, apparently:
> >
> > http://wiki.kanotix.net/CoMa.php?CoMa=usb-storage
> >
> > Note the comment:
> >
> > The script mounts every (useful) partition of your device and
> > creates icons on your KDE desktop. If you pull the stick (or
> > camera) the device is unmounted with "umount -l" ("lazy", because
> > the device is already pulled) and the icon disappears.
> >
> > *Don't forget to do a sync before (or right mouseclick on the icon
> > -> action -> save changes)!*
> >
> > I wonder how well-documented that is in the Kanotix distribution,
> > because I saw several posts on the Kanotix forums:
> >
> > http://forum.kanotix.net/
> >
> > which appeared to be result of users being unaware of their hardware's
> > missing telepathy circuitry.
> >
> > A couple of posters here too seem to be overlooking that simple fact
> > that you can *never* get the advantages of buffered I/O (speed and
> > extended hardware life) *and* expect the convenience of yanking
> > rw-enabled drives out at your leisure without potentially incurring
> > data loss. That's why working with floppy disks is generally somewhat
> > faster under most Linux distributions than under MS Windows, but
> > requiring manual unmounting.
--
Dr.-Ing. C. Hurschler
Bodenstedtstr. 13
30173 Hannover
0172-5940909
Re: Automounter in KDE
> > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if > > you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing > > this. > I think this choice shouldn't be made by you or by me, but by every single > user. And i think locking the drives by default is ok. How about mount-on-demand? > > Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device if > > you unplug it. > And how's that supposed to work? Once you removed the stick it's already > away. > Your computer cannot finish pending operations like clearing it's buffers. > You HAVE to umount it before removing. Even on other Systems that's the way > to go. > Well, you could mount the drive in sync-mode (beginning with 2.6.12 it should > also work with FAT. But remember we're talking about flash-drives. They only > can be flashed limited times. If you use sync, every operation will > immediatley trigger writing the data to the usb-stick. Your USB-Stick might > become unusable much earlier. I find it best to mount writable removables with -o sync. That way apps finish saving when they appear to finish saving, which limits damage by novice users and dont-care-about-the- technical-details users and old-hand-who-just-forgot users. The union of the above sets of users, oddly, appears to encompass the majority of the population (;-)). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Tuesday 09 August 2005 17:31, Derek Broughton wrote: > I don't _know_ what KDE can or cannot do, so I haven't taken part in this > discussion, but I _do_ know that everything gets mounted as needed, when > needed. As long as you're using KDE-Apps, you're right (I already said that earlier in this thread). But try saving to a USB-Stick out of a non-KDE-App (like OpenOffice.org) without clicking the icon on the desktop, first. Roman -- If only you and dead people can read hex, how many people can read hex? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
C. Hurschler wrote: > I'm finding this discussion somwhat frustrating because no one seems to > be > able to say clearly what KDE can or can't do. I also find it strange that > this doesn't "just work" since it is somthing that just about every > desktop > user needs to do every day. Half of the problem is that, for most of us, it _does_ just work. I want to write a CD, I start up K3b, I write to it. I want to read it, I put a CD in there and click on the desktop icon that just appeared - the appropriate music or data applications will start. I want to access a USB drive - I plug it in and click on the icon that appears on my desktop. I don't _know_ what KDE can or cannot do, so I haven't taken part in this discussion, but I _do_ know that everything gets mounted as needed, when needed. -- derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
Thanks. Because first I thought this is a kind of automounter tool :) --- Original message --- From: Jody Noury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 9 Август 2005 11:38 > Hi, > > serja a écrit : > >>>Kanotix > > > > what kanotix is? > > Kanotix is a Knoppix's sister :) > > Jody
Re: Automounter in KDE
Hi, serja a écrit : >>>Kanotix > > what kanotix is? Kanotix is a Knoppix's sister :) Jody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
> > Kanotix
what kanotix is?
--- Original message ---
From: Alex Nordstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE
Date: 9 Август 2005 10:31
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:51, C. Hurschler wrote:
> > Kanotix mounts and places links to USB devices on the KDE desktop
> > just as one would expect, so it is possible (why shouldn't it be?).
> > When the device is removed the link dissapears from the desktop. I
> > don't know what packages or scripts or whatever are used to achieve
> > this.
>
> This, apparently:
>
> http://wiki.kanotix.net/CoMa.php?CoMa=usb-storage
>
> Note the comment:
>
> The script mounts every (useful) partition of your device and
> creates icons on your KDE desktop. If you pull the stick (or
> camera) the device is unmounted with "umount -l" ("lazy", because
> the device is already pulled) and the icon disappears.
