Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On jeu., 2010-01-21 at 13:29 +0800, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > > "SM" == Shannon McMackin writes: > > SM> I think it's wonderful that the current version at least knows > what > SM> the current BIOS rev is, that in itself is a huge amount of work > to > SM> add in considering the variety of ThinkPad models. > > Exactly. > > Here's my several versions of a reply: Jidanni, *please* stop. You've had the explanations multiple times, now if you don't *want* to understand there's nothing we can do about. Last try: > > 1. > So please have thinkpad_acpi.ko cough up the number -- instead of > having > the user do all that work over again -- and in the end he can only > hope > that he found the version thinkpad_acpi.ko was referring to... but he > will never know. > Henrique has more intelligent things to do than track each and every BIOS/EC release for reach and every ThinkPad each time he releases thinkpad-acpi. > 2. > So why not reveal it to the user? > Instead of having the user spend hours checking websites to find the > answer. And all along that answer might not be the one the program is > using. But the user will never know, as even though the answer is on > the > tip of thinkpad_acpi.ko's tongue, it just won't spit it out, and the > user isn't going to get very far with even the source code, unless > he's > an expert. Whereupon he might discover the number the thinkpad_acpi.ko > is using is totally different. But who will ever know unless he's an > expert. Because he's not even sure the version is the right one. The only thing he knows is that it's *outdated*. If he shows that version, then the user will search for that version, while there are more recent ones available. The version he compares too *may not be* the recommended version. The recommended version is *the latest* (is “latest” something you have problems to understand?) > > 3. > It will clearly take the user many hours of research to try a instead > of > making him do much more work to find out if it is the same number he > could find on some website, or even a different number or who knows > what > number as he won't be cracking the code anytime shortly. > There it is on the tip of the program's tongue... but sorry, "try to > figure it out from the code". It's no more difficult to search for latest bios release on Lenovo website than to search for a particular version. I might even say it's easier, just look for your ThinkPad model, BIOS category and take the latest (see) one. Ok, the end for me. Regards, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
> "SM" == Shannon McMackin writes: SM> I think it's wonderful that the current version at least knows what SM> the current BIOS rev is, that in itself is a huge amount of work to SM> add in considering the variety of ThinkPad models. Exactly. Here's my several versions of a reply: 1. So please have thinkpad_acpi.ko cough up the number -- instead of having the user do all that work over again -- and in the end he can only hope that he found the version thinkpad_acpi.ko was referring to... but he will never know. 2. So why not reveal it to the user? Instead of having the user spend hours checking websites to find the answer. And all along that answer might not be the one the program is using. But the user will never know, as even though the answer is on the tip of thinkpad_acpi.ko's tongue, it just won't spit it out, and the user isn't going to get very far with even the source code, unless he's an expert. Whereupon he might discover the number the thinkpad_acpi.ko is using is totally different. But who will ever know unless he's an expert. 3. It will clearly take the user many hours of research to try a instead of making him do much more work to find out if it is the same number he could find on some website, or even a different number or who knows what number as he won't be cracking the code anytime shortly. There it is on the tip of the program's tongue... but sorry, "try to figure it out from the code". -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
OK, I found the file. One needs to scrape it out of a browser, as there
is no way to wget it.
All I know is you do
printk(TPACPI_INFO "%s v%s\n", TPACPI_DESC, TPACPI_VERSION);
printk(TPACPI_INFO "%s\n", TPACPI_URL);
and then later
if ((bios_version > thinkpad_id.bios_release) ||
(ec_version > thinkpad_id.ec_release &&
ec_version != TPACPI_MATCH_ANY)) {
printk(TPACPI_WARN
"WARNING: Outdated ThinkPad BIOS/EC firmware\n");
printk(TPACPI_WARN
"WARNING: This firmware may be missing critical bug "
"fixes and/or important features\n");
And then, bios_version and ec_version, which you have right there at
your fingertips, are not revealed to the user. He isn't even told which
one of these seemingly top secret values is the culprit.
And indeed, looking at the code, it would take perhaps several days for
him to rewrite your program to cough up these two values... especially
if he is just a .debs user, and does not want to have to download and
compile Linux kernels. Open but very complicated source.
Also just as valuable as printing TPACPI_URL would, if he is to be told
to upgrade, be printing " http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/BIOS_Upgrade ".
Or who knows what he might Google himself to. Adult BIOS upgrades...
>> > "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes:
H> The driver always logs the current version number at INFO priority at
H> startup, because otherwise I don't know what firmware is in a thinkpad when
H> I request the logs from someone.
