Re: Flash in debian

[Paul Wise]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:

> By the way, do you think SVG worth attention?

Definitely, historically it wasn't well supported in web browsers,
that seems to be improving though.

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Re: Flash in debian

[Dmitry Smirnov]

Hi Paul,

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:13:34 Paul Wise wrote:
> I say Flash needs to die in a fire.
> 
> If you have upstreams who have Flash components, please spend your
> time working on transitioning them to JavaScript, the new HTML5 tags
> (audio, video, canvas etc) and other new web technologies (like
> WebRTC, WAC, W3C Device APIs). Don't waste one moment on Flash, run
> away as fast as you are able.

Thank you for expressing this in such an eloquent and straightforward manner 
:) I'm with you, wholeheartedly.

By the way, do you think SVG worth attention?

> 
> Of course, everyone is free to work on whatever they want, but I
> strongly suggest working on Flash is a waste of time.

So true.

> If anyone wants to actively work on killing Flash, check out this site:
> 
> http://occupyflash.org/

Thanks for the link.

Cheers,
Dmitry.


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Re: Flash in debian

[Mike Dupont]

This is great, I have joined the fight
http://occupyflash.org/
mike
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Paul Wise  wrote:
> As someone who has worked on Flash stuff in Debian (I maintain mtasc,
> flasm), I say Flash needs to die in a fire.



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Re: Flash in debian

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Christian Welzel wrote:

> what are the chances to get packages into debian main that contain
> (mainly) Flash code? Its mostly ActionScript 3 code which cannot
> compiled with tools from debian main (mtasc is only capable of AS2),
> flex-sdk is not in debian at all. The source would be included (and
> GPL, MIT or BSD) and the precompiled swf would be in the packages.

As someone who has worked on Flash stuff in Debian (I maintain mtasc,
flasm), I say Flash needs to die in a fire.

If you have upstreams who have Flash components, please spend your
time working on transitioning them to JavaScript, the new HTML5 tags
(audio, video, canvas etc) and other new web technologies (like
WebRTC, WAC, W3C Device APIs). Don't waste one moment on Flash, run
away as fast as you are able.

Of course, everyone is free to work on whatever they want, but I
strongly suggest working on Flash is a waste of time.

If anyone wants to actively work on killing Flash, check out this site:

http://occupyflash.org/

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Re: Flash in debian

[Arno Töll]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

On 28.01.2012 22:33, Christian Welzel wrote:
> Is it because of they cannot be build by tools in main or because of
> other reasons?

just that. Refer to the Debian Policy 2.2.1 [1]. Packages in main "must
not require a package outside of main for compilation or execution".
That's why Flash files aren't acceptable for main, as there is no free
compiler, nor a free (and complete) interpreter.

It's not because the compiled binary format is proprietary.

[1] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-main

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Re: Flash in debian

[Christian Welzel]

Am 28.01.2012 21:20, schrieb Alexander Reichle-Schmehl:


That's also the stance of the ftp team:  swf-files, even their source is
available and licendes under a DFSG-free license, are consider not
suitable for main.  We regularily reject packages because of that.


Is it because of they cannot be build by tools in main or because of
other reasons?


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Re: Flash in debian

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Hi!

* Mike Dupont  [120128 19:14]:
> Well in general I would opposed including any sources that cannot be
> built using free and approved tools, that is basically saying there is
> no source, or no means to get from source to binary.
> 
> lets imagine that you have rebol, a language that has no specification
> and no source code, you can release a rebol package and say :" it is
> free software" , but you should not be able to  make a free debian
> package with that in my humble opinion because it would no be
> buildable.

That's also the stance of the ftp team:  swf-files, even their source is
available and licendes under a DFSG-free license, are consider not
suitable for main.  We regularily reject packages because of that.
Usually the source is repacked and the swf files are removed.


> also, we are on the mentors list, are we really going to mentor
> non-free software and use up our time resources for helping people
> package non free software?

"We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of works that do
not conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines.  [..] Thus, although
non-free works are not a part of Debian, we support their use and
provide infrastructure for non-free packages (such as our bug tracking
system and mailing lists)." Debian Social contract, Number 5.

However, if you don't like non-free / contrib software, you are free to
ignore the discussions about them.


Best Regards,
  Alexander


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Re: Flash in debian

[Gabriele Giacone]

On 01/28/2012 02:09 PM, Christian Welzel wrote:
> A free runtime would be gnash.

If swf is AS3 (AVM2), runtime can't be gnash cause it plays AS2 (AVM1)
only. Your player would be lightspark if able.

http://wiki.gnashdev.org/FAQ#What_should_gnash_play

By the way, besides flex-sdk, you might try as3compile from swftools.
Swftools has been removed time ago due to unsolved security issues
related to xpdf. It might be readded by fixing them or by removing pdf
stuff.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2010/07/msg00249.html


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Re: Flash in debian

[Russ Allbery]

Mike  Dupont  writes:

> also, we are on the mentors list, are we really going to mentor non-free
> software and use up our time resources for helping people package non
> free software?

