Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On 28 Oct 2002, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Implementing your own menu editor and such is nontrivial, and e.g. you > will also have to update the gnome/kde docs and i18n to reflect the > change, and keep forward-porting your patches as upstream changes. It > doesn't make sense IMO. Speaking as someone who has modified upstream > menu systems in a _smaller_ way than I understand you are suggesting. > Though I'll admit I don't fully understand what you are planning. I do not think it will be necessary for Debian to implement a menu editor, etc., nice, but not required. Awhile back (when the move to revamp the menu system was first being considered, or so I gathered from Ivan M.) I delved into the matter (primarily wrt KDE) and concluded that it was best to let each de look after its own menu system. Build the entries and put them into a heirarchy, but let the de or wm's owm tools and the sysadmin merge them in with their own stuff. With Debian-KDE (but should be applicable to any desktop or wm with its own menu handling subsystem) I would expect it would involve either handing off to kappfinder, dropping them into the system-wide structure (as is done now), or letting users select to either link them into their own menu structure (i.e., ~/.kde/.../applnk) or hand off to kappfinder. Whatever the sysadmin chooses to allow. Which options are implemented and what the default is would be a matter for the people on debian-kde, because it is more of a packager-user thing than a Debian (system-wide) or KDE (environment specific) thing. - Bruce
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have no problem with using vFolder XML files as an option for > categorization, and intend to support it as an option once I have the > Debian system actually nailed down to do anything; however, IMHO it's > a heavyweight solution to a lightweight problem, and I could spend > months writing the XML to do what I could--and did--do in ~50 lines of > real code (yes, I realize I'm supposed to use some whiz-bang thing to > make the XML for me, but what's the point of having things > human-readable when they're not human-writable). Wasn't meaning to argue whether vfolders are better or worse, just noting that a common system could certainly address any issues you have, if we work on it and get it spec'd out. And also I think having a common system is more important than everyone being 100% happy. Compromise good. Implementing your own menu editor and such is nontrivial, and e.g. you will also have to update the gnome/kde docs and i18n to reflect the change, and keep forward-porting your patches as upstream changes. It doesn't make sense IMO. Speaking as someone who has modified upstream menu systems in a _smaller_ way than I understand you are suggesting. Though I'll admit I don't fully understand what you are planning. Havoc
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:57:12 -0400 Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hmm, that might be doable. It does add more complexity for the folks > working on the backend of all this stuff. And it adds another > slightly complicated question during install time possibily - > "Attention User - Do you want both Gnome and KDE apps showing up in > your Menu?" While this question would be meant to help the clueless > newbie achieve a simpler GUI after install, the question could be > horribly confusing and nonsensical for said newbie. > > Is there a good alternative way to accomplish your suggestion that I > am too tired to think of right now? How about this? Instead of the usual bland "KControl" or "Gnome Control (whatever)" menu entry, put in a more descriptive "Configure KDE programs" or "Configure Gnome applications". This is likely to confuse users no more than an entry for "Configure Desktop." Note that some Debian-shipped window managers, like fluxbox or Widowmaker, already don't have a a KDE or Gnome menu. You might also consider looking toward Redhat's unified desktop scheme (Redhat 8.0 psyche) which had some KDE hackers seeing red.
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 October 2002 10:21 am, Matthew Garrett wrote: > I'm not convinced. Different toolkits behave differently. A naive user > shouldn't have to understand why their KDE-based mail client behaves > slightly differently to their Gnome-based news client. I dislike using > non-GTK applications, and I'm willing to accept a slight reduction in > functionality to achieve this. This is an argument for *not installing non- applications*, NOT an argument for keeping the menus seperate. If you don't want non-Gtk applications in your menu, don't install them! - -- Nathaniel W. Turner http://www.houseofnate.net/ Tel: +1 508 579 1948 (mobile) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9vGdt25cAeUrFyDIRAuKrAJ4snPo9mwsEyqNcuQuDBr2hZJsUqwCg76eN dvEBJF9Y1lQpZn03YRbdd30= =R7Pn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 04:18:02PM +1100, Jeff Waugh scrawled: > > > > I guess that means the nifty menu editor GUI won't work if you're not > > using the vFolder categorizer, but IMHO if we have to have a nifty menu > > editor GUI for our end users we've failed to provide a worthwhile menu > > system anyway. (Well, you see Bob, our default menus suck, but you can > > use the nifty menu editor GUI to rearrange things so you can find stuff... > > BZZT.) > > Dude! You sound like a natural born (modern) GNOME hacker. ;-) Come over to the dark side! ;) (Tongue firmly in cheek). -- Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Developer - http://kopete.kde.org, http://www.kde.org Proof BitMover are community-focussed: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103384262016750&w=2 pgpH3F4aBD3gM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
> I guess that means the nifty menu editor GUI won't work if you're not > using the vFolder categorizer, but IMHO if we have to have a nifty menu > editor GUI for our end users we've failed to provide a worthwhile menu > system anyway. (Well, you see Bob, our default menus suck, but you can > use the nifty menu editor GUI to rearrange things so you can find stuff... > BZZT.) Dude! You sound like a natural born (modern) GNOME hacker. ;-) Great to hear that you're taking a strong stand on usability - Debian will be better for it. Thanks, - Jeff -- "Linux is not like Novell, it isn't going to run out of money - it started off bankrupt, in a way." - Steve Ballmer
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