>
> *Don't forget to do a sync before (or right mouseclick on the icon
> -> action -> save changes)!*
>
> I wonder how well-documented that is in the Kanotix distribution,
> because I saw several posts on the Kanotix forums:
>
> http://forum.kanotix.net/
>
> which appeared to be result of users being unaware of their hardware's
> missing telepathy circuitry.
>
> A couple of posters here too seem to be overlooking that simple fact
> that you can *never* get the advantages of buffered I/O (speed and
> extended hardware life) *and* expect the convenience of yanking
> rw-enabled drives out at your leisure without potentially incurring
> data loss. That's why working with floppy disks is generally somewhat
> faster under most Linux distributions than under MS Windows, but
> requiring manual unmounting.
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:51, C. Hurschler wrote:
> Kanotix mounts and places links to USB devices on the KDE desktop
> just as one would expect, so it is possible (why shouldn't it be?).
> When the device is removed the link dissapears from the desktop. I
> don't know what packages or scripts or whatever are used to achieve
> this.
This, apparently:
http://wiki.kanotix.net/CoMa.php?CoMa=usb-storage
Note the comment:
The script mounts every (useful) partition of your device and
creates icons on your KDE desktop. If you pull the stick (or
camera) the device is unmounted with "umount -l" ("lazy", because
the device is already pulled) and the icon disappears.
*Don't forget to do a sync before (or right mouseclick on the icon
-> action -> save changes)!*
I wonder how well-documented that is in the Kanotix distribution,
because I saw several posts on the Kanotix forums:
http://forum.kanotix.net/
which appeared to be result of users being unaware of their hardware's
missing telepathy circuitry.
A couple of posters here too seem to be overlooking that simple fact
that you can *never* get the advantages of buffered I/O (speed and
extended hardware life) *and* expect the convenience of yanking
rw-enabled drives out at your leisure without potentially incurring
data loss. That's why working with floppy disks is generally somewhat
faster under most Linux distributions than under MS Windows, but
requiring manual unmounting.
--
Alex Nordstrom
http://lx.n3.net/
Please do not CC me in followups; I am subscribed to debian-kde.
pgp8MqXLzhqku.pgp
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Re: Automounter in KDE
> I'm finding this discussion somwhat frustrating because no one seems to be > able to say clearly what KDE can or can't do. It's probably because KDE has too many configurable options and relatively often with some of them it's not clear what they actually do, how they should work and how they should be setup. Some things work in one distribution but not work in another one, or sometimes they work and sometimes just stop working and therefore it is very hard to understand is it bug in one distribution or just an improovement in another one. However for example GNOME gives nearly the same everywhere (of course it doesn't mean that it's better than KDE). Maybe it fixed in KDE 3.4.X, but in KDE 3.3.2. there is a bug (you can find it at the KDE'S bug tracking system) which block the eject of CD's and the only way to do that is login as root and do eject as root, or disable doorlocking in sysconfig files. --- Original message --- From: "C. Hurschler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 8 Август 2005 22:51 > I'm finding this discussion somwhat frustrating because no one seems to be > able to say clearly what KDE can or can't do. I also find it strange that > this doesn't "just work" since it is somthing that just about every desktop > user needs to do every day. Here are some observations I´ve made: > > Kanotix mounts and places links to USB devices on the KDE desktop just as > one would expect, so it is possible (why shouldn't it be?). When the > device is removed the link dissapears from the desktop. I don't know what > packages or scripts or whatever are used to achieve this. > > I also noticed that on my Sarge system with KDE 3.4.1 I can add the applet > "Storage Media" to my Panel. When I insert a cdrom it appears as an Icon > in the Panel. I can open the cdrom in a Konqueror window or eject it (this > works contraty to what another poster says). I have the following line in > my fstab: > > /dev/hdc/media/cdromiso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 > > I run usbmount so I don't have any sdxx entries in fstab. I run fstab > becaue I gave up on trying to create an fstab entry for every possible > combination of partition and device that I encounter. When I plug in a USB > device one or two USB Icons are place in Panel by "Storage Media". I can > open the device in a Konqueror window, but if I try to "Safely Remove" the > device I get some error about no line being present in fstab for the > device. I have a link to sync on my desktop so that I can unplug the > devices safely (recommended in the mountusb documentation). I`d kind of > like the USB devices to work like the CDROM does i.e. with a remove feature > that works. > > Regds, > > Chris > > On Monday 08 August 2005 17:11, Roman Kreisel wrote: > > On Monday 08 August 2005 14:59, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:Pa > > > > > Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. > > > > Which one? There several, i tested some of them and none of them fitted > > my needs. > > > > > Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you > > > couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the > > > device was mounted. > > > > /proc/sys/dev/cdrom/lock > > But remember you're brutally removing the Disc. You don't know how the > > applications will behave, which still access the disc. It might even > > possible (i'm not sure right now), that the disc remains mounted. > > > > > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > > > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best > > > if you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in > > > doing this. > > > > I think this choice shouldn't be made by you or by me, but by every > > single user. And i think locking the drives by default is ok. > > > > > Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device > > > if you unplug it. > > > > And how's that supposed to work? Once you removed the stick it's already > > away. Your computer cannot finish pending operations like clearing it's > > buffers. You HAVE to umount it before removing. Even on other Systems > > that's the way to go. > > > > Well, you could mount the drive in sync-mode (beginning with 2.6.12 it > > should also work with FAT. But remember we're talking about flash-drives. > > They only can be flashed limited times. If you use sync, every operation > > will immediatley trigger writing the data to the usb-stick. Your > > USB-Stick might become unusable much earlier. > > > > > Anders > > > > Regards > > Roman
Re: Automounter in KDE
I'm finding this discussion somwhat frustrating because no one seems to be able to say clearly what KDE can or can't do. I also find it strange that this doesn't "just work" since it is somthing that just about every desktop user needs to do every day. Here are some observations I´ve made: Kanotix mounts and places links to USB devices on the KDE desktop just as one would expect, so it is possible (why shouldn't it be?). When the device is removed the link dissapears from the desktop. I don't know what packages or scripts or whatever are used to achieve this. I also noticed that on my Sarge system with KDE 3.4.1 I can add the applet "Storage Media" to my Panel. When I insert a cdrom it appears as an Icon in the Panel. I can open the cdrom in a Konqueror window or eject it (this works contraty to what another poster says). I have the following line in my fstab: /dev/hdc/media/cdromiso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 I run usbmount so I don't have any sdxx entries in fstab. I run fstab becaue I gave up on trying to create an fstab entry for every possible combination of partition and device that I encounter. When I plug in a USB device one or two USB Icons are place in Panel by "Storage Media". I can open the device in a Konqueror window, but if I try to "Safely Remove" the device I get some error about no line being present in fstab for the device. I have a link to sync on my desktop so that I can unplug the devices safely (recommended in the mountusb documentation). I`d kind of like the USB devices to work like the CDROM does i.e. with a remove feature that works. Regds, Chris On Monday 08 August 2005 17:11, Roman Kreisel wrote: > On Monday 08 August 2005 14:59, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:Pa > > Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. > > Which one? There several, i tested some of them and none of them fitted my > needs. > > > Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you > > couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the device > > was mounted. > > /proc/sys/dev/cdrom/lock > But remember you're brutally removing the Disc. You don't know how the > applications will behave, which still access the disc. It might even > possible (i'm not sure right now), that the disc remains mounted. > > > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if > > you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing > > this. > > I think this choice shouldn't be made by you or by me, but by every single > user. And i think locking the drives by default is ok. > > > Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device if > > you unplug it. > > And how's that supposed to work? Once you removed the stick it's already > away. Your computer cannot finish pending operations like clearing it's > buffers. You HAVE to umount it before removing. Even on other Systems > that's the way to go. > > Well, you could mount the drive in sync-mode (beginning with 2.6.12 it > should also work with FAT. But remember we're talking about flash-drives. > They only can be flashed limited times. If you use sync, every operation > will immediatley trigger writing the data to the usb-stick. Your USB-Stick > might become unusable much earlier. > > > Anders > > Regards > Roman -- C. Hurschler
Re: Automounter in KDE
Roman Kreisel wrote: > afaik KDE _IS_ really missing it. For KDE-Applications it doesn't really > matter. If they access media:/cdrom for example, it's getting mounted > automatically by KDE. But "normal" apps, like OpenOffice.org, which don't > use KDE-IOSlaves but access /media/cdrom, won't see anything until you > mounted it manually. Chmm, are you sure that KDE-Application are all-happy? Can anybody explain me, how to connect digikam to media:/usbdrive (or whatever is the correct name)? I really hate mounting and unmounting /mnt/kamera... Best, Matej -- Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/blog/ GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
