Re: When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
Alle Monday 13 April 2009, Mark Purcell ha scritto: > On Saturday 11 April 2009 19:21:11 Arthur Marsh wrote: > > > upstream. Takes me about 3-6 minutes per bug. Because that is what > > > Debian is about. Lots of people, like you, doing a little bit of work > > > when they have some spare time. > [...] > > > So with your next spare 3 minutes, look at the BTS, check if a bug is > > > still relevant, forward it upstream, and mark it as forwarded in the BTS. > > > > > > Mark > > > > If you can show me how to forward a bug upstream in 3 minutes, I'd be > > more than willing to do so (-:. > > Started Mon Apr 13 20:20:49 EST 2009 > > apt-get install > apt-get install plasma-widget-lancelot > > Add widget. > > Right click lancelot - about > Howto report bugs click http://bugs.kde.org > Mon Apr 13 20:23:43 EST 2009 > > Click Report New Bug > Select Debian Unstable & KDE 4.2.2 > Copy and paste from original email from this thread. > Bug filed: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189520 > Mon Apr 13 20:26:59 EST 2009 > > six minutes. > > Lets see what upstream do with it now ;-) > > Mark Hehe, I was discussing with the author about this bug some day ago, but it's good that now he has an official request. What I mean is that I have understood the whole point of reporting bugs belonging to upstream directly with Authors. For those who may concern, in lancelot Author's opinion, this bug belongs to kdelibs. Valerio
Re: When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
On Monday 13 April 2009 20:30:29 Mark Purcell wrote: > Bug filed: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189520 > Mon Apr 13 20:26:59 EST 2009 > > six minutes. > > Lets see what upstream do with it now ;-) Mon Apr 13 20:56:57 EST 2009 Hey look I have a response from upstream within 30 minutes. No this hasn't been staged. I have never used Lancelot before and never had any contact with Ivan before. Valerio reported a problem on Wednesday in debian-kde. Had he reported to debian bug tracking system it would still be sitting there and wouldn't yet be forwarded. Had he reported directly upstream upstream, anyone else using lancelot could be aware of the issue. Around ten people replied to the email on debian-kde, but no one until now has forwarded the issue upstream. Come on people, this particular issue needed to be forwarded upstream. Lets spend less time talking about what could be done, and actually get on and do it.. Mark -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: [Bug 189520] Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition Date: Monday 13 April 2009 From: Ivan Čukić To: m...@debian.org https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189520 --- Comment #1 from Ivan Čukić 2009-04-13 12:45:13 --- Thanks for posting this here, I'll see what the problem is in a couple of days (I'm a bit busy these last few weeks) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugs.kde.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email --- You are receiving this mail because: --- You reported the bug. --- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
> > What I have found works best is when upstream subscribe to the Debian > > package tracking system (kmymoney2, kile, ...) and then forward PTS email > > into their upstream -dev mailing list. > > What does PTS stand for? Sorry, That is the Package Tracking System, which is an email subscription system which anyone can use to track what is going on with a Debian package: For example lancelot is covered here: http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kdeplasma-addons.html Ivan (as upstream lancelot maintainer) maybe interested in subscribing to the PTS as he would then receive updates as lancelot progresses through Debian and as Debian users report bugs, he would receive them directly. Mark signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
On Saturday 11 April 2009 19:21:11 Arthur Marsh wrote: > > upstream. Takes me about 3-6 minutes per bug. Because that is what > > Debian is about. Lots of people, like you, doing a little bit of work > > when they have some spare time. [...] > > So with your next spare 3 minutes, look at the BTS, check if a bug is > > still relevant, forward it upstream, and mark it as forwarded in the BTS. > > > > Mark > > If you can show me how to forward a bug upstream in 3 minutes, I'd be > more than willing to do so (-:. Started Mon Apr 13 20:20:49 EST 2009 apt-get install apt-get install plasma-widget-lancelot Add widget. Right click lancelot - about Howto report bugs click http://bugs.kde.org Mon Apr 13 20:23:43 EST 2009 Click Report New Bug Select Debian Unstable & KDE 4.2.2 Copy and paste from original email from this thread. Bug filed: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189520 Mon Apr 13 20:26:59 EST 2009 six minutes. Lets see what upstream do with it now ;-) Mark signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
On Saturday 11 April 2009 19:21:11 Arthur Marsh wrote: > [As an aside, HPLIP *DOES NOT EVEN HAVE ANY MAILING LISTS* and this was > a barrier against finding and reporting bugs upstream against HPLIP )-:.] Thanks Arthur, This is a very good point. What I have found works best is when upstream subscribe to the Debian package tracking system (kmymoney2, kile, ...) and then forward PTS email into their upstream -dev mailing list. http://bugs.debian.org/523477 is a great example. Debian users get a reasonable response turn around and bug visibility is apparent to everyone at the right time. Of course getting upstream to subscribe to a number of sources is always a challenge, but presumably they are happy with subscribing to high s/n traffic about their package. I know maduck is doing some work to try and sync bug reports/ patches across distributions. Mark signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
When to report bugs upstream [was Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition]
Hi, I'd like to preface this reply with the statement that I have read this entire thread, and have appreciated the Debian KDE maintainers efforts in general and Mark Purcell in particular. Mark Purcell wrote, on 09/04/09 18:53: On Thursday 09 April 2009 11:14:26 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE people, but other teams as well. If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or compile KDE from source before I file a bug. Boyd, You are going to start seeing a lot more messages like this one when you file a bug with a Debian package. I am the Debian maintainer for the hplip package: ! For end user support please "Ask a question" at the ! upstream hplip support site: ! https://answers.launchpad.net/hplip/+addquestion ! ! If you know that the bug you want to report is in the "upstream" ! code then please file report in the upstream hplip bug tracking system: ! https://launchpad.net/hplip/+filebug ! ! If you feel that the bug is one that other Debian users should ! know about then you are welcome to file a report in the Debian BTS ! as well. Please keep in mind, however, that managing bug reports ! is part of the maintainers' workload. Perhaps KDE packages in Debian that are ports of upstream packages rather than Debian-specific [meta-]packages should include a similar text? By the way, I can only make this suggestion where it will reach Debian KDE maintainers because there is a Debian-KDE user mailing list, debian-kde@lists.debian.org (which I can access via gmane.org as newsgroup gmane.linux.debian.user.kde). It would not be very helpful if I made this suggestion as a bug report against each KDE package