removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

Hi,

I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
from the project.  The process is outlined here:
,
and I have already completed step 1.

Step #2 requires the support of some 15 developers.  I am attempting to
find people that are interested in publically seconding my explusion
request.  If you are interested, please email me.  Remember that your
request will be public, and you will have to provide reasons why you
feel that his removal will benefit the project.  I'm looking both for
people who have had conflicts w/ him (logs are always good, too), as
well as people who have just seen the effects of his actions (ie,
unbiased opinions).

Sven has always been a nuisance to deal w/, but up until now I have not
considered this action.  In the past two weeks, the following comments
made by him have changed my mind:

2006-03-07:
 jonas: i hope we never again meet in public, because i promise i
will hit you if i do.

2006-03-14:
svenl> vorlon: so, you think it is correct of jonas to mention
traveller and thanking him for investigating the issue, while fully
ignoring my own contribution ?
<-- vorlon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has left
#debian-kernel
 yeah, coward.

Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable.  He threatens bodily
harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later
publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
even), behind his back.  This is incredibly childish, aggressive
behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO).

Some might argue that we should just kick him from the channel and
remove his commit access to the debian-kernel project, but that does not
solve the problem of him abusing other teams, as well as his abusive
mailing list posts.  He also {co-,}maintains some 47 packages, which
means users for those packages will have to deal w/ him as well.  I
believe it is better if he is removed from the project altogether, as he
damages it more than he helps.

So, if you are interested in seconding the expulsion request, please let
me know.  Please do not turn this into a flamewar; I don't care about
your reasons why people should not be forcefully removed from the
project.  Those who feel this way probably have not had to work w/ Sven
on a team for the past 2 years.



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 21:01 -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
[...]
> Sven has always been a nuisance to deal w/, but up until now I have not
> considered this action.  In the past two weeks, the following comments
> made by him have changed my mind:
> 
> 2006-03-07:
>  jonas: i hope we never again meet in public, because i promise i
> will hit you if i do.
> 
> 2006-03-14:
> svenl> vorlon: so, you think it is correct of jonas to mention
> traveller and thanking him for investigating the issue, while fully
> ignoring my own contribution ?
> <-- vorlon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has left
> #debian-kernel
>  yeah, coward.
> 

A few clarifications/comments based upon what people have said:

1) These quotes are examples of his destructive behavior.  One can find
plenty more in the mailing lists.  The ones I supplied here are the ones
that made *me* decide to take action.

2) Yes, I have tried talking to him.  After a number of blowups on the
debian-kernel list, myself and a number of kernel team members have
talked to him to calm him down (and in some cases getting him to
apologize).  The behavior he displays happens repeatedly, despite
warnings and requests that he behave himself.  The rest of the IRC log
from when he threatened Jonas is basically me attempting to show Sven
how destructive his behavior is.  The fact that, a week later, he
continues w/ this behavior (after years of doing the same thing) is why
you're seeing this request.

3) If he was in the NM queue, and you were his AM, would you accept him
after seeing how he behaves?  If not, why is that so different from
kicking him out of the project (other than asking that he be banned from
the lists, but this is a request of the list masters, not the DAM)?  In
that regards, I have a wonderful quote from Sven: "I am not in the AM
queue, so i can be as rude as i want." [0]

I presume he meant the NM queue.

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg00967.html


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.

Thanks very much Andres, this is really appreciated.

/me leaves in disgust.

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> 
>, and I have already completed step 1.

I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?

I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also 
may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to 
correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he 
did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…).

If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a 
ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent 
thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs 
that need you to rule about them.


The project is really going insane.
-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mardi 14 mars 2006 à 21:01 -0500, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

If this is a joke, it's not funny. I happen to prefer Andrew Suffield's
humour.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).

Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sam Hocevar]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Hi,

   Hi!

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

   Hahaha oh wow. You got it the wrong way, you should only do that
_after_ someone posts http://zoy.org/~sam/ftwcal.jpeg to d-d-a. Now I
have no other choice but to report you to the mailing-list behavioural
police. Sorry.