Just to clarify: the Categories from the vFolder spec are used for categorization by the code. The only part where we differ is whether an XML vFolder file is used to map Categories values into locations in the menu hierarchy. So instead of something like: Accesories Accessories.directory Application Utility System the ClassicCategorizer class uses (abridged): elif 'Utility' in categories: if 'System' in categories: return 'system/utility'+appendstr else: return 'accessory'+appendstr where each path component is a .directory file and appendstr is the group, if there is one specified. The whole "DontShowIfEmpty" stuff is expressed more dynamically; if there aren't any menu entries located in a part of the hierarchy, that part won't show up. There's also some balancing code involved, but that could be used with the vFolder XML categorizer just as well, or if you want the verbatim vFolder layout, or even the verbatim ClassicCategorizer layout, you can switch off the balancing by allowing one-entry menus. One-entry menus are IMHO a usability hurdle, but I haven't brought in hordes of doofuses off the street to test this theory (yet). Hope this clarifies things. Chris -- Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On Oct 26, Havoc Pennington wrote: > So short version of my comment, if vfolder doesn't work for you, you > need to be posting to xdg-list and keeping the menu discussion there > moving forward, not cooking up Yet Another Menu System In Isolation. > > If we can get GNOME, KDE, Red Hat, Debian all using the same system > out-of-the-box that'll be a solid de facto standard and clean up this > mess once and for all. I have no problem with using vFolder XML files as an option for categorization, and intend to support it as an option once I have the Debian system actually nailed down to do anything; however, IMHO it's a heavyweight solution to a lightweight problem, and I could spend months writing the XML to do what I could--and did--do in ~50 lines of real code (yes, I realize I'm supposed to use some whiz-bang thing to make the XML for me, but what's the point of having things human-readable when they're not human-writable). Fundamentally it makes more sense (at least to me) for one program on the system to be used by everyone to layout their menus, rather than each thing that wants to layout a menu trying to figure out how to do it on its own. That's how Debian's always done it. Maybe it's a stupid design decision but it's one that seems to work fine for us. A unified system is a nice thing. And nothing I've proposed stops a Debian .desktop file from working just fine on a stock KDE 3.1 or GNOME 2 desktop, unless you want to create something called Group that does something else (in which case I'll gladly withdraw my months-old and apparently-ignored request to standardize it and make it X-Debian-Group instead). I think Group is a good idea that solves a lot of the problems inherent in having a menu space that lots of people are going to want to use (thus loading it up with entries), without losing the categorization benefits of vFolder over the Win* "dump it all in Start Menu willy-nilly" philosophy. Maybe I didn't communicate that very well originally, or maybe this is just one of my occasional flashes of brilliance that is only brilliant to me. In short, I don't see what Debian is doing as "going off in another direction." Rather, I see it as providing interoperability (by moving to a common format for application start metadata from the bizarre format we use currently to .desktop) without sacrificing our ability to experiment with a menu tree (automatic consolidation of small leaves, etc.) or our ability to support non-.desktop environments. I guess that means the nifty menu editor GUI won't work if you're not using the vFolder categorizer, but IMHO if we have to have a nifty menu editor GUI for our end users we've failed to provide a worthwhile menu system anyway. (Well, you see Bob, our default menus suck, but you can use the nifty menu editor GUI to rearrange things so you can find stuff... BZZT.) Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm cranky today, and I've been bombarded by (what seems like) hundreds of messages about the arcana of menus already in the past few days, so I'll shut up now. :-) Chris -- Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > - The new menu package will include a facility (like the existing menu > package does) to build menu hierarchies. The new menu package is > aware of Debian extensions (X-Debian-TryPackage; Group) and allows > expressing categorization (mapping Categories and Group keywords to > a hierarchical menu) more flexibly than the XML vFolder format. > This facility can be used by any window manager, desktop manager > (existing menu entries are used to declare the list of available > session managers; this will need to be supported), help manager (our > menu entries are used by dwww too), or anything else that wants to > show a menu of installed programs and help files (a launcher applet, > an application's "Debian Menu", whatever). > Not sure you are doing this, but it causes problems to use a different format as the primary distribution format, and as the native format for the desktops. Among those problems are that menu editing gets more confusing (or breaks), and that you have to write more Debian<->desktop glue, more Debian-specific docs, and maintain all of it. The vfolder spec is NOT nailed down. In fact a proposal for a fairly large revision was posted yesterday or the day before to xdg-list, by one of the WINE guys. And KDE is still largely silent on what they think we should do in this area. I believe whatever gets agreed on for GNOME/KDE common format is likely to be proposed for LSB. (And I have to say, if there is a GNOME/KDE common format, using some different setup for Debian seems kind of dubious.) So short version of my comment, if vfolder doesn't work for you, you need to be posting to xdg-list and keeping the menu discussion there moving forward, not cooking up Yet Another Menu System In Isolation. If we can get GNOME, KDE, Red Hat, Debian all using the same system out-of-the-box that'll be a solid de facto standard and clean up this mess once and for all. To help out with implementation: see my desktop-file-utils package (http://www.freedesktop.org/software/) for desktop-menu-tool, which can currently generate an old-style tree of desktop files from vfolders. If people want to make it generate other kinds of things from vfolders, I'd take the patches. And as we change the vfolder spec or decide on a different menu spec, I plan to keep desktop-menu-tool in sync. So a good way to say implement "standard menu system to WindowMaker" or whatever would be to add a desktop-menu-tool output mode. Havoc
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
> Here's the menu rewrite plan in a nutshell: 8< snip the good stuff 8< Great, this looks awesome. Thanks! It will be very cool to have complete, internationalised menus in Debian. > - GNOME2 and KDE 3.1 can deal with these .desktop files the same way > they deal with any other .desktop file. (However, I don't believe > this is the ideal situation, but it works until better steps are > taken.) (What would you prefer here? Is there something we can work on between Debian, GNOME, KDE and freedesktop to satisfy your needs?) - Jeff -- He'd never undressed a woman with his eyes. Perhaps army boots, school uniform, or a nightie, but never undressed.