in Debian, and reportbug doesn't seem to have a means of reporting a bug against a class of packages like all Debian KDE packages. (I did file bug #523584 about this, but this part of the Debian bug tracking system - making the bug tracking system more efficient - seems to be lacking attention). [As an aside, HPLIP *DOES NOT EVEN HAVE ANY MAILING LISTS* and this was a barrier against finding and reporting bugs upstream against HPLIP )-:.] Why have I done this? Because I am not able to keep on top of the bugs reports, let alone the packaging upstream releases and the like to maintain this and other packages. Also a lot of bugs are just upstream bugs and in most (all) cases it would be a lot better if the end user were talking directly to upstream. Sure if another 5 people wanted to come and help with the bugs then I wouldn't have to do this, but there aren't 5 people helping, so the users reporting the bugs can help and forward the bug to the place where they will get the fastest response to their issues. In a lot of cases the Debian maintain is on the upstream bug tracking list as well and will comment directly there when/ if things are being reported that are directly specific to the Debian package. You don't need to run a different distribution to report a bug upstream. Upstream will happily take reports from any users and will respond to your issues. However if you report another upstream bug to the BTS, the Debian maintainer may not be in a position to forward the bug upstream for many days/ weeks/ months if at all. So the end user doesn't get any feedback on their bug either. Users don't need a 'bug-day' to forward bugs upstream. Anyone can do that at any time and at any stage of the project. I hope you are contributing with every post you are making here to debian-kde and also forwarding a bug upstream. Takes me about 3-6 minutes per bug. Because that is what Debian is about. Lots of people, like you, doing a little bit of work when they have some spare time. After forwarding bugs upstream to the ALSA project, HPLIP, KDE, each requiring registration/username/password one wonders how many upstream packages one can report to. I will report "show-stopper" bugs upstream, but without instructions in the Debian bug tracking system on how to do so (as reportbug provides for), the effort required crosses many users' threshold for bug reporting. I've been happy to change configuration settings, recompile software and even perform a kernel git bisection on a PII-266 to get a bug fixed (thanks to a couple of lines of encouragement from waldi in #debian-kernel), but having to report upstream and getting no response nor any clue as to where in the source code the problem lies (e.g. HPLIP not accepting hyphens in printer names) is discouraging. So with your next spare 3 minutes, look at the BTS, check if a bug is still relevant, forward it upstream, and mark it as forwarded in the BTS. Mark If you can show me how to forwar
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Jueves, 9 de Abril de 2009, Ritesh Raj Sarraf escribió: > Upstream simply tagged it as a backward incompatible major release. And so > did many of the other distributions. Are you sure of this? AFAIK, upstream provided upgrade paths through kconf_update, as always. And if something broke, it was a bug, not a deliberate decision. Of course there is always room for improvement, but I think that the problem is not intention, but lack of time and resources. > As far as bug handling is concerned, I think it is a challenge everywhere. > I file many bug reports upstream and usually nobody even cares to respond > to them, at times. Don't confuse not caring with not having time. :-( -- Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2 http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Modestas Vainius wrote: >> Won't someone please think of the users? > The reason I'm talking with you is because I think of the users. The > reason we try hard to maintain and publish good packages is because we > think of the users. The reason KDE is in Debian is because Debian KDE > maintainers think of the users. Heck, the reason Debian exists is because > Debian developers think of the users. Sure, "users" include developers > themselves, but also all other people who find Debian usable regardless of > (a few) deficiences. I think the Debian KDE Maintainers are doing a pretty good job. For example, I was very delighted, when I saw the announcement about Kaboom. I can't think of any other distribution (or upstream, for that matter), of thinking about the _User's_ data and how they should migrate. Upstream simply tagged it as a backward incompatible major release. And so did many of the other distributions. As far as bug handling is concerned, I think it is a challenge everywhere. I file many bug reports upstream and usually nobody even cares to respond to them, at times. And there can be 2 ways to look at it. 1) Nobody cares - KDE Sucks. 2) They are busy doing something better - Implementing features. Packaging KDE4 was a daunting task. At a time like that, focusing on other things, like bug reports et cetera is of a lower priority for the packagers. As users, we could take care of our bugs. Like the ones we report, when we see them fixed (downstream or upstream), we could mark them accordingly. That saves a lot of time for all. Ritesh -- If possible, Please CC me when replying. I'm not subscribed to the list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904091712.11218.variosin...@gmail.com>, Manolete, ese artista... wrote: >El Jueves 09 Abril 2009 16:46:44 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: >> How is a non-technical Debian user supposed to know if a bug is Debian- >> specific or not without installing a different distribution? > >Asking in upstream forums to see if users of different distributions are > experiencing the same problems? From my common user's point of view it > doesn't seem to me that hard. Sounds reasonable. > I > think users must do some search before flooding Debain mantainers with > bug reports which may be not their fault, and if we don't want to do such > effort, well, we have Kubuntu, Suse and other distros mor > "user-friendly". The current openSUSE policy is to file KDE bugs upstream unless you can confirm they are openSUSE-specific. I find this policy to be a bit unreasonable, and I was under the impression that Debian's was much better. I'm willing to "jump ship" to get away from openSUSE policies I don't agree with, but I'm not willing to do the same w/ Debian. Instead, I intend to help. If wrangling KDE bugs where help is needed, I'll pencil in some time for it this weekend. > This isn't of course an excuse to say that users have to > "obey" mantainers' will unconditionally, but considering the nature of > Debian there should be some equilibrium. I agree. I was harsh, but to make a point. Maintaining a Debian package has certain responsibilities that are fairly well spelled out in policy. But, despite the best of intentions sometimes maintainers cannot meet those responsibilities, through no fault of their own. I'm fine with that, I know I never seem to have the time I need either. I'm not fine with the maintainers saying "Our package/team is special, so we aren't going to accept the same responsibilities." >I repeat: I'm saying this from an "ignorant", and perhaps wrong, ergo > totally humble, point of view. Humility is a virtue that I could use more of at times. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Hello, On 2009 m. April 9 d., Thursday 17:46:44 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > >2) We will probably never forward a new upstream bug reported to the > > Debian BTS to KDE BTS (i.e. open a new bug) and we will not play proxy > > between the user and upstream. > > This is part of being a maintainer. If you aren't willing to do it, you > aren't being a very good maintainer. I think I can live with bad maintainer status then. What's good for small packages, may not work with big ones. > 3c) Make an impassioned plea to get others to do the job. Especially > others that *already* volunteered for that job. Heck, sometimes you make a > bigger impact campaigning for volunteers instead of trying to do it all > yourself. Campaigning is also work. Not everybody is good at compaigning. > Why do you think I don't understand the size of KDE? I do. I am a > developer by trade and I have adventured in the KDE svn repository in > search of the origin of a bug. My current job is porting millions of lines > of code in multiple languages from AIX to Linux. I'm not questioning your professionalism or experience. Just first try doing the job you are demanding others to do (i.e. dealing with Debian bug reports for all KDE packages). > No, it's not. I love the new packages in unstable. I've heard other had > problems upgradings (a few reports from friends and 2 on debian-user), but > it went smooth as silk for me. > > I absolutely do appreciate what they are doing. That doesn't make me > willing to let them shirk the responsibilities of a maintainer. By supervisoring others? Or asking for removal of KDE from Debian? Or what? You need to make compromises sometimes unless you are willing to do the work yourself. > I have the right to air my opinions. I don't have rank or authority in > Debian; I am just a user. Then better pick your words not to trash other people work next time. > If you aren't willing to follow the official documents why should anyone > else? > > If you want official documentation to change, there are established > procedures for that. You shouldn't ignore them or change them by fiat just > because they don't serve your purposes right now. That's the reason those upstream bugs are not closed as soon as they arrive at Debian BTS. But they rot there making BTS hard to find real issues which we could solve. > How is a non-technical Debian user supposed to know if a bug is Debian- > specific or not without installing a different distribution? They know > they got the software from Debian and it is broken, they should be able to > file their bug with Debian. Maintainers should be prepared to forward a > bug if need be. Ask on generic kde forum, on generic kde irc channel or somewhere else first. I'm also talking about OBVIOUS upstream bugs. Btw, Debian ships as much unpatched vanilla KDE as possible. We do not backport features or even fixes for annyoing bugs from KDE trunk or random 3rd party patches. > Won't someone please think of the users? The reason I'm talking with you is because I think of the users. The reason we try hard to maintain and publish _good_ packages is because we think of the users. The reason KDE is in Debian is because Debian KDE maintainers think of the users. Heck, the reason Debian exists is because Debian developers think of the users. Sure, "users" include developers themselves, but also all other people who find Debian usable regardless of (a few) deficiences. -- Modestas Vainius signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Alle Thursday 09 April 2009, Alejandro Exojo ha scritto: > El Jueves, 9 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: > > Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would > > be denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please > > file them all upstream."? > > I maintained two KDE-related packages in Debian, and of course I dealt with > the bugs I received. But if I alone had to deal with the huge number of > reports that a popular KDE module receives, I could simply not do it. Of > course, I could handle the Debian specific problems, or one user from time to > time who did a tiny mistake reporting it on Debian's BTS. > > But not all the users of the package reporting it _on purpose_ as a Debian > bug. It would be nice if I could, though, but I don't think that almost > anyone could do that on their free time. > > > I get my OS from one source, the Debian repositories (and initially the > > Debian cdimage ftp server). I should only need to provide feedback to one > > source: Debian. > > Come on: nobody reports to their ISP the problems of 3rd party websites. And > they don't ask the shop were the bought a Windows box a problem they had with > the software. > > > Maintainers are ultimately responsible for what I receive; > > *NOT* upstream. If you don't have enough time to *maintain* the package, > > don't even bother packaging it. > > You just maintain the package, that is, the work you do, and the software you > write, not the rest. > > -- > Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2 > http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net > > Never thought to start a topic like that... Anyhow, premised that none con be forced to do anything in free software, it's clear that from developers to users we are working altogether to make things better contributing in different ways and to different extents. Discussion has moved around the two poles: on a side there are rules, on the other, practical behaviors. Given that you can demonstrate everything you want by paradoxes like: if all users start filing bugs belonging to upstream to DBTS, blah blah or if you don't do a perfect work, then quit, blah blah. Luckily, bugs are not infinite, users are not brainless (almost), but sorely, developers are too few. Now we must check reality and see if someone can join you in developing and users can be so accurate (at least trained) to understand that a bug belongs to upstream. Boyd has made an harsh comment, but very likely IMHO, without meaning to offend anybody here: taking it personally is beyond what he meant. From my good human experience with Computer Scientists, I can say that harsh comments it's a lifestyle for them, a kind of feature. Generally you don't mind this. Now, please let's find the way to work in common. Valerio
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Jueves 09 Abril 2009 16:46:44 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: > How is a non-technical Debian user supposed to know if a bug is Debian- > specific or not without installing a different distribution? Asking in upstream forums to see if users of different distributions are experiencing the same problems? From my common user's point of view it doesn't seem to me that hard. As Sune, or Modestas, I dont remember, have said, if they had more manpower perhaps some suggestions you make would be factible; but users have to admit that sometimes we demand too much from a group of not so many people who work as much as they can in their spare time, therefore "do it perfectly or you better don't do it" may be a bit harsh demand. I'd admit such dialectics in case Debian were a corporate-mantained distribution which is constantly advertising itself and telling the users "hey, we are cooler than others, use us", but not being this the case I think users must do some search before flooding Debain mantainers with bug reports which may be not their fault, and if we don't want to do such effort, well, we have Kubuntu, Suse and other distros mor "user-friendly". This isn't of course an excuse to say that users have to "obey" mantainers' will unconditionally, but considering the nature of Debian there should be some equilibrium. I repeat: I'm saying this from