You get to know what BIOS we have but we don't get to know what BIOS you
think we should have. You don't know how frustrating this is -- that's
why I'm sending all these mails.
You could even add a disclaimer that all you know
is there is a newer version , but you don't necessarily recommend it.
H> That is NOT part of the warning. It is not even in the same priority level.
All I know is they both show up together in syslog. I don't think we
.deb users can adjust priority levels anyway.
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Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > > "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes: > The warning to upgrade comes with the users current version number. The driver always logs the current version number at INFO priority at startup, because otherwise I don't know what firmware is in a thinkpad when I request the logs from someone. That is NOT part of the warning. It is not even in the same priority level. > I looked for the small file that corresponds to > drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.ko > > Maybe it is somewhere on > http://repo.or.cz/w/linux-2.6/linux-acpi-2.6/ibm-acpi-2.6.git/ > > I can't find it. You'd need to get it from one of the recent "release/*" branches. It will be easier if you just look at whatever is in Linus main kernel tree (the URL I sent you). -- "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
> "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes: H> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: >> Indeed, why tease the user with any version numbers in the first place, H> I don't. The warning to upgrade comes with the users current version number. >> if there is no way provided for him to pry the other half out of your >> binary. H> If you care so much, go read the source code, which incidently is the ONLY H> thing I provide to anyone. I looked for the small file that corresponds to drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.ko Maybe it is somewhere on http://repo.or.cz/w/linux-2.6/linux-acpi-2.6/ibm-acpi-2.6.git/ I can't find it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > Candidate out of your binary. So I needn't download the whole kernel > source tar just to extract that one number each time I want to know what Go to http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=tree and navigate to drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.c -- "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > Indeed, why tease the user with any version numbers in the first place, I don't. > if there is no way provided for him to pry the other half out of your > binary. If you care so much, go read the source code, which incidently is the ONLY thing I provide to anyone. -- "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
What if instead of # apt-cache policy somepackage Installed: 2.10.2-2 Candidate: 2.11~0exp1-0exp1 it just said # apt-cache policy somepackage Installed: 2.10.2-2 Candidate: UPGRADE NOW Indeed, why tease the user with any version numbers in the first place, if there is no way provided for him to pry the other half out of your binary. I tried strings(1). Do I have to try strace? Do I "strace reboot?" Probably not. Is there a simple one liner I can use to extract the Candidate out of your binary. So I needn't download the whole kernel source tar just to extract that one number each time I want to know what the heck it's basing its statement on. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > > "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes: > > H> The version the driver thinks you should use is the latest that was > H> available when I wasted a few hours tracking them all. > > Yes, but in addition to giving the message > "Your version 1234 is out of date". > > You need to say "we believe the current version is 1236". No, I don't. You will either update or you will not update when you see that message. If you are going to try to update, you will need to download the firmware, and the web page where you can download it will give you the latest firmware. So, any version information is pointless, and it would look like I recommend a certain version instead of whatever is the latest. > And you need to say "this is based on information from > http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/BIOS_Upgrade ". No, because it is not. When I decide a BIOS type needs to be added to that table, I track down the lenovo page for that model and get the information from there. Whether a BIOS type will be added depends on it being stable (no updates for a long time), what the changelog says it fixes, and whether it fixes some problem I got a report for. It is not automatic. I also happen to take the opportunity to update thinkwiki, since I consider thinkwiki to be a really important resource, but that's orthogonal to the issue. And the canonical location IS the lenovo/IBM site. > Or else each user > 1. Will spend even more hours than the ones you mentioned, trying to track > down what you are warning him about. He will end up all over the You're the first one I know of that had so much trouble to locate it. I guess most people just ask in the thinkpad or lenovo forums (which I don't monitor). Some ask how to upgrade the bios in one of the two thinkpad MLs, and get told to look in thinkwiki. And some won't have much trouble locating it through the Lenovo site. > 2. He will be unable to write down on paper "don't worry about 1236. It's The "public changelog" is NOT complete, and I have received that information from official sources. > 3. Perhaps consider allowing