Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 10:27:41PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 01:22:03PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
[...]
> > I've been unable to match MacOS and have something that works
> > under emacs: ideally I'd like to use both Alt keys as level3
> > (option lv3:alt_switch does it, but both Alt keys then set
> > both Modifiers 1 and 5, and emacs does not allow me to type
> > 3rd/4th symbols).
> 
> Both Alt keys have the same keycodes, so they cannot be distinguished.
> IIRC their keycode is the one of Alt_L, and Alt_R can be obtained with
> Fn key.
> I just filed
>   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8572
> about ISO_Level3_Shift being bound to Mod1 and Mod5.
> 
> > I'd also like to use both Apple/Command keys as Alt/Meta
> > (modifier1, not 4), this works under emacs with option
> > altwin:meta_win but not under other apps that insist
> > (as I understand it) on checking for Modifier 1. I don't 
> > understand eiher why the meta_win insists on mapping the 
> > alt_* keys and giving them modifier 1. There may be a reason 
> > but it escapes me.
> 
> There is indeed a bug, I just filed
>   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8571
> You can apply the patch found in this bugreport (take care that it has to
> be reverted!)

Please test http://people.debian.org/~barbier/tmp/xkb-data_0.9-1_all.deb
Both bugs should be fixed.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 01:22:03PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
> Well, it works more or less. It does not work as I'd like 
> on my old Powerbook since Apple changed the order of the
> keys right of the spacebar a few years ago:
> 
> - now the keys are: spacebar, Command(Apple), Enter
> - on the old one:   spacebar, Enter,  Alt(Option)
> 
> I have two (indistinguishable, same ADB keycode) keys 
> labeled "Alt" used under MacOS to access third and fourth
> level and only one with the Apple logo. Newer keyboards
> are the other way around and the Keypad Enter has moved.
> 
> I prefer the old layout since I heavily use the 3rd/4th level
> (need to type english, spanish and french) combination and map 
> the Apple/Command key as Meta (so the mapping is similar to
> MacOS). But I shall manage.

Please write ASCII-art as in
  http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2006/08/msg00361.html
to give detailed informations about your keys, that should be clearer ;)

> Nevertheless, it is an improvement over the old situation 
> when most of the 3rd/4th level symbols did not match the 
> ones printed on the keys.
> 
> I've been unable to match MacOS and have something that works
> under emacs: ideally I'd like to use both Alt keys as level3
> (option lv3:alt_switch does it, but both Alt keys then set
> both Modifiers 1 and 5, and emacs does not allow me to type
> 3rd/4th symbols).

Both Alt keys have the same keycodes, so they cannot be distinguished.
IIRC their keycode is the one of Alt_L, and Alt_R can be obtained with
Fn key.
I just filed
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8572
about ISO_Level3_Shift being bound to Mod1 and Mod5.

> I'd also like to use both Apple/Command keys as Alt/Meta
> (modifier1, not 4), this works under emacs with option
> altwin:meta_win but not under other apps that insist
> (as I understand it) on checking for Modifier 1. I don't 
> understand eiher why the meta_win insists on mapping the 
> alt_* keys and giving them modifier 1. There may be a reason 
> but it escapes me.

There is indeed a bug, I just filed
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8571
You can apply the patch found in this bugreport (take care that it has to
be reverted!)

> On my old laptop, the Menu key actually exists, it
> is Fn+Enter, but not on the new one. This is an easy to
> fix kernel bug, but there no menu key on Apple desktop
> keyboards (they have 3 keys right of the spacebar, instead
> of 4 on PC104/PC105 keyboards).

I do not understand what you say about this Menu key, sorry.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Gabriel Paubert]

On Sun, Sep 24, 2006 at 12:17:09AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:26:09PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
> > Another point, the es layout for Macintosh is actually 
> > latin american. Apple makes both es and latin american
> > and they are very different: simply look at the differences
> > between latam and es in the symbols directory.
> 
> There is indeed an old bugreport upstream
>   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1576
> which contains a patch.  Can you please test the attached
> patch?  The "es" layout is renamed into "latam" and keys 1
> and 2 are modified, and a new "es" layout is created for
> Spain.
> 

Well, it works more or less. It does not work as I'd like 
on my old Powerbook since Apple changed the order of the
keys right of the spacebar a few years ago:

- now the keys are: spacebar, Command(Apple), Enter
- on the old one:   spacebar, Enter,  Alt(Option)

I have two (indistinguishable, same ADB keycode) keys 
labeled "Alt" used under MacOS to access third and fourth
level and only one with the Apple logo. Newer keyboards
are the other way around and the Keypad Enter has moved.

I prefer the old layout since I heavily use the 3rd/4th level
(need to type english, spanish and french) combination and map 
the Apple/Command key as Meta (so the mapping is similar to
MacOS). But I shall manage.

Nevertheless, it is an improvement over the old situation 
when most of the 3rd/4th level symbols did not match the 
ones printed on the keys.

I've been unable to match MacOS and have something that works
under emacs: ideally I'd like to use both Alt keys as level3
(option lv3:alt_switch does it, but both Alt keys then set
both Modifiers 1 and 5, and emacs does not allow me to type
3rd/4th symbols).

I'd also like to use both Apple/Command keys as Alt/Meta
(modifier1, not 4), this works under emacs with option
altwin:meta_win but not under other apps that insist
(as I understand it) on checking for Modifier 1. I don't 
understand eiher why the meta_win insists on mapping the 
alt_* keys and giving them modifier 1. There may be a reason 
but it escapes me.

On my old laptop, the Menu key actually exists, it
is Fn+Enter, but not on the new one. This is an easy to
fix kernel bug, but there no menu key on Apple desktop
keyboards (they have 3 keys right of the spacebar, instead
of 4 on PC104/PC105 keyboards).

I know all of this is really confusing, and I may only 
have added to the confusion. Sorry for this, but it's
really confusing to have identically labelled keys which 
have different functions (left and right Alt/Option on 
desktop) while they must have the same function on the
old laptop keyboards (same keycode), while at the same
time having essentially useless keys (the Apple/Option
ones) which are not used by any of the applications
which are important in my daily computer use.

Regards,
Gabriel


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:26:09PM +0200, Gabriel Paubert wrote:
> Another point, the es layout for Macintosh is actually 
> latin american. Apple makes both es and latin american
> and they are very different: simply look at the differences
> between latam and es in the symbols directory.

There is indeed an old bugreport upstream
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1576
which contains a patch.  Can you please test the attached
patch?  The "es" layout is renamed into "latam" and keys 1
and 2 are modified, and a new "es" layout is created for
Spain.

Denis
--- symbols.orig/macintosh_vndr/es
+++ symbols/macintosh_vndr/es
@@ -1,38 +1,6 @@
 
 partial default alphanumeric_keys 
 xkb_symbols "basic" {
-
-// Describes the differences between a very simple mac_US
-// keyboard and a very simple Spanish keybaord
-
-include "latin"
+include "es"
 name[Group1]= "Spain - Mac";
-
-key  {   [ bracketleft,bracketright,braceleft,   
   braceright   ]   };
-key  {   [less, greater,  bracketleft,   
braceleft   ]   };
-key  {   [   1,  exclam  ]   };
-key  {   [   2,  exclamdown,   at,   
oneeighth   ]   };
-key  {   [   3,  numbersign,guillemotleft,  
guillemotright   ]   };
-key  {   [   4,  dollar,  yen,   
  Icircumflex   ]   };
-key  {   [   5, percent  ]   };
-key  {   [   6,   slash,backslash,   
   Idiaeresis   ]   };
-key  {   [   7,   ampersand,  bar,   
   Iacute   ]   };
-key  {   [   8,asterisk,   degree
]   };
-key  {   [   9,   parenleft, sterling,   
  Ocircumflex   ]   };
-key  {   [   0,  parenright  ]   };
-key  {   [   minus,  underscore  ]   };
-key  {   [   equal,plus,plusminus
]   };
-key  {   [  dead_grave,  degree  ]   };
-key  {   [  dead_acute,  dead_diaeresis,  bar
]   };
-
-key  {   [   comma,questiondown  ]   };
-key  {   [  period,question  ]   };
-key  {   [ccedilla,Ccedilla  ]   };
-key {[  ntilde,  Ntilde,   
asciitilde, dead_doubleacute  ]   };
-key  {   [   semicolon,   colon  ]   };
-key  {   [  apostrophe,quotedbl  ]   };
-
-// End alphanumeric section
-
-include "level3(ralt_switch)"
 };
--- /dev/null
+++ symbols/macintosh_vndr/latam
@@ -0,0 +1,38 @@
+
+partial default alphanumeric_keys 
+xkb_symbols "basic" {
+
+// Describes the differences between a very simple mac_US
+// keyboard and a very simple Spanish keybaord
+
+include "latin"
+name[Group1]= "Latin American - Mac";
+
+key  {   [ bracketleft,bracketright,braceleft,   
   braceright   ]   };
+key  {   [less, greater,  bracketleft,   
braceleft   ]   };
+key  {   [   1,  exclamdown  ]   };
+key  {   [   2,  exclam,   at,   
oneeighth   ]   };
+key  {   [   3,  numbersign,guillemotleft,  
guillemotright   ]   };
+key  {   [   4,  dollar,  yen,   
  Icircumflex   ]   };
+key  {   [   5, percent  ]   };
+key  {   [   6,   slash,backslash,   
   Idiaeresis   ]   };
+key  {   [   7,   ampersand,  bar,   
   Iacute   ]   };
+key  {   [   8,asterisk,   degree
]   };
+key  {   [   9,   parenleft, sterling,   
  Ocircumflex   ]   };
+key  {   [   0,  parenright  ]   };
+key  {   [   minus,  underscore  ]   };
+key  {   [   equal,plus,plusminus
]   };
+key  {   [  dead_grave,  degree  ]   };
+key  {   [  dead_acute,  dead_diaeresis,  bar
]   };
+
+key  {   [   comma,questiondown  ]   };
+key  {   [  period,question  ]   };
+key  {   [ccedilla,Ccedilla  ]   };
+key {[  ntilde,  Ntilde,   
asciitilde, dead_doubleacute  ]   };
+key  {   [   semicolon,   colon  ]   };
+key  {   [

Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Eddy Petrişor]

On 13/09/06, Sylvain Joyeux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Fix that on *your* system or for *your* user account. Some people
> actually _need_ it.
Just *calm down*, my question was specifically "how to fix that *here*". Could
you enlighten me and tell me for *what* it is used ?


Sorry, I didn't ment it so seem I was out of control.

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EddyP
=
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Hello Denis,
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 09:48:11PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 10:00:06PM +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > > Next I compare both the keyboard on the console and in X. Since the third
> > > level is (almost) not printed on the keyboard an I never use X (but normal
> > > keyboards a lot) I'd like to have the third level as on an ordinary 
> > > keyboard.
> > > 
> > > All keys which work as expected are not reported.
> > > 
> > > Number row without any modifier:
> > >Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')
> > 
> > The leftmost key (next to 1) is < instead of ^
> 
> Please test by setting XkbModel to macintosh_old2.  As explained in
> other subthreads, these 2 keys are swapped for some models.  The
> macintosh_old2 name is a temporary one and will be changed in the
> final version.

Yes, this is correct now. The main deficiency (from my POV) is that
the brackets are still "goofed up" (but I think this might by the mac
layout) (i.e. []|{}} instead of {[]}\), Apple-Q still yields « instead of @
and that ` is not printed (I can get it by Apple-#)

> > > Number row with Apple key pressed:
> > >2 and 3 ok; but then mixed up, 
> > >starting at 5:[]|{}}\
> > >should be (from 7): {[]}\
> > 
> >This is still the case

Also for macintohs_old2

> There are 4 German Macintosh layouts in /usr/share/keymaps/mac:
>   * mac-de2-ext.kmap.gz
> 3rd level for number keys are the ones you want, but keycodes are
> wrong, for instance 7 has keycode 26 instead of 8.  (ADB keycodes?)
>   * mac-de-latin1.kmap.gz
> 3rd level for number keys are the ones you want, but keycodes are
> wrong too.
> It is broken since it includes "include/mac-qwerty-layout" which
> does no more exist in console-data in sid.  (Bug in console-data?)
>   * mac-de-latin1-nodeadkeys.kmap.gz
> 3rd level for number keys are the same as in X, and keycodes are
> wrong too.
>   * mac-ibook-de.kmap.gz
> You submitted this one, so it is surely the one you are using ;)

Probably, but I've never given it that name. What would be the proper
one, i.e. which of these 4 are intended to stay and support PC-style
german ibook keyboards? (And how does this relate to macintosh_old2?)

> And there are also USB variants in /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwertz:
>   * mac-usb-de-latin1.kmap.gz
> Looks similar to X keymaps.
>   * mac-usb-de-latin1-nodeadkeys.kmap.gz
> Ditto.

These are for external USB keyboards, correct?

> All console layouts use @, so X has surely to be changed.

Great to hear.

> > > Yxcv-row, with Apple key pressed:
> > >Apple-Y is « and Apple-X is » (which unfortunately does not work on
> > >the console), which is great! (Ideally I'd like them swapped, as in
> > >german they are "reversed" compared to the french/swiss usage)
> > 
> >This is still the case
> 
> It makes sense, this change can be pushed upstream if there is a consensus
> amongst German Mac users.

I thinks at least the translators will like it, as »« are the current
quotes used. If you like, I can ask on the german debian translators
list for comments.

Greetings

   Helge
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Sylvain Joyeux]

> Well, it's used to type a non breaking space ;)
Well, frankly, I am french and I never type them directly.  transforms normal spaces kindly when 
needed. I never knew it was specifically handled by some programs, seems like 
I'll sleep a less ignorant man tonight ;-)

Thanks for the information.

Sylvain


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Nicolas François]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 03:26:50PM +0200, Sylvain Joyeux wrote:
> > Fix that on *your* system or for *your* user account. Some people
> > actually _need_ it.
> Just *calm down*, my question was specifically "how to fix that *here*". 
> Could 
> you enlighten me and tell me for *what* it is used ? 

Well, it's used to type a non breaking space ;)

In French, you have to use (the French typographical rules requires) a non
breaking space before every colon, semi-colon, question marks, exclamation
marks, before closing quotes, and after opening quotes, etc.
This deserves an easy way to type non breaking spaces (it's much more
frequent than many letters from the French azerty keyboard).

If you never type French text, or do not care about the French
typographical rules, you can disable it (the way you did is probably not
fine, because it will be destroyed by some updates; maybe xmodmap can help).

Kind Regards,
-- 
Nekral


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Sylvain Joyeux]

> Fix that on *your* system or for *your* user account. Some people
> actually _need_ it.
Just *calm down*, my question was specifically "how to fix that *here*". Could 
you enlighten me and tell me for *what* it is used ? 

Sylvain


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Eddy Petrişor]

On 13/09/06, Sylvain Joyeux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Just for information, I don't know if I'm the only one but I find
the 'nobreakspace' symbol very annoying (it usually shows up when I write
a '{ ' or '[ ' since my right finger stays on the altgr when I press space).
Is it really needed ? Can it be disabled without just copying the fr symbol
file and removing it ? (as I'm currently doing ...)


Fix that on *your* system or for *your* user account. Some people
actually _need_ it.

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=
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Sylvain Joyeux]

Just for information, I don't know if I'm the only one but I find 
the 'nobreakspace' symbol very annoying (it usually shows up when I write 
a '{ ' or '[ ' since my right finger stays on the altgr when I press space). 
Is it really needed ? Can it be disabled without just copying the fr symbol 
file and removing it ? (as I'm currently doing ...)

Thanks for all the work ...
-- 
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 10:00:06PM +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > Next I compare both the keyboard on the console and in X. Since the third
> > level is (almost) not printed on the keyboard an I never use X (but normal
> > keyboards a lot) I'd like to have the third level as on an ordinary 
> > keyboard.
> > 
> > All keys which work as expected are not reported.
> > 
> > Number row without any modifier:
> >Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')
> 
> The leftmost key (next to 1) is < instead of ^

Please test by setting XkbModel to macintosh_old2.  As explained in
other subthreads, these 2 keys are swapped for some models.  The
macintosh_old2 name is a temporary one and will be changed in the
final version.

> Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')
> 
> Number row with shift:
> The leftmost key (next to 1) is > instead of °

Ditto.

> > Number row with Apple key pressed:
> >2 and 3 ok; but then mixed up, 
> >starting at 5:[]|{}}\
> >should be (from 7): {[]}\
> 
>This is still the case

There are 4 German Macintosh layouts in /usr/share/keymaps/mac:
  * mac-de2-ext.kmap.gz
3rd level for number keys are the ones you want, but keycodes are
wrong, for instance 7 has keycode 26 instead of 8.  (ADB keycodes?)
  * mac-de-latin1.kmap.gz
3rd level for number keys are the ones you want, but keycodes are
wrong too.
It is broken since it includes "include/mac-qwerty-layout" which
does no more exist in console-data in sid.  (Bug in console-data?)
  * mac-de-latin1-nodeadkeys.kmap.gz
3rd level for number keys are the same as in X, and keycodes are
wrong too.
  * mac-ibook-de.kmap.gz
You submitted this one, so it is surely the one you are using ;)

And there are also USB variants in /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwertz:
  * mac-usb-de-latin1.kmap.gz
Looks similar to X keymaps.
  * mac-usb-de-latin1-nodeadkeys.kmap.gz
Ditto.