an "ignorant", and perhaps wrong, ergo totally humble, point of view. Pax et amor , ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904091620.34787@badopi.org>, Alejandro Exojo wrote: >El Jueves, 9 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: >> I get my OS from one source, the Debian repositories (and initially the >> Debian cdimage ftp server). I should only need to provide feedback to one >> source: Debian. > >Come on: nobody reports to their ISP the problems of 3rd party websites. Debian is not like an ISP. They don't simply serve as a medium through which unmodified data passes. Debian maintainers add to and change upstream to make Debian a complete system. If my ISP is routinely, detectably modifying the data I receive from third parties, they better be prepared to receive come calls. >And >they don't ask the shop were the bought a Windows box a problem they had > with the software. Um, yes they do. Often. Or at least they did when I worked for a guy that sold Windows boxes. Dell/Gateway/HP do plenty of end-user support. >> Maintainers are ultimately responsible for what I receive; >> *NOT* upstream. If you don't have enough time to *maintain* the package, >> don't even bother packaging it. > >You just maintain the package, that is, the work you do, and the software > you write, not the rest. Not true. If there's a security bug in a Debian package, it gets fixed even if upstream isn't happy with the way Debian does it. Other bugs should be handled the same way. Upstream is a valuable resource for Debian maintainers, but ultimately they are responsible for what they are providing users. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904091114.11428.modes...@vainius.eu>, Modestas Vainius wrote: >> If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be >> packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports >> from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or >> compile KDE from source before I file a bug. >Well, I will clarify you a few facts now: > >2) We will probably never forward a new upstream bug reported to the Debian >BTS to KDE BTS (i.e. open a new bug) and we will not play proxy between the >user and upstream. This is part of being a maintainer. If you aren't willing to do it, you aren't being a very good maintainer. >3) If you don't like something, you can either: > >3a) do the job in the areas which are lacking in your opinion (the world is >not perfect). But please don't tell everybody else what to do. > >3b) switch to something else where the job is done better. 3c) Make an impassioned plea to get others to do the job. Especially others that *already* volunteered for that job. Heck, sometimes you make a bigger impact campaigning for volunteers instead of trying to do it all yourself. Plus, I'm not going to let you tell me what my choices are. I can determine that myself and take whatever action I feel would be best. >> >As Sune said, it's impossible for the Debian people to handle this, >> No its not. It takes effort. But that effort is required of every Debian >> maintainer. Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would >> be denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please >> file them all upstream."? >KDE is not a 20K source package. KDE is HUGE. Please do some background >research before telling something. Why do you think I don't understand the size of KDE? I do. I am a developer by trade and I have adventured in the KDE svn repository in search of the origin of a bug. My current job is porting millions of lines of code in multiple languages from AIX to Linux. >> I am NOT saying I don't appreciate the effort the maintainers are putting >> forth now. >That's exactly what you are saying. No, it's not. I love the new packages in unstable. I've heard other had problems upgradings (a few reports from friends and 2 on debian-user), but it went smooth as silk for me. I absolutely do appreciate what they are doing. That doesn't make me willing to let them shirk the responsibilities of a maintainer. >> If I could get both my jobs and the development I do for my >> local charity in hand, I'd pitch in and help. But, wrangling bugs is >> *just* *as* *important* as packaging new versions. It may not be quite as >> "sexy", but it makes for better software, not just more of it. >Sorry, but you have no right to tell other volunteers what they have to do > in their free time. You are free to do 3a) though (regularly). I have the right to air my opinions. I don't have rank or authority in Debian; I am just a user. >> According to the official documents, if you open a bug in the DBTS, you >> should not open one upstream, but leave it up to the maintainer. >Yeah, yeah, but you can spin official documents as much as you want. That > BTS page is not more official than me telling you how things work > currently. If you aren't willing to follow the official documents why should anyone else? If you want official documentation to change, there are established procedures for that. You shouldn't ignore them or change them by fiat just because they don't serve your purposes right now. > If you want an upstream bug to be solved, you better report it > to KDE BTS. Or it won't be solved unless another user reports it upstream > (as simple as that). How is a non-technical Debian user supposed to know if a bug is Debian- specific or not without installing a different distribution? They know they got the software from Debian and it is broken, they should be able to file their bug with Debian. Maintainers should be prepared to forward a bug if need be. Won't someone please think of the users? >> Last time I took it on myself to update bugs, I got some fairly stern >> emails indicating that changes need to go through the maintainers, but I >> am willing to help. >So I say, HELP HELP HELP. Nobody is going to object. Will do. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Jueves, 9 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: > Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would > be denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please > file them all upstream."? I maintained two KDE-related packages in Debian, and of course I dealt with the bugs I received. But if I alone had to deal with the huge number of reports that a popular KDE module receives, I could simply not do it. Of course, I could handle the Debian specific problems, or one user from time to time who did a tiny mistake reporting it on Debian's BTS. But not all the users of the package reporting it _on purpose_ as a Debian bug. It would be nice if I could, though, but I don't think that almost anyone could do that on their free time. > I get my OS from one source, the Debian repositories (and initially the > Debian cdimage ftp server). I should only need to provide feedback to one > source: Debian. Come on: nobody reports to their ISP the problems of 3rd party websites. And they don't ask the shop were the bought a Windows box a problem they had with the software. > Maintainers are ultimately responsible for what I receive; > *NOT* upstream. If you don't have enough time to *maintain* the package, > don't even bother packaging it. You just maintain the package, that is, the work you do, and the software you write, not the rest. -- Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2 http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On Thursday 09 April 2009 04:23:41 you wrote: >On Thursday 09 April 2009 11:14:26 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: >> >Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you >> >imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE >> > people, but other teams as well. >> >> If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be >> packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports >> from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or >> compile KDE from source before I file a bug. > >Boyd, > >You are going to start seeing a lot more messages like this one when you > file a bug with a Debian package. I am the Debian maintainer for the hplip > package: > >! For end user support please "Ask a question" at the >! upstream hplip support site: >! https://answers.launchpad.net/hplip/+addquestion >! >! If you know that the bug you want to report is in the "upstream" >! code then please file report in the upstream hplip bug tracking system: >! https://launchpad.net/hplip/+filebug >! >! If you feel that the bug is one that other Debian users should >! know about then you are welcome to file a report in the Debian BTS >! as well. Please keep in mind, however, that managing bug reports >! is part of the maintainers' workload. I find that unfortunate, but clearly acceptable. BTW, for "end user support" you are welcome to point then at debian-user etc. We try and handle what questions we can. >You don't need to run a different distribution to report a bug upstream. >Upstream will happily take reports from any users and will respond to your >issues. How am I supposed to determine if it is non-Debian-specific without running a different distribution or compiling from source? If it's Debian-specific, I'm wasting upstreams time. If it's not, it's still a bug in Debian. Actually, for hard crashes, if I can get a backtrace I know how to figure out if that line of code came from upstream or a Debian patch. I'm not sure the best way to do that for other bugs, but I'll try. >Users don't need a 'bug-day' to forward bugs upstream. Anyone can do that > at any time and at any stage of the project. Last time I tagged a bug without emailing the maintainer and waiting for a reply, I got a stern response from a different DD basically saying "don't do that". But, I'll take this a permission to wrangle a few KDE bugs. Also, "Bug Day"s can help because they get multiple users together with the maintainer(s) and developer(s) so the overlapping fields of knowledge can all be used at once. They also let interested wranglers single-task on bugs for at least a few hours; studies show virtually everyone is more productive when single-tasking than multi-tasking. Still, you don't have to be a maintainer to organize a "Bug Day" as long as you can get one or two to participate. So, the onus is on myself to organize one if I think one would be useful. > I hope you are contributing > with every post you are making here to debian-kde and also forwarding a bug > upstream. Takes me about 3-6 minutes per bug. Because that is what Debian > is about. Lots of people, like you, doing a little bit of work when they > have some spare time. > >So with your next spare 3 minutes, look at the BTS, check if a bug is still >relevant, forward it upstream, and mark it as forwarded in the BTS. Will do. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On Thursday 09 April 2009 11:14:26 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > >Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you > >imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE > > people, but other teams as well. > > If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be > packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports > from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or > compile KDE from source before I file a bug. Boyd, You are going to start seeing a lot more messages like this one when you file a bug with a Debian package. I am the Debian maintainer for the hplip package: ! For end user support please "Ask a question" at the ! upstream hplip support site: ! https://answers.launchpad.net/hplip/+addquestion ! ! If you know that the bug you want to report is in the "upstream" ! code then please file report in the upstream hplip bug tracking system: ! https://launchpad.net/hplip/+filebug ! ! If you feel that the bug is one that other Debian users should ! know about then you are welcome to file a report in the Debian BTS ! as well. Please keep in mind, however, that managing bug reports ! is part of the maintainers' workload. Why have I done this? Because I am not able to keep on top of the bugs reports, let alone the packaging upstream releases and the like to maintain this and other packages. Also a lot of bugs are just upstream bugs and in most (all) cases it would be a lot better if the end user were talking directly to upstream. Sure if another 5 people wanted to come and help with the bugs then I wouldn't have to do this, but there aren't 5 people helping, so the users reporting the bugs can help and forward the bug to the place where they will get the fastest response to their issues. In a lot of cases the Debian maintain is on the upstream bug tracking list as well and will comment directly there when/ if things are being reported that are directly specific to the Debian package. You don't need to run a different distribution to report a bug upstream. Upstream will happily take reports from any users and will respond to your issues. However if you report another upstream bug to the BTS, the Debian maintainer may not be in a position to forward the bug upstream for many days/ weeks/ months if at all. So the end user doesn't get any feedback on their bug either. Users don't need a 'bug-day' to forward bugs upstream. Anyone can do that at any time and at any stage of the project. I hope you are contributing with every post you are making here to debian-kde and also forwarding a bug upstream. Takes me about 3-6 minutes per bug. Because that is what Debian is about. Lots of people, like you, doing a little bit of work when they have some spare time. So with your next spare 3 minutes, look at the BTS, check if a bug is still relevant, forward it upstream, and mark it as forwarded in the BTS. Mark signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Hello, On 2009 m. April 9 d., Thursday 04:14:26 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > Another good reason to file bugs that affect Debian in the DBTS even if > they are already upstream: apt-listbugs. As I said, RC (grave, serious, critical) should end up in Debian BTS as they are likely to affect many Debian users and even do harm. That's fine. > If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be > packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports > from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or > compile KDE from source before I file a bug. Well, I will clarify you a few facts now: 1) If you report an obvious(!!!) upstream bug to Debian BTS which is of non-RC severity, the most attention you will probably get is a forwarded tag being added (if you are lucky). 2) We will probably never forward a new upstream bug reported to the Debian BTS to KDE BTS (i.e. open a new bug) and we will not play proxy between the user and upstream. 3) If you don't like something, you can either: 3a) do the job in the areas which are lacking in your opinion (the world is not perfect). But please don't tell everybody else what to do. 3b) switch to something else where the job is done better. 4) By doing 1) and 2) you clutter Debian BTS and real bugs which could and should be solved locally in Debian get lost. > >As Sune said, it's impossible for the Debian people to handle this, > > No its not. It takes effort. But that effort is required of every Debian > maintainer. Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would > be denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please > file them all upstream."? KDE is not a 20K source package. KDE is HUGE. Please do some background research before telling something. > I am NOT saying I don't appreciate the effort the maintainers are putting > forth now. That's exactly what you are saying. > If I could get both my jobs and the development I do for my > local charity in hand, I'd pitch in and help. But, wrangling bugs is > *just* *as* *important* as packaging new versions. It may not be quite as > "sexy", but it makes for better software, not just more of it. Sorry, but you have no right to tell other volunteers what they have to do in their free time. You are free to do 3a) though (regularly). > According to the official documents, if you open a bug in the DBTS, you > should not open one upstream, but leave it up to the maintainer. Yeah, yeah, but you can spin official documents as much as you want. That BTS page is not more official than me telling you how things work currently. If you want an upstream bug to be solved, you better report it to KDE BTS. Or it won't be solved unless another user reports it upstream (as simple as that). > I get my OS from one source, the Debian repositories (and initially the > Debian cdimage ftp server). I should only need to provide feedback to one > source: Debian. Maintainers are ultimately responsible for what I receive; > *NOT* upstream. If you don't have enough time to *maintain* the package, > don't even bother packaging it. Lets file KDE removal bug then. I guess 100% of Debian users will be more happy with that than currently situation. > Again: "the whole thing" that I get is the Debian package, and the > maintainer is definitely involved in that. Again: try doing the real work first before telling others what to do. > As far as the effort required to wrangle the bugs, this can be spread out > by getting users involved. KDE itself has had some pretty good luck with > "Bug Day"s where users meet developers on IRC (or whatever) and > confirm/deny bugs, provide more details on how to reproduce, perhaps even > try out patches. > > Last time I took it on myself to update bugs, I got some fairly stern > emails indicating that changes need to go through the maintainers, but I am > willing to help. So I say, HELP HELP HELP. Nobody is going to object. -- Modestas Vainius signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On 2009-04-09, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > As far as the effort required to wrangle the bugs, this can be spread out b= > y=20 > getting users involved. KDE itself has had some pretty good luck with "Bug= >=20 > Day"s where users meet developers on IRC (or whatever) and confirm/deny bug= > s,=20 > provide more details on how to reproduce, perhaps even try out patches. I will announce such a bug day in debian-kde shortly - when I have coordinated enough with the KDE bugsquad to not collide with their activities - and maybe have them to help. > Last time I took it on myself to update bugs, I got some fairly stern email= > s=20 > indicating that changes need to go through the maintainers, but I am willin= > g=20 > to help. Thank you for offer for help. You are most welcome to forward all the kde bugs that aren't debian specific to bugs.kde.org. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > In <200904090054.49296@badopi.org>, Alejandro Exojo wrote: >> El Miércoles, 8 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: >>> IMO: >>> Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should >>> probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will >>> show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in >>> stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will >>> be notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to >>> determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there >>> are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric >>> reduces in value. > > Another good reason to file bugs that affect Debian in the DBTS even if they > are already upstream: apt-listbugs. > >> Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you >> imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE people, >> but other teams as well. > > If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be > packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports from > Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or compile KDE > from source before I file a bug. > >> As Sune said, it's impossible for the Debian people to handle this, > > No its not. It takes effort. But that effort is required of every Debian > maintainer. Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would be > denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please file > them all upstream."? > > I am NOT saying I don't appreciate the effort the maintainers are putting > forth now. If I could get both my jobs and the development I do for my local > charity in hand, I'd pitch in and help. But, wrangling bugs is *just* *as* > *important* as packaging new versions. It may not be quite as "sexy", but it > makes for better software, not just more of it. > Honestly, I'm sick of reading this kind of bullshit. Who are you to tell other people what they have to do or not. If you are not willing to help yourself, then please refrain from demanding what others have to do for you. This kind of bull shits only demotivates people who are actually doing the work. Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On Mié 08 Abr 2009 22:14:26 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: > In <200904090054.49296@badopi.org>, Alejandro Exojo wrote: > >El Miércoles, 8 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: [snip] > If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be > packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports > from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or > compile KDE from source before I file a bug. Then, I'm afraid to tell you, Debian it's not for you. And with more enphasis if you are using unstable (where kde 4.2.2 currently is) and can't understand what Sune wrote. Regards, Lisandro. -- Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer http://perezmeyer.com.ar/ http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904090054.49296@badopi.org>, Alejandro Exojo wrote: >El Miércoles, 8 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: >> IMO: >> Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should >> probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will >> show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in >> stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will >> be notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to >> determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there >> are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric >> reduces in value. Another good reason to file bugs that affect Debian in the DBTS even if they are already upstream: apt-listbugs. >Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you >imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE people, >but other teams as well. If Debian can't shoulder the burden of maintaining KDE, they shouldn't be packaging it. Debian maintainers should be ready to receive bug reports from Debian users. I should not have to run another distribution or compile KDE from source before I file a bug. >As Sune said, it's impossible for the Debian people to handle this, No its not. It takes effort. But that effort is required of every Debian maintainer. Can you think how fast a RFS on the debian-mentors list would be denied if accompanied by "I won't have time to deal with bugs, please file them all upstream."