Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Le mardi, 22 septembre 2015, 13.47:31 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:27:53AM -0400, Sam Hartman a écrit :
> > Hi.  I've been debating how to respond to the shall vs must thing. 
> > The short answer is that there are reasons why you might prefer
> > shall, but I find that I'd rather say "must is good enough," than
> > try and come up with an articulate presentation of the energy which
> > would conclude by saying that if must still seemed like the right
> > choice go with it.
> > 
> > So,  I'm fine with s/shall/must.
> 
> Thanks Sam,
> 
> the word "shall" appears only once in the Policy (quoted below), so I
> think that avoiding it is consistent with the Policy's style.
> 
>If the package is architecture: any, then
>the shared library compilation and linking flags must have
>-fPIC, or the package shall not build on some of
>the supported architectures
> 
> I still have commit priviledges on the Policy's Git repository on
> Alioth, so if the Policy Editors are busy, I can implement the TC's
> decision.

For what I'm concerned, at least for the "cherry-picking" part of the TC 
decision, please go ahead.

Cheers,
OdyX

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 02.10:01 Guillem Jover a écrit :
> Wow, this is such terrible policy… So we have supporters of the XDG
> format, and supporters of the menu format. Some of those would and
> have accepted files of their non-preferred format in their packages,
> some have outright refused them. But now they have to choose between
> one of them, because they can no longer ship both.

One of the points of the TC decision is precisely to avoid a "free 
choice" between the two formats. The first point of that decision is to 
adopt ba679bff76f5b9152f43d5bc901b9b3aad257479 in the Debian Policy, 
which contains:
> Packages shipping applications that comply with minimal requirements
> described below for integration with desktop environments should
> register these applications in the desktop menu, (…)

Applications "should" be registered in the FreeDesktop menu if that 
makes sense. The second point of the TC decision (which phrasing to be 
committed in the Debian Policy we're currently discussing) is to forbid 
applications that do provide XDG menu entries to _also_ provide "trad 
menu" entries.

> So we might end up with packages by menu supporters removing .desktop
> files, and packages from XDG supporters removing .menu files. And
> users of either format caught inbetween.

The TC decision is saying "XDG menu is now the source, it should be read 
by 'trad menu' programs, and _can_ be completed for the range of 
applications that don't make sense in the XDG menu, but do make sense in 
the 'trad menu'". Like it or not, this is decided, and we're "only" 
discussing how this should take form in the Debian Policy.

In the light of the TC decision, I would personally consider a package 
dropping an XDG desktop entry in favor of a menu entry buggy (although 
there will certainly be cases debatable cases).

> Also is the TC going to implement the changes in the "menu programs"
> to support the XDG format? Because I don't see the ruling to be very
> motivating for the menu supporters.

"The TC" is not going to engage in detailed design work (or 
implementation work, for what is worth), although any of its members 
could (but I don't see this happening).

Cheers,
OdyX

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

2015-09-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 09:21:36PM -0400, Sam Hartman a écrit :
> 
> However, I've also read the upstream colons discussion and can second
> that with no problems what so ever:-)

Thanks Sam.

Would anybody else second that change ?  Sorry to be a bit procedural, but if
nobody else seconds, this bug will go to bitrot and the Policy will not change.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > >-: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
> > >+: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > 
> > Remove :, too.
> 
> Thanks for the proofreading.
> 
> With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed change ?

Seconded.

Cheers,
OdyX

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 09:24:20AM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> 
> For what I'm concerned, at least for the "cherry-picking" part of the TC 
> decision, please go ahead.

Commited and pushed!

I attached a consolidated patch that summarises the changes.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d48eac8..d3ddfe7 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -31,6 +31,14 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Seconded: Bill Allombert 
 Seconded: Charles Plessy 
 Closes: #106073
+  * Policy, as per decision of the Technical Committee:
+[9.6] Document the FreeDesktop menu entries.  Packages providing a .desktop
+file must not also provide a .menu file for the same application.
+[9.7] Document the FreeDesktop media type declarations.
+See: 
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Wording: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
+Closes: #707851
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 404dc73..40f9f3f 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -8130,81 +8130,189 @@ Reloading description configuration...done.
 	Menus
 
 	
-	  The Debian menu package provides a standard
-	  interface between packages providing applications and
-	  menu programs (either X window managers or
-	  text-based menu programs such as pdmenu).
+	  Packages shipping applications that comply with minimal requirements
+	  described below for integration with desktop environments should
+	  register these applications in the desktop menu, following the
+	  FreeDesktop standard, using text files called
+	  desktop entries.  Their format is described in the
+	  Desktop Entry Specification at
+	  http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/";>
+	  and complementary information can be found in the
+	  Desktop Menu Specification at
+	  http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/";>.
 	