Nice mess ;)

> > Qwertz-row, with Apple key pressed:
> >q -> «  instead of @ (not necessary, see Apple-y)
> >plus some other characters I've never used on some other letters. (I
> >assume, that I don't see the euro sign with Apple-E but ¤ is a font 
> >issue)
> 
> This is still the case.

All console layouts use @, so X has surely to be changed.

> > Asdf-row, with Apple key pressed:
> >Some other characters and some double usage (e.g. ß, @, ^, `), now
> >suprise (on the console most of these are no special character)
> 
> This is still the case

Those extra symbols do not hurt.

> Yxcv-row, without any modifier:
> The lefmost key (next to left shift) is now ^ instead of <

See above about macintosh_old2.

> Yxcv-row, with shift key:
> The lefmost key (next to left shift) is now ° instead of >

See above about macintosh_old2.

> > Yxcv-row, with Apple key pressed:
> >Apple-Y is « and Apple-X is » (which unfortunately does not work on
> >the console), which is great! (Ideally I'd like them swapped, as in
> >german they are "reversed" compared to the french/swiss usage)
> 
>This is still the case

It makes sense, this change can be pushed upstream if there is a consensus
amongst German Mac users.

> > So in conclusion, I like your new layout. It would be great, if you could
> > enable an easy possibility to chose between pc-style third level and 
> > macintosh third level.
> 
> Well, the new one degarded a little, as it swapped the ^/° with the
>  key on my german iBook G4 keyboard
> 
> I hope this updated info helps.

Sure, thanks for your help.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Hello Denis,
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 09:35:46PM +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> Hello Denis,
> I used xkb-data_0.8-10exp1_all.deb from your tmp directory as described in

now the same with xkb-data_0.8-12exp1_all.deb

> First, after issuing "setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp - :0" I can finally jump
> from and to the console again (i.e. X -> console). This is very valuable, as
> I work a lot on the console (and the keyboard works perfectly there, 
> fortunately). 

Valid here as well.

> Next I compare both the keyboard on the console and in X. Since the third
> level is (almost) not printed on the keyboard an I never use X (but normal
> keyboards a lot) I'd like to have the third level as on an ordinary keyboard.
> 
> All keys which work as expected are not reported.
> 
> Number row without any modifier:
>Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')

The leftmost key (next to 1) is < instead of ^
Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')

Number row with shift:
The leftmost key (next to 1) is > instead of °


> Number row with Apple key pressed:
>2 and 3 ok; but then mixed up, 
>starting at 5:[]|{}}\
>should be (from 7): {[]}\

   This is still the case

> 
> Qwertz-row, with Apple key pressed:
>q -> «  instead of @ (not necessary, see Apple-y)
>plus some other characters I've never used on some other letters. (I
>assume, that I don't see the euro sign with Apple-E but ¤ is a font 
>issue)

This is still the case.

> Asdf-row, with Apple key pressed:
>Some other characters and some double usage (e.g. ß, @, ^, `), now
>suprise (on the console most of these are no special character)

This is still the case

Yxcv-row, without any modifier:
The lefmost key (next to left shift) is now ^ instead of <

Yxcv-row, with shift key:
The lefmost key (next to left shift) is now ° instead of >

> Yxcv-row, with Apple key pressed:
>Apple-Y is « and Apple-X is » (which unfortunately does not work on
>the console), which is great! (Ideally I'd like them swapped, as in
>german they are "reversed" compared to the french/swiss usage)

   This is still the case

> So in conclusion, I like your new layout. It would be great, if you could
> enable an easy possibility to chose between pc-style third level and 
> macintosh third level.

Well, the new one degarded a little, as it swapped the ^/° with the
 key on my german iBook G4 keyboard

I hope this updated info helps.

Greetings

Helge

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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Hello Denis,
I used xkb-data_0.8-10exp1_all.deb from your tmp directory as described in
your e-mail. First, while everybody in this thread seems to know all the 
details about keyboard mapping, I am not so deep into the details. In would
be nice, if some more documentation would be available. The current tree 
beneath /home/helge/tmp/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb has quite some files, so it
is a little bit difficult to find everything out.

First, the relevant part of my xorg.conf:
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier  "Laptop Keyboard"
#   Driver  "keyboard"
Driver  "kbd"
#   Option "Protocol"   "Standard"
Option "AutoRepeat" "250 30"
#   Option "LeftAlt""Meta"
#   Option "RightCtl"   "Control"
Option "XkbModel"  "macintosh"
#   Option "XkbLayout" "de2"
Option "XkbLayout" "de"
Option "XkbVariant""nodeadkeys"
#   Option "XKbOptions" "nodeadkeys"
Option "XKbOptions" "lv3:lwin_switch"
EndSection

The "XKbOptions" line should be boldly mentioned. I just added it during
the tests, and finally the apple keys behave like AltGr as they did in 
Sarge (I never heard about this before). 

Speaking of Sarge, I already reported my keybord (including picture[1]) with
fixes to Branden back then, see bug #121297 (scan down to find my message,
its dated 15th of November 2004!). To be honest, I stayed with "my"
de2 layout, but I understood that Branden integrated it into XFree back 
then.

I did not do much tests with my current layout, as the main issue now is
to test the new one. 

As I understood the bottom row is the most critical one. So on my german
iBook G4 the layout is as follows:

fn   ctrl alt apple   spaceapple ^   home   pg dn   end
??37  64   115 65   115 108  100 104102
   Control_L ISO_Level3_Shift  ISO_Level3_Shift  Left   DownRight
Alt_LspaceKP_Enter

*109 113   116 65   116 117   97 105103
   Control_L Multi_keyMulti_key  Home   NextEnd
   ISO_Level3_Shift  space Menu

Note, that home is "left" without fn, abd similarly "pg dn" is down, "pg up"
is up (pg up is above pg dn) and "end" is right. With fn pressed the
key numbers are as indicated in row *.

First, after issuing "setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp - :0" I can finally jump
from and to the console again (i.e. X -> console). This is very valuable, as
I work a lot on the console (and the keyboard works perfectly there, 
fortunately). 

Next I compare both the keyboard on the console and in X. Since the third
level is (almost) not printed on the keyboard an I never use X (but normal
keyboards a lot) I'd like to have the third level as on an ordinary keyboard.

All keys which work as expected are not reported.

Number row without any modifier:
   Key between ß and backspace does not respond (expected:')
Number row with Apple key pressed:
   2 and 3 ok; but then mixed up, 
   starting at 5:[]|{}}\
   should be (from 7): {[]}\

Qwertz-row, with Apple key pressed:
   q -> «  instead of @ (not necessary, see Apple-y)
   plus some other characters I've never used on some other letters. (I
   assume, that I don't see the euro sign with Apple-E but ¤ is a font 
   issue)

Asdf-row, with Apple key pressed:
   Some other characters and some double usage (e.g. ß, @, ^, `), now
   suprise (on the console most of these are no special character)

Yxcv-row, with Apple key pressed:
   Apple-Y is « and Apple-X is » (which unfortunately does not work on
   the console), which is great! (Ideally I'd like them swapped, as in
   german they are "reversed" compared to the french/swiss usage)

Some keys also have a new character with Shift-Apple, but I did not check
them systematically.

So in conclusion, I like your new layout. It would be great, if you could
enable an easy possibility to chose between pc-style third level and 
macintosh third level.

And please *document the options*, especially how to get the Apply key
to behave als AltGr which I just discovered in your emails by chance. If there
is such documentation (where?), then I missed it. 

Btw. the "mouse buttons" is enable all the time with the follwing entries in 
/etc/sysctl.conf:
dev/mac_hid/mouse_button_emulation = 1
dev/mac_hid/mouse_button2_keycode=87
dev/mac_hid/mouse_button3_keycode=88

Unfortunately (but OT here, I guess) double clicking marks far less then
on the console, which is quite anoying. I'd appreciate documentation how
to customize this here as well :-))

I attached the results of the keys pressed both in X and on the
console to this email for reference. 

Thanks for your work. If you need additional information please let me
know which.

Greetings

Helge

P.S. For some strange reaso

Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:24:38PM +0200, Yannick Roehlly wrote:
> Denis Barbier wrote:
> 
> > If you set XkbModel to 'ibook', the small Enter key (keycode 108) becomes
> > ISO_Level3_Shift.
> 
> Hi Denis,
> 
> With the new xkb stuff, is it possible to tweak separately de keymaps of the
> ibook keyboard and the external usb keyboard one?