Sam.
-- 
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SEVERUS SNAPE IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE
  BILL WEASLEY MARRIES FLEUR DELACOUR AND HIS FACE IS MUTILATED
  (attention : spoilers)


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Ralf Treinen]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.

This is ridiculous. It seems to become a favourite pasttime in debian
to ask for exclusion of people with whom someone has a personal quarrel.

> So, if you are interested in seconding the expulsion request, please let
> me know.  Please do not turn this into a flamewar; I don't care about
> your reasons why people should not be forcefully removed from the
> project.  Those who feel this way probably have not had to work w/ Sven
> on a team for the past 2 years.

I have been working with Sven on the debian ocaml team for six years.
He was the founder of that team, and for a long time among the most
active and productive members. Every time I had the occassion to
collaborate with him discussions were constructive and fruitful.

-Ralf.
-- 
Ralf Treinen
Laboratoire Spécification et Vérification
CNRS, École Normale Supérieure de Cachan, INRIA Futurs
http://www.lsv.ens-cachan.fr/~treinen


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute
> an allegation of defamation.

The facts have previously been discussed elsewhere. I replied merely to 
point out that Sven does not always apologise for his behaviour.

> Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor.

I have absolutely no interest in starting legal action against Sven. 

And rather than wasting /my/ bandwidth, would you please not Cc me on 
replies?
-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> > from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> > 
> >, and I have already completed step 1.
> 
> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
the other?


> 
> what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?

I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults.  

> 
> I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also 
> may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to 
> correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he 
> did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…).
> 

That is not the case.  Furthermore, apologizing repeatedly does not make
his behavior right.


> If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a 
> ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent 
> thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs 
> that need you to rule about them.


This is not about taunting a release manager, an ftp master, or a DAM.
This is about repeated aggressive, childish behavior, against a number
of people.  Sven seems to anger almost everyone he works closely with.
The examples I provided are just the tip of the iceberg.  I thought I
explained this in my followup email[0].

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00621.html


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.

For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways
of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:

http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt

This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas.  If
he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years,
rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won
at all costs, I would not be making this request.



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Some might argue that we should just kick him from the channel and
> remove his commit access to the debian-kernel project, but that does not
> solve the problem of him abusing other teams, as well as his abusive
> mailing list posts.  He also {co-,}maintains some 47 packages, which
> means users for those packages will have to deal w/ him as well.  I

I don't know if you've a clue about Sven's behaviour in teams other then
debian-kernel. I do have a clue about Sven's behaviour in the
debian-ocaml-maint team, which he founded and which I joined something
like 5 years ago. That team collaboratively maintains some 30 packages
now and Sven is still an active part of it.

He has always been a valuable contributor of the team, happy to hacking
and to discuss with other people in order to reach common goals.
Discussing with him may be sometimes difficult, that's true, but hey: if
we are supposed to be a community, we need to learn to accept each other
peculiarities! In my experience, Sven has always done more good than
harm to the debian-ocaml-maint team.

So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion
process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will
do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[John Hasler]

Pierre Habouzit writes:
> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

So do I.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 15:05, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther
> > > removed from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> > >  > >tml> , and I have already completed step 1.
> >
> > I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.
>
> It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
> allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
> project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
> the other?
>
> > what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?
>
> I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults.

just so that we are clear, I consider your first mail a personal insult 
already, especially given that your decision is based on irc logs.

Using the irc logs of a pissed person for the ground of an expulsion 
process is either (I'll let you choose):
 * a complete lack of dignity ;
 * the result of a fascist mind (so that I can win my Godwin point) ;
 * that you are a saint, since you feel comfortable with blaming people
   that release pressure on IRC.


oh and btw, as you noted it, I attacked you personnaly, maybe you should 
begin a procedure to expulse me.


-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Mike Bird]

On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 05:00, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> > may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> > correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> > did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).
> 
> Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
> him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
> than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

Matthew,

Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute
an allegation of defamation.

Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor.

--Mike Bird


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 01:00:19PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> > may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> > correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> > did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).
> 
> Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
> him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
> than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

Well, this was on the ubuntu irc channel, when you where all presenting
excuses for not having applied the patch that allowed the pegasos to be fully
supported on ubuntu, even though i did so one month before the release, and
nobody commented on that bug.