Yes, some of us do, when it's something useful.  I like having video
drivers for my graphics card, for example.

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Re: Flash in debian

[Mike Dupont]

Well in general I would opposed including any sources that cannot be
built using free and approved tools, that is basically saying there is
no source, or no means to get from source to binary.

lets imagine that you have rebol, a language that has no specification
and no source code, you can release a rebol package and say :" it is
free software" , but you should not be able to  make a free debian
package with that in my humble opinion because it would no be
buildable.

also, we are on the mentors list, are we really going to mentor
non-free software and use up our time resources for helping people
package non free software?

thanks,
mike

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Christian Welzel  wrote:
> Am 28.01.2012 17:24, schrieb The Fungi:
>
>
>> your package might be suitable for contrib until such time as
>> flex-sdk enters main. It would probably make more sense to just wait
>
>
> If the packages cannot build their swf from source in lack of flex-sdk
> they can be uploaded to contrib, as long as all sources are included
> and the licenses are compatible, can't they?
>
> Is it possible for a package in main to depend/suggest on a package in
> contrib (non-free)?
>
>
>
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Re: Flash in debian

[The Fungi]

On 2012-01-28 08:50:32 -0800 (-0800), Joey Parrish wrote:
[...]
> As it stood from Adobe, you had to get the source from SVN, but it
> was full of 1) binaries, 2) forked versions of standard Java libs,
> and 3) outdated versions of standard Java libs. All of these
> things were required in some mix to get the thing to build, and
> all of them are problematic. Adobe builds their binaries in a very
> specific cygwin environment, from what I've been able to discern.
[...]

Certainly doesn't make me want to use Flash for anything I write
(not that there's any shortage of other reasons to feel that way
already).
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Re: Flash in debian

[Christian Welzel]

Am 28.01.2012 17:24, schrieb The Fungi:


your package might be suitable for contrib until such time as
flex-sdk enters main. It would probably make more sense to just wait


If the packages cannot build their swf from source in lack of flex-sdk
they can be uploaded to contrib, as long as all sources are included
and the licenses are compatible, can't they?

Is it possible for a package in main to depend/suggest on a package in
contrib (non-free)?


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Re: Flash in debian

[Joey Parrish]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 08:24, The Fungi  wrote:
> On 2012-01-28 17:14:46 +0100 (+0100), Christian Welzel wrote:
> [...]
> > flex-sdk is licensed unter MPL 1.1
> [...]
>
> It's actually the above assertion which is in question and in the
> process of being verified, based on my reading.
>
> > The problem is, that the MPL-licensed flex-sdk is not (yet) packaged
> > for debian
> [...]
>
> And it appears the submitter of that ITP is in contact with Adobe as
> of a few weeks ago to hopefully resolve contradictory licensing
> statements. IF flex-sdk does turn out to be MPL as suggested, then
> your package might be suitable for contrib until such time as
> flex-sdk enters main. It would probably make more sense to just wait
> and see how that discussion with Adobe plays out first though.

The people from Adobe never gave me a solid answer.  I was told
"probably, most likely we made a mistake in the license file, which
we've done in the past, but let me get back to you."  Then they turned
the whole project over to Apache.

The issue was also two-fold.  Not only was the wrong license file in
the binary distribution, but the binaries can't be built from source
on Debian.  I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I suspect that it's
not going to be feasible to build a flex-sdk binary from source until
after Apache is done absorbing the project and cleaning it up.  As it
stood from Adobe, you had to get the source from SVN, but it was full
of 1) binaries, 2) forked versions of standard Java libs, and 3)
outdated versions of standard Java libs.  All of these things were
required in some mix to get the thing to build, and all of them are
problematic.  Adobe builds their binaries in a very specific cygwin
environment, from what I've been able to discern.

So I've given up on my contact at Adobe, who has rarely ever replied
to me at all, and never with more than a few vague words.  I'm waiting
on Apache to clean up the project to where we can finally build it in
a sane way in Debian.

I had a version of the flex-sdk package that was not built from
source, but just used Adobe's binaries and put them all in a path that
lintian didn't like.  It's the only way I was able to get any success
with the thing in it's Adobe-provided state.  Nobody would sponsor it.

--Joey


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Re: Flash in debian

[The Fungi]

On 2012-01-28 17:14:46 +0100 (+0100), Christian Welzel wrote:
[...]
> flex-sdk is licensed unter MPL 1.1
[...]

It's actually the above assertion which is in question and in the
process of being verified, based on my reading.