Unfortunately no.  With these experimental changes in XKB, you can use 2
groups and switch between them, but this feature is used to switch between
layouts on the same pĥysical keyboard.  What you want seems to be more
an X issue than an XKB problem.

> >> There's also the problem of the lack of multi-key (for instance if you
> >> want to make a ??.
> > 
> > See compose:* options in /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst
> 
> On a mac keyboard, does the Win-key correspond to the apple key?

Yes.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 10:17:48PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
[...]
> I did a few tests, hoping to not mess up as much as I did yesterday :)
> The most important for me: I was not able to get the swapped keys (^°
> and <>) back to where they should be.

All your problems should have been fixed in xkb-data 0.8-10exp1,
and 0.8-12exp1 is now in experimental, can you please confirm that
everything works fine?
Thanks

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 01:54:30PM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-08-31 at 12:28 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> > * xkb-data 0.8-10exp1 has been uploaded into experimental; it contains
> >   above changes and also:
> >   - debian/patches/macbook_keycodes.diff.diff: Add a new macbook model
> > to swap  and  keycodes for recent Mac boxes.
> 
> So I should begin to use macbook model ?

Yes.

> >   - Fix French modifiers 
> 
> Mhhm what do you mean by "fixed". I still need to provide the
> lv3:lwin_switch option (but maybe it's ok) to have \| etc.. (on the left
> apple key, since I found out what the "rwin/lwin" was about :) )

"Fixed" means that one does not have to edit files by hand or run
xmodmap, everything should work by editing xorg.conf.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Simon Vallet]

Hi,

I just tested xkb-data_0.8-10exp1_all.deb from
http://people.debian.org/barbier/tmp/

extracted to ~/XKB and symlinked /usr/share/lib/X11/xkb to it :
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/XKB/usr/share/X11/xkb$ ls -l /usr/share/X11/xkb
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 31 2006-09-03 20:14 /usr/share/X11/xkb -> 
/home/sjv/XKB/usr/share/X11/xkb

[EMAIL PROTECTED] setxkbmap -rules xorg -model macintosh -layout fr

>   * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)

This a G4 silver

>   * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)

Apple Pro keyboard (cf. geometry/macintosh(applepro))

>   * xorg.conf options

see above

>   * success or failure report?

Nice :-) the 3rd shift level comes from the MacOSX mapping, which
appears to be a good choice, and modifiers work OK.

Some remarks, though :
* F13, F14 and F15 are not mapped (NoSymbol)
* Multimedia keys on the keyboard are not mapped (NoSymbol)
* I noticed that both AltGr and Shift+AltGr map to ISO_Level3_Shift.
This is fine for AltGr, but maybe we could map Shift+AltGr to
Mode_Switch to permit a 4th shift level.

Suggestions to fix this keyboard:
-> add an 'applepro' model to the definition of $mac
-> add an 'applepro macintosh(applepro)' to the model<->keycodes
section and the corresponding section in keycodes/macintosh
-> do what is needed in the corresponding layout (maybe a variant) to
get a fully functional keyboard -- best would be to only have these lines
in xorg.conf :
Option  "XkbRules"  "xorg"
Option  "XkbModel"  "applepro"
Option  "XkbLayout" "fr"

I'll file a bug+patch against xkb-data after some cleanup of a working
configuration I have.

For reference, the modifier keys are organized as follows :

 .--.-.---.--.---.---.--.
 | Ctrl | Alt | Apple | space| Apple | AltGr | Ctrl |
 `--^-^---^--^---^---^--'
 keycodes  3764115  65116   113 109
 name Ctrl_L Alt_L Super_L space  Super_R ISO_Level3_Shift Ctrl_R

As a sidenote, modifier keys from a 12' ibook G4 (running OSX) :

 ..--.---.--.---.--.
 | Fn | Ctrl | Apple | space| Apple | KP_Enter |
 `^--^---^--^---^--^

Simon

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http://www.castalie.org/pubkey.txt
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yannick Roehlly]

Denis Barbier wrote:

> If you set XkbModel to 'ibook', the small Enter key (keycode 108) becomes
> ISO_Level3_Shift.

Hi Denis,

With the new xkb stuff, is it possible to tweak separately de keymaps of the
ibook keyboard and the external usb keyboard one?
 
>> There's also the problem of the lack of multi-key (for instance if you
>> want to make a ??.
> 
> See compose:* options in /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst

On a mac keyboard, does the Win-key correspond to the apple key?

Yannick



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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 12:35:31PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:22:27PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> [...]
> > >   * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)
> >
> > PowerBook G4, [5,8]
> >
> > >   * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)
> >
> > internal keyboard, [DE]
> >
> > I made a picture:
> > http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/keyboard.PBook.g4-5.8.JPG
> > [about 160 KB, and I got an hourly transfer limit of ~4,4 MB .. so you
> > might want being quick if you want to see it .. :)]
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can do nothing with your xmodmap files at the moment, I need
> to know what is broken so that it can get fixed.

Not necessary: I simply try to be as verbose as possible: That's why I
let you know it ... :)

> 
> > Besides: it seems an old annoying issue is still being around here:
> > With your package as, IIRC, with the previous (from about half a year
> > ago or so) xorg/xkb ones 2 keys are swapped here.
> 
> Yes, a new 'macbook' model is introduced in 0.8-10exp1.
> I would like to understand which models have to set XkbModel to macbook
> to determine whether it should replace current 'macintosh' or not.


I did a few tests, hoping to not mess up as much as I did yesterday :)
The most important for me: I was not able to get the swapped keys (^°
and <>) back to where they should be.


Some test:

$ pwd
/home/shorty/downloads
[shorty@ 21:09:14]$ dpkg -x xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb xkb


 cd /home/shorty/downloads/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb
$ pwd 
/home/shorty/downloads/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb

And in this last dir:

*** 1:

setxkbmap -option -model macbook -layout de -variant nodeadkeys -print | 
xkbcomp - :0
does not help: Console switch via --F(X) is possible, but the 
swapped keys
   ("less than" "greater than" <> and the key with that
   signs "^°") are still swapped.
   SHIFT key working.
   Arrow keys, right bottom side, working



*** 2:

setxkbmap -option -model macintosh -layout de -variant nodeadkeys -print | 
xkbcomp - :0
breaks a lot: shift key broken: that is, no captitals
  Console switch via --F(X) impossible
  Arrow keys, right bottom side, not working
  ("less than" "greater than" <> and the key with that signs "^°") 
are still swapped -- worse:
  i only have half of what these keys before had, because the shift 
key,s gone


getting curious:

*** 3:

setxkbmap -option -model pc105 -layout de -variant nodeadkeys -print | xkbcomp 
- :0

   Console switch via --F(X) possible
   Arrow keys, right bottom side, working
   ("less than" "greater than" <> and the key with that signs "^°") are 
still swapped
   SHIFT key's working 



In all tests: with the empty "-option" I hoped to clear all previous
xkb settings .. I hope this worked as expected.


More tests?

Best Regards
Wolfgang

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http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer

Key ID: E3037113
http://keyserver.mine.nu/pks/lookup?search=0xE3037113&fingerprint=on


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:24:02AM +0200, Denis Barbier a écrit :

> But Macintosh keyboards have not been updated, mainly because
> upstream does not have such hardware, and also because people
> seem to want different default options for their special keys.

Hi,

I am also willing to help, but I think that my understanding of how
things work is a bit too low for the moment (maybe it will improve this
weekend).

Actually, I started to investigate the question a bit before, and as a
first step, I noted the keycodes emitted by my keyboard:

http://charles.plessy.org/mac/A1048.html

It is the default japanese keyboard sold with the G5 iMac I bought
almost two years ago. (Model A1048)

If somebody could explain me how to turn this into something useful,
I'll be happy to contribute.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
http://charles.plessy.org
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Thu, 2006-08-31 at 12:28 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> * xkb-data 0.8-10exp1 has been uploaded into experimental; it contains
>   above changes and also:
>   - debian/patches/macbook_keycodes.diff.diff: Add a new macbook model
> to swap  and  keycodes for recent Mac boxes.

So I should begin to use macbook model ?