 
 	
-	  All packages that provide applications that need not be
-	  passed any special command line arguments for normal
-	  operation should register a menu entry for those
-	  applications, so that users of the menu package
-	  will automatically get menu entries in their window
-	  managers, as well in shells like pdmenu.
+	  The desktop entry files are installed by the packages in the
+	  directory /usr/share/applications and the FreeDesktop
+	  menus are refreshed using dpkg triggers.  It is therefore
+	  not necessary to depend on packages providing FreeDesktop menu
+	  systems.
 	
 
 	
-  Menu entries should follow the current menu policy.
+	  Entries displayed in the FreeDesktop menu should conform to the
+	  following minima for relevance and visual integration.
+
+	  
+	
+	  Unless hidden by default, the desktop entry must point to a PNG
+	  or SVG icon with a transparent background, providing at least
+	  the 22×22 size, and preferably up to 64×64.  The icon
+	  should be neutral enough to integrate well with the default icon
+	  themes.  It is encouraged to ship the icon in the default
+	  hicolor icon theme directories, or to use an existing
+	  icon from the hicolor theme.
+	
+
+	
+	  If the menu entry is not useful in the general case as a
+	  standalone application, the desktop entry should set the
+	  NoDisplay key to true, so that it can be
+	  configured to be displayed only by those who need it.
+	
+
+	
+	  In doubt, the package maintainer should coordinate with the
+	  maintainers of menu implementations through the
+	  debian-desktop mailing list in order to avoid problems
+	  with categories or bad interactions with other icons.  Especially
+	  for packages which are part of installation tasks, the contents
+	  of the NotShowIn/OnlyShowIn keys should be
+	  validated by the maintainers of the relevant environments.
+	
+	  
 	
 
 	
-	  The menu policy can be found in the menu-policy
-	  files in the debian-policy package.
-	  It is also available from the Debian web mirrors at
-  http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu-policy/";>.
+	  Since the FreeDesktop menu is a cross-distribution standard, the
+	  desktop entries written for Debian should be forwarded upstream,
+	  where they will benefit to other users and are more likely to
+	  receive extra contributions such as translations.
 	
 
-	
-	  Please also refer to the Debian Menu System
-	  documentation that comes with the menu
-	  package for information about how to register your
-	  applications.
+
+	  Applications that are not registered in the desktop menu can optionally provide a
+	  Debian menu file, following the Debian menu policy,
+	  which can be found in the menu-policy files in the
+	  debian-policy package.  It is also available from the Debian
+	  web mirrors at http://www.debian.org/doc/p

Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

2015-09-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 01:40:34PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> > Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > > >-  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
> > > >+  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > 
> > > Remove :, too.
> > 
> > Thanks for the proofreading.
> > 
> > With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed change ?
> 
> Seconded.

Thanks,

here is a patch for the Policy editors.

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>From c87377b83d83a2786ee117965c602fb242b393a9 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Charles Plessy 
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:49:44 +0900
Subject: [PATCH] Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.

Wording: Charles Plessy 
Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Seconded: Sam Hartman 
Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
Closes: #792853
---
 debian/changelog | 6 ++
 policy.sgml  | 6 ++
 upgrading-checklist.sgml | 3 +++
 3 files changed, 11 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d3ddfe7..2696a48 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -39,6 +39,12 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Wording: Charles Plessy 
 Wording: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
 Closes: #707851
+  * Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
+Seconded: Sam Hartman 
+Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
+Closes: #792853
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 40f9f3f..c91c23a 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -3224,11 +3224,9 @@ Package: libc6
 			Alphanumerics are A-Za-z0-9 only.
 	  
 	  and the characters . + -
-	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
 	  tilde) and should start with a digit.  If there is no
-	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed;
-	  if there is no epoch then colons are not
-	  allowed.
+	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed.
 		