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 11:59:36PM +1000, Jeff Waugh scribbled: > > > > Jeff, while all you write above is true and the vFolder spec is the > > mechanism which will be used (as I gather), I thought this discussion was > > not about "how to do that technically" but "how to organize the layout". I > > doubt vFolder will automagically categorize applications, put them in the > > order we wish, add descriptions etc. etc. > > With correctly written .desktop files, that's precisely what it does. :-) Perfect then :). Btw, where's the gnome-vfs-2.0 vfolders XML description? > I'm assuming that you'd want to stick with the current menu layout for > generated menu files (for e, WindowMaker, etc), but let the other systems > that actually implement the vFolder spec handle it themselves. Yes, I think that's the goal. If .desktop files can do that, then where do I join the fanclub? marek pgp3OYNs0ev8L.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
(I'm only on -devel of these three lists.) On Oct 25, Jeff Waugh wrote: > With correctly written .desktop files, that's precisely what it does. :-) > I'm assuming that you'd want to stick with the current menu layout for > generated menu files (for e, WindowMaker, etc), but let the other systems > that actually implement the vFolder spec handle it themselves. Here's the menu rewrite plan in a nutshell: - Debian packages' menu entries will go in /usr/share/applications in .desktop format (with specified extensions). - GNOME2 and KDE 3.1 can deal with these .desktop files the same way they deal with any other .desktop file. (However, I don't believe this is the ideal situation, but it works until better steps are taken.) - The new menu package will include a facility (like the existing menu package does) to build menu hierarchies. The new menu package is aware of Debian extensions (X-Debian-TryPackage; Group) and allows expressing categorization (mapping Categories and Group keywords to a hierarchical menu) more flexibly than the XML vFolder format. This facility can be used by any window manager, desktop manager (existing menu entries are used to declare the list of available session managers; this will need to be supported), help manager (our menu entries are used by dwww too), or anything else that wants to show a menu of installed programs and help files (a launcher applet, an application's "Debian Menu", whatever). I haven't made much progress in the last week or so, as I need to have a whole book (literally) written by Monday before my editor kills me, but it's coming along. What I have so far is linked from http://phys251.phy.olemiss.edu/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/newmenu/; the interesting things are the draft policy and group specification, while the code is somewhat less interesting. parse_menus.py translates /usr/lib/menu entries into .desktop files; parse_desktop.py reads .desktop (and .directory) files and does categorization based on Category and Group keywords (see the ClassicCategorizer class and build_menu_hierarchy). It's mostly done except for the support code for actually generating a usable menu (which will be in another file). This will support both a "single-file" layout (like FVWM etc. use) and the "tree" layout (directories and files) used by KDE and GNOME. For fun, see if parse_desktop.py does a decent job building a hierarchy from all the .desktop files you have installed (you probably need most of GNOME2 installed to have a good number of files to classify). For extra credit, use parse_menus.py to build .desktop files for all your installed Debian packages (you may need to hack it to use the /var/lib/debmenu/legacy location, as it's currently in "put this stuff in /var/tmp" mode), then repeat the above. Chris -- Chris Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/ Computer Systems Manager, Physics and Astronomy, Univ. of Mississippi 125B Lewis Hall - 662-915-5765
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
> Jeff, while all you write above is true and the vFolder spec is the > mechanism which will be used (as I gather), I thought this discussion was > not about "how to do that technically" but "how to organize the layout". I > doubt vFolder will automagically categorize applications, put them in the > order we wish, add descriptions etc. etc. With correctly written .desktop files, that's precisely what it does. :-) I'm assuming that you'd want to stick with the current menu layout for generated menu files (for e, WindowMaker, etc), but let the other systems that actually implement the vFolder spec handle it themselves. - Jeff -- Perl - The Movie Starring 'Weird' Al Yankovic
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > [ On Friday 25 October 2002 07:53 am, David Megginson wrote: ] > Why *wouldn't* a typical user want both Gnome and KDE apps on the main > menu? After all, if I've installed a spreadsheet, word processor, > browser, game, etc., I probably want to use it, no matter what my base > desktop might be. System utilities, of course, are a special case, > and it would be useful to have separate entries like > > Gnome System/ > KDE System/ *Yes* Exactly. This is my opinion as well. Menu entries should be found without exploring. The way it is now I have to move, for instance, the Gaim entry out of Debian to Internet so that people actually find it. Even if Gaim was put in a subfolder called "Instant Messaging" it would still be easily found. Sincerely, Tim PS While I'm e-mailing...Thank you for all your work. - -- Tim Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.greengibberish.com/ - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9uUiuRNiK9b6/KqoRAgsUAJ0Y7kN/9NxlLMiXive8IL26M3RWCgCfZX+R YZeN9Me6hbuD5ast2a8KA6c= =G6Z8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
From: "Jeff Waugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) > > > > > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt > > > > I looked at that, and it's almost completely impossible to understand, > > since it apparently assumes that you already know what they're talking > > about ... ... > The .desktop format is the proposed replacement for Debian's current menu > file format, and in use by GNOME and KDE already. I would have thought the > standard was required reading for even starting to discuss the next-gen menu > stuff in Debian... > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/desktop-entry-spec.html Sure, but some of us weren't discussing, just following along and the first link you gave us was just a text file without any links to help us. :-) This one's more useful, thanks.
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Luke Seubert writes: > Hmm, that might be doable. It does add more complexity for the folks > working on the backend of all this stuff. And it adds another slightly > complicated question during install time possibily - "Attention User - Do > you want both Gnome and KDE apps showing up in your Menu?" While this > question would be meant to help the clueless newbie achieve a simpler GUI > after install, the question could be horribly confusing and nonsensical for > said newbie. Why *wouldn't* a typical user want both Gnome and KDE apps on the main menu? After all, if I've installed a spreadsheet, word processor, browser, game, etc., I probably want to use it, no matter what my base desktop might be. System utilities, of course, are a special case, and it would be useful to have separate entries like Gnome System/ KDE System/ All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 01:10:57PM +1000, Jeff Waugh scribbled: > > > > I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the > > `current environment', but I think the difference between the menus > > displayed when using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE > > desktop should be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps > > showing up in certain places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu > > structure. > > > > In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with > > appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ > > using the default Gnome/KDE menu structures). > > Hey, > > I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt > > You can do almost all of this with the vFolder spec, and the best thing is > that you will have to do very little work to it them working in GNOME and > KDE because they will both support the spec. So whatever the .desktop files > that Debian packages install say, GNOME and KDE will do. > > If anything, you guys should be contributing to the spec, to make sure that > it works properly for Debian. Then it will truly kick arse for both the > desktops *and* distributions. Jeff, while all you write above is true and the vFolder spec is the mechanism which will be used (as I gather), I thought this discussion was not about "how to do that technically" but "how to organize the layout". I doubt vFolder will automagically categorize applications, put them in the order we wish, add descriptions etc. etc. vFolder is "merely" a way to technically implement the ideas popping up in this thread, but it's only the smal tip of an iceberg - first we need to know what and how to put it in the menus. IMHO, at least. regards, marek pgpMsmmRiV9jq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> That said, i guess this is against the wish of the upstream gnome team, > so politics again, and their stupid opinion that they know best what > should go on _my_ desktop than me, or rather that they only target 'real > users' for gnome 2, 'real users' which would be confused by anything out > of the ordinary or not ressembling windows/macos in simplicity and > unconfigurability. Ok, let's stop ranting, you all know that, and it is > to late anyway to change this. Given that implementing the vFolder standard renders all of this multiple menu goop moot, I don't think you need to be worried about our perspective. Could you please remove your head from your rectum and attempt to contribute productively? Thanks, - Jeff -- We're kind of like Canada, only we hate ourselves more, and it's wetter around the edges.