? I am NOT saying I don't appreciate the effort the maintainers are putting forth now. If I could get both my jobs and the development I do for my local charity in hand, I'd pitch in and help. But, wrangling bugs is *just* *as* *important* as packaging new versions. It may not be quite as "sexy", but it makes for better software, not just more of it. >and even >from time to time a KDE upstream maintainer complaints about a bug report >that was lost in the oblivion in the bug tracker of a distribution, and not >reported upstream. Maintainers aren't perfect. They might not forward a bug they should have. I think upstream can forgive them that, since patches for bugfixes come up from the maintainers as well. >Of course, RC bugs should be filled in Debian too. But notice I said > "filled" and "too". According to the official documents, if you open a bug in the DBTS, you should not open one upstream, but leave it up to the maintainer. > I mean: users should report the problems upstream, in a > central place, because the people who are responsible to fix them, is > upstream. Of course you can fill the bug in Debian later, with a reference > to the upstream (using the forwarded tag), so Debian can handle the > release, etc. I get my OS from one source, the Debian repositories (and initially the Debian cdimage ftp server). I should only need to provide feedback to one source: Debian. Maintainers are ultimately responsible for what I receive; *NOT* upstream. If you don't have enough time to *maintain* the package, don't even bother packaging it. >> Yes, you shouldn't copy upstream reports into the Debian BTS, but if you >> are running Debian and encounter the bug it should be on the Debian BTS >> (even if it needs to be somewhere else, too.) > >IMHO, it should be the opposite thing. The bug should be in the KDE BTS. Not all bugs in the Debian-provided packages are KDE bugs. Occasionally, a KDE bug doesn't affect Debian systems. But the Debian user that found the bug definitely knows it affects Debian and should be able to report it to the DBTS, no matter what package it is in. >Again: the people who are developing the whole thing, are the KDE people, so >let them know about the problem in the software they are coding. Again: "the whole thing" that I get is the Debian package, and the maintainer is definitely involved in that. >Also, note that the Debian bug has the forwarded feature, so it feels quite >natural to act this way. Yes, but it is meant for maintainers to use when they've determined that the bug affects upstream. As far as the effort required to wrangle the bugs, this can be spread out by getting users involved. KDE itself has had some pretty good luck with "Bug Day"s where users meet developers on IRC (or whatever) and confirm/deny bugs, provide more details on how to reproduce, perhaps even try out patches. Last time I took it on myself to update bugs, I got some fairly stern emails indicating that changes need to go through the maintainers, but I am willing to help. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On 2009-04-08, Sune Vuorela wrote: > To clean up the bts will probably require around 4 people putting 15 > minutes each day into it on average over a half year. Help is needed. > ANd please help instead of telling us how to do our jobs. http://users.alioth.debian.org/~pusling-guest/pkg-kde-buggraphs/_AALL-forwarded_-forwarded_3years.png - to see the count of bugs. Back when it was going down over half a year, me and ana and a few others was totally using 20-30 minutes in average, daily. So dear readers, please help. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Miércoles, 8 de Abril de 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. escribió: > IMO: > Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should > probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will > show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in > stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will > be notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to > determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there > are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric > reduces in value. Are you aware about how many Debian packagers has the Qt/KDE team? Do you imagine how many time is needed to handle this? And not only the KDE people, but other teams as well. As Sune said, it's impossible for the Debian people to handle this, and even from time to time a KDE upstream maintainer complaints about a bug report that was lost in the oblivion in the bug tracker of a distribution, and not reported upstream. Of course, RC bugs should be filled in Debian too. But notice I said "filled" and "too". I mean: users should report the problems upstream, in a central place, because the people who are responsible to fix them, is upstream. Of course you can fill the bug in Debian later, with a reference to the upstream (using the forwarded tag), so Debian can handle the release, etc. > Yes, you shouldn't copy upstream reports into the Debian BTS, but if you > are running Debian and encounter the bug it should be on the Debian BTS > (even if it needs to be somewhere else, too.) IMHO, it should be the opposite thing. The bug should be in the KDE BTS. Again: the people who are developing the whole thing, are the KDE people, so let them know about the problem in the software they are coding. Also, note that the Debian bug has the forwarded feature, so it feels quite natural to act this way. -- Alex (a.k.a. suy) | GPG ID 0x0B8B0BC2 http://barnacity.net/ | http://disperso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On 2009-04-08, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > IMO: > Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should=20 > probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will= >=20 > show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in=20 > stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will b= > e=20 > notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to=20 > determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there= >=20 > are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric=20 > reduces in value. Currently, there are around 1400 open bugs against kde in the debian bts. Most of these are "upstream issues" that won't be fixed seperately in debian. There is *no reason* to also track it in debian. The only thing we gain from it is making the bug tracking system useless for the debian maintainers as a place for looking for what to do. It also doesn't improve the applications, as we don't have enough manpower to proxy them upstream, proxy their question sback to the user, the users replies back to upstream and .. so the bugs will just stay and clutter the debian bts. If you want to read this as a call for help and help working with the current existing bugs, you are most welcome. At the current state, all the upstream bugs that will not be fixed in debian without upstream doing it, is only making it hard to find the bugs that needs fixing in debian. It DOES NOT improve the packages in debian to file upstream issues in the debian bts. To clean up the bts will probably require around 4 people putting 15 minutes each day into it on average over a half year. Help is needed. ANd please help instead of telling us how to do our jobs. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Alle Wednesday 08 April 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ha scritto: > In <200904090014.01454.modes...