Re: DRM legal advice
In message <20090304093237.ga17...@lupin.powdarrmonkey.net>, Jonathan Wiltshire writes get_iplayer (renamed to get-iplayer for Debian naming restrictions) avoids this by fetching programmes through the iPhone channel in reasonable quality and saving them to disk. However, this also evades the DRM protection so the user is free to keep the files for as long as (s)he likes, which obviously isn't what the BBC wishes. Upstreams documentation does encourage users to respect the restrictions that would be in place and remove files after they should have expired, but there is no technical mechanism for doing so. Can you advise what the Debian position on this is? Please keep me in CC. Not the Debian position, but more the general Free Software attitude of "respect other peoples' copyrights" ... get-iplayer should implement a technical system whereby it downloads the expiry dates, and auto-deletes the files if the expiry date has passed. If you don't have access to the expiry dates, then default to the 7/30 day limit from the date of download. Okay, any experienced user can trivially by-pass that mechanism, but it takes a conscious effort. At the end of the day, you should respect other peoples wishes with regard to their stuff. If other people choose not to, that's their lookout. Look at the way (I think) official Ghostscript respects Adobe's copy-protection bits. Again, it's trivial to bypass but by default the software respects the copyright holder's wishes. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: DRM legal advice
Jonathan Wiltshire wrote: > I am preparing a package called get-iplayer, and a potential sponsor has > asked me to get your opinion before we go further. I have used get-iplayer on occasion. Thank you to all involved in the third-party debian packages. [...] > get_iplayer (renamed to get-iplayer for Debian naming restrictions) > avoids this by fetching programmes through the iPhone channel in > reasonable quality and saving them to disk. However, this also evades > the DRM protection so the user is free to keep the files for as long as > (s)he likes, which obviously isn't what the BBC wishes. > > Upstreams documentation does encourage users to respect the restrictions > that would be in place and remove files after they should have expired, > but there is no technical mechanism for doing so. > > Can you advise what the Debian position on this is? Please keep me in > CC. No, we cannot advise what the Debian position on anything is. We can give our opinions and ask you to convey them to those who do decide the debian position (maintainers, sponsors, ftpmasters). debian-legal is advisory. The decision-makers are the ftpmasters (ultimately, but they're a bit busy and tend to listen to advice) and the package maintainers. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Usually, the maintainers ask debian-legal, but there are some notable exceptions, IMO thanks to various hate campaigns. If two maintainers have totally different views, I guess ftpmasters get to play referee while debian-legal are the linesmen. Back to the package: It's evading the DRM, not cracking it, so I think it also evades the various DRM/TPM enforcement laws. On that front, I'd include it in debian. One minor concern is whether the downloaded video files require codecs from non-free to play. I don't think they do, but I've not checked that closely recently. If it requires non-free codecs, I'd submit it to the contrib archive. Hope that helps, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: DRM legal advice
On Wed Mar 04 09:32, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote: > get_iplayer (renamed to get-iplayer for Debian naming restrictions) > avoids this by fetching programmes through the iPhone channel in > reasonable quality and saving them to disk. However, this also evades > the DRM protection so the user is free to keep the files for as long as > (s)he likes, which obviously isn't what the BBC wishes. AIUI the BBC service provides 3 viewing channels: - flash (online streamed only) - Windows client (DRM restricted) - iPhone client (no restrictions) If you were removing the DRM on the windows channel I would certainly say that was against the law in DMCA/EUCD countries. In the case of the iPhone downloads there is (AFAIK) no restriction on the download other than claiming to be an iPhone, so I don't think you can be said to have circumvented an effective technical protection measure. One might claim that the act of claiming to be an iPhone when one is not would count as such a circumvention, but I don't believe merely checking the user-agent string (or whatever) would count as an 'effective technical protection measure'. Obviously IANAL etc. Matt P.S. if you don't upload it to Debian proper, consider contacting the debian-multimedia guys. -- Matthew Johnson signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: DRM legal advice
"Anthony W. Youngman" wrote: > Not the Debian position, but more the general Free Software attitude of > "respect other peoples' copyrights" ... > > get-iplayer should implement a technical system whereby it downloads the > expiry dates, and auto-deletes the files if the expiry date has passed. [...] This puzzled me in three ways: Do the copyright terms of things on iplayer actually have expiry dates, or is that something merely enforced by technical measures on some of the download methods? Aren't we allowed reasonable timeshifting for limited purposes? (Why should get-iplayer be treated differently to recording the same things off of VirginMedia's on-demand service?) Wouldn't the above data loss be a grave bug in the sense of http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities ? Refusing to play would be better, although get-iplayer doesn't necessarily do the playback, so I'm not sure that's feasible. Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: DRM legal advice
