Bug#771191: Bug#771126: Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jonas Smedegaard (2014-12-03 11:33:17)
> Quoting Fabian Greffrath (2014-12-03 08:56:41)
>> Am Dienstag, den 02.12.2014, 23:29 +0100 schrieb Bastien ROUCARIES:
>>> And offencive (sexist) for 50% of the population the women... 
>>
>> Now it's getting really ridiculous. Gosh, it's a picture of a woman!
>
> I disagree with you.
>
> Honestly, when you mentioned you'd replaced with a photo of your own, 
> I got very curious and checked if you'd made a self-portrait posing 
> similarly - looking over your shoulder and into the camera with an 
> invitation in the eyes.  You chose food.
>
> Had you done that (in an honest attempt, inspired by but without 
> making fun on the original), your comment now would have more meaning 
> to me.

Whoops - sorry: I mixed up you and Reinhard. :-(


 - Jonas

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Bug#771191: Bug#771126: Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Fabian Greffrath (2014-12-03 08:56:41)
> Am Dienstag, den 02.12.2014, 23:29 +0100 schrieb Bastien ROUCARIES:
>> And offencive (sexist) for 50% of the population the women... 
>
> Now it's getting really ridiculous. Gosh, it's a picture of a woman!

I disagree with you.

Honestly, when you mentioned you'd replaced with a photo of your own, I 
got very curious and checked if you'd made a self-portrait posing 
similarly - looking over your shoulder and into the camera with an 
invitation in the eyes.  You chose food.

Had you done that (in an honest attempt, inspired by but without making 
fun on the original), your comment now would have more meaning to me.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Bug#771191: Bug#771126: Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Russ Allbery]

Fabian Greffrath  writes:
> Am Dienstag, den 02.12.2014, 23:29 +0100 schrieb Bastien ROUCARIES:

>> And offencive (sexist) for 50% of the population the women... 

> Now it's getting really ridiculous. Gosh, it's a picture of a woman!

Er, no, it's not just a picture of a woman.  It's a cropped Playboy
centerfold.  In other words, it's a porn shot (if one from the fairly
artistic side of that spectrum) that's been cropped to remove the explicit
sexual content.  The image itself is one thing; the surrounding context of
the image makes it a bit worse.

Obviously, in terms of great problems facing the world, this isn't the
worst.  But having the standard test picture for image software be a porn
image does send certain messages, and they're probably not messages that
we (by which I mean the general software and tech industry as a whole)
actually want to be sending.  This is not a problem of Debian's creation,
and we can't fix the world, but insofar as we can contribute to not
sending those messages, I think that makes the world, and Debian, a better
place.

Thank you very much to Reinhard for doing the irritating and tedious work
of starting to replace it.  It feels like a distraction from other work
and a thankless task, I know, but small things like this really do make
people happier and help people in tiny ways.  Software became a bit less
off-putting, a bit less locked into a particular model of how genders are
"supposed" to interact, and a tiny bit more welcoming.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Bug#771191: Bug#771126: Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Fabian Greffrath]

Am Dienstag, den 02.12.2014, 23:29 +0100 schrieb Bastien ROUCARIES:
> And offencive (sexist) for 50% of the population the women... 

Now it's getting really ridiculous. Gosh, it's a picture of a woman!

- Fabian


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Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Bastien ROUCARIES]

Le 2 déc. 2014 14:15, "Reinhard Tartler"  a écrit :
>
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Niels Thykier  wrote:
> > Control: tags -1 -wheezy-ignore
> >
> > On 2014-11-27 23:23, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> >> Quoting Niels Thykier (2014-11-27 22:14:25)
> >>> [...]
> >>
> >> In prior similar bugreport  -
> >> referenced from  - distribution is
> >> documented as permitted only "for research and education" which I
> >> interpret as unacceptable for Debian.
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>  - Jonas
> >>
>
> FTR, this whole business feel incredibly silly. lena.pnm  has become
> the *de-facto* standard image for every CS student to do his graphics
> courses homework on, and is generally considered to public domain,

And offencive (sexist) for 50% of the population the women...

