Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Patrick Matthäi 
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Ben Hutchings schrieb:
> Due to bug #517130, linux-modules-extra-2.6 must be removed.
> linux-modules-nonfree-2.6 does not suffer the same licence compliance
> issue, but it is extremely fragile since proprietary drivers are often
> not updated for new kernel versions.  The kernel team will shortly be
> requesting its removal as well.
> 
> If you want to continue having modules auto-built, we recommend that you
> consider integrating with DKMS.  You can trigger a build on installation
> or upgrade of the module source.  The dkms package then automatically
> rebuilds installed module sources when a new kernel version is
> installed.
> 
> Why DKMS and not module-assistant?  Your packages presumably already
> work with m-a, but m-a doesn't automatically rebuild modules on upgrade.
> Also, DKMS is supported by other distributions, so many out-of-tree
> module sources already include the necessary configuration file.

Sorry, but I do not see any decision how to handle it, yet.

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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Patrick Matthäi 
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Ben Hutchings schrieb:
>> Wasting time and bandwidth (fetching linux-headers etc)? Great...
> 
> Building obscure modules for every kernel flavour on Debian's own
> auto-builders is also a waste, especially when just one broken module
> breaks the whole conglomeration package.

It is a big difference if our auto-builders build them e.g. 12 times for
every architecture or if they have to be built on every end-consumer PC,
which are e.g. one million pcs. All those senseless lost of energy and
performance..

It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
ressources.

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/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
 Patrick Matthäi
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E-Mail: pmatth...@debian.org
patr...@linux-dev.org

Comment:
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we were maybe wrong.
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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Michael S Gilbert 
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:47:09 +0200 Patrick Matthäi wrote:
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> 
> Ben Hutchings schrieb:
> >> Wasting time and bandwidth (fetching linux-headers etc)? Great...
> > 
> > Building obscure modules for every kernel flavour on Debian's own
> > auto-builders is also a waste, especially when just one broken module
> > breaks the whole conglomeration package.
> 
> It is a big difference if our auto-builders build them e.g. 12 times for
> every architecture or if they have to be built on every end-consumer PC,
> which are e.g. one million pcs. All those senseless lost of energy and
> performance..

it takes about 3 seconds to build the fglrx module (on a modern
machine), so i don't see this as too much of a problem.  to put things
in perspective, it actually takes longer for apt to read its package
lists than to build the fglrx module, which is done a lot more often
(i.e. every time the user invokes "apt-get update") than building the
module.

> It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
> decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
> ressources.

it may take some effort and learning on our part, but this is very
doable.  as long as dkms isn't going away, then the transition will not
be a wasted effort.

mike


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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Ben Hutchings 
On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 19:47 +0200, Patrick Matthäi wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Ben Hutchings schrieb:
> >> Wasting time and bandwidth (fetching linux-headers etc)? Great...
> > 
> > Building obscure modules for every kernel flavour on Debian's own
> > auto-builders is also a waste, especially when just one broken module
> > breaks the whole conglomeration package.
> 
> It is a big difference if our auto-builders build them e.g. 12 times for
> every architecture or if they have to be built on every end-consumer PC,
> which are e.g. one million pcs. All those senseless lost of energy and
> performance..

Please don't exaggerate.

udd=> select sum(insts) from popcon where package like 'fglrx-modules-%';
 sum 
-
 892

> It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
> decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
> ressources.

What do you mean, 'nothing is decided'.  The kernel team made a
decision, after consultation with representatives of the FTP team and
the release team.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.


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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Patrick Matthäi 
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Ben Hutchings schrieb:
> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 19:47 +0200, Patrick Matthäi wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Ben Hutchings schrieb:
 Wasting time and bandwidth (fetching linux-headers etc)? Great...
>>> Building obscure modules for every kernel flavour on Debian's own
>>> auto-builders is also a waste, especially when just one broken module
>>> breaks the whole conglomeration package.
>> It is a big difference if our auto-builders build them e.g. 12 times for
>> every architecture or if they have to be built on every end-consumer PC,
>> which are e.g. one million pcs. All those senseless lost of energy and
>> performance..
> 
> Please don't exaggerate.
> 
> udd=> select sum(insts) from popcon where package like 'fglrx-modules-%';
>  sum 
> -
>  892

I do not speak only for fglrx, also one million was choosen by the fair
random number generator.

> 
>> It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
>> decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
>> ressources.
> 
> What do you mean, 'nothing is decided'.  The kernel team made a
> decision, after consultation with representatives of the FTP team and
> the release team.

Where is the reference? This is not included in the bugreport.

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/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
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patr...@linux-dev.org

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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Ben Hutchings 
On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 23:29 +0200, Patrick Matthäi wrote:
[...]
> >> It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
> >> decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
> >> ressources.
> > 
> > What do you mean, 'nothing is decided'.  The kernel team made a
> > decision, after consultation with representatives of the FTP team and
> > the release team.
> 
> Where is the reference? This is not included in the bugreport.

Do you not believe I can speak for the kernel team?

The minutes for the meeting where we decided this are in
.  A
summary of this will be posted to d-d-a shortly.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.


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Re: [Pkg-fglrx-devel] Auto-building out-of-tree kernel modules

2009-10-17 Thread Patrick Matthäi 
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Ben Hutchings schrieb:
> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 23:29 +0200, Patrick Matthäi wrote:
> [...]
 It is also not a good idea to switch to dkms, now where nothing is
 decided or it may end like with ia32-apt-get with many wasted developer
 ressources.
>>> What do you mean, 'nothing is decided'.  The kernel team made a
>>> decision, after consultation with representatives of the FTP team and
>>> the release team.
>> Where is the reference? This is not included in the bugreport.
> 
> Do you not believe I can speak for the kernel team?
> 
> The minutes for the meeting where we decided this are in
> .  A
> summary of this will be posted to d-d-a shortly.

Okay thanks for clarification.

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Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
 Patrick Matthäi
 GNU/Linux Debian Developer

E-Mail: pmatth...@debian.org
patr...@linux-dev.org

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we were maybe wrong.
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