In message <49ae6b15.fqybgcvyp1ig7h3c%...@phonecoop.coop>, MJ Ray writes "Anthony W. Youngman" wrote: Not the Debian position, but more the general Free Software attitude of "respect other peoples' copyrights" ... get-iplayer should implement a technical system whereby it downloads the expiry dates, and auto-deletes the files if the expiry date has passed. [...] This puzzled me in three ways: Do the copyright terms of things on iplayer actually have expiry dates, or is that something merely enforced by technical measures on some of the download methods? If I've got it right, the "play on demand" files are deleted (or at least made inaccessible) on the server after 7 days. The downloaded files cannot be played after 30 days, so I would *hope* iPlayer deletes them rather than leaving them around ... Aren't we allowed reasonable timeshifting for limited purposes? (Why should get-iplayer be treated differently to recording the same things off of VirginMedia's on-demand service?) Define "reasonable". How long is a piece of string? Wouldn't the above data loss be a grave bug in the sense of http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities ? Refusing to play would be better, although get-iplayer doesn't necessarily do the playback, so I'm not sure that's feasible. If get-iplayer doesn't do any playback, then I'm not sure there's any way to enforce the restrictions. But if get-iplayer is meant to emulate iplayer, then I wouldn't call emulating its "delete out-of-date files" a bug - a "feature" maybe, but I still think respecting other peoples' copyrights and conditions by default is the correct way to go ... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: DRM legal advice
"Anthony W. Youngman" wrote: > In message <49ae6b15.fqybgcvyp1ig7h3c%...@phonecoop.coop>, MJ Ray > writes [...] > >Do the copyright terms of things on iplayer actually have expiry > >dates, or is that something merely enforced by technical measures on > >some of the download methods? > > If I've got it right, the "play on demand" files are deleted (or at > least made inaccessible) on the server after 7 days. The downloaded > files cannot be played after 30 days, so I would *hope* iPlayer deletes > them rather than leaving them around ... Where did 7 and 30 days come from? The terms I just found at http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/about_iplayer/termscon say "5. In order to meet the BBC's obligations to rights holders, the BBC will embed downloadable BBC with digital rights management security. The expiry date for the BBC Content that you download will vary according to the agreements BBC has with rights holders of that content. BBC Content will be automatically deleted from your computer once its expiry date has been reached." Does the BBC Content downloaded by get-iplayer have such an embedded expiry date? I don't know whether those terms apply to the BBC Content if used alone, or only if used in combination with BBC's Download Manager. > >Aren't we allowed reasonable timeshifting for limited purposes? > >(Why should get-iplayer be treated differently to recording the same > >things off of VirginMedia's on-demand service?) > > Define "reasonable". How long is a piece of string? I looked it up and "reasonable" for this is "solely for the purpose of enabling it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time" (Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 1988 (c.48) section 70). http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk (when will they offer nice permalinks?) I think it's not for us to quantify "reasonable" in software here. > >Wouldn't the above data loss be a grave bug in the sense of > >http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities ? > >Refusing to play would be better, although get-iplayer doesn't > >necessarily do the playback, so I'm not sure that's feasible. > > > If get-iplayer doesn't do any playback, then I'm not sure there's any > way to enforce the restrictions. I've been playing back the downloads in Totem because that was what happened by default. get-iplayer could scan downloads whenever it's run, but wouldn't that be a grave bug? > But if get-iplayer is meant to emulate iplayer, then I wouldn't call > emulating its "delete out-of-date files" a bug - a "feature" maybe, but > I still think respecting other peoples' copyrights and conditions by > default is the correct way to go ... It's not at all clear to me which conditions apply here: the iPlayer terms, the statements in the CDP Act or something else? Timeshifting doesn't fail to respect their copyright - our law explicitly says it's not infringement. Hope that explains, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: DRM legal advice
In message <49aed85f.5nvvciqyno+9xuyd%...@phonecoop.coop>, MJ Ray writes "Anthony W. Youngman" wrote: In message <49ae6b15.fqybgcvyp1ig7h3c%...@phonecoop.coop>, MJ Ray writes [...] >Do the copyright terms of things on iplayer actually have expiry >dates, or is that something merely enforced by technical measures on >some of the download methods? If I've got it right, the "play on demand" files are deleted (or at least made inaccessible) on the server after 7 days. The downloaded files cannot be played after 30 days, so I would *hope* iPlayer deletes them rather than leaving them around ... Where did 7 and 30 days come from? The terms I just found at http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/about_iplayer/termscon say "5. In order to meet the BBC's obligations to rights holders, the BBC will embed downloadable BBC with digital rights management security. The expiry date for the BBC Content that you download will vary according to the agreements BBC has with rights holders of that content. BBC Content will be automatically deleted from your computer once its expiry date has been reached." Unless it's changed ... iirc content was available on the bbc web site for 7 days after it was transmitted, and if downloaded to your pc would remain playable for 30 days after it was transmitted. From what you say, it sounds like it may have changed... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