@vainius.eu>, Modestas Vainius wrote: > >On 2009 m. April 8 d., Wednesday 23:59:10 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > >> Then file the bug at the Debian BTS and the maintainer will forward it > >> to upstream if necessary. (Of course, only to this is you are willing > >> to work with the maintainer to correctly resolve the bug.) > > > >WRONG thinking. File a bug to Debian BTS only if you believe (and can > > justify it) that it is Debian-specific. I'm not talking about this bug in > > particular, but in general. DO NOT report upstream bugs to Debian BTS > > (with the exception of grave or more serious). > > No, you are wrong. A bug in a package (caused by upstream or not) is a bug > in Debian. Bugs in Debian are, according to "The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ" (an > official document prepared by Debian) to be filed on the Debian BTS. > According to the instructions at http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting > (again, an official document prepared by Debian) if you file a bug on the > BTS you should not file the bug upstream, but let the maintainer do it. > > IMO: > Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should > probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will > show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in > stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will be > notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to > determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there > are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric > reduces in value. > > Yes, you shouldn't copy upstream reports into the Debian BTS, but if you are > running Debian and encounter the bug it should be on the Debian BTS (even if > it needs to be somewhere else, too.) Thank you for clarifying this point. I agree with your official reasons, and I think to users too. Users simply install a package and then must figure out to whom they should file a bug when they have found one. This is going to make them crazy because they are going to have many representatives (upstream authors) instead of just one (Debian). Filing a bug upstream is discouraging since you must search for the project homepage, find other similar bug reports, and thereafter the authors could say that the bug is Debian related (it may happen). Then you are back to the starting point: DBTS. Users are the wrong way to have a fruitful communication with authors and if they solve a problem, they tend to NOT share the solution with everybody (not because they are selfish, but because they are not developers and cannot do any commit). These are my concerns.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904090014.01454.modes...@vainius.eu>, Modestas Vainius wrote: >On 2009 m. April 8 d., Wednesday 23:59:10 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: >> Then file the bug at the Debian BTS and the maintainer will forward it >> to upstream if necessary. (Of course, only to this is you are willing >> to work with the maintainer to correctly resolve the bug.) > >WRONG thinking. File a bug to Debian BTS only if you believe (and can > justify it) that it is Debian-specific. I'm not talking about this bug in > particular, but in general. DO NOT report upstream bugs to Debian BTS > (with the exception of grave or more serious). No, you are wrong. A bug in a package (caused by upstream or not) is a bug in Debian. Bugs in Debian are, according to "The Debian GNU/Linux FAQ" (an official document prepared by Debian) to be filed on the Debian BTS. According to the instructions at http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting (again, an official document prepared by Debian) if you file a bug on the BTS you should not file the bug upstream, but let the maintainer do it. IMO: Even if you *know* the bug is a problem caused by upstream, you should probably file it on the Debian BTS if it affects Debian. This way it will show up in automated reports for the status of bugs in stable/testing/unstable and persons watching the package through PTS will be notified. Bug reports are actually one of the main metrics used to determine when a new version of Debian is ready to be released -- if there are bugs that affect Debian but are only reported upstream, that metric reduces in value. Yes, you shouldn't copy upstream reports into the Debian BTS, but if you are running Debian and encounter the bug it should be on the Debian BTS (even if it needs to be somewhere else, too.) -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
On 2009-04-08, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > --nextPart8867051.ICErxcUmm2 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > In <200904082112.06053.variosin...@gmail.com>, Manolete, ese artista...=20 > wrote: >>[I]f you are not sure if it's a problem in the Debian >>package or in Lancelot itself... > > Then file the bug at the Debian BTS and the maintainer will forward it to=20 > upstream if necessary. (Of course, only to this is you are willing to work= >=20 > with the maintainer to correctly resolve the bug.) In perfect world, yes, but we are far too low on manpower to be proxy for bug communication between user and upstream. (And I have no ntfs partitions, and no wish to get one) /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Hello, On 2009 m. April 8 d., Wednesday 23:59:10 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: > Then file the bug at the Debian BTS and the maintainer will forward it to > upstream if necessary. (Of course, only to this is you are willing to work > with the maintainer to correctly resolve the bug.) WRONG thinking. File a bug to Debian BTS only if you believe (and can justify it) that it is Debian-specific. I'm not talking about this bug in particular, but in general. DO NOT report upstream bugs to Debian BTS (with the exception of grave or more serious). -- Modestas Vainius signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
In <200904082112.06053.variosin...@gmail.com>, Manolete, ese artista... wrote: >[I]f you are not sure if it's a problem in the Debian >package or in Lancelot itself... Then file the bug at the Debian BTS and the maintainer will forward it to upstream if necessary. (Of course, only to this is you are willing to work with the maintainer to correctly resolve the bug.) -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Miércoles 08 Abril 2009 19:57:30 Valerio Passini escribió: > > I going to search, but this way is going to increase the number of > forums/mailing lists I'm fallowing :) > I understand you 1%, hehe; it's the same for me, :-/ but the KDE forum is a very useful site to search and ask regardless what distribution you are using, and if you are not sure if it's a problem in the Debian package or in Lancelot itself... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
Thank you, Manolete > Are you sure it's a distro especific problem, it only happens in Debian? > Perhaps is a Lancelot one. > I can't be sure since I use only Debian > I'd recommend you to search, and eventually post, in http://forum.kde.org I going to search, but this way is going to increase the number of forums/mailing lists I'm fallowing :)
Re: Lancelot locks accessing NTFS partition
El Miércoles 08 Abril 2009 14:54:54 Valerio Passini escribió: > > Should I file a bugreport to Debian? Thank you > > Valerio > Are you sure it's a distro especific problem, it only happens in Debian? Perhaps is a Lancelot one. I'd recommend you to search, and eventually post, in http://forum.kde.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kde-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