I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or
the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
bug report.

Then you can add the fact that the ubuntu kernel people are making noise on
public conferences about unifying the kernel (based on their stuff) for all
debian and debian based distros, while nobody at the debian kernel team is
aware of that, and contrary to when fabbionne was the ubuntu kernel
maintainer, ben collins hardly communicates with us.

I gave up on trying to communicate with the ubuntu kernel folk about pegasos
support since then, and when i learned they dropped the mkvmlinuz support
with a "nobody should be using oldworlds by now" comment, which was extremely
clueless as oldworlds don't use it, only ibm chrp, pseries and the pegasos,
weeks after genesi became a ubuntu partner, i decided to let this pass by the
hierarchical way instead.

I note also that Andres Salomon is now, to a degree, involved with the ubuntu
folk, which is ok with me, but may color his request with regard to the above.

I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 

So, please tell me when i have said anything such to you in the context of
debian, i would be very surprised about it.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Gustavo Franco]

On 3/14/06, Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.
>

[ Andres, don't get me wrong but in the next time you start a thread
like this one doing
cross-posting, can you set the reply-to for -devel, for example ? ]

Please Andres, the expulsion process is the last mile. Are we there yet ?

It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically: The
people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the people
that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The minute after
the release team announces that we're going to delay our next release,
we will stop with these weird threads and keep arguing that we're all
volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the humanity!

I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some time
considering not my words, but just Etch.

Thanks in advance,
-- stratus

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:

> I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
> for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
> printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or
> the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
> bug report.

I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.

> I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
> patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
> year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
> never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
> offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 

I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any 
references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to 
spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not 
confused?

Friendly,
-- 
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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:10PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> 
> > I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
> > for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
> > printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you 
> > or
> > the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
> > bug report.
> 
> I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
> Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
> When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
> could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
> want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
> for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
> platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.

Well, i think that benc comment about "nobody should use oldworld's by now" is
particularly clueless, and you in particular did know better than that.

So, please stay to reality, and my maybe unjudicious use of the word
"sabotage" was dedicated to this second issue. Now, really, you should all
cool down, if one has to guard every word he says in order to not offend folk,
this is going to be no fun at all. And we elected branden as DPL even :)

> > I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
> > patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
> > year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
> > never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
> > offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 
> 
> I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any 
> references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to 
> spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not 
> confused?

I may indeed be confused about this, if so i apologize.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
> 
> For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways
> of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:
> 
> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
> 
> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas.  If
> he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years,

/me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres clearly seems
to live in some kind of parallel world :)

> rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won
> at all costs, I would not be making this request.

Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen on that bug
report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that jonas is not excempt
from the fault, and that other had had trouble dealing with him, even if you
didn't know that when you made your hasty judgement.

Friendly, still,

Sven Luther



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
> It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically:
> The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the
> people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The
> minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay
> our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep
> arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the
> humanity!
> 
> I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
> Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
> about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
> time considering not my words, but just Etch.

Thank you!

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Rthoreau]

On Wednesday 15 March 2006 08:40, Andres Salomon wrote:
> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
>
> For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive
> ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:
>
> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
>
> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened
> Jonas.  If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the
> past two years, rather than just viewing every discussion as a
> battle that must be won at all costs, I would not be making this
> request.

"So it begins" From the LOTR, I am not a developer, or much of 
Debian User but I do follow the list on occasion. I must say it's 
fun to see Debian tear itself apart. How many developers do you 
have to loose or chase away before the problem is solved.

I have no dog in this fight, and I do not take sides, but Debian 
needs good developers it seems that some developers want to drive 
as many people out of Debian as possible. At this rate Debian will 
cease to be revelant, just look at all the unmaintained packages 
that are orphaned, look at other distro's like Ubuntu, it seems 
that Debian and desktop are not viable anymore.