 	  
 
diff --git a/upgrading-checklist.sgml b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
index 7db0197..f7c86af 100644
--- a/upgrading-checklist.sgml
+++ b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
@@ -40,6 +40,9 @@ picking your way through this list.
 Released xxx, 2015.
 
 
+5.6.12
+   Forbid colons in package version numbers.
+  
 10.5
Symbolic links must not traverse above the root directory.
   
-- 
2.1.4

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Guillem Jover 
On Tue, 2015-09-29 at 11:39:47 +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 02.10:01 Guillem Jover a écrit :
> > Wow, this is such terrible policy… So we have supporters of the XDG
> > format, and supporters of the menu format. Some of those would and
> > have accepted files of their non-preferred format in their packages,
> > some have outright refused them. But now they have to choose between
> > one of them, because they can no longer ship both.
> 
> One of the points of the TC decision is precisely to avoid a "free 
> choice" between the two formats. The first point of that decision is to 
> adopt ba679bff76f5b9152f43d5bc901b9b3aad257479 in the Debian Policy, 
> which contains:
> > Packages shipping applications that comply with minimal requirements
> > described below for integration with desktop environments should
> > register these applications in the desktop menu, (…)

Which contains the requirements for the XDG entry, one of those being
the icon. If the upstream part does not contain a suitable icon, then
removing the XDG entry and any relevant icon shipped in the debian/
directory makes the application obviously non-compliant.

> Applications "should" be registered in the FreeDesktop menu if that 
> makes sense.

For a menu supporter who packages applications for their own use,
I'd presume it would be obvious that making them inaccessible from
their non-XDG compliant environment makes no sense.

> The second point of the TC decision (which phrasing to be 
> committed in the Debian Policy we're currently discussing) is to forbid 
> applications that do provide XDG menu entries to _also_ provide "trad 
> menu" entries.

Sure, and that's still terrible policy, and self-conflicting at best with
the rest of the decision.

(Whatever happened to letting technical solutions win or loose for their
own merits, and from work or lack thereof from supporters, instead of by
letting a big broken hammer fall in slow-motion on them…)

> > So we might end up with packages by menu supporters removing .desktop
> > files, and packages from XDG supporters removing .menu files. And
> > users of either format caught inbetween.
> 
> The TC decision is saying "XDG menu is now the source, it should be read 
> by 'trad menu' programs,

W/o anyone to implement this in the menu programs, this is just wishful
thinking, and might leave big chunks of our users with inaccessible
applications. On either side of the fence.

So it feels like "let's make a mess, and hope someone else cleans it up
for us when they get sufficiently annoyed".

> and _can_ be completed for the range of 
> applications that don't make sense in the XDG menu, but do make sense in 
> the 'trad menu'".

> Like it or not, this is decided, and we're "only" 
> discussing how this should take form in the Debian Policy.

I don't have a horse in this race except for wanting Debian to be sound,
I just think the decision is very poor. I'm also not trying to discuss
how this should end up in policy. As I've mentioned several times now,
as long as the policy process is overrun by the TC, I've got no
motivation to get properly involved in it. Clearly someone else has
decided to do the job.

> In the light of the TC decision, I would personally consider a package 
> dropping an XDG desktop entry in favor of a menu entry buggy (although 
> there will certainly be cases debatable cases).

To me this is the equivalent of a package with suitable applications
for the XDG menu, not currently shipping an XDG entry. So now you
declare all those insta buggy as well.

> > Also is the TC going to implement the changes in the "menu programs"
> > to support the XDG format? Because I don't see the ruling to be very
> > motivating for the menu supporters.
> 
> "The TC" is not going to engage in detailed design work (or 
> implementation work, for what is worth), although any of its members 
> could (but I don't see this happening).

Exactly my point. This is the equivalent of mandating that the Debian
Future Team should design and implement an FTL engine, where of course
the TC has not engaged in any design work. This to me fails §6.3.5.

Regards,
Guillem

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 14.34:35 Guillem Jover a écrit :
> Which contains the requirements for the XDG entry, one of those being
> the icon. If the upstream part does not contain a suitable icon, then
> removing the XDG entry and any relevant icon shipped in the debian/
> directory makes the application obviously non-compliant.
> 
> > Applications "should" be registered in the FreeDesktop menu if that
> > makes sense.
> 
> For a menu supporter who packages applications for their own use,
> I'd presume it would be obvious that making them inaccessible from
> their non-XDG compliant environment makes no sense.

