Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:21:48 -0500 Stefan Monnier wrote: Hi, I follow this discussion with some astonishment. As pbbuttond was born, none of the programs named here existed except pmud. It started as a small project to just make the brightness and volume function keys work and developed over time to what it is today: A program that supports any vendor-specific hardware on iBooks and PowerBooks and some on MacBooks and make it convienient to use them. Of course no program satisfies all people and many think they could do it better and start their own projects, so did I. So over time many programs were created that have a lot of overlapping functionality. Because most of the code for Linux is under the GPL, it is very easy to learn and use code from other projects. But this is nothing evil, its evolution. Discussions about "This program is better than that" are quite useless and reserved for Windows extremists. Many of the programs you mentioned in this discussion use pbbuttonsd code and whenever I discover this, I feel a warm feeling of satisfaction and know that pbbuttonsd moved GNU/Linux a step forward. What I learned in my time programming pbbuttonsd is, that you cannot claim the ultimate solution for yourself, that you cannot force people to use "your" program. People will always use programs they want to so embrace the variaty of solutions with welcome and appreciate it as a chance that makes GNU/Linux so unique. > I think it would be good if someone who understands these issues could > complete the pbbuttonsd webpage&documentation describing how it differs > and/or interacts with other programs providing overlapping functionality. To know what pbbuttons is able to do, look into the README. It is quite easy to compare this list with the features of other programs finding your prefered solution. Why should you rely on my word? I'm not objective ;-) > E.g. is pbbuttonsd's cpu throttling similar to what cpufreqd/powernowd > do or does it work differently? What about the comparison with the > kernel's "ondemand" scaling governor (tho this doesn't work on my G4, so > it's maybe not a relevant question)? What happens if two of them are > installed at the same time? To answer your question regarding CPU Throtteling: Pbbuttonsd does no CPU throtteling at all, neither cpufreqd, powernowd or laptop-mode tools do. Only the kernel is able to do this in an efficient way. So all this programs only provide an interface to control the kernel feature. In other words the algorithm behind all this programs is exactly the same (only depending on the CPU you use). > How does pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power save compare to the usual > laptop-mode thingy? Both programs use hdparm to do the work. If laptop-mode tools is installed, pbbuttonsd will use it, because it also tweaks the disk buffer and sync inverval of the harddisk, so that it could spin-down for more than ten seconds. > For someone like myself who uses Debian on a variety of platforms, it'd > help me figure out how best to adapt my generic Debian config. I use debian with Gnome too, nevertheless I still use pbbuttonsd because it is convienent, small, fast, does anything I need and tells me the precise time left on battery (thanks to IBAM for that) and not the crap read out from the batteries itself that Gnome will sell to you. Best Regards Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:21:48PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> - backlight dimming is handled by gnome > >> - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome > >> - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager > >> What else do you need ? > > Not everyone's using Gnome. > > I'm not arguing for/against pbbuttonsd. I just see that a lot of what > it provides is already provided in a machine-agnostic way by other parts > of the system (be it Gnome/KDE or more core parts of the system). The fact that they are machine-agnostic does have its issues. One of the upsides of pbbuttonsd (in my opinion) is that in its default configuration, it actually matches what's printed on my keyboard: if I hit the 'volume down' key, it will actually lower the volume -- without the need for any configuration. For all the other options out there, I have to manually configure things. Not that I don't know how to do that, but it's easier if I don't have to. Pbbuttonsd also knows about some apple-specific features that the machine-agnostic things don't know about, such as keyboard backlight etc. All that makes it more interesting than any of the alternatives on apple hardware, IMO. -- Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
Le samedi 31 janvier 2009 à 21:38 +0100, Gerfried Fuchs a écrit : > Thanks, I am reading the list I post to, otherwise I wouldn't had > followed up to the thread. ;) No need to extra Cc me. I thought it was the policy on this list ... sorry for the annoyance. > The unnamed "desktop environment" in the debian-installer installs the > desktop environment that is the default for that CD. There are first CDs > for gnome, KDE and xfce, so all three of them are "default". Well, I installed debian by using the netboot image, which has no desktop environment on it. So this is why (again ...) I'm calling it "default". I have no "official" URL to back it up, but I thought it was "natural" to have gnome as default, as it is today the DE of most distros (beware, I'm a gnome user, so I may not have an objective POV). > > but I didn't think of it because I never owned (or saw anyone using > > debian on his PB) a backlit PowerBook. > > Mostly because I only really use it when I'm lying in bed in the dark. > Not completely sure if the usecases for that feature is much different > for other people, but I highly doubt that you (or others) would be able > to see me using that because of this. ;) Point taken :-) but what I meant by "not seen anyone" was rather not knowing anyone who used pbbutoonsd for his backlit PB, rather than actually seeing him. Excuse my english ... > On the other hand, I haven't seen this on much other hardware > platforms, and given that specific hardware features (like this) indeed > _are_ hardware vendor specific, it shouldn't be considered too strange > that there are special tools to support them for that architecture. Of course. Even if I seem to remember some very specific model with this feature, but it's not common at all. Regards, benjamin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