I also think it a little suspect as Sven has taken a self imposed 
hiatus to take care of some personal business. And then this talk 
of removal crops up, to me this would be like a knife stab in the 
back, at least wait until he comes back. Or inform him before he 
left, yes it might lead to heated discussion. But it's the right 
thing to do, maybe at this rate it doesn't matter, it seems that 
nobody listens on both sides anymore.  

Why can't people agree to disagree, it happens, after all I thought 
it was all about the code, not about which person can be the alpha 
male on the top of the hill type of thing. I see it if a person 
writes good code, and has good ideas is helpful in general, then it 
would be in a projects best interest to keep those people. 

From what I have read and seen it seems that Debian has a way of 
getting rid of good developers, developers who want to make Debian 
better. It's not about protecting someone's ego, or position in the 
pecking order, it's making Debian the best distro possible.  If all 
this angst, and anger were putt into fixing bug reports, and making 
better software then etch would be in a better position.

It also might be helpful, if some one in Debian started a developer 
education program, to train developers how to code better. Sure 
they have the policy, but it seems that education is lacking. Most 
of these flame wars are started as a result of poor understanding 
of what need's to be done. If you don't understand the problem then 
how are you going to understand the solution.

This should be real interesting to watch, as this will only be the 
beginning of the Purge.

Rthoreau

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Gnu-Raiz]

On Wednesday 15 March 2006 08:40, Andres Salomon wrote:
> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
>
> For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive
> ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:
>
> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
>
> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened
> Jonas.  If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the
> past two years, rather than just viewing every discussion as a
> battle that must be won at all costs, I would not be making this
> request.

"So it begins" From the LOTR, I am not a developer, or much of 
Debian User but I do follow the list on occasion. I must say it's 
fun to see Debian tear itself apart. How many developers do you 
have to loose or chase away before the problem is solved.

I have no dog in this fight, and I do not take sides, but Debian 
needs good developers it seems that some developers want to drive 
as many people out of Debian as possible. At this rate Debian will 
cease to be revelant, just look at all the unmaintained packages 
that are orphaned, look at other distro's like Ubuntu, it seems 
that Debian and desktop are not viable anymore.

I also think it a little suspect as Sven has taken a self imposed 
hiatus to take care of some personal business. And then this talk 
of removal crops up, to me this would be like a knife stab in the 
back, at least wait until he comes back. Or inform him before he 
left, yes it might lead to heated discussion. But it's the right 
thing to do, maybe at this rate it doesn't matter, it seems that 
nobody listens on both sides anymore.  

Why can't people agree to disagree, it happens, after all I thought 
it was all about the code, not about which person can be the alpha 
male on the top of the hill type of thing. I see it if a person 
writes good code, and has good ideas is helpful in general, then it 
would be in a projects best interest to keep those people. 

From what I have read and seen it seems that Debian has a way of 
getting rid of good developers, developers who want to make Debian 
better. It's not about protecting someone's ego, or position in the 
pecking order, it's making Debian the best distro possible.  If all 
this angst, and anger were putt into fixing bug reports, and making 
better software then etch would be in a better position.

It also might be helpful, if some one in Debian started a developer 
education program, to train developers how to code better. Sure 
they have the policy, but it seems that education is lacking. Most 
of these flame wars are started as a result of poor understanding 
of what need's to be done. If you don't understand the problem then 
how are you going to understand the solution.

This should be real interesting to watch, as this will only be the 
beginning of the Purge.

Gnu_Raiz

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Otavio Salvador]

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.
>
> It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
> allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
> project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
> the other?

I oppose to his (Sven) expulsion too.

Well, I don't trust all actions of DAM's neither of anybody else. I
think each action need to be judge by time.

I think we all do mistakes. I agree that Sven sometimes is very rudy
like a lot of other DDs here and there. That isn't a reason to remove
him from the project.

I personally dislike that situation of Jonas and Sven and do thing
that those things shouldn't happen but we also need to look all good
work that Sven already did in past and continue to do in a lot of
areas of Debian et all.

I work with him in some projects (Parted and MOL) and never had
problems to deal with him. We always discussed all things without
problems.

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Otavio Salvador]

martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
>> It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically:
>> The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the
>> people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The
>> minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay
>> our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep
>> arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the
>> humanity!
>> 
>> I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
>> Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
>> about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
>> time considering not my words, but just Etch.
>
> Thank you!