I've downloaded the tarball and installed it. First result of testing: very impressive. Thanks for the tip. I have one question: I want link ivman executable to my .kde/Autostart. If I restart KDE is ivman will be killed when exiting KDE to avoid loading one more ivman when I start KDE for the next time? --- Original message --- From: Josep Febrer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 8 Август 2005 16:03 > A Dilluns 08 Agost 2005 15:20, serja va escriure: > > Another option is to use ivman, on http://ivman.sourceforge.net/, which is > a HAL frontend that can automatically mount devices and start some programs > when you insert a dvd or and audiocd, etc. > > Josep
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Monday 08 August 2005 14:59, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote: > Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. Which one? There several, i tested some of them and none of them fitted my needs. > > Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you > couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the device > was mounted. /proc/sys/dev/cdrom/lock But remember you're brutally removing the Disc. You don't know how the applications will behave, which still access the disc. It might even possible (i'm not sure right now), that the disc remains mounted. > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if > you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing > this. I think this choice shouldn't be made by you or by me, but by every single user. And i think locking the drives by default is ok. > > Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device if > you unplug it. And how's that supposed to work? Once you removed the stick it's already away. Your computer cannot finish pending operations like clearing it's buffers. You HAVE to umount it before removing. Even on other Systems that's the way to go. Well, you could mount the drive in sync-mode (beginning with 2.6.12 it should also work with FAT. But remember we're talking about flash-drives. They only can be flashed limited times. If you use sync, every operation will immediatley trigger writing the data to the usb-stick. Your USB-Stick might become unusable much earlier. > > Anders Regards Roman -- The next statement is not true. The previous statement is true.
Re: Automounter in KDE
Thanks. And is there a deb package? --- Original message --- From: Josep Febrer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 8 Август 2005 16:03 > A Dilluns 08 Agost 2005 15:20, serja va escriure: > > Another option is to use ivman, on http://ivman.sourceforge.net/, which is > a HAL frontend that can automatically mount devices and start some programs > when you insert a dvd or and audiocd, etc. > > Josep
Re: Automounter in KDE
A Dilluns 08 Agost 2005 15:20, serja va escriure: Another option is to use ivman, on http://ivman.sourceforge.net/, which is a HAL frontend that can automatically mount devices and start some programs when you insert a dvd or and audiocd, etc. Josep -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
> Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. But the supermount kernel module can't start the required applications like how it work in GNOME (insert audio-cd and the gnome-cd is launched, dvd - totem). And in gnome it definitely done without kernel-modules and in Mandrake's kde too. And for example Mandrake don't even use supermount for cdroms, only for floppy. > Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you > couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the device > was mounted. Put the following line in your /etc/sysctl.conf dev.cdrom.lock=0 and the door won't be blocked anymore, but if you remove the cd when some filemanagers or other applications read it, those applications will still think that the cdrom is mounted and finally you'll need to restart X or even the whole system to get your cdrom work again. > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if > you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing > this. Of course all this cdrom and other media mounting/umounting is still far from being perfect. And in long time terms it can't be explained with multiuser OS theory. --- Original message --- From: Anders Ellenshøj Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 8 Август 2005 14:59 > On Monday 08 August 2005 13:19, Roman Kreisel wrote: > > On Monday 08 August 2005 07:19, serja wrote: > > > I doubt it configurable through gui in kde, because kde don't have any > > > options to configure it with the exception that when you enable the > > > device's icons at your desktop it should display a mounted cd-rom's, > > > etc. icons at the desktop and in most distributions I've used before it > > > worked - after inserting an CD it was automatically mounted. Because if > > > gnome has this feature I doubt that kde hasn't it. But the question is > > > how to make it work. > > > > afaik KDE _IS_ really missing it. For KDE-Applications it doesn't really > > matter. If they access media:/cdrom for example, it's getting mounted > > automatically by KDE. But "normal" apps, like OpenOffice.org, which don't > > use KDE-IOSlaves but access /media/cdrom, won't see anything until you > > mounted it manually. > > Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. > > Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you > couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the device > was mounted. > > The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which > resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if > you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing > this. > > Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device if > you unplug it. > > Anders > > -- > - Debian/Unstable - KDE 3.4.1 - KMail 1.8.1 -