> The problem is, that the MPL-licensed flex-sdk is not (yet) packaged
> for debian
[...]

And it appears the submitter of that ITP is in contact with Adobe as
of a few weeks ago to hopefully resolve contradictory licensing
statements. IF flex-sdk does turn out to be MPL as suggested, then
your package might be suitable for contrib until such time as
flex-sdk enters main. It would probably make more sense to just wait
and see how that discussion with Adobe plays out first though.
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Re: Flash in debian

[Mike Dupont]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Christian Welzel  wrote:
> Am 28.01.2012 16:01, schrieb Mike Dupont:
>
>
>> I hope that is clear, this idea will not get far. Proprietary software
>> has very short legs around here.
>
>
> Neither ActionScript 3 (ECMAScript) nor flex-sdk nor the tools i have
> in mind are propertary. flex-sdk is licensed unter MPL 1.1, the tools
> are all GPL/MIT/BSD.
> The problem is, that the MPL-licensed flex-sdk is not (yet) packaged
> for debian (see http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=602499)
>
ok then, so get those packaged first or package them up with your
modules and I will review them
mike


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Re: Flash in debian

[Christian Welzel]

Am 28.01.2012 16:01, schrieb Mike Dupont:


I hope that is clear, this idea will not get far. Proprietary software
has very short legs around here.


Neither ActionScript 3 (ECMAScript) nor flex-sdk nor the tools i have
in mind are propertary. flex-sdk is licensed unter MPL 1.1, the tools
are all GPL/MIT/BSD.
The problem is, that the MPL-licensed flex-sdk is not (yet) packaged
for debian (see http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=602499)



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Re: Flash in debian

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Mike  Dupont
 wrote:
> We are not just talking about running here.
> people need to have the freedom to change the code, and not be tied to
> some vendor.

For Debian Main, not non-free.


> we need to have all the sources needed to be able to compile all the
> tools needed to change the code.

the flash game might be free. It could be the case that this can live
in contrib.

> I will not support any debian package that can only be changed on
> windows with some adobe software.

Me neither. Please read section 5 of the Debian social contract[1]

And I quoth:

We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of works that do
not conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created
contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works.

> I hope that is clear, this idea will not get far. Proprietary software
> has very short legs around here.

Not in Non-free. Also, he never said anything about the flash being
proprietary.

>
> mike
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Christian Welzel  wrote:
>> . As long as there is a Flash-Runtime,
>> an swf can be executed. A free runtime would be gnash.
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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[1]: http://www.debian.org/social_contract

-- 
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#define sizeof(x) rand()
:wq


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Re: Flash in debian

[Mike Dupont]

We are not just talking about running here.
people need to have the freedom to change the code, and not be tied to
some vendor.
we need to have all the sources needed to be able to compile all the
tools needed to change the code.
I will not support any debian package that can only be changed on
windows with some adobe software.
I hope that is clear, this idea will not get far. Proprietary software
has very short legs around here.

mike

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Christian Welzel  wrote:
> . As long as there is a Flash-Runtime,
> an swf can be executed. A free runtime would be gnash.



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Re: Flash in debian

[Christian Welzel]

Am 28.01.2012 13:47, schrieb Timo Juhani Lindfors:


I doubt that, everything in main needs to be buildable with tools in
main. What tools can build this?


flex-sdk would be able to build this -> ITP: 602499
There is no way to build swf from ActionScript 3 in debian, but many (if
not most) web-applications use flash in some extend to provide services
to there users (eg. file upload, video embedding, svg emulation).
All of them have to be crippled in functionality or not distributed in
debian at all...


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Re: Flash in debian

[Christian Welzel]

Am 28.01.2012 13:41, schrieb Mike Dupont:

Sounds like a very bad idea. How would you compile it then?
how would you port it to some crazy system, for example itanium who knows?


swf run in the Flash-Browser-Plugin and are not tied to some
architecture of some crazy machine. As long as there is a Flash-Runtime,
an swf can be executed. A free runtime would be gnash.


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Re: Flash in debian

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Christian Welzel  writes:
> what are the chances to get packages into debian main that contain

I doubt that, everything in main needs to be buildable with tools in
main. What tools can build this?



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Re: Flash in debian

[Mike Dupont]

Sounds like a very bad idea. How would you compile it then?
how would you port it to some crazy system, for example itanium who knows?
mike

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Christian Welzel  wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> what are the chances to get packages into debian main that contain
> (mainly) Flash code? Its mostly ActionScript 3 code which cannot
> compiled with tools from debian main (mtasc is only capable of AS2),
> flex-sdk is not in debian at all. The source would be included (and
> GPL, MIT or BSD) and the precompiled swf would be in the packages.
>
>
>
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James Michael DuPont
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