Thank you! That's what we all are (should) be here to do.

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[José David]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dear Friends,

First of all i apologise for my poor english (portuguese :-))

I follow de dev lists of debian for several months now, my knowlege in
linux whas not so good so i never applyed to be a developper and also
my time isnt much :-(. (maybe i will change that soon)

Being a pleasent system (IMHO The Best), Debian picked my attention
for the software but """also for the ideals""".

I probably shouldnt be wryting to a list where nobody knows me but
here it goes

Now really people, i dot think matters like this being discussed is in
the interess of anyone. One because he gets mad to everyone and says
thing not so pleasent (dont think im trying to excuse that :-)), other
because they feal like my wife when i "accidentally lol" brake my
keyboard against the wall, and start to think that nobody loves them
etc etc etc

Friends, please keep in mind the following:

- -YOU ALL are important has you are, with your deffects and
qualityes.
- -Linux world needs more people not kick out anyone!!! Can whe really
afford that ??
- -Community is some times problems and if you dont like it, please
work
on your own not with anybody else.

This being said i will ask everyone the following:

PLEASE keep up the good work and correct bugs, enjoy developing new
things, help hus linux lovers to bring people from the "dark side" of
it the "bright side" ;-) and dont whaist you time with this matters.

On behalf off the good relations, I as a user, ask for forgiveness to
anyone who think he is offended with sven' s words or acts. Also ask
to sven to join a fighting club :-) all that anger may be in your
profit. ;-)
Seriously i understand you all, i am also a little bit rough some
times but that doesnt mean that i am not a great guy!!!

Sorry for interrupting your work and conversatiosn with this,

Friendly

José David




Sven Luther escreveu:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at
09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> 
>> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds
directly to
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
>> 
>> For the people who seem to think that there are more
constructive
>> ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion
process:
>> 
>> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
>> 
>> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened
>> Jonas. If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in
the
>> past two years,
> 
> 
> /me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres
> clearly seems to live in some kind of parallel world :)
> 
>> rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that
must
>> be won at all costs, I would not be making this request.
> 
> 
> Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen
on
> that bug report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that
> jonas is not excempt from the fault, and that other had had
trouble
> dealing with him, even if you didn't know that when you made your
> hasty judgement.
> 
> Friendly, still,
> 
> Sven Luther
> 
> 
>

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Geert Stappers]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:59:46AM -0500, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion
> process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will
> do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion.

Here another DD that doesn't has time to study the expulsion process.

Right now is my approach to wait for a voting for the actual expulsion
and then vote to keep Sven Luther _in_ the project.

Let me know if I need to do something else to keep luther a DD.


Geert Stappers

P.S.
Cc me about this energy drain issue


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Wed, Mar 15 2006, 01:32:41PM]:

> I have no dog in this fight, and I do not take sides, but Debian 
> needs good developers it seems that some developers want to drive 
> as many people out of Debian as possible. At this rate Debian will 
> cease to be revelant, just look at all the unmaintained packages 
> that are orphaned, look at other distro's like Ubuntu, it seems 
> that Debian and desktop are not viable anymore.

Sounds like you distribute some propaganda, myths spreaded by hardcore
Ubuntu fans (or trolls).  Do you realize that Ubuntu is just a regular
Snapshot of Debian Sid plus some usability sugar?

Or do you realize that Ubuntu has a COC regulating destructive behaviour
of developers, while Debian does not? Read: they do already make sure
that people do not destruct the atmosphere of trust.  So it is okay for
Ubuntu to take care of that but not for Debian? Sounds like a
discrepancy in your judgement.

> Why can't people agree to disagree, it happens, after all I thought 
> it was all about the code, not about which person can be the alpha 
> male on the top of the hill type of thing. I see it if a person 
> writes good code, and has good ideas is helpful in general, then it 
> would be in a projects best interest to keep those people. 

We are volunteers and we need motivation to _do_ things. It is not just
about writting code, donating it to some institution and go away. You
expect something in return, either money or some kind of credit (or
both, ideally ;-). And what you do not need is somebody driving your
blood presure to dangerous levels.