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> So we are supposed to throw the debian menu system aside, and use the > freedesktop stuff as replacement ? And all other WMs have to adapt ? Given that Debian's shift to the .desktop format has already been proposed (and work proceeds on its implementation), and that the menu system will need to be adapted for that change anyway, going with the existing vFolder draft standard would indeed be sensible. So, not a lot of extra work, and we get standards-compliance to boot. > > (BTW, the .vfolder stuff is the one that made all the menu entries > disappear when i upgraded last time, right ?) The gnome-vfs implementation of vFolders, and with files left behind from a previous version, yeah. - Jeff -- The Unix Way: Everything is a file. The Linux Way: Everything is a filesystem.
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 03:20:49PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I'm confused -- why do you say `No' when the rest of what you write seems > > to agree with what was said? > > > > That is, isn't vFolder/.desktop a _mechanism_, with which the debian menu > > structure could be conveniently displayed by Gnome/KDE (replacing the > > normal Gnome/KDE menu structure)? > > No, if Debian implements the vFolder spec, then the Debian desktop entries > will be merged in with the GNOME and KDE menus. Replacing those structures > (when their apps install correct .desktop files already) will just frustrate > users of those environments. The implementation and structure is already > solved there, so you don't need to worry about it. So we are supposed to throw the debian menu system aside, and use the freedesktop stuff as replacement ? And all other WMs have to adapt ? (BTW, the .vfolder stuff is the one that made all the menu entries disappear when i upgraded last time, right ?) Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 09:57:12PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote: > On 10/24/2002 6:29 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself. But why > > not make it an Option[tm] ? Have a configurable bit in the menu program > > called "Flatten Debian" or something, which will fold any "/Debian" > > menu into the level above it. > > > > Hmm, that might be doable. It does add more complexity for the folks > working on the backend of all this stuff. And it adds another slightly > complicated question during install time possibily - "Attention User - Do > you want both Gnome and KDE apps showing up in your Menu?" While this And add an option about wanting the debian menu layout ? Anyway, we have more control on the debian menu layout than on the other things you propose, if the debian menu is badly layouted or other such, then it should be fixed, not discarded. Consistency, not only between KDE/Gnome but also between all other desktop systems/window managers debian proposes is a good thing. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 10:12:59PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote: > On 10/24/2002 7:20 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Why just make one decision when you can make two, though ? And > > isn't it All About Choice[tm] anyway ? ;-) > > > Yeah, except that too much choice is rough too. Does anyone here believe > that Debian's current menu structure, deeply nested with beaucoup items > because it seeks to make available ALL apps is simple, elegant, and easy to > use for Linux newbies? Well, and hiding this in the gnome menu only adds a level of nesting. My personal opinion on this would be to have an additional toplevel menu in the top menubar, besides the application and actions one (maybe between tham) which will give access to the debian menu directly. This way, you would have access to the desktop specific things under applications, and to the whole debian stuff in the debian menu. It would be ok with me if i could configure this myself, or if it could be done as a response to a debconf question when installing gnome or something such, but then, i have found (under either gnome 1 or gnome 2) no way to modify the menu bar of the top of the screen. Also, adding such a menu to the normal toolbar is rather painfull, it would be nice to have an Add-to-panel->Debian-panel item beside the Add-to-panel->Gnome-panel one. That said, i guess this is against the wish of the upstream gnome team, so politics again, and their stupid opinion that they know best what should go on _my_ desktop than me, or rather that they only target 'real users' for gnome 2, 'real users' which would be confused by anything out of the ordinary or not ressembling windows/macos in simplicity and unconfigurability. Ok, let's stop ranting, you all know that, and it is to late anyway to change this. Friendly, Svne Luther
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The .desktop format is the proposed replacement for Debian's current menu > file format, and in use by GNOME and KDE already. I would have thought the > standard was required reading for even starting to discuss the next-gen menu > stuff in Debian... > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/desktop-entry-spec.html Perhaps so; my participation in this discussion is as a user (`Don't do stupid things to my menus!'*), so I probably don't have the background you do. I will read the above though. -Miles -- Fast, small, soon; pick any 2.
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
> Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) > > > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt > > I looked at that, and it's almost completely impossible to understand, > since it apparently assumes that you already know what they're talking > about ... > > In particular: What are `vfolders'? Virtual folders (read: menus). It allows the application displaying the menus to decide on the structure (eg. gnome-panel, kicker, the Debian menu update scripts), rather than hardcoding the layout on disk. > And: what are `.desktop's? The .desktop format is the proposed replacement for Debian's current menu file format, and in use by GNOME and KDE already. I would have thought the standard was required reading for even starting to discuss the next-gen menu stuff in Debian... http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/desktop-entry-spec.html - Jeff -- What do you get when you cross a web server and a hen? Apoache.