Two points here:
* so far, both in the Policy and during the TC discussion, these "menu 
supporters" have been _mostly_ hypothetical;
* these entries would be absent as long as the "menu program" fail to 
properly use the 'XDG menu' entries, that's the point of the TC 
decision.

> > > So we might end up with packages by menu supporters removing
> > > .desktop files, and packages from XDG supporters removing .menu
> > > files. And users of either format caught inbetween.
> > 
> > The TC decision is saying "XDG menu is now the source, it should be
> > read by 'trad menu' programs,
> 
> W/o anyone to implement this in the menu programs, this is just
> wishful thinking, and might leave big chunks of our users with
> inaccessible applications. On either side of the fence.

Yes. That's exactly the point: the work to keep the 'trad menu' relevant 
is to be made by those who care about it.

> > In the light of the TC decision, I would personally consider a
> > package dropping an XDG desktop entry in favor of a menu entry
> > buggy (although there will certainly be cases debatable cases).
> 
> To me this is the equivalent of a package with suitable applications
> for the XDG menu, not currently shipping an XDG entry. So now you
> declare all those insta buggy as well.

Not anymore buggy than with the previous "trad menu" policy (§9.6 in 
3.9.6), for what is worth: it said:
> All packages that provide applications that need not be passed any
> special command line arguments for normal operation should register a
> menu entry for those applications.

Large parts of Debian have been buggy under this text, for a long time.

> > "The TC" is not going to engage in detailed design work (or
> > implementation work, for what is worth), although any of its members
> > could (but I don't see this happening).
> 
> Exactly my point. This is the equivalent of mandating that the Debian
> Future Team should design and implement an FTL engine, where of course
> the TC has not engaged in any design work. This to me fails §6.3.5.

I obviously disagree, but invite you to challenge this decision in 
forums other than the debian-policy list.

Second, the TC has not mandated any work to any particular team: it 
changed the ecosystem in which the 'trad menu' programs evolve. Mind 
you, program ecosystems evolve all the time; 'trad menu's was relying on 
the Debian Policy mandating entries for all applications "that need not 
be passed any special command line arguments", the TC decision drops 
that requirement.

--
OdyX

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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 21.09:02 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 01:40:34PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit 
:
> > Le samedi, 26 septembre 2015, 15.03:09 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> > > Le Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 03:17:30PM +0200, Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> > > > * Charles Plessy , 2015-09-24, 21:53:
> > > > >-: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > > >colon,
> > > > >+: ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
> > > > 
> > > > Remove :, too.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the proofreading.
> > > 
> > > With this correciton, are there people seconding the proposed
> > > change ?> 
> > Seconded.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> here is a patch for the Policy editors.

This patch doesn't have Jakub's suggestion to drop : too.

Cheers,
OdyX

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Hi Charles,

I noticed you committed this typo of mine to the git repository, sorry 
for that:

Le jeudi, 17 septembre 2015, 15.25:54 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> +  Applications that are registred in the desktop menu shall
---^

Cheers,
OdyX

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Bug#792853: debian-policy: please disallow colons in upstream_version

2015-09-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 03:15:33PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> 
> This patch doesn't have Jakub's suggestion to drop : too.

Woops, sorry (new patch attached).

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>From 8043471268e4256e4a7c08da032b7074777f3eb8 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Charles Plessy 
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:49:44 +0900
Subject: [PATCH] Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.

Wording: Charles Plessy 
Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
Seconded: Sam Hartman 
Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
Closes: #792853
---
 debian/changelog | 6 ++
 policy.sgml  | 6 ++
 upgrading-checklist.sgml | 3 +++
 3 files changed, 11 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/debian/changelog b/debian/changelog
index d3ddfe7..2696a48 100644
--- a/debian/changelog
+++ b/debian/changelog
@@ -39,6 +39,12 @@ debian-policy (3.9.7.0) unstable; urgency=low
 Wording: Charles Plessy 
 Wording: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
 Closes: #707851
+  * Policy: [5.6.12] forbid colons in package version numbers.
+Wording: Charles Plessy 
+Seconded: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud 
+Seconded: Sam Hartman 
+Thanks: Jakub Wilk 
+Closes: #792853
 
  -- Bill Allombert   Fri, 08 May 2015 15:10:02 +0200
 
diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml
index 40f9f3f..7522f47 100644
--- a/policy.sgml
+++ b/policy.sgml
@@ -3224,11 +3224,9 @@ Package: libc6
 			Alphanumerics are A-Za-z0-9 only.
 	  
 	  and the characters . + -
-	  : ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen, colon,
+	  ~ (full stop, plus, hyphen,
 	  tilde) and should start with a digit.  If there is no
-	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed;
-	  if there is no epoch then colons are not
-	  allowed.
+	  debian_revision then hyphens are not allowed.
 		