Eduard.

-- 
 doogie, 25 m/s is pretty fast
 40m/s from apache
 25m/s is from java
 doogie, that's about 8 km/h.


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Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)

[C Shore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Abstract

"Please can't we all just get along?"  Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but
I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation
before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to
a personnel issue.

Further comments follow,

Andres Salomon wrote:
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.

IANADDY but I have followed some of the mailing lists for a while and
this is ludicrous.

> Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
> hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable.  He threatens bodily

Sven is certainly not quiet, however from what I have seen of type of
response his suggestions and posts get, he is justifiably frustrated.  I
am personally surprised he hasn't gotten disgusted with the project and
left, or greatly reduced participation, of his own volition, as others,
most recently 'Joey', have done.  Perhaps it is for the same reason I
will be helping with the debtags tagging (regardless of whether or not
that can lead to being a dd), namely believing in the ideals of the
Debian Project.

I think he feels personally attacked by rejections of his ideas, but I
haven't seen anything other than initial knee jerk rejections of his
ideas either, even ones that later are accepted.  He also does something
that I wouldn't, which is to be a highly active participant in the
public forums.  Personally I prefer to spend time working on projects,
and leave mailing lists and such as tertiary or lower in importance,
however a preference is all that is, not The Way Things Should Be(tm).

I think mediation by a neutral third party would be useful here, and
would be far more constructive than attempting to expel Sven.  With the
exception of the quote Andres posted, I haven't seen sven be abusive
(emotional, yes, abusive, no) and I've seen a lot that of responses and
behaviour on the parts of developers like joeyh that would tend to piss
me off too.  (The difference is that I'd probably just say 'the h*ll
with you', and work where I was appreciated).

I don't think Sven is anywhere near perfect, but I haven't seen any
attempt at a peaceable solution either.  Perhaps my history doesn't go
far enough back.

If Sven was willing to accept the DPL as a mediator, would those who are
complaining about him also do so?  And, what, besides disliking his
communication style, are the beefs with Sven?  And if that is the
primary beef, what would 'make it better' without eliminating his
ability to argue for his ideas (which seem to get dismissed out of hand,
but to this outsider seem to make sense)?  Has there been any attempt to
work with Sven on his communication style, or, as seems to me, has it
been primarily hostility on the other side as well?

"Please can't we all just get along?"  Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but
I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation
before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to
a personnel issue.

Cheers,

Daniel
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Re: Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)

[Rthoreau]

On Wednesday 15 March 2006 21:57, C Shore wrote:
> Abstract
>
>snip<
> Sven is certainly not quiet, however from what I have seen of
> type of response his suggestions and posts get, he is justifiably
> frustrated.  I am personally surprised he hasn't gotten disgusted
> with the project and left, or greatly reduced participation, of
> his own volition, as others, most recently 'Joey', have done. 
> Perhaps it is for the same reason I will be helping with the
> debtags tagging (regardless of whether or not that can lead to
> being a dd), namely believing in the ideals of the Debian
> Project.
>
>
> Daniel

Good post, I agree totally, when a DD gets so frustrated with the 
project, and their only recourse is to leave, then something is 
wrong with the system.

In my other post I mentioned a few idea's that might be worth 
considering, but I was flamed and marked as a FUD spreader.  That's 
ok but their seems to be a lot of blaming the messenger going 
around lately. What people need to do is look inwards, and consider 
some of these idea's before shooting the messenger.  

Maybe a lot of developers need to swallow there pride and try to 
learn from others. 

Rthoreau


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Re: Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:57:42PM -0500, C Shore wrote:
> Abstract

Thanks for your message, this indeed sums up my feeling very well.

As for mediation, seeing the thing go into an impass, i asked Andreas Barth
(on the technical comittee) to mediate on thursday/friday, and went into
offline land, trying to forget the issue. He sais he had no time immediately,
but would look into it.

This whole issue still blew up because of a single harmless comment i made on
wednesday, and my insatisfaction for jonas not crediting my work in solving
the bug, which is a sad thing.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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