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt I looked at that, and it's almost completely impossible to understand, since it apparently assumes that you already know what they're talking about ... In particular: What are `vfolders'? And: what are `.desktop's? -Miles -- Come now, if we were really planning to harm you, would we be waiting here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> I'm confused -- why do you say `No' when the rest of what you write seems > to agree with what was said? > > That is, isn't vFolder/.desktop a _mechanism_, with which the debian menu > structure could be conveniently displayed by Gnome/KDE (replacing the > normal Gnome/KDE menu structure)? No, if Debian implements the vFolder spec, then the Debian desktop entries will be merged in with the GNOME and KDE menus. Replacing those structures (when their apps install correct .desktop files already) will just frustrate users of those environments. The implementation and structure is already solved there, so you don't need to worry about it. The interesting bit is generating menu files for WMs that *don't* already implement the vFolder spec. - Jeff -- chown -R us:us yourbase
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Hello Luke, On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:18:47 -0400 Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then, > with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps > showing up when one is in the KDE desktop. But GTK is not Gnome. What about GTK apps that are desktop independent, like this email client I am using, Sylpheed? Personally, I like it the way it is now, and, having fairly recently migrated from RH7.3, the Debian sub-menus were/are good to see. best regards Paul
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure > > > with appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in > > > particular, _not_ using the default Gnome/KDE menu structures). > > > > Yup. > > No... The point behind the vFolder spec is that both GNOME and KDE can show > all of the same menu items in their preferred / default structures (which > are almost exactly the same now anyway). > > So with GNOME and KDE you need to do *zero work*. Just install the .desktop > files in the right place, with sensible metadata, and you're done. I'm confused -- why do you say `No' when the rest of what you write seems to agree with what was said? That is, isn't vFolder/.desktop a _mechanism_, with which the debian menu structure could be conveniently displayed by Gnome/KDE (replacing the normal Gnome/KDE menu structure)? -Miles -- `To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems' --Homer J. Simpson
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> > In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with > > appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ using > > the default Gnome/KDE menu structures). > > Yup. No... The point behind the vFolder spec is that both GNOME and KDE can show all of the same menu items in their preferred / default structures (which are almost exactly the same now anyway). So with GNOME and KDE you need to do *zero work*. Just install the .desktop files in the right place, with sensible metadata, and you're done. For other menus (for WMs, etc), their internal structures will need to be rebuilt by the new menu system based on .desktop/vFolder. Almost exactly the same situation as it is now. > See, we are all happy now singing in lovely two part harmony ;-) Sounds like burning cats. :-) - Jeff -- "The plural of lego is legouch, from when you tread on those plural on the floor in bare feet." - Telsa Gwynne
Re: [desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
On 10/24/2002 11:10 PM, Jeff Waugh at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hey, > > I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) > > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt > > You can do almost all of this with the vFolder spec, and the best thing is > that you will have to do very little work to it them working in GNOME and > KDE because they will both support the spec. So whatever the .desktop files > that Debian packages install say, GNOME and KDE will do. > Good tip Jeff, I had already initiated contact with the freedesktop.org folks about standards, but not directly relating to what you proposed. I'll dig into that spec though, just to get myself fully aware. Meanwhile, I assume that Chris Lawrence's menu rewrite will be fully VFolder compliant. Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 10:42 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I am not quite sure what you mean. I don't think the whole menu
>> structure is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure
>> which piddling detail you mean. Please clarify a bit so that I can
>> understand and then address your concern properly.
>
> The message to which I originally responded said:
>
> Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
>
> It's this sort of menus which I don't like.
>
It would be a bit clunky from an elegant UI point of view - yes.
> It's probably the case that presenting every single installed application
> in the menus would confuse and annoy some people, so debian menus should
> probably allow filtering what is presented.
>
> One filtering criteria could be:
>
> `If there are several apps of type X installed, and one of them is a
> "native" application for the currently running windowing environment
> (e.g. Gnome or KDE), then only present that one, and hide the others'
>
> [and hopefully the list of criteria would be stored in a file somewhere,
> so that I could change it to suit my personal preferences!]
>
OK, now I understand what you mean. By and large, we are in complete
agreement I think. GTK apps show up in the Gnome menu, while QT apps show
up in the KDE menu, unless the user changes a menu setting, say from "Basic
Menu" to "Advanced Menu", to show both kinds of apps under either menu.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify things so we could understand each
other properly.
> I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the `current
> environment', but I think the difference between the menus displayed when
> using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE desktop should
> be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps showing up in certain
> places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu structure.
>
Absolutely. I agree with this. Same menu structure regardless of desktop
environment or window manager, just different actual choices under "Web
Browser" suitable to the respective environment/desktop.
> In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with
> appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ using
> the default Gnome/KDE menu structures).
>
Yup.
See, we are all happy now singing in lovely two part harmony ;-)
Cheers
Luke Seubert
[desktop] Please read the vFolder spec [Was: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks]
> I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the > `current environment', but I think the difference between the menus > displayed when using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE > desktop should be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps > showing up in certain places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu > structure. > > In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with > appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ > using the default Gnome/KDE menu structures). Hey, I think this thread could do with a good helping of spec-reading. :-) http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/VFolderDesktops.txt You can do almost all of this with the vFolder spec, and the best thing is that you will have to do very little work to it them working in GNOME and KDE because they will both support the spec. So whatever the .desktop files that Debian packages install say, GNOME and KDE will do. If anything, you guys should be contributing to the spec, to make sure that it works properly for Debian. Then it will truly kick arse for both the desktops *and* distributions. Thanks, - Jeff -- "Everyone says they like Free Software - not everyone is ready to make the tough choices to make it happen." - Maciej Stachowiak
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 10:26 PM, Tim Wheeler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:18 pm, Luke Seubert wrote: ] >> Good point. This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then, >> with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps >> showing up when one is in the KDE desktop. Few newbie type users are >> likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with >> this in mind. Do I understand this correctly as your position? > > i disagree. how about kmail and gaim? these are good and popular > applications. i don't think i'm alone in using them. what about kde and the > gimp? these are just the obvious examples that come to mind. > Well, for a user like you, who obviously already knows his way around Linux desktop apps, I think the "Advanced Menu" option would be the way to go. This would be a menu somewhat like the present Debian menu, offering the full array of options, but at the expense of complexity. But for the newbie Linux user, the goal of Debian Desktop is to present a really simple, elegant, and ready to go right out of the box GUI with just the basics, and as little complexity as possible. Please bear in mind, Desktop Debian does not seek to screw up and "stupidify" Debian for the technically savvy Debian user. Such users will always be able to opt OUT of the Debian Desktop paradigm either during install, or later having tried DeDe and deciding to ditch it. We just want to present a good Desktop for the newbie user, but leave said desktop strictly optional for the old bulls :-) Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Luke Seubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has
> > to choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should
> > make an `environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome,
> > Joe's Wackyterm for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the
> > _whole menu structure_ around such a piddling little detail.
>
> I am not quite sure what you mean. I don't think the whole menu
> structure is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure
> which piddling detail you mean. Please clarify a bit so that I can
> understand and then address your concern properly.