I'm glad you're happy with pbbuttonsd. My questions have nothing to do with whether pbbuttonsd is good or bad. Stefan > "Børge" == Børge Holen writes: > On 31. jan.. 2009, at 22.20, Stefan Monnier > wrote: E.g. is pbbuttonsd's cpu throttling similar to what cpufreqd/ powernowd do or does it work differently? What about the comparison with the kernel's "ondemand" scaling governor (tho this doesn't work on my G4, so it's maybe not a relevant question)? What happens if two of them are installed at the same time? >>> Non issue, leave it to the kernel >> >> I do not know what you mean. Are you saying "pbbuttonsd's cpu >> throttling functionality is useless, use the `ondemand' governor to let >> the kernel take care of it"? > No, not useless. Still i like easy and functions further up the tree if you > catch my drift >> >> >> If so, it doesn't apply to the G4 since the G4 isn't able to switch >> frequency quickly enough for the kernel's scaling governors to be used. > Ok, i'll be sure to let my computer know that. >> >> How does pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power save compare to the usual laptop-mode thingy? >>> Also a kernel thingy >> >> Actually, not only: the kernel provides ways to save power, but how and >> when to use them is generally under the control of userspace tools. > You sure want to confuse the discussion with minor importances. Want to > discuss X' mouse handling to? >> >> >> But IIUC you're saying that pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power saving >> functionality is made redundant by laptop-mode? > No. I still like easy and functions to be handeled as early as possible > making me run less annoying program and daemons >> >> Is it also the case that pbbuttonsd makes laptop-mode redundant? > Now you are fetching straws to discuss boring subjects >> >> For someone like myself who uses Debian on a variety of platforms, it'd help me figure out how best to adapt my generic Debian config. >>> For the sake of EASY handling of button functions... There shines >>> pbbuttonsd >> >> I believe you. But I don't know what "buttons" you're talking about, nor >> do I know what is their "function". And I'm not even sure what you mean >> by "EASY" (tho I guess you mean "without any manual configration"). > Manual configurations is ok. > Still, changing the light with proc or whatever with numbers 1-255 is kinda > stupid. Btw now you come out as somewhat a bit dense. You've read the posts > on this current topic you started? > Apt-get install pbbuttonsd once is easy and every little marking and symbol > on my keyboard works >> >> Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On 31. jan.. 2009, at 22.20, Stefan Monnier wrote: E.g. is pbbuttonsd's cpu throttling similar to what cpufreqd/ powernowd do or does it work differently? What about the comparison with the kernel's "ondemand" scaling governor (tho this doesn't work on my G4, so it's maybe not a relevant question)? What happens if two of them are installed at the same time? Non issue, leave it to the kernel I do not know what you mean. Are you saying "pbbuttonsd's cpu throttling functionality is useless, use the `ondemand' governor to let the kernel take care of it"? No, not useless. Still i like easy and functions further up the tree if you catch my drift If so, it doesn't apply to the G4 since the G4 isn't able to switch frequency quickly enough for the kernel's scaling governors to be used. Ok, i'll be sure to let my computer know that. How does pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power save compare to the usual laptop-mode thingy? Also a kernel thingy Actually, not only: the kernel provides ways to save power, but how and when to use them is generally under the control of userspace tools. You sure want to confuse the discussion with minor importances. Want to discuss X' mouse handling to? But IIUC you're saying that pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power saving functionality is made redundant by laptop-mode? No. I still like easy and functions to be handeled as early as possible making me run less annoying program and daemons Is it also the case that pbbuttonsd makes laptop-mode redundant? Now you are fetching straws to discuss boring subjects For someone like myself who uses Debian on a variety of platforms, it'd help me figure out how best to adapt my generic Debian config. For the sake of EASY handling of button functions... There shines pbbuttonsd I believe you. But I don't know what "buttons" you're talking about, nor do I know what is their "function". And I'm not even sure what you mean by "EASY" (tho I guess you mean "without any manual configration"). Manual configurations is ok. Still, changing the light with proc or whatever with numbers 1-255 is kinda stupid. Btw now you come out as somewhat a bit dense. You've read the posts on this current topic you started? Apt-get install pbbuttonsd once is easy and every little marking and symbol on my keyboard works Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