 	  
 
diff --git a/upgrading-checklist.sgml b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
index 7db0197..f7c86af 100644
--- a/upgrading-checklist.sgml
+++ b/upgrading-checklist.sgml
@@ -40,6 +40,9 @@ picking your way through this list.
 Released xxx, 2015.
 
 
+5.6.12
+   Forbid colons in package version numbers.
+  
 10.5
Symbolic links must not traverse above the root directory.
   
-- 
2.1.4

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 03:25:25PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> 
> I noticed you committed this typo of mine to the git repository, sorry 
> for that:
> 
> Le jeudi, 17 septembre 2015, 15.25:54 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> > +  Applications that are registred in the desktop menu shall
> ---^

Corrected, thanks.

>From this and the "colon" patch I conclude that I definitely need to go to bed.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Guillem Jover 
On Tue, 2015-09-29 at 15:13:28 +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> Le mardi, 29 septembre 2015, 14.34:35 Guillem Jover a écrit :
> > W/o anyone to implement this in the menu programs, this is just
> > wishful thinking, and might leave big chunks of our users with
> > inaccessible applications. On either side of the fence.
> 
> Yes. That's exactly the point: the work to keep the 'trad menu' relevant 
> is to be made by those who care about it.

You seem to be framing this as a XDG vs menu formats. I see it in great
part as applications showing up on WM/DE or not. The collateral damage
from the TC decision are applications, WM/DE and its users from either
format.

> > > "The TC" is not going to engage in detailed design work (or
> > > implementation work, for what is worth), although any of its members
> > > could (but I don't see this happening).
> > 
> > Exactly my point. This is the equivalent of mandating that the Debian
> > Future Team should design and implement an FTL engine, where of course
> > the TC has not engaged in any design work. This to me fails §6.3.5.
> 
> I obviously disagree, but invite you to challenge this decision in 
> forums other than the debian-policy list.

I find that such kind of formal bureaucratic move would be a waste of
time, which if I wanted to waste, I'd rather do trying to get the TC
disbanded as a toxic and polarizing institution for the project. But
I don't think the project is prepared for this, just yet.

> Second, the TC has not mandated any work to any particular team: it 
> changed the ecosystem in which the 'trad menu' programs evolve. Mind 
> you, program ecosystems evolve all the time; 'trad menu's was relying on 
> the Debian Policy mandating entries for all applications "that need not 
> be passed any special command line arguments", the TC decision drops 
> that requirement.

Err, no, the TC has explicitly made it "impossible" for the two systems
to coexist, breaking existing support, and forcing maintainers to choose
one or other ecosystems, w/o any working solution in sight for WM/DE not
supporting the XDG system. Which has made the situation even worse than
before, in a very anti social way.

And I don't see how point 3 of the TC resolution can be read otherwise,
but whatever.

Anyway this discussion in itself is a waste of time, so I'm getting out…

Regards,
Guillem

Bug#707851: Debian Menu Systems : Implementation of the TC decision

2015-09-29 Thread Josselin Mouette 
Guillem Jover  wrote: 
You seem to be framing this as a XDG vs menu formats. I see it in great
part as applications showing up on WM/DE or not. The collateral damage
from the TC decision are applications, WM/DE and its users from either
format.

Only if WMs keep on using the Debian menu instead of the XDG menu.

Err, no, the TC has explicitly made it "impossible" for the two systems
to coexist, breaking existing support, and forcing maintainers to choose
one or other ecosystems, w/o any working solution in sight for WM/DE not
supporting the XDG system. Which has made the situation even worse than
before, in a very anti social way.

You might want to package https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xdg-menu
which answers exactly the questions you have been asking.

-- 
Joss