Re: jessie-updates gone
Hi Ben, On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 03:32:10PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: > On Wed, 2019-04-03 at 00:02 +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > > Personally I'm not bothered either way about whether > > "-updates" remains something that can be in sources.list > > without causing update errors, but I am more concerned that a lot of > > users may have ended up transitioning to LTS without realising that, > > and wonder if there is any good way to help reduce that. > > I don't think this is the big problem that you think it is. I'm not sure how big of a problem it is especially when I'm not the one who would make any changes, and whoever does will have a list of other things they want to work on. As I say I was just wondering if there is anything simple that can be done to help reduce the number of these users. But I gather that you either don't feel it is a problem or else it's not one that justifies making any changes, and I accept you will know better than I so I will stop going on about it now! Cheers, Andy
Re: jessie-updates gone
Hi Ben, On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 12:23:46AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: > Debian LTS is a team within Debian. It's separate from the main > security team and the stable release managers, but it is no less part > of Debian. Sure, I do understand that. My employer is one of the LTS sponsors. However what I am saying is, there are clearly quite a few users of Debian who were surprised and confused about jessie-updates going away. I think that means those users also did not know that they transitioned from relying on the security team and release managers to the LTS team. Clearly the LTS team cannot provide the same level of support, so wouldn't you agree that it is important that users realise when they go from one state to another? > The transition to extended support by the LTS team has always been > announced, in any case: Absolutely, but these users did not read those announcements, or else I think they wouldn't have been so confused by jessie-updates going away. The majority of end user posts about this that I have seen have not been saying, "this is annoying, just make it stop", they have been more like, "what is going on? Is my sources.list incorrect?" i.e. I'm not convinced these posts are coming from people who read any of the various announcement emails. I've supported a couple of my own users with questions about the apt update errors and none them knew what LTS was or that they had already been using it for nearly a year. From their point of view while "apt update" continued to work without complaint, they were enjoying full Debian support. I have a feeling this wrong impression may be quite common. So, various people are asking for an empty jessie-updates to be put back because of all the confused users and the need to make changes to sources.list. I am asking: a) doesn't that suggest that many or all of these users missed that they transitioned to LTS back in June 2018, and only noticed that something was amiss now that jessie-updates has gone? b) if in future Debian does leave an empty stretch-updates then doesn't that mean that these users will continue being blissfully unaware for an even longer period of time? c) if getting warnings from "apt update" does seem to be an effective final way to reach such users, would it be a good idea to find a way to have apt tell them about their transition into LTS? Personally I'm not bothered either way about whether "-updates" remains something that can be in sources.list without causing update errors, but I am more concerned that a lot of users may have ended up transitioning to LTS without realising that, and wonder if there is any good way to help reduce that. Cheers, Andy
Re: jessie-updates gone
Hi Matus, On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 08:17:54PM +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > >On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 03:09:03PM +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > >>On 02.04.19 10:59, Andy Smith wrote: > >So are you really saying that your proposed solution is just to tell > >people who aren't currently reading announcements and are not running > >check-support-status to try harder? > > I'm trying to say that people using LTS should not notice ot of nothing that > the -updates archive is now gone. That should happen after LTS is over. Sure but you are aware that every Debian user becomes an LTS user when -updates stops being a source of point releases and further updates end up in /updates, right? I am not talking about telling *LTS* users anything. I am asking how is an uninformed user of Debian supposed to know that they are no longer supported by Debian, but only by LTS? That they have in fact *become* an LTS user? In this instance they got the hint because jessie-updates went away. The proposal is to not make jessie-updates go away but instead just empty it. Then these users will not get informed. While there is no proposal on how to get the word to these users, I would argue it is best to continue removing -updates when it is done with. I would rather there was a better way to communicate with users though, that does not require them to subscribe to mailing lists or run optional commands. As to the separate issue of whether to keep an empty -updates to silence complaints from "apt update", I don't really care either way. I use config management so removing it everywhere is pretty trivial. :) Cheers, Andy
Re: jessie-updates gone
Hi Matus, On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 03:09:03PM +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > On 02.04.19 10:59, Andy Smith wrote: > >The alternative is that those users continue using Debian without > >realising that their packages stopped being supported by the > >maintainers and security team and are now supported by LTS alone. > > this should happen when LTS is over, not before. > also, there's check-support-status for unsupported packages. Sorry I am not sure I follow. Miroslav said, "led thousands of users to ask themselves what was wrong with their apt update". I cannot personally say that I saw thousands, but I did see tens (some of which are my users that I support), which suggests there are quite a lot more of these users that we don't see. You understand that these users do not currently read the announcements about support life times and do not currently run check-support-status, right? Otherwise they would not have been confused about what happened with jessie-updates. So are you really saying that your proposed solution is just to tell people who aren't currently reading announcements and are not running check-support-status to try harder? I can't help thinking that this will not be effective in reaching any of those users. So the situation remains that either these uninformed users will be complained at about -updates by "apt update", or else they will continue to use without knowing that it is no longer supported by package maintainers and security team. Which outcome is worse, for those users? When you say, "this should happen when LTS is over, not before" are you saying that you don't feel it is important that people know when support passes from maintainers+security to LTS alone, only when even LTS has ended? If so then I'm afraid I don't agree. Speaking as one of the LTS sponsors I think it is important that users know what Debian LTS is, how it is funded and what its limitations are. Otherwise people will, by human nature, just assume it is still supported the same. Cheers, Andy
Re: jessie-updates gone
Hi Miroslav, On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 11:53:50AM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote: > On 4/1/19 8:14 PM, Andy Smith wrote: > > >I do understand that re-adding an empty jessie-updates directory > >will silence a lot of warnings from apt update, and thus would avoid > >the questions from end users that I have seen in a lot of places, > >but… I can't help thinking that although it is bad that these users > >were confused, at least they now understand that the level of > >support has changed. > > -1 > > Programmers' decision that led thousands of users to ask themselves what was > wrong with their apt update was a very bad marketing for Debian. The alternative is that those users continue using Debian without realising that their packages stopped being supported by the maintainers and security team and are now supported by LTS alone. Is that a better outcome? Cheers, Andy
Re: jessie-updates gone
Hello, On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 03:50:05PM +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > On 01.04.19 13:40, Holger Levsen wrote: > >this is gone: > > > >deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main > > formerly volatile. > > We have asked if it's going to be re-added, even if empty, to avoid people > using jessie from seeing errors when updateing package lists. > > do I have to fill a bugreport to get it back? I do understand that re-adding an empty jessie-updates directory will silence a lot of warnings from apt update, and thus would avoid the questions from end users that I have seen in a lot of places, but… I can't help thinking that although it is bad that these users were confused, at least they now understand that the level of support has changed. Is there not a risk in future that these people will merrily go on using an empty buster-updates without ever realising that they are using a distribution with updates only from the LTS project? I don't know what the answer is other than having apt itself show a warning about the levels of support changing, but until we work out a better solution, isn't having the -updates suite go away at least a final chance to get the user's attention? How about a package update at the cut-over point with a NEWS changelog saying something like, "this distribution is now only supported by LTS; you should upgrade to continue to enjoy the usual level of support. For more information about the LTS project please see: https://…; ? Cheers, Andy