the user to put the BIOS etc. numbers he is > happy with in some file that could be checked, so he could say "don't > warn me about anything up thru 1238 (even though he really has only 1236 > installed.) Well, you could just tell whatever tool you use to check the system logs to ignore it. It is logged only once per boot for most users (which don't rmmod/modprobe thinkpad-acpi once the system is running). Now, if it is causing a massive ruckus because of some widespread tool that looks in the kernel log for LOG_WARNING and scares the heck out of the users with warning sirens, that's a different deal. In that case I could be persuaded to lower the severity from LOG_WARN to LOG_NOTICE as a stopgap measure. -- "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: [ltp] Re: Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On mer., 2010-01-20 at 14:16 +0800, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > > "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes: > > H> The version the driver thinks you should use is the latest that was > H> available when I wasted a few hours tracking them all. > > Yes, but in addition to giving the message > "Your version 1234 is out of date". > > You need to say "we believe the current version is 1236". That's not the point. He *doesnt* care about the version you need to run. He wants you to run the *latest*. Now he can't check for that, so he just updates the version when he has time. > > And you need to say "this is based on information from > http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/BIOS_Upgrade ". > > Or else each user > 1. Will spend even more hours than the ones you mentioned, trying to > track > down what you are warning him about. He will end up all over the > www-30xx.ibm.com site in a mess. That's no exactly Henrique's fault. And, while the website is not exactly the easiest I know, I definitely have no problem to find a new BIOS. > 2. He will be unable to write down on paper "don't worry about 1236. > It's > only some BIOS password enhancements, and since I don't use password > on > the BIOS, I can ignore that (and not risk flashing into a > paperweight.) -- as he can't tell if you are warning him about 1236 or > 1237 or what. The only other option would be downloading the whole > Debian Linux > source just to find the one line you are checking against. Do you _really_ think every change in the bios/ec appear in the changelog? I don't. I think there are quite some changes in every published BIOS, and that you definitely should run them. > 3. Perhaps consider allowing the user to put the BIOS etc. numbers he > is > happy with in some file that could be checked, so he could say "don't > warn me about anything up thru 1238 (even though he really has only > 1236 > installed.) Except Henrique doesn't care about what the user /think/ is fine, because in the end, it's /not/ fine. The only valid version is the latest. I found Henrique clear enough on that on the first mail, but maybe you didn't. Was I myself clear enough? Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
> "H" == Henrique de Moraes Holschuh writes: H> The version the driver thinks you should use is the latest that was H> available when I wasted a few hours tracking them all. Yes, but in addition to giving the message "Your version 1234 is out of date". You need to say "we believe the current version is 1236". And you need to say "this is based on information from http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/BIOS_Upgrade ". Or else each user 1. Will spend even more hours than the ones you mentioned, trying to track down what you are warning him about. He will end up all over the www-30xx.ibm.com site in a mess. 2. He will be unable to write down on paper "don't worry about 1236. It's only some BIOS password enhancements, and since I don't use password on the BIOS, I can ignore that (and not risk flashing into a paperweight.) -- as he can't tell if you are warning him about 1236 or 1237 or what. The only other option would be downloading the whole Debian Linux source just to find the one line you are checking against. 3. Perhaps consider allowing the user to put the BIOS etc. numbers he is happy with in some file that could be checked, so he could say "don't warn me about anything up thru 1238 (even though he really has only 1236 installed.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Processed: Re: [ltp] Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org: > tag 565789 wontfix Bug #565789 [linux-2.6] say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be Added tag(s) wontfix. > thanks Stopping processing here. Please contact me if you need assistance. Debian bug tracking system administrator (administrator, Debian Bugs database) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Bug#565789: [ltp] Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