The message to which I originally responded said:
Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
It's this sort of menus which I don't like.
It's probably the case that presenting every single installed application
in the menus would confuse and annoy some people, so debian menus should
probably allow filtering what is presented.
One filtering criteria could be:
`If there are several apps of type X installed, and one of them is a
"native" application for the currently running windowing environment
(e.g. Gnome or KDE), then only present that one, and hide the others'
[and hopefully the list of criteria would be stored in a file somewhere,
so that I could change it to suit my personal preferences!]
> > [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system
> > will only have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps
> > installed, not both.]
>
> Good point. This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then,
> with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps
> showing up when one is in the KDE desktop. Few newbie type users are
> likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed
> with this in mind. Do I understand this correctly as your position?
I don't think it's bad to prejudice the displayed menus toward the `current
environment', but I think the difference between the menus displayed when
using a Gnome desktop and those displayed when using a KDE desktop should
be fairly minor -- along the lines of different apps showing up in certain
places, but _not_ rearranging the whole menu structure.
In other words, we should be using a unified Debian menu structure with
appropriate tweaks for certain environments (and in particular, _not_ using
the default Gnome/KDE menu structures).
-Miles
--
`The suburb is an obsolete and contradictory form of human settlement'
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 09:18 pm, Luke Seubert wrote: ] > On 10/24/2002 7:26 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will > > only have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed, > > not both.] > > Good point. This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then, > with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps > showing up when one is in the KDE desktop. Few newbie type users are > likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with > this in mind. Do I understand this correctly as your position? i disagree. how about kmail and gaim? these are good and popular applications. i don't think i'm alone in using them. what about kde and the gimp? these are just the obvious examples that come to mind. sincerely, tim - -- Tim Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.greengibberish.com/ - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9uKu5RNiK9b6/KqoRAl3lAJ9CbhPeQzxCw7TqRVqiXUItg5/W1gCffr1k tHVGWwdWonP7yFsg68SlRWs= =V6P7 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 7:26 PM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote: >> However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care. KDE apps >> designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment. Apps run >> better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded. >> >> So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works", >> without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice >> and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about >> these issues. > > Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has to > choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should make an > `environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome, Joe's Wackyterm > for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the _whole menu structure_ > around such a piddling little detail. > I am not quite sure what you mean. I don't think the whole menu structure is being based upon any one piddling detail - but I am not sure which piddling detail you mean. Please clarify a bit so that I can understand and then address your concern properly. > [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will only > have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed, not both.] > Good point. This would tend to argue in favor of segregated menus then, with GTK apps showing up when one is using the Gnome desktop, and QT apps showing up when one is in the KDE desktop. Few newbie type users are likely to install both Gnome and KDE, so the menus should be designed with this in mind. Do I understand this correctly as your position? Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 7:20 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Why just make one decision when you can make two, though ? And > isn't it All About Choice[tm] anyway ? ;-) > Yeah, except that too much choice is rough too. Does anyone here believe that Debian's current menu structure, deeply nested with beaucoup items because it seeks to make available ALL apps is simple, elegant, and easy to use for Linux newbies? Simple ease of use often conflicts with lots of choices and flexibility and power. To achieve the one, you must sacrifice the other. > Seriously, I would actually like it if there were some commonality of > grouping in the menu structure between different distros, so that I don't > have to hunt through the menus to find things, every time I swap between > the wife's Mandrake system and my Debian one. If that were possible, > perhaps also under the aegis of freedesktop.org, I wouldn't mind half > as much having to search an extra folder in each category ! > Heh. After reading all the hullaballoo we have generated so far in debating just an OPTIONAL Debian menu structure, can you imagine the flamefests and debate over a unified Linux menu structure across all distros? Whew! It would be enough to burn down every building in Chicago I betcha ;-) Seriously though, by the time Debian Desktop accomplishes its goals, maybe your wife will be very happy to switch to slick and easy to use, and much more stable, Debian Desktop! ;-) Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 6:29 PM, Nick Leverton at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself. But why > not make it an Option[tm] ? Have a configurable bit in the menu program > called "Flatten Debian" or something, which will fold any "/Debian" > menu into the level above it. > Hmm, that might be doable. It does add more complexity for the folks working on the backend of all this stuff. And it adds another slightly complicated question during install time possibily - "Attention User - Do you want both Gnome and KDE apps showing up in your Menu?" While this question would be meant to help the clueless newbie achieve a simpler GUI after install, the question could be horribly confusing and nonsensical for said newbie. Is there a good alternative way to accomplish your suggestion that I am too tired to think of right now? Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert scrawled:
> On 10/24/2002 12:59 AM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> >> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> >> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> >> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> >
> > It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> > I don't think most users really care.
> >
>
> Correct. Most users coming over from Mac or Windows don't care about the
> whole QT versus GTK library and toolset issue.
>
> However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care. KDE apps
> are designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment. Apps run
> better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded. Same
> applies to Gnome and GTK apps.
Also for consistency. If someone configures a proxy in the KDE Control
Centre, this change will propagate to all KDE apps, but not stuff like
ImageMajick (you can open a http:// URL in KWord, for instance). Also,
colour configs, etc, can be preserved across applications.
--
Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Developer, Trinity College, University of Melbourne
pgpRwvm1ATNnF.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:29:56PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote: > However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care. KDE apps > designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment. Apps run > better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded. > > So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works", > without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice > and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about > these issues. Perhaps DD should _think_ about this issue -- for instance, if it has to choose only one terminal program to display in a menu, it should make an `environmentally aware' choice (KDE for KDE, Gnome for Gnome, Joe's Wackyterm for everybody else) -- but it's absurd to base the _whole menu structure_ around such a piddling little detail. [I think that in many case it will be a non-issue because a system will only have the main KDE apps installed or the main Gnome apps installed, not both.] -Miles -- P.S. All information contained in the above letter is false, for reasons of military security.