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Monday 08 August 2005 13:19, Roman Kreisel wrote: > On Monday 08 August 2005 07:19, serja wrote: > > I doubt it configurable through gui in kde, because kde don't have any > > options to configure it with the exception that when you enable the > > device's icons at your desktop it should display a mounted cd-rom's, etc. > > icons at the desktop and in most distributions I've used before it worked > > - after inserting an CD it was automatically mounted. Because if gnome > > has this feature I doubt that kde hasn't it. But the question is how to > > make it work. > > afaik KDE _IS_ really missing it. For KDE-Applications it doesn't really > matter. If they access media:/cdrom for example, it's getting mounted > automatically by KDE. But "normal" apps, like OpenOffice.org, which don't > use KDE-IOSlaves but access /media/cdrom, won't see anything until you > mounted it manually. Hmm.. I think the kernel automounter should be able to handle this.. Anyway, for me the biggest issue in all this has always been that you couldn't eject a cdrom with the eject button on the drive once the device was mounted. The system should be able to unmount the device regardsless of which resources are using it when you press the eject button. You know best if you want the disk out or not, the system shouldn't restrict you in doing this. Same thing with usb storage. The system should auto-unmount the device if you unplug it. Anders -- - Debian/Unstable - KDE 3.4.1 - KMail 1.8.1 - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Monday 08 August 2005 07:19, serja wrote: > I doubt it configurable through gui in kde, because kde don't have any > options to configure it with the exception that when you enable the > device's icons at your desktop it should display a mounted cd-rom's, etc. > icons at the desktop and in most distributions I've used before it worked - > after inserting an CD it was automatically mounted. Because if gnome has > this feature I doubt that kde hasn't it. But the question is how to make it > work. afaik KDE _IS_ really missing it. For KDE-Applications it doesn't really matter. If they access media:/cdrom for example, it's getting mounted automatically by KDE. But "normal" apps, like OpenOffice.org, which don't use KDE-IOSlaves but access /media/cdrom, won't see anything until you mounted it manually. KDE 3.4 now has the ability to show devices in media:/ which are just inserted (USB-Sticks, i guess also Firewire-Devices), but it still doesn't mount them automatically. When i first saw gnome-volume-manager, i wrote a python-script which does the job. But since i had to import the whole gtk-thing just to get the mainloop (which is needed, if you want to use dbus) i gave the whole thing up. The initial version is still working fine on 2 of my machines, but it lacks many functions such as a GUI or umounting by mouseclick. If anyone is interested in creating an automounter based on hal, dbus and pmount, which isn't depending on KDE, Gnome or any other WM (or X11 at all!), please contact me, i'd really like to contribute. Doing the job totally by myself is not possible, since i still lack real programming-skills. Regards Roman -- Why do geeks get Halloween and Christmas confused? Because 31 oct == 25 dec -- seen on the net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
I doubt it configurable through gui in kde, because kde don't have any options to configure it with the exception that when you enable the device's icons at your desktop it should display a mounted cd-rom's, etc. icons at the desktop and in most distributions I've used before it worked - after inserting an CD it was automatically mounted. Because if gnome has this feature I doubt that kde hasn't it. But the question is how to make it work. --- Original message --- From: Roman Kreisel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 7 Август 2005 21:11 > On Sunday 07 August 2005 20:05, Martin F. Hohenberg wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 7. August 2005 19:10 schrieb serja: > > Works fine for me on Sarge with the alioth-Packages. What kernel do you > > use? > > Tell me if i'm wrong, but afaik KDE doesn't mount the media automatically. > It just offers a button in the media:/-ioslave to mount it. > Or is the behaviour configurable? > > Regards > Roman > > -- > (2b) || !(2b)
Re: Automounter in KDE
On Sunday 07 August 2005 20:05, Martin F. Hohenberg wrote: > Am Sonntag, 7. August 2005 19:10 schrieb serja: > Works fine for me on Sarge with the alioth-Packages. What kernel do you > use? Tell me if i'm wrong, but afaik KDE doesn't mount the media automatically. It just offers a button in the media:/-ioslave to mount it. Or is the behaviour configurable? Regards Roman -- (2b) || !(2b) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Automounter in KDE
kernel 2.6.8 (official from Sarge) and KDE 3.3.2 from Sarge too. --- Original message --- From: "Martin F. Hohenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Automounter in KDE Date: 7 Август 2005 20:05 > Am Sonntag, 7. August 2005 19:10 schrieb serja: > > ... in KDE it doesn't work even when the kde's mountwatch daemon is > > active and the devices icons are allowed at the desktop. I think > > something not right here, because for example in Mandrake it work just > > fine. > > Works fine for me on Sarge with the alioth-Packages. What kernel do you > use?
Re: Automounter in KDE
Am Sonntag, 7. August 2005 19:10 schrieb serja: > ... in KDE it doesn't work even when the kde's mountwatch daemon is active > and the devices icons are allowed at the desktop. I think something not > right here, because for example in Mandrake it work just fine. Works fine for me on Sarge with the alioth-Packages. What kernel do you use? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