Bastien
> even without proper documentation. The copyright holder is going to
> have a very hard time enforcing his right if he wanted to prevent
> distribution of the image, in particular the low-quality scan that is
> being used in the Libav source package. Also, even according to
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lenna.png#Licensing, the holder is
> not interested in that to begin with. - I mean, really, don't we have
> more important things to do?
>
> Nevertheless, lena.pnm lacks proper licensing and some argue it
> violates the DFSG, so I've taken the effort (and ridicule!) to replace
> lena.pnm upstream with a new image reference.pnm, which I have
> personally taken this summer and upon Jonas' suggestion provide it
> under the expat license. This required to update all test reference
> patterns, which took  most of the effort and is basically not
> verifiable.
>
> Jonas, would you mind taking over from here and upload
> https://libav.org/releases/libav-11.1.tar.xz
>
> to unstable?
>
> Otherwise I can see if I can get to that this weekend.
>
> Regarding stable: I've backported this change back to release/0.8
> upstream. In the past, the security team has accepted libav point
> releases in wheezy-security, and I trust that this is also an
> acceptable change. It will be part of the next upload to
> stable-security. (this may take some more weeks, as libav has been
> notified about a couple of more CVEs, which need to be tested, fixed
> and verified, which is incredibly laborsome to do correctly).
>
> Does this plan work for everyone?
>
> --
> regards,
> Reinhard
>

Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Reinhard Tartler (2014-12-02 14:11:19)

>> On 2014-11-27 23:23, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>> In prior similar bugreport  - 
>>> referenced from  - distribution 
>>> is documented as permitted only "for research and education" which I 
>>> interpret as unacceptable for Debian.

> FTR, this whole business feel incredibly silly.

Welcome to the Real World: Some stuff is incredibly stupid, yet Real.


> lena.pnm has become the *de-facto* standard image for every CS student 
> to do his graphics courses homework on,

Proprietary operating systems, word processors and spreadsheet editors 
have become the *de-facto* standard e.g. for most public servants in the 
World.  Incredibly silly as free (and technically superior) alternatives 
exist.  But this bugreport is about DFSG...


> The copyright holder is going to have a very hard time enforcing his 
> right if he wanted to prevent distribution of the image,

DFSG is is about Debian respecting copyright and licensing (no matter if 
difficult for copyright holders to defend or enforce their rights).

(perhaps you confuse copyright and licensing with trademarks or patents, 
in some cases considered irrelevant for Debian to care about)


> Jonas, would you mind taking over from here and upload 
> https://libav.org/releases/libav-11.1.tar.xz
>
> to unstable?

I don't mind doing the technical work of packaging, but prefer if 
someone else takes to dialogue with release team about freeze exception, 
as I don't have the stomach for that (no blame on the release team for 
that!).

I also don't mind doing the additional technical work of cherry-picking 
only the fix for this bug and apply to 6:11-2 currently targeted Jessie.

Which of those to do would probably need input from the person willing 
to do the negotiation with release team, however.  So I await someone 
volunteering for that (and while waiting will prepare that new upstream 
release, and if noone have appeared before done release it targeted 
experimental).


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Bug#771191: Bug#771126: libav/tests/lena.pnm: also not mentioned in debian/copyright

[Reinhard Tartler]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Niels Thykier  wrote:
> Control: tags -1 -wheezy-ignore
>
> On 2014-11-27 23:23, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Quoting Niels Thykier (2014-11-27 22:14:25)
>>> [...]
>>
>> In prior similar bugreport  -
>> referenced from  - distribution is
>> documented as permitted only "for research and education" which I
>> interpret as unacceptable for Debian.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>  - Jonas
>>

FTR, this whole business feel incredibly silly. lena.pnm  has become
the *de-facto* standard image for every CS student to do his graphics
courses homework on, and is generally considered to public domain,
even without proper documentation. The copyright holder is going to
have a very hard time enforcing his right if he wanted to prevent
distribution of the image, in particular the low-quality scan that is
being used in the Libav source package. Also, even according to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lenna.png#Licensing, the holder is
not interested in that to begin with. - I mean, really, don't we have
more important things to do?

Nevertheless, lena.pnm lacks proper licensing and some argue it
violates the DFSG, so I've taken the effort (and ridicule!) to replace
lena.pnm upstream with a new image reference.pnm, which I have
personally taken this summer and upon Jonas' suggestion provide it
under the expat license. This required to update all test reference
patterns, which took  most of the effort and is basically not
verifiable.

Jonas, would you mind taking over from here and upload
https://libav.org/releases/libav-11.1.tar.xz

to unstable?

Otherwise I can see if I can get to that this weekend.

Regarding stable: I've backported this change back to release/0.8
upstream. In the past, the security team has accepted libav point
releases in wheezy-security, and I trust that this is also an
acceptable change. It will be part of the next upload to
stable-security. (this may take some more weeks, as libav has been
notified about a couple of more CVEs, which need to be tested, fixed
and verified, which is incredibly laborsome to do correctly).

Does this plan work for everyone?

-- 
regards,
Reinhard


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