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 08:52:39AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself. But why > > not make it an Option[tm] ? > > *smack* Sorry Mr. Fawlty ! > > Have a configurable bit in the menu program called "Flatten Debian" or > > something, which will fold any "/Debian" menu into the level above it. > > Do not make user preferences as an escape from actually making a decision. Why just make one decision when you can make two, though ? And isn't it All About Choice[tm] anyway ? ;-) > Surely working with the freedesktop.org vFolder standard and providing menus > for non desktop-affiliated software by default is infinitely more useful to > your users than yet another option (especially one that sounds so violent; > no, I do not wish to flatten my OS, thank you). > > :-) Seriously, I would actually like it if there were some commonality of grouping in the menu structure between different distros, so that I don't have to hunt through the menus to find things, every time I swap between the wife's Mandrake system and my Debian one. If that were possible, perhaps also under the aegis of freedesktop.org, I wouldn't mind half as much having to search an extra folder in each category ! Nick ;-)
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself. But why > not make it an Option[tm] ? *smack* > Have a configurable bit in the menu program called "Flatten Debian" or > something, which will fold any "/Debian" menu into the level above it. Do not make user preferences as an escape from actually making a decision. Surely working with the freedesktop.org vFolder standard and providing menus for non desktop-affiliated software by default is infinitely more useful to your users than yet another option (especially one that sounds so violent; no, I do not wish to flatten my OS, thank you). :-) - Jeff -- Is Murphy's Law constitutional?
[desktop] Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 10:22 AM, Tim Wheeler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support, it > is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find tasks. i > don't like that some items are buried under debian folders. i don't want a > kde system or a gnome system. i want a gnu/linux desktop. a beauty of > opensource is that products can work together (there's no hidden api's)--at > least when political agendas don't get in the way. > Well, Debian Desktop does seek to present a really elegant and simple menu hierarchy. As for mixing QT and GTK apps within a single menu, well, that is being debated. I tend to favor segregation for now. > the free/free software movement has a healthy dislike of bad decisions made > because of money, but shows inconsistency in its silence about bad decisions > made because of politics (and i'm not talking about issues of freedom). > > if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at > least in debian. > Agreed. Within the free software movement, decsions should not be made on the basis of politics. My hope is that good technical arguments will emerge that strongly support various decisions taken, and that we can avoid as much politics as possible. Heh. Am I sadly naive or what? ;-) Cheers, Luke Seubert
[desktop] Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 10:21 AM, Matthew Garrett at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'm not convinced. Different toolkits behave differently. A naive user > shouldn't have to understand why their KDE-based mail client behaves > slightly differently to their Gnome-based news client. I dislike using > non-GTK applications, and I'm willing to accept a slight reduction in > functionality to achieve this. > Good point. This is another good technical reason to segregate Gnome and KDE and have a menu linking to different apps based upon which toolset/libraries are loaded, i.e. which desktop environment the user is using. Now, that said, it would be nice if Debian Desktop developed a set Debian branded themes across all the major GUIs that had common color pallettes, icons, wallpaper, themes, etc. I do not mean making KDE and Gnome look exactly alike - just similar Debian oriented themes. Those special qualities that make KDE and Gnome special unto themselves should be there to shine through :-) And down the road, I would like to do some serious reasearch into User Interface best practices, and tweak the configuration settings for KDE, Gnome, et al so that they behave in a manner consisten with best UI practice. But there are other things more urgent that need work for now. Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 06:16:26PM -0400, Luke Seubert wrote: > On 10/24/2002 7:59 AM, Josip Rodin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is > > to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done. > > > Agreed. The end goal is to have something that Just Works and is reasonably > easy for the newbie. > > However, as I stated elsewhere on this thread, there are some good technical > reasons to segregate by toolset. This is still a topic of debate and > discussion though, and I don't think it is settled. I'm with the "Want to group like tasks with like" camp, myself. But why not make it an Option[tm] ? Have a configurable bit in the menu program called "Flatten Debian" or something, which will fold any "/Debian" menu into the level above it. Nick
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 7:59 AM, Josip Rodin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use. >> I don't think most users really care. > > I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is > to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done. > Agreed. The end goal is to have something that Just Works and is reasonably easy for the newbie. However, as I stated elsewhere on this thread, there are some good technical reasons to segregate by toolset. This is still a topic of debate and discussion though, and I don't think it is settled. > (Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other > applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three > separate menus, some of which empty.) > Hmm, now here is an interesting conundrum. Upon installation, the user selects "Desktop" for an installation package. Does this mean that ONLY those KDE or Gnome apps that will appear in the menu hierarchy are installed? Or will the full range of KDE and Gnome apps be installed, but only the best of breed show up in the menu hierarchy for the "Basic Menu" layout? To deal directly with the point you raised though, if the user does NOT install, say, KDE - then s/he would not have a KDE oriented menu installed with no apps in it - just a pure Gnome menu, or whatever. I would hope that the installer and Desktop config system would be at least that minimally intelligent. Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 1:35 AM, Joey Hess at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Well I cannot speak about KDE from direct experience, but I can tell you > that for gnome, having to explain to a nontechnical user[0] who doesn't > even know what gnome is (except for that splash screen that comes up > when she logs in) why some things are on this set of menus, and some > other, seemingly pretty similar sort of things[1] are all the way over > here, in this other set of menus, can be is pretty frustrating and > embarrassing[2]. > Hopefully Debian Desktop will be able to simplify the menu hierarchy and UI so that all this becomes less confusing. Joey, I have tossed my hat in the ring as a volunteer to help design the menu layout for Desktop Debian. You mentioned in a postscript in your email that you worked on the original menu hierarchy. May I call upon your wisdom and experience and feedback when I go to help out with the DD menu design? Cheers, Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On 10/24/2002 12:59 AM, Miles Bader at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
>
> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> I don't think most users really care.
>
Correct. Most users coming over from Mac or Windows don't care about the
whole QT versus GTK library and toolset issue.
However, that does not mean that Debian Desktop should not care. KDE apps
are designed to run optimally under the KDE Desktop environment. Apps run
better and faster because the libraries are already pre-loaded. Same
applies to Gnome and GTK apps.
So, if Desktop Debian wants users to have a desktop that "Just Works",
without any puzzling delays waiting for some apps to load - everything nice
and smooth and well integrated - then it makes sense for DD to worry about
these issues.
