Re: TPP 14.17
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Paul Wise wrote: > I expect the FSF/FSFE/SFC/SFLC are all looking at what this means for > Free Software. The SFC concur with Steve Langasek: https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2015/nov/09/gpl-tpp/ -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: TPP 14.17
Glenn McGrath writes: > Ok, thanks, i think i see; there is layer of abstraction. > > The country can not requiring the transfer of source code, > The country can allow a person to require the transfer of source code. Well, if you broaden “a person” to include any entity *except* a state, then yes. In other words: Think like a transnational corporation lobbying the TPP negotiators, and this distinction makes much more sense. Corporations have no interest in treaties that will restrict them in any way; so the TPP is not designed to have that effect. Corporations are not parties to the treaty; states are. The wording is specifically that *parties to the treaty* (which includes no corporation) are restricted in the terms they can enforce. Corporations, meanwhile, can continue restricting people as much as they could before. > I imagine high priced lawyers will disagree. That is no doubt true. -- \ “The future always arrives too fast, and in the wrong order.” | `\—Alvin Toffler | _o__) | Ben Finney
Re: TPP 14.17
Ok, thanks, i think i see; there is layer of abstraction. The country can not requiring the transfer of source code, The country can allow a person to require the transfer of source code. I imagine high priced lawyers will disagree. On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: > On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 11:53:23AM +1100, Glenn McGrath wrote: > > hmm, i would equate copying with distribtion, but i guess im old and > rusty; > > > > Where am i going wrong with this line of thinking > > > > 1. The GPL requires the ability to distribute source code to those you > > distribute binaries to. > > 2. This clause says; No Party (Country) can require the transfer of ... > > source code of software owned by a person of another Party (Country) as a > > condition for the ... distribution ... of such software in its territory. > > > Assume i copy a Debian install CD and give it to my neighbour, i am > > obligated to make the Source code available to them for the GPL'ed parts. > > The source code will be "software owned be a person of another Party" > > > So no party can require me to uphold my obligation make source code > > available in its territory. > > Meaning, nobody can force me to give the source code to my neighbour. > > No. The TPP is a horrible treaty and no country should ratify it; however, > the above text doesn't prohibit free software. It says that a *party to > the > treaty* (country) cannot oblige another party to provide their source code > as a condition of distributing in its territory. In the case of free > software, the country is not imposing a requirement to make source > available; it is only enforcing the *software license's* requirement to > make > source available. > > -- > Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS > Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. > Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ > slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org >
Re: TPP 14.17
On Sat, Nov 07, 2015 at 11:53:23AM +1100, Glenn McGrath wrote: > hmm, i would equate copying with distribtion, but i guess im old and rusty; > > Where am i going wrong with this line of thinking > > 1. The GPL requires the ability to distribute source code to those you > distribute binaries to. > 2. This clause says; No Party (Country) can require the transfer of ... > source code of software owned by a person of another Party (Country) as a > condition for the ... distribution ... of such software in its territory. > Assume i copy a Debian install CD and give it to my neighbour, i am > obligated to make the Source code available to them for the GPL'ed parts. > The source code will be "software owned be a person of another Party" > So no party can require me to uphold my obligation make source code > available in its territory. > Meaning, nobody can force me to give the source code to my neighbour. No. The TPP is a horrible treaty and no country should ratify it; however, the above text doesn't prohibit free software. It says that a *party to the treaty* (country) cannot oblige another party to provide their source code as a condition of distributing in its territory. In the case of free software, the country is not imposing a requirement to make source available; it is only enforcing the *software license's* requirement to make source available. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: TPP 14.17
On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Glenn McGrath wrote: > The TPP has a clause that seems to me to be a direct attack on copyleft > licences. Some more discussion of this issue: http://keionline.org/node/2363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10519031 I expect the FSF/FSFE/SFC/SFLC are all looking at what this means for Free Software. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: TPP 14.17
hmm, i would equate copying with distribtion, but i guess im old and rusty; Where am i going wrong with this line of thinking 1. The GPL requires the ability to distribute source code to those you distribute binaries to. 2. This clause says; No Party (Country) can require the transfer of ... source code of software owned by a person of another Party (Country) as a condition for the ... distribution ... of such software in its territory. Assume i copy a Debian install CD and give it to my neighbour, i am obligated to make the Source code available to them for the GPL'ed parts. The source code will be "software owned be a person of another Party" So no party can require me to uphold my obligation make source code available in its territory. Meaning, nobody can force me to give the source code to my neighbour. On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Walter Landry wrote: > Glenn McGrath wrote: > > Hi all; > > > > The TPP has a clause that seems to me to be a direct attack on copyleft > > licences. > > > > Hoping someone can tell me i am wrong, and everything will be ok. > > > > Article 14.17: Source Code > > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code > > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for > > the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of > > products containing such software, in its territory. > > It does not cover modification or copying. You can still require > source code if you want to modify and/or copy. So I think it is fine. > > Cheers, > Walter Landry >
Re: TPP 14.17
Glenn McGrath wrote: > Hi all; > > The TPP has a clause that seems to me to be a direct attack on copyleft > licences. > > Hoping someone can tell me i am wrong, and everything will be ok. > > Article 14.17: Source Code > 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code > of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for > the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of > products containing such software, in its territory. It does not cover modification or copying. You can still require source code if you want to modify and/or copy. So I think it is fine. Cheers, Walter Landry
TPP 14.17
Hi all; The TPP has a clause that seems to me to be a direct attack on copyleft licences. Hoping someone can tell me i am wrong, and everything will be ok. Article 14.17: Source Code 1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory. (Including the rest of this section for completeness) 2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1 is limited to mass-market software or products containing such software and does not include software used for critical infrastructure. 3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude: (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts; or (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of software necessary for that software to comply with laws or regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement. 4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or practice of a Party." http://www.mfat.govt.nz/downloads/trade-agreement/transpacific/TPP-text/14.%20Electronic%20Commerce%20Chapter.pdf