Hi! Thanks, I am reading the list I post to, otherwise I wouldn't had followed up to the thread. ;) No need to extra Cc me. * Benjamin Cama [2009-01-31 20:45:10 CET]: > As far as I remember, selecting the unnamed "desktop environnement" in > the debian-installer installs Gnome. This is why I called it "default", > but you can of course not install any DE at all. The unnamed "desktop environment" in the debian-installer installs the desktop environment that is the default for that CD. There are first CDs for gnome, KDE and xfce, so all three of them are "default". > but I didn't think of it because I never owned (or saw anyone using > debian on his PB) a backlit PowerBook. Mostly because I only really use it when I'm lying in bed in the dark. Not completely sure if the usecases for that feature is much different for other people, but I highly doubt that you (or others) would be able to see me using that because of this. ;) On the other hand, I haven't seen this on much other hardware platforms, and given that specific hardware features (like this) indeed _are_ hardware vendor specific, it shouldn't be considered too strange that there are special tools to support them for that architecture. So long. :) Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
Le vendredi 30 janvier 2009 à 22:18 +0100, Børge Holen a écrit : > Top posting. Gnome default? When did that happen? Never did a default, > but how does gnome know I got backlit buttons on F9-11? As far as I remember, selecting the unnamed "desktop environnement" in the debian-installer installs Gnome. This is why I called it "default", but you can of course not install any DE at all. I admit I forgot the backlit keys, that is still lacking in any "default" tool appart from the mac-specific ones (pbbuttonsd and the like). To all who made this remark (especially Gerfried), this is of course not acceptable not to fully support this hardware part, but I didn't think of it because I never owned (or saw anyone using debian on his PB) a backlit PowerBook. This is just a bit ackward, I think, to have this kind of particularity on the mac platform, and overlapping tools for the other jobs. But no offense here, pbbuttonsd is still a good tool for what it does. Regards, Benjamin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rafal Czlonka pisze: > benoar wrote: >> - backlight dimming is handled by gnome >> - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome >> - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager >> >> What else do you need ? > > Not everyone's using Gnome. > > Cheers, Most of the job of recognizing special keys is done by kernel + xorg, and as a result generic events are sent to apps (e.g. XF86AudioMute) to be handled by them). Therefore this ability is not constrained to Gnome (I do not, however, know how well other DEs handle those events, but it's a matter of implementing handling of events on their side). - -- Cheers! Andrzej Mendel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmEZ+8ACgkQqB4jXo6ZLCR0mQCfatAB+deb5GcF9yTR25/XZgR0 tQ0Anj9IA6gIyuDrgNJj9zc2z3u16uum =hYpE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:50:51PM +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > * benoar [2009-01-30 14:40:02 CET]: > > I personally had a G4 iBook than ran without pbbuttonsd : > > Fine, I didn't deny that it's not possible. > > > - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome > > How are xorg & gnome able to regulate the lighting of the keyboard? > Your scenario also lacks the posibility of detecting the surrounding > brightness and adapting the backlight of the screen and the keyboard > lights to it. AFAIK keyboard backlight and the ambient light sensors are the two things that are only supported by pbbuttons or pommed. The other function keys, display backlight, cpu throtteling and harddisk powersave can also be done with other (more generic) tools. So it's probably mostly a matter of personal preference which tool you want to use. Gaudenz -- Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. ~ Samuel Beckett ~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
>> - backlight dimming is handled by gnome >> - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome >> - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager >> What else do you need ? > Not everyone's using Gnome. I'm not arguing for/against pbbuttonsd. I just see that a lot of what it provides is already provided in a machine-agnostic way by other parts of the system (be it Gnome/KDE or more core parts of the system). I think it would be good if someone who understands these issues could complete the pbbuttonsd webpage&documentation describing how it differs and/or interacts with other programs providing overlapping functionality. E.g. is pbbuttonsd's cpu throttling similar to what cpufreqd/powernowd do or does it work differently? What about the comparison with the kernel's "ondemand" scaling governor (tho this doesn't work on my G4, so it's maybe not a relevant question)? What happens if two of them are installed at the same time? How does pbbuttonsd's hard-disk power save compare to the usual laptop-mode thingy? For someone like myself who uses Debian on a variety of platforms, it'd help me figure out how best to adapt my generic Debian config. Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