Cheers,
Luke Seubert
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
> i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support, > it is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find > tasks. i don't like that some items are buried under debian folders. I wholeheartedly agree. The 'Debian' sub directories have often left me wondering if I ever actually install some piece of software. Separating Gnome and KDE applications would make the situation even more confusing. (Don't get me wrong, though. It's really nice that all the apps *are* there. If only KDE apps appeared in K-menu, it would be much worse than the current way of having the Debian dirs.) The only case were subfoldering by UI flavor *could* be useful, IMHO, is GUI vs. console applications. For example, hardly anyone wants to run tkwish or even joe from the menu. I could be wrong of course, and don't think separating menus even that way would be absolutely necessary. A nice solution could be to let the user decide according to which criteria the system should order the folders (and of course let them *easily* reorder them, but that's not really a Debian issue). Unfortunately, I guess it would require more metadata than is currently available from the packages? > if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at > least in debian. I sign your plea. - Jarno
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Daniel Stone wrote:
> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
Well I cannot speak about KDE from direct experience, but I can tell you
that for gnome, having to explain to a nontechnical user[0] who doesn't
even know what gnome is (except for that splash screen that comes up
when she logs in) why some things are on this set of menus, and some
other, seemingly pretty similar sort of things[1] are all the way over
here, in this other set of menus, can be is pretty frustrating and
embarrassing[2].
Putting the paraih apps in a submenu under the blessed gui consistent
appts[3] does seem like an improvement over how gome does it anyway.
--
see shy jo
[0] Relatively; upgrading from fvwm2..
[1] Many of them using GTK and so looking much like any other gnome app.
[2] Especially given that I was one of the main designers of the debian menu
heierarchy.
[3] I think that the general inconsistency of the web has made many users
notice minor gui inconsistencies less than we do, oddly.
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Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
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> [ On Thursday 24 October 2002 06:59 am, Josip Rodin wrote: ]
> (debian-gnome doesn't exist; adjusted to debian-gtk-gnome. I also don't
> read -kde or -gtk-gnome so please Cc: appropriately.)
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 01:59:17PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > > Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> > > personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> > > in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> > > problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
> >
> > It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they
> > use. I don't think most users really care.
>
> I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want
> is to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.
>
> (Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other
> applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three
> separate menus, some of which empty.)
i know for myself, and to a much greater degree, for the people i support, it
is counter-productive to have to search into the menu tree to find tasks. i
don't like that some items are buried under debian folders. i don't want a
kde system or a gnome system. i want a gnu/linux desktop. a beauty of
opensource is that products can work together (there's no hidden api's)--at
least when political agendas don't get in the way.
the free/free software movement has a healthy dislike of bad decisions made
because of money, but shows inconsistency in its silence about bad decisions
made because of politics (and i'm not talking about issues of freedom).
if nothing else, hear this plea for gnome and kde to work together... at
least in debian.
sincerely,
tim
- --
Tim Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.greengibberish.com/
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Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
In chiark.mail.debian.devel, you wrote:
>Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
>> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
>> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
>> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
>
>It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
>I don't think most users really care.
I'm not convinced. Different toolkits behave differently. A naive user
shouldn't have to understand why their KDE-based mail client behaves
slightly differently to their Gnome-based news client. I dislike using
non-GTK applications, and I'm willing to accept a slight reduction in
functionality to achieve this.
Back in my Amiga days, applications were released using three main
toolkits (the system widgets, MUI and Classact). The lack of coherent
look or behaviour between them led to people writing patches which
hacked the system widgets to look more like one of the others. There are
people out there who want consistency, and I think an average user is
more likely to fall into this class. My preference would be for the
default KDE menus to prefer KDE applications, the default Gnome menus to
prefer Gnome applications and other window managers not to care.
--
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
(debian-gnome doesn't exist; adjusted to debian-gtk-gnome. I also don't read
-kde or -gtk-gnome so please Cc: appropriately.)
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 01:59:17PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> > personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> > in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> > problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
>
> It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
> I don't think most users really care.
I agree -- and we shouldn't make them care, because what most people want is
to get a task done, not fiddle about with how it gets done.
(Also, most people won't have a bunch of GNOME, and KDE, and other
applications installed, so it makes no sense for those to have three
separate menus, some of which empty.)
--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
> personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
> in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
> problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
It sounds bizarre, actually, to classify programs by which toolkit they use.
I don't think most users really care.
-Miles
--
P.S. All information contained in the above letter is false,
for reasons of military security.
Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Mon, Oct 21, 2002 at 12:06:05AM -0400, Joey Hess scrawled:
> Debian should follow the lead of every other major distro and offer the
> exact same menu layout throughout.
>
> -- http://debianplanet.net/node.php?id=831
>
> I cannot help but shudder when I read that comment in this negative
> Debian review. We *led* the way: we wrote menu, we put everything in
> menu, we made every window manager (even twm, for crying out loud!) use
> menu. And then gnome and kde came along, and we threw all that out the
> window. No excuses: This stinks. We should be able to do much better.
Not necessarily. When I use KDE, I largely want to use KDE apps. I
personally think GNOME/KDE should offer their own menus, with a submenu
in each category for "Non-{GNOME,KDE} Applications". I don't see a
problem with this, i.e. how our KDE3 packages do it.
--
Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Developer - http://kopete.kde.org, http://www.kde.org
Proof BitMover are community-focussed:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103384262016750&w=2
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Re: why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Joey Hess wrote: > Debian should follow the lead of every other major distro and offer the > exact same menu layout throughout. > > -- http://debianplanet.net/node.php?id=831 > > I cannot help but shudder when I read that comment in this negative > Debian review. We *led* the way: we wrote menu, we put everything in > menu, we made every window manager (even twm, for crying out loud!) use > menu. And then gnome and kde came along, and we threw all that out the > window. No excuses: This stinks. We should be able to do much better. Why, we never released our code to freshmeat, nor sourceforget(not a typo).
why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks
Debian should follow the lead of every other major distro and offer the exact same menu layout throughout. -- http://debianplanet.net/node.php?id=831 I cannot help but shudder when I read that comment in this negative Debian review. We *led* the way: we wrote menu, we put everything in menu, we made every window manager (even twm, for crying out loud!) use menu. And then gnome and kde came along, and we threw all that out the window. No excuses: This stinks. We should be able to do much better. -- see shy jo pgpCxpO430p5B.pgp Description: PGP signature