Yves-Alexis Perez writes: > On 18/01/2010 21:28, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > >> WARNING: Outdated ThinkPad BIOS/EC firmware >> WARNING: This firmware may be missing critical bug fixes and/or important >> features >> >> Perhaps it could mention what it believes the current versions should >> be, so we can check the IBM website before decide we have send the unit >> back to IBM to get whatever it is that is bothering it updated (as we >> Linux users can't update the BIOS ourselves.) >> >> Also it could mention perhaps some URLs on where it got its information >> about what is current from. This is all very well documented in drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.c: /* * The changelogs would let us track down the exact * reason, but it is just too much of a pain to track * it. We only list BIOSes that are either really * broken, or really stable to begin with, so it is * best if the user upgrades the firmware anyway. */ printk(TPACPI_WARN "WARNING: Outdated ThinkPad BIOS/EC firmware\n"); printk(TPACPI_WARN "WARNING: This firmware may be missing critical bug " "fixes and/or important features\n"); } and /* * Table of recommended minimum BIOS versions * * Reasons for listing: *1. Stable BIOS, listed because the unknown ammount of * bugs and bad ACPI behaviour on older versions * *2. BIOS or EC fw with known bugs that trigger on Linux * *3. BIOS with known reduced functionality in older versions * * We recommend the latest BIOS and EC version. * We only support the latest BIOS and EC fw version as a rule. * * Sources: IBM ThinkPad Public Web Documents (update changelogs), * Information from users in ThinkWiki * * WARNING: we use this table also to detect that the machine is * a ThinkPad in some cases, so don't remove entries lightly. */ Note especially the * We recommend the latest BIOS and EC version. * We only support the latest BIOS and EC fw version as a rule. > I'm not sure about that particular ThinkPad, but I definitely can update > my T61 bios. Lenovo provides bootable cd iso for them. They don't for the older ThinkPads, but they do provide bootable floppy images which are just as good (don't know if the R50e has a floppy drive, but you can always convert the floppy image to an el-torito CD or to a USB stick if necessary). The only problem with the Lenovo floppies is that they are embedded in a floppy write utility for DOS, Windows or OS/2. But there is a neat Linux trick which I used with a Thinkpad T42: Download the "Non-Diskette" version from Lenovo and unpack it with "cabextract" (from the Debian package with the same name). The .exe contains a raw bootable floppy image which can be dd'ed to a floppy or used on an el-torito CD or whatever. The rest of the files are just the Windows utilites which you don't need. E.g: bj...@nemi:/tmp$ wget http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/1wuj25us.exe --2010-01-19 10:48:21-- http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/1wuj25us.exe Resolving download.lenovo.com... 92.122.64.27 Connecting to download.lenovo.com|92.122.64.27|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK Length: 1355800 (1.3M) [application/octet-stream] Saving to: `1wuj25us.exe' 100%[==>] 1,355,800173K/s in 7.2s 2010-01-19 10:48:30 (183 KB/s) - `1wuj25us.exe' saved [1355800/1355800] bj...@nemi:/tmp$ cabextract 1wuj25us.exe 1wuj25us.exe: library not compiled to support large files. 1wuj25us.exe: library not compiled to support large files. Extracting cabinet: 1wuj25us.exe extracting 1WUJ25US.IMG extracting IBMTPI.XML extracting BIOSUPTP.EXE extracting doboot.exe extracting DOSBOOT.COM extracting dosboot.sys extracting DOSBOOT.vxd extracting DOSBOOT2.COM extracting dosboot2.sys extracting dosboot3.COM extracting eflashas.sys All done, no errors. bj...@nemi:/tmp$ ls -l 1WUJ25US.IMG -rw-r--r-- 1 bjorn bjorn 1474560 2006-12-11 02:10 1WUJ25US.IMG bj...@nemi:/tmp$ file 1WUJ25US.IMG 1WUJ25US.IMG: DOS floppy 1440k, x86 hard disk boot sector Follow the Lenovo instructions after creating the floppy or CD images. Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#565789: [ltp] Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
On 18/01/2010 21:28, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: > Package: linux-2.6 > Version: 2.6.32-5 > Severity: wishlist > File: > /lib/modules/2.6.32-trunk-686/kernel/drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.ko > X-debbugs-Cc: ibm-acpi-de...@lists.sourceforge.net, > linux-think...@linux-thinkpad.org > > We see > ThinkPad ACPI Extras v0.23 > http://ibm-acpi.sf.net/ > ThinkPad BIOS 1WET88WW (2.08 ), EC 1VHT28WW-1.04 > IBM ThinkPad R50e, model 1834NV1 > WARNING: Outdated ThinkPad BIOS/EC firmware > WARNING: This firmware may be missing critical bug fixes and/or important > features > > Perhaps it could mention what it believes the current versions should > be, so we can check the IBM website before decide we have send the unit > back to IBM to get whatever it is that is bothering it updated (as we > Linux users can't update the BIOS ourselves.) > > Also it could mention perhaps some URLs on where it got its information > about what is current from. > > I'm not sure about that particular ThinkPad, but I definitely can update my T61 bios. Lenovo provides bootable cd iso for them. Cheers, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#565789: say what the current Thinkpad BIOS/Firmware should be
Package: linux-2.6 Version: 2.6.32-5 Severity: wishlist File: /lib/modules/2.6.32-trunk-686/kernel/drivers/platform/x86/thinkpad_acpi.ko X-debbugs-Cc: ibm-acpi-de...@lists.sourceforge.net, linux-think...@linux-thinkpad.org We see ThinkPad ACPI Extras v0.23 http://ibm-acpi.sf.net/ ThinkPad BIOS 1WET88WW (2.08 ), EC 1VHT28WW-1.04 IBM ThinkPad R50e, model 1834NV1 WARNING: Outdated ThinkPad BIOS/EC firmware WARNING: This firmware may be missing critical bug fixes and/or important features Perhaps it could mention what it believes the current versions should be, so we can check the IBM website before decide we have send the unit back to IBM to get whatever it is that is bothering it updated (as we Linux users can't update the BIOS ourselves.) Also it could mention perhaps some URLs on where it got its information about what is current from. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-kernel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