* benoar [2009-01-30 14:40:02 CET]: > I personally had a G4 iBook than ran without pbbuttonsd : Fine, I didn't deny that it's not possible. > - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome How are xorg & gnome able to regulate the lighting of the keyboard? Your scenario also lacks the posibility of detecting the surrounding brightness and adapting the backlight of the screen and the keyboard lights to it. > What else do you need ? See above. And it's still not a thing of _need_, it's a thing of fully supporting the offered options. It might well be that you can live without it, but it's a kinda bold statement to claim that "pbbuttonsd can be said to be kind of useless for most of the people." It won't buy you anything. So long, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
Top posting. Gnome default? When did that happen? Never did a default, but how does gnome know I got backlit buttons on F9-11? On 30. jan.. 2009, at 17.24, benoar wrote: On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:46:28 +, Rafal Czlonka wrote: benoar wrote: - backlight dimming is handled by gnome - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager What else do you need ? Not everyone's using Gnome. OK, that was the trap in my argument. Anyway, as Gnome is the default desktop in Debian, and as most of the users use a GUI, I think pbbuttonsd can be said to be kind of useless for most of the people. The original poster just seemed to be in that case, so that is why I answered like that. Of course, some people will have special needs, and pbbuttonsd is there for them. Regards, benjamin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:46:28 +, Rafal Czlonka wrote: > benoar wrote: >> - backlight dimming is handled by gnome >> - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome >> - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager >> >> What else do you need ? > > Not everyone's using Gnome. OK, that was the trap in my argument. Anyway, as Gnome is the default desktop in Debian, and as most of the users use a GUI, I think pbbuttonsd can be said to be kind of useless for most of the people. The original poster just seemed to be in that case, so that is why I answered like that. Of course, some people will have special needs, and pbbuttonsd is there for them. Regards, benjamin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:40 PM, benoar wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:51:47 +, Rafal Czlonka > wrote: >> Gerfried Fuchs wrote: >>> > So is it still useful, and if so for what? >>> >>> Why do you think it's not? >> >> +1 > > I personally had a G4 iBook than ran without pbbuttonsd : > - cpu throttling, hard-disk power save mode and the like are handled by > laptop-mode (standard on x86 laptops) > - backlight dimming is handled by gnome > - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome > - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager > So you need gnome and maybe login to a gnome session. Best regards, Bin > What else do you need ? > > Regards, > benjamin > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
benoar wrote: > - backlight dimming is handled by gnome > - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome > - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager > > What else do you need ? Not everyone's using Gnome. Cheers, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:51:47 +, Rafal Czlonka wrote: > Gerfried Fuchs wrote: >> > So is it still useful, and if so for what? >> >> Why do you think it's not? > > +1 I personally had a G4 iBook than ran without pbbuttonsd : - cpu throttling, hard-disk power save mode and the like are handled by laptop-mode (standard on x86 laptops) - backlight dimming is handled by gnome - "function" keys are very well handled by xorg & gnome - suspend to ram is handled by gnome-power-manager What else do you need ? Regards, benjamin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > > So is it still useful, and if so for what? > > Why do you think it's not? +1 > > PS: Running on a PowerBook G4 12". > > PowerBook G4 15" iBook G4 12" Cheers, Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
* Stefan Monnier [2009-01-29 21:23:44 CET]: > I notice that my Debian testing install includes pbbuttonsd and starst > it at boot. But looking at the home page of that project, it seems that > what it offers is already provided by other parts of the system nowadays. What other parts are you refering to? I use pbbuttonsd and wouldn't know what else is as convenient to use the function key things to control backlight, volume and keyboard lights. Maybe there are other "parts of the system" that offer the same functionality, I don't know, but then again there is also elvis and nvi which provide quite similar functionality, left aside all the other text editors. > So is it still useful, and if so for what? Why do you think it's not? > PS: Running on a PowerBook G4 12". PowerBook G4 15" So long. :) Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: What is pbbuttonsd used for nowadays?
On 30. jan.. 2009, at 02.13, Stefan Monnier wrote: I notice that my Debian testing install includes pbbuttonsd and starst it at boot. But looking at the home page of that project, it seems that what it offers is already provided by other parts of the system nowadays. Oh? Witch systems are we talking about? Well, this was posted on the debian-powerpc mailing list, so I thought it would be obvious we're talking about a Debian system. I.e. the result of a normal Debian install. Of course, I were merely asking for what other parts you are hinting to. So is it still useful, and if so for what? To make machine functions work easy with the keyboard. I do not know what this means. Backlit keyboard and screen, volume and such. Probably something i've forgotten. But there you are Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