>   - Fix French modifiers 

Mhhm what do you mean by "fixed". I still need to provide the
lv3:lwin_switch option (but maybe it's ok) to have \| etc.. (on the left
apple key, since I found out what the "rwin/lwin" was about :) )
-- 
Yves-Alexis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Ben Mueller]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:55:18PM +0200, Ben Mueller wrote:
> > except KP_Equal. The key on my PowerBook5,2 (15'' with ADB keyboard) emits
> > keycode 157 while keycodes/xfree86 maps  to keycode 126. (I would
> > like to file a bug about this, but I don't know against which package.)
> 
> Have a look at /usr/share/X11/xkb/keycodes/macintosh:
>   default xkb_keycodes "macintosh" {
>  include "xfree86"
> 
>   = 182;
>   = 183;
>   = 184;
>   = 157;
>   };
> and you will see why your KP_Equal key has the wrong keycode ;)

Since most keycodes on macintosh and on pc are equal, I thought it would 
be worth changing the x-server or the linux-kernel (or whichever package 
is responsible) to make macintosh keyboards emit the _right_ keycodes.

> > But perhaps symbols/macintosh_vndr/de will be dropped anyway in favour of
> > the macintosh variants in symbols/de?
> 
> See above, I believe that this is not a good idea, but time will tell.

I think these are independent issues. As far as I understand this, you can 
also tell rules/base to combine keycodes "macintosh" with symbols 
"pc(pc105)+de(mac_nodeadkeys)" or some other mac variants to national 
symbol files.

Best regards

  Ben


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 08:23:13PM +0200, Yannick Roehlly wrote:
[...]
> On my ibook, it's a little different: the two apple keys have the same 115
> keycode (but my apple usb keyboard makes the difference between the two 115
> and 116 apple keys.
>
> The fn key gives access to additional keycodes:
> Here are my keycodes:
>
>  .--.-.--.--.---..
>  | Ctrl | Alt | Apple | space| Apple | ^ |
>  `--^-^--^--^---^'
> keycodes3764115  65115108
> name  Ctrl_L Alt_L Super_L space  Super_L KP_Enter
> +fn keycodes   109   113116116117
> +fn name  Ctrl_R  ISO_ Super_RSuper_R Menu
>   Level3_Shift
>
> > I tried ISO_Level3_Shift and it acts as the Mode_Switch I had with my
> > previous keymap. That is, I can access |\ etc... with this key + shift.
>
> Here it's possible with the usb keyboard but is very weird with the ibook
> keyboard. For instance, if I want to make a | (shit + ISO_Level3_Shift + l)
> I have to do "fn + shift + alt" release "fn + shit" while maintaining alt
> and do a l. ;-)

If you set XkbModel to 'ibook', the small Enter key (keycode 108) becomes
ISO_Level3_Shift.

> There's also the problem of the lack of multi-key (for instance if you want
> to make a �.

See compose:* options in /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.lst

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:22:27PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
[...]
> >   * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)
>
> PowerBook G4, [5,8]
>
> >   * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)
>
> internal keyboard, [DE]
>
> I made a picture:
> http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/keyboard.PBook.g4-5.8.JPG
> [about 160 KB, and I got an hourly transfer limit of ~4,4 MB .. so you
> might want being quick if you want to see it .. :)]

Yeah, having a picture is really nice, thanks.
I forgot to mention that the layout of the bottom row (the one with the
space bar) is also pretty important.  For instance, my keyboard at
work is (as already shown in Yves-Alexis mail)
.--.--.-.--.---.--.--.
| Ctrl | Logo | Alt | space| AltGr | Menu | Ctrl |
`--^--^-^--^---^--^--'
 keycodes  3711564  65113 117109

and my own laptop is
   .--..--.-.--.---.--.
   | Ctrl | Fn | Logo | Alt | space| AltGr | Ctrl |
   `--^^--^-^--^---^--'
 keycodes 37   N/A115   64 65 113 109

> Section "InputDevice"
>   Identifier  "Generic Keyboard"
>   Driver  "kbd"
>   Option  "CoreKeyboard"
>   Option  "XkbRules"  "xorg"
>   Option  "XkbModel"  "macintosh"
>   Option  "XkbLayout" "de"
> # Option  "XkbVariant""nodeadkeys"
>   Option  "XkbOptions""lv3:lwin_switch"
> EndSection
>
> Please note the comment at the "XkbVariant" line ..

Right, nodeadkeys Mac variants were broken, this has been fixed
in 0.8-10 and 0.8-10exp1 packages just uploaded.

[...]
> So I don't remember exactly how the keyboard worked without
> ~/.xmodmap. But the fact I wrote it could be taken as an indication
> that the ones shipped with the xorg/xkb packages were pretty,
> errr ..., let's say *inconvenient* for me .. :)

Sorry, I can do nothing with your xmodmap files at the moment, I need
to know what is broken so that it can get fixed.

> Besides: it seems an old annoying issue is still being around here:
> With your package as, IIRC, with the previous (from about half a year
> ago or so) xorg/xkb ones 2 keys are swapped here.

Yes, a new 'macbook' model is introduced in 0.8-10exp1.
I would like to understand which models have to set XkbModel to macbook
to determine whether it should replace current 'macintosh' or not.

> You mean /etc/console/boottime.kmap.gz? I don't remember where I found
> it, but I'm rather sure it's not the one as provided by Debian. It's
> here:
> http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/boottime.kmap.gz

Ok, thanks.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:55:18PM +0200, Ben Mueller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm very happy that someone is taking care of the macintosh keyboards!
>
> First I switched to
>   XkbRules:   xorg
>   XkbModel:   pc105
>   XkbLayout:  de
>   XkbVariant: mac_nodeadkeys
>   XkbOptions: lv3:lalt_switch
> which is also provided by xkb-data 0.8-8 in unstable. This is working well
> except KP_Equal. The key on my PowerBook5,2 (15'' with ADB keyboard) emits
> keycode 157 while keycodes/xfree86 maps  to keycode 126. (I would
> like to file a bug about this, but I don't know against which package.)

Have a look at /usr/share/X11/xkb/keycodes/macintosh:
  default xkb_keycodes "macintosh" {
 include "xfree86"

  = 182;
  = 183;
  = 184;
  = 157;
  };
and you will see why your KP_Equal key has the wrong keycode ;)

> Then I tested
>   XkbRules: xorg
>   XkbModel: macintosh
>   XkbLayout:de
>   XkbVariant:   nodeadkeys
>   XkbOptions:   lv3:lalt_switch
> from xkb-data 0.8-8exp1. This time  is working.

Yes, this is indeed what I would have tried myself.

> But I have no shift key anymore. Thus I can't type any symbol from
> level 2 or level 4.  Furthermore I have no ctrl, no command (win key),
> no funcion keys and no navigation (left, right, up, down ...). This is
> no fun ...

There is a bug in rules/base:
 $mac $macvendorlayouts nodeadkeys =
macintosh_vndr/us(extended)+macintosh_vndr/%l%(v)
has to be replaced by
 $mac $macvendorlayouts nodeadkeys =
pc(pc105)+macintosh_vndr/us(extended)+macintosh_vndr/%l%(v)
(ie. 'pc(pc105)+' has to be prepended)
It has been fixed in 0.8-10exp1.

> But perhaps symbols/macintosh_vndr/de will be dropped anyway in favour of
> the macintosh variants in symbols/de?

See above, I believe that this is not a good idea, but time will tell.

> Further I saw that the keypad section in symbols/macintosh_vndr/us is
> different to symbols/pc. In macintosh_vndr/us the numbers are on level 1
> in contrast to level 2 in symbols/pc. So by using include "keypad(comma)"
> in macintosh_vndr/{ch,de,se} you're hitting again bug #328125 because
> symbols/keypad is used to work together with symbols/pc.

Absolutely, but then you should have read upstream comments at
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6671
more carefully if you did not want to go that way ;)
BTW #328125 is fixed in 0.8-10, though I did not notice that ch is
bogus too, will fix it in 0.8-11.
Thanks for your help.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 04:05:39PM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 15:50 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> > Salut,
>
> Sorry for non french readers, the original mail is in french.

Yes, I thought that you would not quote me ;)
And now I hava network problems at home, so I will reply to the list
via a webmail, sorry for breaking threads :(

Executive summary:
* xkb-data 0.8-9 has been uploaded into unstable with the following
  changes for Mac users:
  - debian/patches/mac_swap_kp.diff: New patch to swap KP_Delete and
KP_Separator on Mac keyboards.
  - debian/patches/mac_nodeadkeys.diff:  New patch to fix nodeadkeys
variants, they were badly broken.
  and 0.8-10 shortly followed to really fix Mac nodeadkeys variants.
  (It does not appear at http://incoming.debian.org/ though, I hope
  it will find its way there)
* xkb-data 0.8-10exp1 has been uploaded into experimental; it contains
  above changes and also:
  - debian/patches/macbook_keycodes.diff.diff: Add a new macbook model
to swap  and  keycodes for recent Mac boxes.
  - Fix French modifiers
The latter package is available at http://people.debian.org/~barbier/tmp/
I would like to know which models have to set XkbModel to "macbook",
any information is welcome.

Back to your mail.
> > e tes mails sur debian-powerpc, je me suis rendu compte de quelques
> > oublis. Tout d'abord, j'ai merd symbols/macintosh_vndr/fr il faut enlever
> > les lignes comprises entre  Begin modifier mappings  et  End modifier
> > mappings
>
> Ok, I removed theses lines (commenting with // is ok ?)

Yes.

> > Pour les modifiers, j'ai besoin de savoir si  -option lv3:rwin_switch
> > sur la ligne de commande de setxkbmap (aprs avoir fait la correction
> > ci-dessus) rsoud tes problmes.
>
> No, it doesnt fix the problem, I still don't have backslash, pipe etc
> with the left alt/apple key.

If you want the left key, you can pass
   -option lv3:lwin_switch
or
   -option lv3:lalt_switch

[...]
> I tried ISO_Level3_Shift and it acts as the Mode_Switch I had with my
> previous keymap. That is, I can access |\ etc... with this key + shift.
> This modifier works, and I guess it works like on pc keyboards with
> Altgr key. But I don't think it should be on right apple key, because in
> OSX it's the left apple key wich does this (or maybe both, but I guess
> people use the left one more often, and it can be useful to have one
> more modifier key)

At the moment I focus on fixing bugs so that users can select their
keyboard layout by editing xorg.conf instead of writing their own
xmodmap file.

In another message, you wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 16:05 +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> > keycodes  3764115  65116108
> > nameCtrl_L Alt_L Super_L space ISO_Level3_Shift KP_Enter
>
> And as a side note, Super_L can't be binded to shortcuts in gtk (afaik),

It can, or at least if it cannot, Mac keyboards will be as broken as PC
keyboards ;)

> so I guess mode_switch was better (but I don't really know modifiers
> magic)

Well, let's first fix remaining bugs, we will then discuss advantages
of both methods

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Ben Mueller]

OK, I did another test with xkb-data 0.8-9exp1.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Ben Mueller wrote:

> First I switched to 
>   XkbRules:   xorg
>   XkbModel:   pc105
>   XkbLayout:  de
>   XkbVariant: mac_nodeadkeys
>   XkbOptions: lv3:lalt_switch
> which is also provided by xkb-data 0.8-8 in unstable. This is working well
> except KP_Equal.

This is the same situation (as expected).

> Then I tested
>   XkbRules: xorg
>   XkbModel: macintosh
>   XkbLayout:de
>   XkbVariant:   nodeadkeys
>   XkbOptions:   lv3:lalt_switch

And this is now working too.
So actually I can choose between 2 different useful macintosh keymaps.

Thanks for your great work.

  Ben


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yannick Roehlly]

Hi,

Here's another French with an ibook in love with Debian. ;-)

Denis, I tried your xkb-data package with the modifications done to
symbols/macintosh_vndr/fr for the modifiers.

The xorg.conf options are :

Option  "XkbRules"  "xorg"
Option  "XkbModel"  "macintosh"
Option  "XkbLayout" "fr

Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:

> There is a fn key at the far left of the keyboard which I don't coun't
> because it's managed in kernel. Beside, there are:
> 
>.--.-.--.--.---..
>| Ctrl | Alt | Apple | space| Apple | ^ |
>`--^-^--^--^---^'
> keycodes  3764115  65116108
> nameCtrl_L Alt_L Super_L space ISO_Level3_Shift KP_Enter

On my ibook, it's a little different: the two apple keys have the same 115
keycode (but my apple usb keyboard makes the difference between the two 115
and 116 apple keys.

The fn key gives access to additional keycodes:
Here are my keycodes:

 .--.-.--.--.---..
 | Ctrl | Alt | Apple | space| Apple | ^ |
 `--^-^--^--^---^'
keycodes3764115  65115108
name  Ctrl_L Alt_L Super_L space  Super_L KP_Enter
+fn keycodes   109   113116116117
+fn name  Ctrl_R  ISO_ Super_RSuper_R Menu
  Level3_Shift

> I tried ISO_Level3_Shift and it acts as the Mode_Switch I had with my
> previous keymap. That is, I can access |\ etc... with this key + shift.

Here it's possible with the usb keyboard but is very weird with the ibook
keyboard. For instance, if I want to make a | (shit + ISO_Level3_Shift + l)
I have to do "fn + shift + alt" release "fn + shit" while maintaining alt
and do a l. ;-)

There's also the problem of the lack of multi-key (for instance if you want
to make a ó).

I'm not used to xkb (I know only a little of xmodmap) so I don't know the
use of Super_L and Super_R but I would suggest to assign the ibook apple key
(keycode 115) to ISO_Level3_Shift and the fn + apple key (keycode 116) to
multi-key.

Note that on a apple usb keyboard that would assign the left apple key (115)
to ISO_Level3_Shift and the right apple key (116) to multi-key.

On the apple usb keyboard, the right alt key (113) is yet assigned to
ISO_Level3_Shift so it could be assigned to Alt_R which would be consistent
with the ibook keyboard: alt=Alt_L fn+alt=Alt_R (like ctrt=Ctrl_L and
fn+ctrl=Ctrl_R).

By the way, if someone can indicate me a document explaining the use of
Ctrl_R, Alt_R, Super_L and Super_R. And also, is there a use for mod_switch
with xkb?

Yannick


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:22:27PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:

> 
> 
> The xkbcomp output when (hopefully) .xmodmap is loaded:
> 
> Please note that Geocities does not seem to accept an .xkb extension
> when uploading files to my homepage. So I renamed it to a .txt file:
> 
> $ xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb
> $ mv server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb server-0.with.my.xmod
> map.loaded.xkb.txt
> `server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb' -> 
> `server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb.tx
> t'
> 
> It's here:
> 
> 


Better use that one, because the latter differs from that one:




Here's how I made this last one:


$ xmodmap .xmodmap 
$ xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb 
$ cp server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb 
server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb.txt
cp: overwrite `server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb.txt'? y
`server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb' -> 
`server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.2ndtry.xkb.txt'

Sorry

Best Regards
Wolfgang 
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Key ID: E3037113
http://keyserver.mine.nu/pks/lookup?search=0xE3037113&fingerprint=on


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Ben Mueller]

Hi,

I'm very happy that someone is taking care of the macintosh keyboards!

First I switched to 
  XkbRules: xorg
  XkbModel: pc105
  XkbLayout:de
  XkbVariant:   mac_nodeadkeys
  XkbOptions:   lv3:lalt_switch
which is also provided by xkb-data 0.8-8 in unstable. This is working well
except KP_Equal. The key on my PowerBook5,2 (15'' with ADB keyboard) emits 
keycode 157 while keycodes/xfree86 maps  to keycode 126. (I would 
like to file a bug about this, but I don't know against which package.)

Then I tested
  XkbRules: xorg
  XkbModel: macintosh
  XkbLayout:de
  XkbVariant:   nodeadkeys
  XkbOptions:   lv3:lalt_switch
from xkb-data 0.8-8exp1. This time  is working. But I have no shift 
key anymore. Thus I can't type any symbol from level 2 or level 4. 
Furthermore I have no ctrl, no command (win key), no funcion keys and no 
navigation (left, right, up, down ...). This is no fun ...

But perhaps symbols/macintosh_vndr/de will be dropped anyway in favour of 
the macintosh variants in symbols/de?

Further I saw that the keypad section in symbols/macintosh_vndr/us is 
different to symbols/pc. In macintosh_vndr/us the numbers are on level 1 
in contrast to level 2 in symbols/pc. So by using include "keypad(comma)" 
in macintosh_vndr/{ch,de,se} you're hitting again bug #328125 because 
symbols/keypad is used to work together with symbols/pc.

Best regards

  Ben


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 06:22:27PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> Hi Denis
> 
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:48:15PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> > 
> > 5. What informations should be reported?
> >=
> > 

> 
> And here's the one made with the settings as shipped with  
> xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb (same renaming procedure as above):
> 
> 


I'm not sure any more whether I really loaded the settings as shipped
with your new package: Just in case, I repeat the procedure for it:

cd downloads/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb
setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp - :0
setxkbmap -model macintosh -layout de -print | xkbcomp - :0
xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.2nd.try.loaded.xkb

mv server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.2nd.try.loaded.xkb 
server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.2nd.try.loaded.xkb.txt
`server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.2nd.try.loaded.xkb' -> 
`server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.2nd.try.loaded.xkb.txt'

The new file is here:


My apologies

Wolfgang

> 
> The latter file should be the result of this:
> 
> $ setxkbmap -model macintosh -layout de -print | xkbcomp - :0
> 
> $ xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb
> $ mv server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb server-0.with.
> xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb.txt
> `server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb' -> 
> `server-0.with.xkb-data-settings
> .loaded.xkb.txt'
> $
> 



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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

Hi Denis

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:48:15PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> 
> 5. What informations should be reported?
>=
> 
> Everything ;)
> Basically I have to make sure that there are no regressions before
> this package can be uploaded into unstable.  This means that if a
> layout did work previously, it should also work with this package.
> If a layout was broken, well I guess that there is no harm fixing
> it.  As I know nothing about Mac keyboards, I will need all
> informations you can provide:
>   * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)

PowerBook G4, [5,8]

>   * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)

internal keyboard, [DE]

I made a picture:
http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/keyboard.PBook.g4-5.8.JPG
[about 160 KB, and I got an hourly transfer limit of ~4,4 MB .. so you 
might want being quick if you want to see it .. :)]

>   * xorg.conf options



Section "InputDevice"
Identifier  "Generic Keyboard"
Driver  "kbd"
Option  "CoreKeyboard"
Option  "XkbRules"  "xorg"
Option  "XkbModel"  "macintosh"
Option  "XkbLayout" "de"
#   Option  "XkbVariant""nodeadkeys"
Option  "XkbOptions""lv3:lwin_switch"
EndSection


Please note the comment at the "XkbVariant" line ..



>   * success or failure report?

I'm not sure:

Usually I use my own ~/.xmodmap which is getting loaded when logging
into my user X (KDM/KDE) - it's here:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/xmodmap.g4-5.8.txt


The latter is on the brink of being perfect for me. - Except the fact
I never could manage even with that file to set some mouse keys with
entries (among others) like this in sysctrl.conf - neither on console
nor on X: 


dev/mac_hid/mouse_button_emulation = 1
dev/mac_hid/mouse_button2_keycode = 100
dev/mac_hid/mouse_button3_keycode = 126

But the latter might be offtopic ... 


So I don't remember exactly how the keyboard worked without
~/.xmodmap. But the fact I wrote it could be taken as an indication
that the ones shipped with the xorg/xkb packages were pretty, 
errr ..., let's say *inconvenient* for me .. :)

Besides: it seems an old annoying issue is still being around here:
With your package as, IIRC, with the previous (from about half a year
ago or so) xorg/xkb ones 2 keys are
swapped here:
the key above the TAB key, that is the one with a sign which 'xev'
(with my ~/xmodmap loaded) fully rightly sees as a

" keycode 94 (keysym 0x5e, asciicircum)" 

key and the key right of the left Shift key, which again with my
~/.xmodmap loaded is seen by xev correctly as "less" and "greater" 
[< and >] keys:

keycode 49 (keysym 0x3c, less)
keycode 49 (keysym 0x3e, greater)



The xkbcomp output when (hopefully) .xmodmap is loaded:

Please note that Geocities does not seem to accept an .xkb extension
when uploading files to my homepage. So I renamed it to a .txt file:

$ xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb
$ mv server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb server-0.with.my.xmod
map.loaded.xkb.txt
`server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb' -> `server-0.with.my.xmodmap.loaded.xkb.tx
t'

It's here:


And here's the one made with the settings as shipped with  
xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb (same renaming procedure as above):



The latter file should be the result of this:

$ setxkbmap -model macintosh -layout de -print | xkbcomp - :0

$ xkbcomp :0 -o server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb
$ mv server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb server-0.with.
xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb.txt
`server-0.with.xkb-data-settings.loaded.xkb' -> `server-0.with.xkb-data-settings
.loaded.xkb.txt'
$


>   * If possible, which console keymap you normally use


You mean /etc/console/boottime.kmap.gz? I don't remember where I found
it, but I'm rather sure it's not the one as provided by Debian. It's
here:
http://www.geocities.com/wolfgangpfeiffer/boottime.kmap.gz

More? Please let me know .. 

Best Regards
Wolfgang


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 16:05 +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> keycodes  3764115  65116108
> nameCtrl_L Alt_L Super_L space ISO_Level3_Shift KP_Enter 

And as a side note, Super_L can't be binded to shortcuts in gtk (afaik),
so I guess mode_switch was better (but I don't really know modifiers
magic)


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 15:50 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> Salut,

Sorry for non french readers, the original mail is in french.
> 
> en lisant tes mails sur debian-powerpc, je me suis rendu compte de quelques
> oublis. Tout d'abord, j'ai merd symbols/macintosh_vndr/fr il faut enlever
> les lignes comprises entre  Begin modifier mappings  et  End modifier
> mappings 

Ok, I removed theses lines (commenting with // is ok ?)

> Pour les modifiers, j'ai besoin de savoir si  -option lv3:rwin_switch 
> sur la ligne de commande de setxkbmap (aprs avoir fait la correction
> ci-dessus) rsoud tes problmes. 

No, it doesnt fix the problem, I still don't have backslash, pipe etc
with the left alt/apple key.

> Il faudrait aussi que je sache quelles
> touches sont disponibles sur ton clavier pour ces modifiers, c'est--dire
> quelles sont les touches qui sont sur la ligne de la barre d'espace, avec
> leur keycode.
> Par exemple le clavier Dell UK sur lequel je tape actuellement ressemble 
>.--.--.-.--.---.--.--.
>| Ctrl | Logo | Alt | space| AltGr | Menu | Ctrl |
>`--^--^-^--^---^--^--'
> keycodes  3711564  65113 117109

There is a fn key at the far left of the keyboard which I don't coun't
because it's managed in kernel. Beside, there are:

   .--.-.--.--.---..
   | Ctrl | Alt | Apple | space| Apple | ^ |
   `--^-^--^--^---^'
keycodes  3764115  65116108
nameCtrl_L Alt_L Super_L space ISO_Level3_Shift KP_Enter

I tried ISO_Level3_Shift and it acts as the Mode_Switch I had with my
previous keymap. That is, I can access |\ etc... with this key + shift.
This modifier works, and I guess it works like on pc keyboards with
Altgr key. But I don't think it should be on right apple key, because in
OSX it's the left apple key wich does this (or maybe both, but I guess
people use the left one more often, and it can be useful to have one
more modifier key)

> Afin de gagner du temps, je t'envoie ce mail en priv. Je suis au boulot
> et ne peux pas lire les mails qui sont envoys  mon adresse, mais tu
> peux envoyer ces infos supplmentaires sur la liste. 

Done, and sorry for list disturbance :)

Regards,
-- 
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 22:48 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> 5. What informations should be reported?
>=
> 
> Everything ;)
> Basically I have to make sure that there are no regressions before
> this package can be uploaded into unstable.  This means that if a
> layout did work previously, it should also work with this package.
> If a layout was broken, well I guess that there is no harm fixing
> it.  As I know nothing about Mac keyboards, I will need all
> informations you can provide:
>   * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)

Powerbook G4 1,5Ghz (Powerbook 5,6)

>   * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)

Internal mac keyboard, french version

>   * xorg.conf options
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier  "Generic Keyboard"
Driver  "kbd"
Option  "CoreKeyboard"
Option  "XkbRules"  "xorg"
Option  "XkbModel"  "macintosh"
Option  "XkbLayout" "fr"
EndSection



>   * success or failure report?

'success' but I don't have modifier keys anymore (not backslash, not
pipe...) and <> / #@ are inverted.

>   * If possible, which console keymap you normally use

fr personal one

>   * If some keys have a different definition, please run
>   xkbcomp :0
> after running the setxkbmap command above, and send the generated
> server-0.xkb file with explanations of these differences. 

I'll send this one later when i'll be using my "own" keymap.

Regards,

-- 
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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 11:16:18PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
[...]
> > This option should also work for any Debian-based distribution with
> > X.Org 7.0.
> 
> So, folk running sarge will not be able to make this experiment, right ? 

IIRC I had problems with X.Org releases prior to 7.0, but I do not know
whether it was due to some error on my side or if there is indeed an
incompatibility.  So I would say that people running sarge can try; I
had bad experiences, but maybe this is doable, I do not know exactly.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Sven Luther]

Thanks for this more detailed information.

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:48:15PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> 3. How to install it?
>==
> 
> Sid users can install it directly.  As it has not been tested at all,
> your X server may hang up or your keyboard may be fully broken, so do
> not proceed like this unless you know what you are doing ;)
> 
> A less disruptive way is to unpack this package into a temporary
> directory, and call setxkbmap from this directory:
>  $ dpkg -x xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb /tmp/xkb
>  $ cd /tmp/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb
>  $ setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp - :0
> (warnings can be ignored)
> This option should also work for any Debian-based distribution with
> X.Org 7.0.

So, folk running sarge will not be able to make this experiment, right ? 

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 02:03:33AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
[...]
> Mmm, altough i have only a US keyboard powerbook, i would willingly test this,
> as this is a major problematic point for mac keyboards.
> 
> I have two questions though : 
> 
>   1) how do you detect you have a pmac keyboard, and not something else ?
>   There are powerpc boxes with normal pc keyboards around (in fact, all still
>   selling powerpc hardware is now of this kind, since apple left).
>
>   2) how do we test this, install the xkb-data package, and verify all keys
>   still work ? Is there anything more to do ? 

Ok, my previous mail missed all the needed informations, let's try again.

1. Where to get it?
   

xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb will be available at
  http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/x/xkeyboard-config/
and on mirrors in few hours, but it can be found here now:
  http://people.debian.org/~barbier/tmp/

2. What does it contain?
   =

Its purpose is to provide XKB data files so that users can customize
their keyboards via xorg.conf or by calling setxkbmap/xkbcomp.
There is no autodetection, and even more, no processing when this
package is installed/removed. 

PC layouts have been redesigned in XFree86 to be much more modular,
but Mac keyboards have not been modified then.  I am trying to perform
the same changes so that Mac keyboards can be defined with the same
flexibility.  In short, users should be able to put the model, layout,
variant and options they want in their xorg.conf, instead of keeping
their own copy of their preferred XKB file as seems to be the case now.

3. How to install it?
   ==

Sid users can install it directly.  As it has not been tested at all,
your X server may hang up or your keyboard may be fully broken, so do
not proceed like this unless you know what you are doing ;)

A less disruptive way is to unpack this package into a temporary
directory, and call setxkbmap from this directory:
 $ dpkg -x xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb /tmp/xkb
 $ cd /tmp/xkb/usr/share/X11/xkb
 $ setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp - :0
(warnings can be ignored)
This option should also work for any Debian-based distribution with
X.Org 7.0.

4. How to test it?
   ===

There are two different cases:
  * If you use unmodified XKB files, you can run the command above,
it will load the new XKB definitions for your layout. Press
each key to see if their definition has changed, and also with
modifiers (in particular for non-US keyboards).
  * If you use your own modified XKB file, there is not much to
test.  But you can load your layout and see if this version
fixes the bugs which prevented you from using official files,
for instance:
 $ setxkbmap -model macintosh -layout fr -print | xkbcomp - :0
If your keyboard seems to work as expected, try different software
and check that keyboard shortcuts work as usual.

5. What informations should be reported?
   =

Everything ;)
Basically I have to make sure that there are no regressions before
this package can be uploaded into unstable.  This means that if a
layout did work previously, it should also work with this package.
If a layout was broken, well I guess that there is no harm fixing
it.  As I know nothing about Mac keyboards, I will need all
informations you can provide:
  * Mac model (ibook, g4, g5, etc)
  * Mac keyboard (USB or not, country variant)
  * xorg.conf options
  * success or failure report?
  * If possible, which console keymap you normally use
  * If some keys have a different definition, please run
  xkbcomp :0
after running the setxkbmap command above, and send the generated
server-0.xkb file with explanations of these differences.

I temporarily subscribe to debian-powerpc, so feel free to send
successful reports there, and please file bug reports against xkb-data
(with Tag: experimental) upon failure.
Thanks.

Denis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Simon Vallet]

Hi,

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:24:02 +0200
Denis Barbier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I just uploaded xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb into experimental to
> try to fix this mess.  Unfortunately I also have no Mac keyboard,
> so I could not test it at all and need your help to find and fix
> bugs.  When everything is in good shape, I will forward these
> patches to upstream.  

I'll try to find some time to test these as well -- I'm also using 
my own xkb setup, and am getting a bit tired of reconfiguring it after 
each Xorg update.

Xorg/Xfree Macintosh layouts -- at least the french ones -- have been
broken for a long time. This will be a welcomed upload :-)

Simon

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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 01:24 +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> 
> In this version, Macintosh layouts are modified like PC ones,
> 3rd and 4th levels are kept in the 1st group instead of belonging
> to a 2nd group.  You may need additional options (see for instance
> /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/xorg.lst) to fit your needs.
> Please test and file bug reports against xkb-data, I really need
> your help to fix bugs and thus have a chance to upload into unstable. 

I'll try to test those, when I have time. Currently I use my own
macintosh_vndr/fr because the one there doesnt work with french keyboard
from powerbook 5,6 (@/# and  are inverted, for example). If you want
I can provide it.
-- 
Yves-Alexis


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

Hi Denis

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:24:02AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> PC keyboards have been redesigned in Xfree86 4.3 to allow loading
> several layouts (for instance us+ru+fr); in xkeyboard-config, all
> previous PC layouts have been dropped and replaced by these new
> layouts.
> But Macintosh keyboards have not been updated, mainly because
> upstream does not have such hardware, and also because people
> seem to want different default options for their special keys.
> 
> I just uploaded xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb into experimental [ .. ]

I didn't find it:

http://packages.debian.org/experimental/x11/

or anywhere else ...

Also: I never, IIRC, played with xkb in the last years. What I do is
simply load my edited version of ~/.xmodmap. 

Before testing your package I'd like to know what previous versions of
xkb files I need to back up to make sure I don't get locked out of X
because I cannot type a correct passwd any more to get logged in .. :)

I'm on a Powerbook5,8 -- with a qwertz (DE) keyboard.

Thanks in anticipation, and for all of your work.

Best Regards
Wolfgang

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http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer

Key ID: E3037113
http://keyserver.mine.nu/pks/lookup?search=0xE3037113&fingerprint=on


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Gabriel Paubert]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:24:02AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> PC keyboards have been redesigned in Xfree86 4.3 to allow loading
> several layouts (for instance us+ru+fr); in xkeyboard-config, all
> previous PC layouts have been dropped and replaced by these new
> layouts.
> But Macintosh keyboards have not been updated, mainly because
> upstream does not have such hardware, and also because people
> seem to want different default options for their special keys.

Another point, the es layout for Macintosh is actually 
latin american. Apple makes both es and latin american
and they are very different: simply look at the differences
between latam and es in the symbols directory.

Regards,
Gabriel


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Re: xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 01:24:02AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> PC keyboards have been redesigned in Xfree86 4.3 to allow loading
> several layouts (for instance us+ru+fr); in xkeyboard-config, all
> previous PC layouts have been dropped and replaced by these new
> layouts.
> But Macintosh keyboards have not been updated, mainly because
> upstream does not have such hardware, and also because people
> seem to want different default options for their special keys.
> 
> I just uploaded xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb into experimental to
> try to fix this mess.  Unfortunately I also have no Mac keyboard,
> so I could not test it at all and need your help to find and fix
> bugs.  When everything is in good shape, I will forward these
> patches to upstream.  
> 
> In this version, Macintosh layouts are modified like PC ones,
> 3rd and 4th levels are kept in the 1st group instead of belonging
> to a 2nd group.  You may need additional options (see for instance
> /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/xorg.lst) to fit your needs.
> Please test and file bug reports against xkb-data, I really need
> your help to fix bugs and thus have a chance to upload into unstable.

Mmm, altough i have only a US keyboard powerbook, i would willingly test this,
as this is a major problematic point for mac keyboards.

I have two questions though : 

  1) how do you detect you have a pmac keyboard, and not something else ?
  There are powerpc boxes with normal pc keyboards around (in fact, all still
  selling powerpc hardware is now of this kind, since apple left).

  2) how do we test this, install the xkb-data package, and verify all keys
  still work ? Is there anything more to do ? 

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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xkb-data: Help needed for Macintosh keyboards

[Denis Barbier]

Hi folks,

PC keyboards have been redesigned in Xfree86 4.3 to allow loading
several layouts (for instance us+ru+fr); in xkeyboard-config, all
previous PC layouts have been dropped and replaced by these new
layouts.
But Macintosh keyboards have not been updated, mainly because
upstream does not have such hardware, and also because people
seem to want different default options for their special keys.

I just uploaded xkb-data_0.8-8exp1_all.deb into experimental to
try to fix this mess.  Unfortunately I also have no Mac keyboard,
so I could not test it at all and need your help to find and fix
bugs.  When everything is in good shape, I will forward these
patches to upstream.  

In this version, Macintosh layouts are modified like PC ones,
3rd and 4th levels are kept in the 1st group instead of belonging
to a 2nd group.  You may need additional options (see for instance
/usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/xorg.lst) to fit your needs.
Please test and file bug reports against xkb-data, I really need
your help to fix bugs and thus have a chance to upload into unstable.
Thanks.

Denis


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